Laughed at AGAIN

[karynspanties]

Ok, here is my .02...my wife worked for Mervyns for 4 years here in Michigan before they closed their doors. If you are a man, not dressed enfemme and by yourself, you have to use the mens fitting room. PERIOD. If you are with your wife and nobody is in the fitting room they would allow it. If you where comepletely enfemme, they could not legally ask you if you were a man or woman, so they would let you in. Think about it, really. What makes you think they would let a man in the womens fitting room when he is dressed as a man? Are you serious? Do you really think you need to ask a stupid question like that? I don't mean to sound like a b*&%^h, but come on poeple, use some common sensce!! If you are in drab and want to try something on...use the mens. What's the big deal? If your in victorias, just by it, if you really want it (you should know your size by now...if not you should not be in victorias) If it does not fit...take it back. Going into a store in drab or partially crossdressed and asking to try something on will get you told no AND it gives crossdressing another black eye. Don't add to the problem.

[sandra-leigh]

Going into a store in drab or partially crossdressed and asking to try something on will get you told no AND it gives crossdressing another black eye. Don't add to the problem.

The situation may be different where you are (I'm technically not in the same country as you, even though your country owns most of ours ), but my experience around here is quite different than that: I get told "Sure, no problem" when I do my cross-shopping in drab. Not always in the closest change room, but close enough.

Around here, they would need a fairly solid reason to say No, and "It might make the other customers unhappy" is not an acceptable legal reason. Dressing rooms are designed to block views inward; if the view is properly blocked, then it doesn't matter if the person in the next stall over is male or female. If the view is not properly blocked, then the store is responsible for improving the blocking rather than discriminate against men. In order for discrimination to be legal here, it must fit to a specific purpose and be the minimum suitable for that purpose -- and it must be made clear.

For example, women-only gyms are allowed -- but the entry signs have to say so. Likewise, in places where nudity might reasonably be encountered, such as a locker-room, it is considered acceptable to restrict the gender. Religious schools are allowed to require that their religion teachers belong to their faith -- but are not allowed to require that their staff that do not teach religion (e.g., math teacher, janitors, financial staff) are of that faith (but they can get away with some morals clauses.)

But a store that is open to the public and which sells to everyone and has no signs indicating that sales are restricted to a certain group is not allowed to discriminate on the existence of change-rooms here. "Reasonable accomodation", sure -- for example, they could have you wait until all the female customers were out of the change room, not letting further female customers in (to prevent indefinite postponement) until you had gone in, done your tests and exited again. You get your chance in turn, the people before you get served first, the people after you have to wait until you are served -- that they could do, but a straight "NO" would not fly legally here for any facility that had not already established to the satisfaction of the government that discrimination was necessary due to the nature of the business.

[karynspanties]

There is no problem with buying things while in drab. It's the trying something on in the fitting rooms. Can you actually think that when in drab or partially enfemme and there are both mens and womens fitting rooms that they will let you in the womens? Again, why would you even think you could do it? Why make a big production out of it? Just take your items and go to the mens! I have done that at Kohl's many times. If I am fully enfemme, I just go into the womens without asking. But in drab....to the mens fitting rooms. I would not even think of asking to go into the womens. It just draws more unwanted attention. And as Forrest Gump would say..."And that's all I got to say about that"

[Caroline]

I don't think PJ is a wimp. It takes a lot of nerve to walk into an uberfeminine enclave like Viccies when dressed en homme and ask to be fitted for a bra, especially for a newbie!

The description was not meant seriously, but a (poor) attempt at putting over a serious point humorously, as was the point about discrimination against CDs not being acceptable.

However, PJ has to learn not to describe his situation as 'embarrassing', as a number of people told him here yesterday, after he recounted his first unfortunate experience, yet he went straight out and did it again.

[Chrysoprase]

and I quote.

"Miss"

sp - yes

me- I have a serious but embarrassing question to ask

SP - Smiling, no problem, what is the question

Me - If I wanted to try on something in the store, would that be allowed?

SP - chuckled

me - I'm serious, I really would like to try on a couple the sale bras

SP - Men are not allowed in the changing room

Me - hmmm bummer

walked out sad and jealous at all the girls diving in to the sale bins and their cute shoes..hehe

You know, she needs her job and probably doesn't have the freedom to let a "man" in the fitting room. Its the harsh reality but she probably didn't. The same situation with you asking the same questions, dressed the same way but with day old chipped nail polish that you "forgot" to remove completly and she might have just thought about it for a bit and sent you in. Its SOMETHING she can use as an arguement/explaination if someone complained, to keep it from escalating to a screaming fit of "I want her fired for letting him in there". There are alot of bored women out there just looking to make someones life worse and the sales woman just didn't want to paint a bullseye on herself (I used to work retail service, its not allways fun).

If it was a slow time without a group of women in the store going though the sale racks she might just have let you in anyways, she most likely doesn't care what you wear and would love the sale and possible repeat sales. Pick your times and how you approach it, some situations just aren't worth the hourly$$/commision. Asking to try on lingerie in a crowded VS while in full masculine dress could seem very pythonesque.

I wouldn't call what she did being laughed at and I'd definatly try going back. buy something and ask if it can be returned, or if it seems the right size. sometimes you have to build a relationship with sales people. It doesn't take long before "oh no, he's back" turns into "oh no you don't thats MY customer, find your own".

[JulieC]

taking this to a district manager since she would freak if she knew I was still dressing

Here's another tactic.

Go in, buy 20-30 bras.

Each day over the next month, return to process a return on each and every one of the bras. Inform them that you would have been happy to try these on in store and avoid all this hassle, but since they refused to let you try them on, you had to do it in this manner.

[Cai]

Here's another tactic.

Go in, buy 20-30 bras.

Each day over the next month, return to process a return on each and every one of the bras. Inform them that you would have been happy to try these on in store and avoid all this hassle, but since they refused to let you try them on, you had to do it in this manner.

This seems harsh, those girls don't get paid enough to deal with stuff like that. Retail work can be pretty awful sometimes, you don't need to make it worse.

[Chrysoprase]

Here's another tactic.

Go in, buy 20-30 bras.

Each day over the next month, return to process a return on each and every one of the bras. Inform them that you would have been happy to try these on in store and avoid all this hassle, but since they refused to let you try them on, you had to do it in this manner.

Thats why retail/customer service isn't fun. Sales clerks on floor get flak and extra work as punishment for policies that they have no power over, but must uphold.

[amasveritas]

I don't know what it's like to be in your position, and I know it must be very hard, and I have no right of speaking... I know it's hard being laughed at, in junior high the other kids bullied me. But that's what's taught me to think "Screw it!". Go ahead, let them laugh, let them not take you seriously - but know what you want, make clear what you want, demand respect in the kindest way possible, and just go for it.

You can walk into that store again, hold your head up high, and ask again - and when they say 'no' again, make sure they know what they're saying. Don't let them scare you off, don't walk away with your head down. When I need balls I think of Cher, she's my hero, and I just imagine what Cher would do. I know, it sounds silly. But it works. "Are you sure you want to say 'no' to a paying costumer?" maybe you can ask them that, or something like that. Just so they know that you are not kidding and seriously interested in trying something on.

And if they say 'no', remember it is their loss. They are the ones losing a costumer and they are the ones living in a narrow-minded, sad little world. Their loss, you'll just go take your credit card somewhere else I hope this helps. Take pride in who you are

[tall_brianna]

And the easiest way to act like you belong is to know that you belong! It's a store, you're there to buy (or to look as sincerely as anyone else looks), you're a human -- who cares what anyone thinks? If you are afraid of people thinking of you as a crossdresser, then other people are going to pick up on that. When you have accepted yourself as a crossdresser, accepted the fact that crossdressing is part of you, then most SAs will find that they have no problems at all helping you and no problems in finding ways to make the situation work for you.

Yoda could not have said it better!

But having been to Ocean City many times, I'm not sure I could manage the confidence to walk into Victoria's Secret there. Kinda po dunk and red neck beach town over run with drunk frat boys every weekend. I seem to remember that Rahobeth Beach was/is very gay friendly.

[Stephenie S]

Ok, here is my .02...my wife worked for Mervyns for 4 years here in Michigan before they closed their doors. If you are a man, not dressed enfemme and by yourself, you have to use the mens fitting room. PERIOD. If you are with your wife and nobody is in the fitting room they would allow it. If you where comepletely enfemme, they could not legally ask you if you were a man or woman, so they would let you in. Think about it, really. What makes you think they would let a man in the womens fitting room when he is dressed as a man? Are you serious? Do you really think you need to ask a stupid question like that? I don't mean to sound like a b*&%^h, but come on poeple, use some common sensce!! If you are in drab and want to try something on...use the mens. What's the big deal? If your in victorias, just by it, if you really want it (you should know your size by now...if not you should not be in victorias) If it does not fit...take it back. Going into a store in drab or partially crossdressed and asking to try something on will get you told no AND it gives crossdressing another black eye. Don't add to the problem.

While I am sure that the above quote is well intentioned, I find it a bit arrogant and domineering. I have been denied the changing room only once in my entire CD shopping career (at Coldwater Creek), and a quick chat with the manager set the SA straight immediately.

I agree that if there is a men's changing room available right there, then what difference does it make? But, I shop almost exclusively in women's clothing stores. After all, I am shopping for women's clothes. There is usually only one set of changing rooms available. How I am dressed (if I am presentable) should make NO difference on how I buy. Trying on clothes is an essential part of buying clothes.

Dressing rooms should be closed in and private. As such, how can it possibly matter what gender I am, or what clothes I have on when I enter the store? And how, pray tell, do you propose I get the SA's opinion on my outfit? Call her into the tiny changing room with me? No thanks, I will come out to walk and observe the outfit in the mirrors and chat with the SA about fit and style, thank you.

Victoria's Secret is one of the CD and TG friendliest stores out there. I have always felt welcome there dressed as a man or woman. It has NEVER made the slightest difference. Most of the shoppers on this forum have had EXACTLY the same experience. I have no idea why one would have difficulty using the dressing rooms at VS unless the SA thought that you were just a pervert using up her valuable time.

Presenting as a well dressed, well behaved, and serious shopper can NEVER give the CD community a "black eye". These kinds of scare tactics, however, can have a very negative effect on the shopping career of a nervous newbie. Let's be a bit more positive here, shall we? Shopping should be and can be fun. A bit expensive at times, but fun. Having the attention of a good SA who knows his/her stuff is a valuable part of the shopping experience. A good SA will have NO problem with which gender you present as when you enter the store.

Stores want your money. Stores do not want to try and dictate what you wear when you shop. Just relax, girls. This whole thing is almost a non-issue. In my experience, and in the experience of many others on this forum, it's really rare that you will run into this problem at all.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[KellyCD]

I too had very friendly dealings with a Fredericks of Hollywood store. They let me try on various corsets in one of the changerooms with absolutely no problems. They asked was I looking for something nice for my girlfriend and I said "no, for myself" and they hardly batted an eyelid.

Same here. I have had wonderful experiences with them. That's the main reason my wife and I spend so much at their stores.

Since they were so courteous to me, I bring in more business.

[Katrina]

BTW, not all stores in that mall are bad...

I went into Bakers tonight to just do some shoe browsing. It wasn't busy and the sales girl asked me if I needed any help. I said, "Not yet", and went on browsing. I found a cool pair of platformy heels and asked her if I could try them. The display shoe was my size so I said, "Oh, I can just try this one". She said, "Let me get the other one...hold on". Meanwhile, she hadn't given me any strange look at all...it was as if it was completely natural that I should be shopping and trying on those shoes. She comes back with three boxes of shoes. The red ones, flat black ones, and patent black ones. She then had to go help another customer. I tried them on and nobody gave me a second look (there were two other customers in the store by then). When I was ready to check out, she joked with me that I should get more than one pair. She also said she had that exact same pair but had paid full price for them (minus the employee discount), and she was PO'd that they went on sale ($20) soon afterwards. She was very professional and friendly, and I would purchase shoes from her again in a heartbeat.

[sandra-leigh]

But, I shop almost exclusively in women's clothing stores. After all, I am shopping for women's clothes. There is usually only one set of changing rooms available.

Right. And if there isn't a sign saying that that one set of changerooms are women's changerooms, then the presumption in Canadian law would be that they are customer changerooms, not gender-specific.

If I have understood karynspanties correctly, she is saying that one should not even consider asking to try something on unless there is a seperate male dressingroom. If I had followed that advice, I would have missed out on a lot of good shopping, with stores that were happy to serve me and which welcome me back as a good customer. In some of them, I know for sure that I have had exactly the opposite effect from "giving crossdressing a black eye": SAs and store owners, who didn't know anything about crossdressing before I started going to them, now thank me for sending CDs their way and remark on how polite and kind the CDs were. Just being your own open and polite and friendly self is an act of Education, educating that crossdressers are not seedy perverts, but are instead often very reasonable and pleasant people with good taste -- and who love to shop.

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

I agree with others that have stated you should not have phrased your question about an "embarrassing question". I have always tried on items at the stores that I shop at and assume that I have the same rights as anyone else tring on clothes. I pick out my items and if questioned when I am going in to try them on I state that I would like to see if these items fit and continue on my way. I have been "lucky" I guess because I have never been stopped, I do shop for womans clothes quite often and almost always en-femme. I have been to all the name brand stores and I think much of my success has been in my attitude that it is my right to try on the clothes and wear what ever I wish.
Good luck in your future shopping excursions!

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Hmmmm, may I ask how you were presenting yourself as female?
It just seems odd you keep getting the same response.
Is this some uber conservative area you're in?
Anyhow, smack them on the head next time and said if you were Dustin Hoffman doing research on a part for Tootsie II, she'd not hesitate.
Let me know on that dressing thing, k?
Kew

[RobertaFermina]

PJ,

I hear your sadness PJ. Rejection can hurt, and it looks like you got hurt.
You don't have to feel defeated.

You asked for what you wanted and got a NO.
Just asking is a victory.
Asking again is another victory.
Defeat is ceasing to ask.

Regenerate your spirit and ask again (in a new way?).

I can be killed. Yet, if my spirit is alive and striving, I am NEVER defeated.

Roberta

[krisla]

I agree with some of the other posts it depends on the SA and also your confidence level, I have been to MAC and also to Wig stores and have been treated like any other female customer even though I was drab. Both times I told the SA I was a crossdresser and asked if they would help me and both times they did. In fact at the wig store they thanked me for asking if there was a better time or protocol and they said jus come in.

I'm sorry I know how you must feel but you need to understand there are people who do help us with respect.

Krisla

[sandra-leigh]

Agree on using the men's dressing room in a store with both. I bought a dress at Sears a couple weeks ago and did just that.

At Sears, I normally use the men's dressing room; in the Sears I go to most often, the mens is right by a cash (get the men to pay before they change their mind ) and there is often a SA hanging around inside the dressing area (often a woman, interestingly): the cashiers and the dressing-room attendants often see what I'm taking in, and they don't display any sign that what I'm doing might be unusual. I hand back the items I don't want to the cashier just outside the room; they see me coming out, they see me handing over a dress or skirt or top or whatever, and they just thank me for bringing it over. Sometimes I ring it through right at that cash (where the other male customers are concentrated); usually though I end up going back to look for a few more items, and then I take my purchases to one of the other cashes. Half of the bra/panties SAs there know me by sight.

But on the other hand, Sears floor customer service is often conspicuously absent and so most of the time I'm working without an SA there. I have gone in to Sears and worked with SAs to help pick out blouses or skirts for me, and when I do work with the SAs like that, they usually have me go to a dressing room somewhere in the womens section -- somewhere they can go in and have me show them fits and suitability and they can run out and get other styles or sizes in short order. So even in a store that has a dressing room near menswear and another (or several) in ladyswear, if you are working with an SA to help you select, you can simply say something like, "Okay, I think I'm ready to try these on", and let them route you to a dressing room rather than assuming you must go over to mens. An SA who is "involved" in the sale may well decide that it doesn't make sense to have you running back and forth half way across the store, or might decide that you are likely to buy more if everything is convenient for you. Also, if you look, you might be surprised to find that many dressingrooms don't have any gender-specific sign on them, just the assumption that because they are in menswear or ladyswear that they are gender-specific. It depends on the chain, and depends on the individual store: some put up gender signs and other stores in the same chain might not, or might not have signage on all the dressing areas (possibly only the ones in the heart of the mens or womens and no signs on the periphery ones.)