Crossdressing In General

[mncrossdress]

Hey,

Why is it that a woman can wear a men's clothes, but when a guy wears women's clothes he is not accepted by society?

Just a thought!

[CarrieAnneEvers]

Yep, it's not fair, but mtf crossdressing is becoming more accepted. We're still considered weirdos , but at least we are more accepted weirdos! lol

[Kate Simmons]

Depends on who you mean by "society". Since we are part of "society", I guess at least part of "society" accepts it.

[dskin]

Well here in s/w ontario.we are celebrating .gay/les week. I have no problem being accepted.I am want I am and i'm so proud being a cd and enjoy my clothing i wear.Whether it be black tights with a short skirt,I always wear bra with forms and i smile all day long,just being me.Today i'm cutting my yard with bra and tanktop, and the shortest shorts i have ,going to wave at every passer by.Hope they wave Back.

[Tree GG]

I saw this thread and said to myself, "Don't do it. Keep on walking and ignore it." So much for listening to myself....

If you stated this complaint as, "Why can't men wear skirts and dresses when going to a formal or dressier social event?" I'd probably sympathize with the argument.

CDers aren't just wearing clothes, which the majority of women wearing a suit & tie (which is the only thing I personally would classify as "men's" clothes) isn't trying to make the world believe she is a man. It's simple clothing-fashion. CDers are trying to get society to believe they are a woman (in general, not all CDers of course).

Plus, which are female and which are male clothes? As Salandra pointed out, societies are different around the world. Caftans worn in the Middle East & Africa are technically dresses. Kilts are skirts. But would a CDer wear either of those & be satisfied that they crossdressed? Majority has spoken no as it is not labelled as "women's wear" so does not achieve the desired result. But it's still a dress or a skirt so men around the world CAN wear what you may consider women's clothes and be perfectly acceptable in their society.

Levi jeans were originated as rugged work clothing for the mines. Not necessarily men's wear - work wear. It just happened at the time that it was socially unacceptable for women to work in the mines.

My husband tried that "you can wear anything you want" argument - and I'm not buying it. I cannot wear anything I want. If I want to be considered a competent professional, I must wear the uniform that social group accepts as norm. If I want to appear as a serious athlete-wannabe at the tennis club - I wear the uniform. EVERYONE picks a social group they want to be included in and adopts the acceptable garb of that group or pays a price for being "different" and must earn the acceptance in other ways. CD's (not TS) are asking for acceptance in a social group that is primarily determined by biology, not clothing. There is nothing I can wear that would get me accepted in the "good ol' boy club". I just haven't got the raw material.

[Mary447]

not fair.....
but I'm willing to put up with it for the way it feels, gf........

[Karren H]

Now you've done it... Got Tree GG all riled up!! Lol. But she's also right... Well mostly.. Except for the jeans part!! Lol

Women wearing jeans and slacks and shirts designed for women is not the same as them wearing mens clothing.. They are not crossdressing... Hey..... Fashions change...

And what if wearing skirts and dresses were alowed for men?? It would certantly ruin the sport of crossdressing for me!! Hehe

Karren

[Tree GG]

Now you've done it... Got Tree GG all riled up!! Lol. But she's also right... Well mostly.. Except for the jeans part!! Lol.....

That and $4 will get you coffee at Starbucks

[Kate Simmons]

I agree with Tree, they are just clothes dangit. I can get satisfied with wearing a caftan BTW . Anyway, I sometimes get confused by some that want to present as women and make people believe they are. I mean, what are they trying to accomplish? Okay, I'll admit that way back when I was trying to do the same thing but then I grew up a little. I no longer try to make people think I'm a woman, because, in all honesty, I think that is downright silly. It's just a fashion statement showing that as a guy I can look pretty when I want to but, hey, I AM a guy and don't try to deny it.
Some days I just want to be Richard and enjoy that but I never mix and match except when I get a hankering to be Eric, who is Sal in drab (but that is another "ball game" and part of my fun stuff). In any case, I don't ever have a problem being myself and if other people do, oh well--that's life! Society (by and large) can "kiss mah grits" (as Flo used to say) 'cause I ain't gonna stop being myself any time soon. The point is I have fun with it and never take it seriously. So, do I need anyone's permission or "acceptance"?--Nah, don't think so.

[mellisa's wife]

I have to agree with Tree about woman not wearing "men's clothing" at time but are wearing "Work" clothes.

Today I painted my office..... wearing white jeans ( my painting 'uniform' ) and a blue tank top. These are my "work" clothes for doing messy chores. They are not my usual clothes but they do serve a purpose.

Don't get me wrong, I do feel bad for men - my husband especially - who are not "allowed" to wear skirts and dresses in front of the general public. He saves those for at home and also wears his "work clothes" when working.

In this part of the world.... I get strange looks when I go out in a skirt or anything "dressy"... .I always get asked "where am I going"....... so it's going to be a long while to ever have "femme men's clothing" accepted around here. At my house though.... it is the norm.

[Karren H]

That and $4 will get you coffee at Starbucks

Since my doctor won't let me have any caffeine any more I'm sure glad you brought that up!!! Grrrrrrrrrr



Karren

[bi_weird]

I would like to weigh in on this question from the FTM point of view.
If you're taking the simplistic definition that pants are mens clothes, then yes, women can wear them. But a lot of you have worn womens jeans. Can you tell me that's the same article of clothing as men's jeans? Or that you're allowed to wear them at work with the same ease as you get away with mens pants?
I live in the wonderful bubble that is a college campus, where I can get away with wearing just about everything. Thing is, I have to think about it once I want to leave campus to run errands. Can I wear a tie? (FYI I never pass as a guy) Am I feeling brave enough to know that I'll get looks and possibly harassed for it? At the same time, am I willing to compromise who I am to take off my guy's clothes to run errands.
This bubble doesn't just end at the edge of campus. Even if I stay on campus as a professor, some day I'll have to be a real grown up with a real job, at which point my guys clothes become unacceptable again. There's no way I could interview for a tenured professorship in men's clothing and have a chance at getting the job.
Yes, we're less likely to get harassed out on the street. That doesn't mean we can get away with it, though. A lot of you know the fear of being discovered wearing panties...we'll I've got the same one for boxers. It might be acceptable for me to wear a tie to class, but there's no way my friends would understand boxers, so I try really hard to make sure I'm not discovered. We are tolerated in liberal areas, but I'm from a small midwestern town and I promise I wouldn't be accepted there at all if I went home dressed the way I prefer.
There's more, but I'm late to class!

[christina marie]

im with Karren on this one. if it didnt annoy anyone, it just wouldnt be as much fun any more!

[Kerry Owens]

Women wearing slacks and a blouse are wearing clothing designed for a woman....we're not wearing Haggar slacks with a Arrow brand shirt, big difference there.
Now when I'm wearing a nice comfy pair of sweatpants with a t-shirt there the gender style is blurred. But still, folks what comprises a dress/Caftan and womens/mens styles is different all the world over everywhere. Why gripe?

Society has through out ages decreed and then changed it's mind, take style/fashion with a big grain of salt and being realistic,don't make mountains outta molehills.

[Priscilla Ann]

Count me as another who thinks if it were perfectly okay for me to wear women's clothes it wouldn't be near as much fun.

As for what women wear, I say let them wear whatever they want to.

[SL]

Oooookay. This is not about whether or not this or that is "fun".
The original post more or lest implicated that it was "easy" to CD as a man.
Bulls**t.
Because if that were the case you could do it and not be fired without lame and indirect reasons.
You would not need to worry about the 3 bio guys standing in a group watching your motions looking real hostile.
And you would not be waited on by the sales attendent while you were buying toothpaste who never said anything rude but held her lips tightly and performed that task perfunctorily and relaxed when you where gone.

This notion that there is some sort of "ease" takes into account only the existence of women who dress for fashion, or perhaps those do to "be outrageous" or "have a kick".
Completely denying the life of a person born in a certain body yet needing to live -ie make a living, function in society- as another sex.


And I'm not trying to be rude. Or "go off". Or be alienating to anyone. But I do want to mark the difference. And its just my personality to be direct.

[Ashly]

Back in the Golden Twenties women began fighting for wearing pants instead of skirt and dresses. One of the famous figures those days was Marlene Dietrich. She wore a men's suit with tie to some occasions...what an outcry !!!
During WWII women had to work in factories for the war machine...they couldn't wear skirts to do the job..they got the rights to wear pants.

You can wear whatever you like in public as long as it is not exposing something which is against the law..You might get some laughs..maybe a redneck wants to punch you and maybe your wife doesn't like it. In the end it is up to you how far you want to go..Somebody has to start the movement or it well never happen.

[Tree GG]

Since my doctor won't let me have any caffeine any more I'm sure glad you brought that up!!! Grrrrrrrrrr



Karren

Now that's really a "Life's not fair" moment!

[Linda C]

Do you think that you would be as into it if Cding wasn't so taboo? If it was accepted in society there would be many more Cd'ers and the fun level would decrease(for me at least.)

[Marla S]

Most has already been said, best by Tree and Salandra, nevertheless I'd like to give my

CDers aren't just wearing clothes, which the majority of women wearing a suit & tie (which is the only thing I personally would classify as "men's" clothes) isn't trying to make the world believe she is a man. It's simple clothing-fashion. CDers are trying to get society to believe they are a woman (in general, not all CDers of course).

That is a crucial point IMO and that's the point where FTMs get trouble too.
There might be a asymmetry but here is no double standard.

Caftans worn in the Middle East & Africa are technically dresses. Kilts are skirts. But would a CDer wear either of those & be satisfied that they crossdressed? Majority has spoken no as it is not labelled as "women's wear" so does not achieve the desired result. But it's still a dress or a skirt so men around the world CAN wear what you may consider women's clothes and be perfectly acceptable in their society.

Second very important point to consider.
It is the symbolic value (label, story, association) that counts not the shape or technical aspect.
Best example is probably a bra. This seems to have a very high symbolic power for a lot of CDs, but most technically don't need one, like FTMs technically don't need boxers with a fly.

Like be_weird pointed out, same trouble here for FTMs and MTFs too.

Levi jeans were originated as rugged work clothing for the mines. Not necessarily men's wear - work wear. It just happened at the time that it was socially unacceptable for women to work in the mines.

Yep, but this made it men's wear because it was made for men, and it didn't just happen.
Otherwise it should be perfectly fine for a steward to wear skirts, because skirts are the work wear for flight attendands, which are and have been predominately women.

Here is where the 'unfairness' starts.
Men's wear is fairly easy, and willingly adapted for women's fashion (it becomes women's fashion then and isn't male clothes anymore), adapting women's fashion for men is a big NO-NO.
Fashion journals proudly announce almost every season the new masculine or dandy-style for women (usually followed by the new feminine style in the next issue ).
BUT I never ever read about the new feminine or diva-style for men.

Baseline: Women usually don't wear men's clothes (most that I see don't), but masculinity is an accepted and sometimes promoted attribute of women's fashion (same with hair styles and everything else).
In contrast feminity is not an accepted attribute of men's fashion. Here is the double standard.
In contrast to women a feminine man has no other chance than to buy women's clothes, if he wants to express femininity and/or tries to avoid the usual masculine image (he becomes a CD then).

I think this is an expression how differently femininity and masculinity are valued in our society

[GACountrygal]

You can wear whatever you like in public as long as it is not exposing something which is against the law..

EXACTLY!!!


Ok, I'll weigh in on my point.

For the most part, I wear mens jeans. Could that technically be "crossdressing" ? maybe for someone else but not me?? But its for practical reasons. Mens jeans are cheaper and I can get them long enough without having to look like I'm waiting for a flood! I dont wear mens jeans to look like a guy (although I might in the right moment from behind wearing a ballcap, tshirt and workboots ) I wear em because I simply CANNOT justify spending $10 more on a pair of womens jeans while I'm still bouncing between sizes. Most of the time I wear womens tops, or genderless t-shirts. For me its comfort and practicality!!

[Marla S]

Ok, I'll weigh in on my point.

For the most part, I wear mens jeans. Could that technically be "crossdressing" ? maybe for someone else but not me?? But its for practical reasons. Mens jeans are cheaper and I can get them long enough without having to look like I'm waiting for a flood! I dont wear mens jeans to look like a guy (although I might in the right moment from behind wearing a ballcap, tshirt and workboots ) I wear em because I simply CANNOT justify spending $10 more on a pair of womens jeans while I'm still bouncing between sizes. Most of the time I wear womens tops, or genderless t-shirts. For me its comfort and practicality!!

That's interesting and technically it is crossdressing ... or better it would be, if a man would argue along the same line.

Your advantage is that you predominately have to bother about the price. A man predominately has to bother about the label and usually would spend 50 bugs more just to avoid the impression of being somewhat weird.
That could become the entrance to the closet. Once you are in there a lot of strange things can happen to you

[Kate Simmons]

Face it Nic, you gals can "guy up" on all the clothes you want. Most of us, on our best days, could not hold a candle to the femininty you gals have, even if you dressed like hobos. It's about way more than the clothes and we all know it.

[Sweet Jane]

I never like the "woe is me" type of thread, where we lament about the perceived injustices of society.

I have read the other responses, and there is a big difference between presenting as the opposite gender, and wearing similar clothes styled for your gender. If thats what you want to do, purchase a kilt, or one of the many South Pacific Island mens skirt like clothes, and present as a man.

For many of us here the issue is bigger than just wearing some clothes of the opposite gender, its about reassigning gender. For others its a bit of a hoot to just push a societal norm, and then theres probably people fitting all points between (and maybe some off each extreme as well!)

Lamenting about what is acceptable to one gender or the other does nothing to alter anything...it most certainly doesn't empower you, infact you end up victimising yourself.

In this life its best to concentrate on the things you can control or change, and ignore the things that you cannot. You, me and Nelson Mandela are not enough to change societies ingrained perceptions of people who blur the gender lines, but you can dress and enjoy yourself........its not illegal, so do it.

[Ruth]

This is a really difficult one and I think Marla S had it better than anyone else. But the trouble is, we've all come to CDing from our own special places. CDing fulfils a need, but it is not necessarily the same one for all, so we're not all being in the same place when we CD. The man/woman dichotomy is a simplification and is not truly applicable to many of us.
I mostly try to dress as a passable woman so I can go out in public in the clothes I like, but the person I want to be is not a woman. It's me.