The Great "tranny Revolution?"

[Sarah Plumber]

As I said in my previous thread I've had a thought. How do you all feel about this?

Twenty years ago it was illegal in the UK Forces to participate in any homosexual activity. If caught it meant a military jail sentance. After a few years this changed to "being encouraged to leave" or an "admin discharge". This happened to a friend of mine who nobody knew was gay.He just wasn't at work one day. Then about 5 years ago it was made legal with the advent of the UK's Human right act. Homosexuality is no longer the big issue that it was whilst I was a kid. The world has turned so that is almost but not quite fanshionable. Society now accepts it as part of normal life.

Do you think that we are on the verge of the same thing happening for those of us here? The internet has obviously made a huge difference giving all of us somewhere to meet and talk to each other. Will we see in ten years or so that crossdressing and trangenderism is accepted as part of lifes big tapastry?
I believe that some of our sufrigettes are here amongst us. Taking the lead in making our situation "normal"...

Sarah P

[Mary Morgan]

Yes Sarah, you are quite correct, since however I will be 60 YO in three weeks, I would like the revolution to be over sooner rather than later. Viva la difference.

[Valerie Nicole]

I offered my opinion on this subject here:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=60274

What I basically said there (and what you seem to be implying, if I understand you correctly) is that the revolution is hugely possible, but the only way for it to happen is for us to bring it about ourselves. If we don't take responsibility for changing things, who will?

[Marla S]

I don't believe in the big revolution.
Small steps towards more tolerance are made every day.
Sometimes I even have the impression that the lame legislature is ahead of the general mood within the public.

Speaking about the general public, I don't think that homosexuality is really accepted. It is tolerated in many countries of Europe but it is still oppressed in other countries.
Even here in Germany, which is a quite tolerant place IMO (mayor of the capital is gay, leader of the liberal party is gay, etc.), 'gay' is more often used as cuss word or something to make jokes about than in a respectful way.
That will never really change IMO.

We can hope for more tolerance, which we will get if we show up, but we never will be 'normal' or be seen as 'normal'.

Hope someday there will be a tranny politician or similar here in G, but I don't think it will happen soon.

Showing up is the only means to make progress.

That's what gays and lesbians did.

When the actual mayor (kind of governor) of Berlin was nominated a candidate he outed himself and said something which became a dictum here:
I am gay and that is a good thing.

So, we need to go out and say:
I am trans and that is a good thing.

Only when people realize that there are trans people and that they are facing a trans person right now, progress can be made.

[melissaK]

Do you think that we are on the verge of the same thing happening for those of us here? Will we see in ten years or so that crossdressing and trangenderism is accepted as part of lifes big tapastry? I believe that some of our sufrigettes are here amongst us. Taking the lead in making our situation "normal"... Sarah P

I think we are part of the LGBT movement, at least in WASP culture. I think the wave of social acceptance of those with sex related variances began in 1954 with Playboy and Hugh Hefner who tapped into what a lot of Americans were ready for - to be freed of repressive sexual mores. He made it OK to look at a naked woman someplace besides a red light bowery district. Once WASP society accepted that, well Pandoras box was open.

Still theres a LOT of households where a Playboy/Playgirl type magazine is still a sin. LGBT is even lower (higher?) on their sin list. A LOT of households with deep sexual repression. A LOT of churches replete with traditional do as I say not as I do double-speak- like the Colorado Springs Fundamentalist Ministry of Pastor Ted What's his name who turned out to be a closeted homosexual. His flock remains with their heads buried in the sands of denial as they are busy trying to "cure" him nowadays.

Those of us who look passable do pretty well. No one knows so what test is that? The test is whether social mores move enough so non-passing CD or TS are accpeted; and whether mores move enough so GG/SO will be intimate with us. Will "Madison Avenue" and "Disney" stop programming our kids with ads and story lines that only reward hetero hereos and heroines with traditional monogamous relationships? I hope the pendulum continues to swing so someday "Shrek" dates his own sex. Or Lois Lane goes into the phone booth and comes out as Superman. (Say, has anyone actually seen a phone booth anywhere lately?)

And its only by telling others that we exist that the pendulum can keep swinging.

We each do our part by telling a SO, or a close friend who finds some room in their hearts to accept us. We each do our part by interrupting the TS joke and saying something like "its not funny - those people don't have a choice about how God made them."

We do our part by raising our kids to accept TS and CDers too. Maybe we dare to tell them about us when they are older and then there's one more adult who will have room in their hearts for us. They will influence their SO and friends and raise TG/CD tolerant children. And TS and CDers of tomorrow will find more and more acceptance.

I am aging too and will not benefit from such a slow revolution, but that's ok. I am born and live when I do and I can't change that.

Valerie Nicole's link to the other thread was a worthwhile read. Same subject, lots of sane commentary.

Hugs'
'lissa

[Kate Simmons]

Many of us do go out there and say who we are and don't care what the "leadheads" think. Quite honestly, I don't think most people give a hoot one way or the other and would probably be cool with it given half a chance. I feel that most of the stigma and fear about the issue lies in us. That is the biggest obstacle to be overcome. Only we can do that.

[trannie T]

Society is becoming more accepting of minority groups. At my advanced age of almost 60 (Louise and I are within days of each other's age) I can remember most of the civil rights struggle. Gays and lesbians have made tremendous strides in public acceptance.
The transgender community will make more advances as more of us leave the closet and become more visible.

[battybattybats]

Or Lois Lane goes into the phone booth and comes out as Superman.

I saw a website years ago that detailed the many times the reporter Jimmy Olsen (spelling?) crossdressed to get a story. Maybe that should be in the next movie.

Perhaps we need to give more attention to the efforts of those who march? Encouraging others to do so?

How can those trapped in the closet help?

Perhaps there may be ways we can try and bring our struggles to greater sympathic attention?

What tactics that the LG groups have used would be helpful, what not?
For one I disagree with 'outing' others as a political act except, perhaps, when those have acted in ways that have substantially harmed others like Ted Haggard or anti-gay voting politicians who themselves are gay.

While the political forum here had to be closed down recently, do we all not have a duty, a moral responsibility, to some form of activism?

[SandyR]

Sarah you bring up a good point. For me being a Right winged conservitive, with some liberal aspects......Cross Dressing. I have seen some major changes in 25+ years. Like now its ok for a guy to shave his legs, take a bath, enjoy candles, nice lotion. Who knows what the future brings, but I think its gonna be bright!

Hugs!

SandyR

[christianna]

Showing up is the only means to make progress.

That's what gays and lesbians did.

Only when people realize that there are trans people and that they are facing a trans person right now, progress can be made.

I agree wholeheartedly with these statements. I also agree that the gay community is not so much accepted as tolerated, as someone who was in lesbian relationships for years. But they are tolerated and they are tolerated much more now than they were when I was growing up. And showing up was how we accomplished being less of a spectacle and more part of the scene.

Off topic: LOL... After 7 years of fighting for same sex benefits, I finally got them.. 6 months after I started dating men again. My timing has always been impeccable.

Christianna

[Beth785]

It seems at times that the LGBT community takes a step forward, but then gets knocked back a yard. I know Lawrence, KS, just signed a domestic partnership registry, where it acknowledges non married couples whom would like joint benefits (both gay and straight couples) with companies that offer them. But, you then read on how more states are passing same sex marriage bans.

I also agree that the vast majority doesn't mind/care about gay marriage. But those that don't care either way also don't care enough to make their voice heard at the polls, allowing the minority against gay marriage the majority to vote bans in effect.

Now, while I and a good portion here are not gay, as far as the public is concerned, cross dressing means gay. Acceptance of gays is acceptance of cross dressing.

Now, did I just make any sense? I seem to ramble alot and just write what comes out of my scrambled brain as it comes out.

[christianna]

Now, while I and a good portion here are not gay, as far as the public is concerned, cross dressing means gay. Acceptance of gays is acceptance of cross dressing.

Now, did I just make any sense? I seem to ramble alot and just write what comes out of my scrambled brain as it comes out.

Isn't that the point of this thread that CDers don't want to be seen as gay just because they crossdress? Isn't that part of the stigma or sense of shame, for a straight man, attached to CDing that people will think your gay? No offense to the gay men meant here, but if I was a man with a heightened sense of fashion that happened to be straight... i would not want to be assumed to be gay. Practically speaking, it would make it harder to pick up chicks. At least I think it would... and who would want to fight the gay fight when it isn't your own... I would think as crossdressers and transexuals... that there is enough to defend without the added burden of being labeled gay out of hand.

[Sarah Plumber]

To take this to next level, if we were to be completely accepted would we still do it? If the world became a place were you could wear whatever you wanted whenever and werever the world would become androginous. The genders would become extremely blurred. I guess you might have to be very carefull who you "pick up" depending on your preference.

I'd prefer a world where I could go from one to other without any stigma or comment. There will always be the problems with individual realtionships as I don't believe that nature would let us have the equivillant to an open marriage for everybody. If you can see what I'm trying to say.

I guess it might come one day, but I do feel that certainly the western world is becoming more tolerent and accepting. It is still going to take time and we are still facing it's infancy. As my generation is more tolerent I guess my kids are more so and even more with my Grandkids (when and if I have any). I do worry that this may cause an even bigger divide between us and the middle east where our behavior is going to be condemed for a lot longer.

[Sweet Jane]

I guess I have stopped fretting about what society sees as normal behaviour and how it applies to me...I am not "out"....don't intend too either, simply because this whole dual gender thing is even too complicated for me to rationalise.
People I work with would be stunned to know "this" me, so would most of my friends, and I'm not sure what my children would think. Mum however, would not be surprised to know that I am still dressing, I think??
I agree homosexuals have got a degree of public acceptance, but are they "honestly" accepted by society or accepted only because of human rights legislation, hence the bigots just are not so vocal. I recently read an article in the local paper, and of the respondants of a questionnaire, on who they would like least as neighbours, picked homosexuals???????...That had me baffled. I would have thought they would have been great neighbours....but then they never included TG in the survey...who knows how we would fare???
So the great tranny revolution........well we may get the legal rights, but so long as you are a minority....you are just that. A curiosity at best, someone to hate at worst......hmmmmmmmmmmm, thats my musing on this...I don't think Utopia is just around the next bend.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

The internet has obviously made a huge difference giving all of us somewhere to meet and talk to each other.

It's also had a very big negative effect. TGs no longer have to go out of the house to communicate with others. Just sit at the keyboard with 3 days of stubble and pontificate from the safety of the closet ...

Will we see in ten years or so that crossdressing and trangenderism is accepted as part of lifes big tapastry?

In certain countries possibly, in others definitely not.

I believe that some of our sufrigettes are here amongst us.

The Sufrigettes were involved in campainging for votes for women. Many of their leaders came from the Rational Dress Movement which was formed to fight the rigid Victorian dress codes which made it virtually impossible for women to ride bicycles. To liken us to them is an insult to their memory and achievements IMHO.

Taking the lead in making our situation "normal"...

"Taking the lead" implies that there are others following. As someone who's activily involved in political campaigning for legal protection from discrimination for all trans people in the UK, I get no sense that there's anyone following. It's not easy trying to campaign on behalf of a bunch of closetted cowards.

[Valerie Nicole]

To take this to next level, if we were to be completely accepted would we still do it? If the world became a place were you could wear whatever you wanted whenever and werever the world would become androginous. The genders would become extremely blurred.

I'm not sure I see this as something in the realm of possibility. However, I think that even in a case like this, it isn't a question of whether or not we do it anymore. If genders become as blurred as you seem to imply they might, then I think the concept of crossdressing would seem to exist entirely. It would be impossible because there would be no other gender to mimic.

What I think would happen in this case is those of us who are crossdressers would probably just wear what we were more drawn to and found most comfortable. Not to speak for everyone, but for me this would be dresses and skirts and stuff like that. I can't say for sure that I would still do it if they weren't labeled as feminine anymore, but that's probably what would happen for me.

And I think a completely androgynous world would be a good thing. It would give us the freedom to wear what we wanted without fear of ridicule. The label and stigma of crossdressing would go away completely and we would be poised to freely express ourselves. This sounds like a perfect world, but I doubt it will happen.

What I see as the real possibility is grudging tolerance at first, with a minority who already accept us. Then as the climate changes from one where we're supposed to stay hidden to one where it's a little safer to come out, more of us will come out and the tolerance and acceptance levels will both start to increase. We can start to educate people and give them a better understanding of who we are as people. Of course, in order for this to happen we would need to make all the first moves. Nobody's going to do it for us.

[DonnaT]

In the UK, they are already leaps and bounds ahead of us with respect to trans issues. Heck, there are even folks in the military transitioning.

The laws against discrimination based on gender identity and/or expression are changing here, but very slowly. If we get a president who will sign a bill that passes the house and senate, things will get better all around.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

In the UK, they are already leaps and bounds ahead of us with respect to trans issues.

Actually Domna some U.S. states are far more advanced in this area than we are. All of the legislative concessions which the UK Government has made to date regarding LGBT issues (barring the 1967 decriminalisation of homosexuality) have only come about because individuals have gone to court and shown that the Government is/was in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights. We're currently fighting to have anti-discrimination legislation extended to cover all trans people. The Government's response so far has been to dismiss us as "a life-style choice". At the same time they're spouting about equality for all but the truth is that their vision of equality in the UK is very Owellian. Some definitely are more equal that others.

Heck, there are even folks in the military transitioning.

Only the super-rich are above the law the UK.

[Satrana]

I think before we go off to start a revolution, we need to begin with ourselves and this rather important point.

Now, while I and a good portion here are not gay, as far as the public is concerned, cross dressing means gay. Acceptance of gays is acceptance of cross dressing.

Isn't that the point of this thread that CDers don't want to be seen as gay just because they crossdress? Isn't that part of the stigma or sense of shame, for a straight man.

I never considered myself homophobic but still I did not want to be considered gay. This meant for example that I disliked partial dressing because a man in a skirt look made me uncomfortable...because I looked gay. Going the whole way and emulating a woman made me feel safe. If I could pass then I would be accepted.....

In a sense I can see how I was hiding behind the cisgendered normality of the female gender and not revealing my transgenderness because in truth I still harbored feelings against gay people. Why else would I be so uncomfortable with any look that made me feel gay?

The first revolution must be within the CD community itself, we must identify with our transgenderness and be comfortable with it and not hide our true selves by only emulating women.

We must face the reality that everyone else believes we are gay, and saying we are not, just falls on deaf ears. Over the coming years we may be able to slowly educate others but in the meantime we must recognize and be truly comfortable in our relationship with the gay community because like it or not, our paths will be intertwined for many years to come.

So not only must you be able to say in a loud voice "I am proud to be a CD", you must also have the conviction to say "I am proud to be gay" (even though you may not be). It is entirely due to the gay rights movement that CDs have any tolerance at all. Without them we would be locked up in prisons and mental hospitals.

This was one of my greatest personal revolutions, overcoming my unconscious homophobia. Once I did, I could partially dress and be happy with the result to the extent that I have lost interest in emulating women except for when I want to have a bit of fun. Emulation is the fun hobby part of my transgenderness.

There is a lot of work we need to do on ourselves first before we start off on our public revolution. We have not defined who we are because we continue to conform to the cisgendered environment and run away from prejudice instead of facing up to it.

[Sarah Plumber]

There's some great reply's here and i agree whith a lot of what is being said. Although we do have a problem that the Gay comunity does not. Many of us have wives and families who do not wish to be identified with our "hobby" in any way. This certainly includes me. If I was to start fighting the great fight and campain I would have to have greater than 100% support from all of my family which would cover over 3 generations and probably in excess of 30-40 people. Without considering my friends who may or may not wish to be associated with a CD/TV/TS. Therefore that leap would be just to much for me. I may sound like a "sissy" but I'm just not brave enought to take that step and loose the company/ freindship of these. As for being considered Gay to honest should I come out and go public I guess that comes with the territory and would be the least of my problems.
I've been through one divorce and my life did change considerably. If (god forbid) it should happen again I'm absolutely sure that this time I'd say to hell with it and would be out to meetings all of the time and I'd definatley be looking for a SO who aproved, supported and encouraged.

[tall_brianna]

Not only is a revolution coming - it's here. I see it in the youth here. More and more gender blurred lines. Everywhere I look I see boys wearing more girlish clothes and yeah, even a skirt! No kidding I saw this the other day and I had to do a double take. The funny thing was that I think I was the only one who looked twice.

I went to a TG convention in May there was maybe one person under 35 there. Face it we're dying off as a group and it's a good thing. When society accepts the fact that gender is not a binary state of being, cross dressing becomes moot.

Sure there will always be those who are at the ends of the spectrum and not always at the same end of the spectrum as their genitalia, but even there I see amazing things happening. Young transsexuals starting early in life. I feel a great sense of happiness when I read some of their blogs on myspace. They are just living their lives out in the open - one I read lives in Georgia (US) of all places. They have friends, dreams and by all appearances healthy and "normal" lives.

I think in 20 years transgendered people will be as common place as gay people are now. Everyone will work with or know someone who is and they won't fear them (and if they do, they'll at least keep it to themselves for fear of being perceived as intolerant).

I'll conclude my soliloquy by saying a heartfelt thanks to all of those of boldly went where no one had gone before and showed the world that we weren't just perverts hiding in the dark.

Many of us do go out there and say who we are and don't care what the "leadheads" think. Quite honestly, I don't think most people give a hoot one way or the other and would probably be cool with it given half a chance. [SIZE="4"]I feel that most of the stigma and fear about the issue lies in us.[/SIZE] That is the biggest obstacle to be overcome. Only we can do that.

OMG Salandra, you nailed it. And you were also one of the people my heartfelt thanks went out to.

[Toyah]

I think the only revolution is the one in your mind, society doesnt care if we exist or not

[Rachaelb64]

The revolution may come and people may accept it as 'norm' but there will always be those narrow mind people who'll hate you and everything you represent.

So you say **** them and carry on with your life

[Satrana]

I went to a TG convention in May there was maybe one person under 35 there. Face it we're dying off as a group and it's a good thing. When society accepts the fact that gender is not a binary state of being, cross dressing becomes moot.

I don't think we are dying out quite yet. Society only changes slowly over decades. I would be very disappointed though if a forum like this still existed in 20-30 years time. We have all been twisted out of shape by the confinement and isolation of the closet and the fear of other's prejudices, that is wrong.

Society is becoming more and more aware that there needs to be a gender revolution for males. The first baby steps have already been taken and it is not so far away when Joe Bloggs break outs of his strictly defined gender role and openly incorporates femininity into his appearance and behavior. Only then will the crossdresser becoming a dying species to be replaced with healthy, balanced, happy men with the freedom to express their true selves and openly accepted without reservation.

[btmgrl6]

I agree with you


steph