The wretched agony

[Caroline]

I'd like to draw everyone's attention to this quote:

...while the couple counseller we saw said that while I seem both unable and unwilling to change and she refuses to acknowledge the possibility that she could then she can't help...


You are doing exactly what she's doing. You are unwilling to change, yet you expect her to? That's unfair to her. She may be lame for threatening to commit suicide and you should probably break up anyway, but I think it's lame to criticize her for not changing when you refuse to as well.

This is a problem that I'm having with my boyfriend and with the crossdressing community in general. I, as the GG SO, am expected to just like everything and do all the changing. I am the one that has to do the soul searching. And if I don't? Than I'm an unaccepting bitch and there was nothing ever wrong with the CDer.

I will never think it's okay that the CDer can introduce something so life chaning and relationship changing and I have NO say in it. I just have to like it or leave. He 'can't' change or hold back. I'M the one who has to.

How is that fair?

Sobe

OK, so you've drawn my attention to it, but it doesn't say what you imply it does, nor does it have relevance, per se, for your own relationship with your boyfriend, since Batty's case is not yours and neither has he stated all the details of his circumstances, or of what the various counsellors/therapist said.

Furthermore, no counsellor worth their salt would state baldly that Batty was "...unable and unwilling to change...", since if someone is unable to change then it is meaningless, hurtful and unprofessional to accuse them of being unwilling to do so. What was probably said was that Batty was unable to change certain behaviours (because the counsellor thought that he was unable to do so) and unwilling to change others (which the counsellor thought were within his power) - but one of the most obvious things that Batty could have done is simply to leave his girl-friend and move on with his own life, but he is clearly unwilling to do so.

I suggest, therefore, that trying to make Batty's case fit your own circumstances is misplaced and unfair of you.

From the information given, Batty does not warrant being attacked by you, an attack which is primarily motivated by your own obvious dissatisfaction regarding your own relationship and which has nothing to do with Batty's
circumstances.

Having said that, if you do wish to air your own grievances regarding your own unhappy relationship, please feel free to do so in another thread, but don't subvert Batty's plea for help by doing so here.

I would also add that from the few details you have given regarding your own situation that you do have valid grounds for complaint, and that I would be happy to offer such support as I can should you decide to take the issue further.

[sandra-leigh]

You are doing exactly what she's doing. You are unwilling to change, yet you expect her to? That's unfair to her.

Johnny: "Give me all of the cake!"
Tommy: "No, we should split it, we should each get half of the cake."
Nearby adult: "Tommy, you should compromise! Give Jonny three quarters of the cake!"


Sobe, did you miss Batty's posting that said,

I've barely dressed in the last 4 years after she told me she had a problem with it. I tried giving it up, it didn't work.

It's not like Batty is lounging around the house in a too-short miniskirt and a tube top, a beer and a cigarette and a belly rolling down: Batty has put a lot of effort into this, but it is too strong for Batty to overcome. Batty isn't self-indulgently choosing to be this way.

I haven't followed your posts, Sobe, nor (that I know of) read anything from your SO, so I have no idea to what extent your SO needs dressing in his life. You might perhaps perceive that your SO is being selfish or unreasonable or whatever, but you cannot project from your own situation over to Batty's situation.

[sobe1ove GG]

Am I not entitled to my own opinion? If that's the case, then I was unaware. Should I just stick to the private GG forums, then?

I thought perhaps a view from a GG SO would do this thread some good. After all, we are only hearing Batty's biased side to begin with.

And, heaven forbid I draw upon my own experiences to answer the original post. Am I not allowed to do that as well?

I didn't attack batty. I merely responded to a piece of his post that said he was unwilling to change, yet he expected his SO to. My post WAS relevant to the OP.

Perhaps there should be a disclaimer at the beginning of threads if people only want to hear things that will make them happy?

Sobe

[sandra-leigh]

I didn't attack batty. I merely responded to a piece of his post that said he was unwilling to change, yet he expected his SO to. My post WAS relevant to the OP.

As Batty cannot reasonably say everything relevant in one post, that line needs to be read in connection with Batty's other posting indicating that Batty tried for four years to give up dressing. The implication of that is that Batty was willing to change, but turned out not to be able to.

[sobe1ove GG]

As Batty cannot reasonably say everything relevant in one post, that line needs to be read in connection with Batty's other posting indicating that Batty tried for four years to give up dressing. The implication of that is that Batty was willing to change, but turned out not to be able to.

I concede that point.

[sandra-leigh]

I thought perhaps a view from a GG SO would do this thread some good. After all, we are only hearing Batty's biased side to begin with.

Sobe, I've "been there, done that, got the emotional scars" (except my situation had nothing to do with dressing, as I wasn't CD then.) My personal assessment is that what Batty has written is quite consistant with a situation such as Batty describes, that the little details here and there tell of authenticity rather than of invention. I believe the situation is substantially as Batty has presented it. My ex-GF did attempt suicide at least four times in the years after we broke up (though not because of the breakup; she'd already moved on to someone else.) Thus, Batty's view might perhaps be "biased" in the same sense that anyone's view is "biased", but my own experiences are sufficient to validate the situation to my satisfaction.

The remainder of your points deal substantially with the question of whether someone can change from being a crossdresser "if they really want to", or to "keep peace in the family". The answer for that is going to depend upon the person. For some people, cross-dressing is a light hobby of importance on par with having a yearly Christmas-time fine brandy and cigar; for others, it is much much more strongly rooted. If you look back over some of the threads, you will find In Memorium's for some of the ex-members here who committed suicide because they couldn't be who they needed to be. Now, you might feel that suicide is merely "the ultimate act of selfishness", but the point is that that there are those for whom not being able to dress is a misery of minute-by-minute torture; expecting such people to give up that part of themselves because others can't accept them might be idealistic but it isn't realistic.

[sobe1ove GG]

The remainder of your points deal substantially with the question of whether someone can change from being a crossdresser "if they really want to", or to "keep peace in the family".

Hmm. I don't beleive I said that. In fact, that is not what I believe at all. I don't insist that, for example, my bf stop being a cross dresser. That's what he is and I accept him. There are lot of other kinds of change. I would never want him to stop being himself, but rather, stop doing some of the things he does. That's all. We should both be compromising, not just me. And this isn't just about me and my situation because I see this constantly on these boards. Men aren't willing to compromise and think that SOs are terrible people if they have a problem with it.

Now, we should probably get back to the original post...

[Bella Amazonia]

I don't have the foggiest idea where I would go at this point if I were you.
...
1 - She has threatened suicide. Not that I have personally seen this a lot, but the times I HAVE encountered it, those that threaten to commit suicide rarely make a serious attempt at it.

Kim

Actually, statistics show people who threaten suicide are much more likely to commit suicide than the general population - however; a person might threaten suicide many, many times before actually attempting it, so the likelihood of any one particular suicide threat might not be very high.

Also, women are more likely to make suicide threats and not carry them out, whereas men often will not reach out in any way to seek help and will just make the attempt.

[Ziabotsu]

I've attempted to explain everything to my past girlfriend. But when I blurted out to her 'I'm a tranny-' she ran out and I never saw her again. She blocked my phone number and my email address, and she had a peep hole in her door. GOD. Though women are always different and women sometimes even help the men dress up. If they're one of the women who can't put up with this and cause arguements 24/7, dump her. You'd be better off without her.

[Annette_boy]

Dear batty
If I understand what you have said her behavior is now borderindg on criminal harssment change phone numbers and locks and bail upt for your own sanity even social workers have prejudices and your "lady" is un able to change cut tour losses and move on and if harassment continues get a protective order
Love and hugs
Annette

[Caroline]

Am I not entitled to my own opinion? If that's the case, then I was unaware. Should I just stick to the private GG forums, then?

So now you resort to special pleading, wanting to express your opinion but denying me expressing mine, huh?

I thought perhaps a view from a GG SO would do this thread some good. After all, we are only hearing Batty's biased side to begin with.

Your prejudices are showing, since you accuse Batty of bias without being able to substantiate your claim, whilst exhibiting bias of your own.

And, heaven forbid I draw upon my own experiences to answer the original post. Am I not allowed to do that as well?

More special pleading, since all any of us are doing is drawing upon our own experiences, yet you deny us the right to do so .

I didn't attack batty. I merely responded to a piece of his post that said he was unwilling to change, yet he expected his SO to. My post WAS relevant to the OP.

I must have missed that, so please show us where Batty said that he wasn't willing to change? And don't please reiterate your original comment without reading my response to it.

Perhaps there should be a disclaimer at the beginning of threads if people only want to hear things that will make them happy?

Sobe

Stop being so snide and pathetic. Your accusations are wrong and you know it.

[kerrianna]

I'm so sorry you are going through this Batty.

In the first place if you think she is serious about the OD then maybe you should show her how seriously you care by calling in intervention.

If she's not serious and is using it as a 'bargaining' device that's not fair to you. How are you expected to deal with that in any way? Suicide and suicide threats are beyond the coping skills of most of us.

My first GF was very similar and had me constantly in a state of stress worrying about her safety. Like Tess, I had my emotions just fried by those 5 years, and even though I have affection for her today and we occasionally talk (she's much healthier now) I can't believe looking back at what I put up with in the name of love. I still haven't completely recovered from having my open trust and love burned so deeply and completely in that relationship. Only now do I realize how unfair it was to me. I thought I was being a hero or something, that showing her undying love would save her. Turns out only she could do that.

And that had nothing to do with my CDng which she knew about but at the time that wasn't a big part of my life. (heard later that she considered me somewhat perverted )

Your GF will do what she thinks she has to do for herself. You sound like you've reached that point for yourself. Her threats to keep you together are something you will ultimately have to leave in her hands. Hopefully she won't follow through, but if she does attempt to IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF YOU. It's her solution. If you cave in to her it will never work. The resentment you will hold will destroy your relationship one day. It won't go away because either one of you wants it to.

I wish you guys could talk it out some more, but it sounds like you've gone through the ringer. Too bad the couples counselling didn't work out. It sounds to me like the CDing is just an issue in a broader power struggle.

I wish I could help you more. Unfortunately it just sounds messy and painful and if she's using OD threats as a form of communication, I don't know where you can go from there. You both need to be working TOGETHER on this and it doesn't sound too together right now.

Maybe you should talk to that wonderful social worker of hers and tell them what she threatened to do.

I hope it works out for you and for her too. Take care hon.

[kerrianna]

So now you resort to special pleading, wanting to express your opinion but denying me expressing mine, huh?



Your prejudices are showing, since you accuse Batty of bias without being able to substantiate your claim, whilst exhibiting bias of your own.



More special pleading, since all any of us are doing is drawing upon our own experiences, yet you deny us the right to do so .



I must have missed that, so please show us where Batty said that he wasn't willing to change? And don't please reiterate your original comment without reading my response to it.



Stop being so snide and pathetic. Your accusations are wrong and you know it.

Can you guys please quit this and let this thread be about Batty and her problem right now?

[Fab Karen]

Sorry to hear that. She's got major issues that go way beyond the subject of accepting any part of you being a CD. It sounds like she can't see her actions are pushing you away. She definitely needs professional help. It seems like ending the relationship is probably best for both of you.

[O2B Barbara]

Really a hard place to be for you. Possibly have a joint session with a counseler adn discuss a parting of the ways. May not be the best but at least you have a professional to help you both, as well as a witness to her reaction. At this point you may need to step back and look to your needs, you are no help to her, or yourself, in this condition.

Prayers and hugs,

[EricaCD]

I'm so sorry to hear it has gone so poorly. Our thoughts are with you.

Erica

[Toyah]

To my mind the problem is the conselers all they want is your money have you tried talking to her ???? I mean really talk because if you cannot give up and stop wasting your money on these vultures

[Seville]

An ugly situation, indeed!

Hope everything works out for you, Hun.

[Robin Leigh]

You are doing exactly what she's doing. You are unwilling to change, yet you expect her to? That's unfair to her. She may be lame for threatening to commit suicide and you should probably break up anyway, but I think it's lame to criticize her for not changing when you refuse to as well.

This is a problem that I'm having with my boyfriend and with the crossdressing community in general. I, as the GG SO, am expected to just like everything and do all the changing. I am the one that has to do the soul searching. And if I don't? Than I'm an unaccepting bitch and there was nothing ever wrong with the CDer.

No Sobe, Bats is not doing exactly what his gf is doing. Bats has done everything in his power to please this women, but it hasn't worked. She is quite unwilling to change at all, or to have rational discussion. Her expectations are unrealistic & irrational, IMHO.

I've read most of Bats's posts since he joined the forum, and spent hours last night exchanging PMs, so I think I understand his situation well enough to make these comments on his behalf.

Bats was honest up-front: his gf knew about the CDing from the very beginning. Bats thought he would lose the desire to dress once he was in a stable relationship. But that didn't happen...

His gf will not him let him dress in her presence. But she won't let him dress "behind her back", either. She believes all CDers should be lined up & shot.

She accuses him & a mutual friend of infidelity, even though their liason occurred before Bats & his gf started going out. That's irrational!

I hope this has clarified Bats's situation a little.



Robin

[Kitty Sue]

More issues here than just Cding that's for sure. I wish you and her all the best whether you remain together or not.

[Caroline]

Can you guys please quit this and let this thread be about Batty and her problem right now?

Apologies if I have transgressed in some unknown way, Kerriana, but my original post did deal with Batty and his problems directly. In a nutshell, I believed his best way forward was to come to terms with the fact that there is no future for him and his girlfriend, and that he should move on. I also pointed out that if she carried out her threat to commit suicide, that Batty should not consider himself at fault or feel guilty about it. Admittedly my post was brief, but I saw no point in labouring the issue.

My subsequent post dealt with Batty and his problems indirectly, since it politely refuted the unfounded accusation made by another party who was clearly attacking Batty - and what's more that it was obvious from those attacks that they were promulgated by that poster's own situation and not by what Batty had said or done. In other words, I was defending Batty from an unwarranted criticism and attack, and trying to help him in his difficult situation. Subsequently' that third party posted an attack directed at those of us who had corrected her unsubstantiated attack on Batty, and implied that we were only taking his side rather than hers because we did not want to hear the truth - that the poster maintained that Batty and the rest of us were wrong!

I responded to that because he criticism of Batty is unwarranted, and would only serve to make him feel worse in what is already a difficult situation for him.(Also, the attack on those of us who had not distorted Batty's words, unlike the GG poster in question, merited a response in it's own right). In speaking up on Batty's behalf, I was not only trying to help him, but trying to redress the wrong and misplaced criticism that another person had heaped on him and the rest of us. If you, Kerriana, do not see that as part of dealing with Batty's problem, then your view of the world is somewhat blinkered.

In conclusion, I will reiterate my advice to Batty. Forget all the ins and outs - which we could discuss forever, in any event - move on and leave your girlfriend to her own devices. The separation will be painful, but less so that staying in such an unsatisfactory relationship will prove to be. If your girlfriend commits suicide, then that is her choice - you are not responsible, and neither should you feel guilty (that is, after all, the feelings she is trying to engender in you).

All the best, mate.

[Tammy_j]

Dear Batty, i have no idea what i can say to your situation. i do sincerely think you have come to the right place for advice though. relationships can be so
complicated sometimes (wow that's an understatement). does your gf know that cd is just dressing? i think you should seriously talk to her about the suicide
threat (even though it is emotional blackmail). my warmest regards for both of you.

Love,
Tammy

[TerriM]

I have been married 35 yrs. My wife has known about my femme side 25yrs. She still wants no part of it. It took me a long time to realize that she will never accept that part of me. I know she loves me and I love her. I have tried to find that balance in my life in where both parts of me can exist. Its no easy task. If you two get back together you will have to find your own level of balance.
As far as your girlfriend's suicide threat, I would definetly tell her counsler if she has one or someone who can help her.

Yours Terri

[sandra-leigh]

I've read most of Bats's posts since he joined the forum, and spent hours last night exchanging PMs, so I think I understand his situation well enough to make these comments on his behalf.

Oh my, I didn't recognize the username, but when I went back and looked, I sure recognized one of the prior threads. What Batty has been through before is nearly surreal

[Kimberly]

Sorry to hear about all this. I don't really know what to add. xx