Aspects I Don't Understand

[sobe1ove GG]

PREFACE:
Hi! Now, I know people say how you shouldn't seek answers to the 'why' when it comes to CDing or TGs, but, I still have some questions.

Yes, I already know that everyone is different and that each person has a different experience.
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Alright. I have known about my boyfriend, Leah B, being a crossdresser for a little over a year. He only started actually doing anything with it last May.

Over the course of the last couple of months, we've talked a lot about what it is to be a cross dresser and transgendered. I've also heard a lot of things on these boards. Some of it I totally get, other stuff, I don't.

Here's the things I don't get, so that some of you might be able to educate me:

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

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Okay, I'm done. I realize that I can sometimes be abrasive in the language I choose, and I am sorry in advance for offending anyone. Feel free to tell me your side of these issues so that I can better understand what it means to be an MTF CD/TG/TS and so on.

Thanks!

Sobe

[Dita_B]

Hello Sobe...

Now first off, I really wanted to answer your questions because IMHO they touch the core of the crossdressing issue and a bit of soul searching never hurts. But the opinions I will express hereunder are my opinions only and although coming straight from my heart, I do not pretend to represent the opinions of the cross dress community at large. Many cross dressers may have opinions that differ from mine and may even be appalled by them…

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

You are absolutely right about this. It is unfair in my opinion to say this and in the process belittle or even bagatalize the impact the dressing has on the SO… Because it just isn’t only the clothes and every CD knows that. The underlying reason for the dressing is the desire to express as a woman. If it were the clothes only that desire would not be present. For instance when one wishes to dress like a witch at Halloween, does that mean that one wishes to express oneself as a witch or is it just a harmless disguise taken on only for the one time occasion?
So it sits deeper than the clothing alone. I remember the first time I donned woman’s clothing and it brought such intense feelings to the surface that I was overwhelmed and hooked for the rest of my life. I still don’t know where those feelings came from and I can’t answer that question, but I can assure you that they are there ever since and they have only intensified over the years…So I cannot agree with you more on this…

- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

Yes I understand this one, because I feel the same thing and do the same thing… Going out in the world as a man dressed as a woman is the ultimate challenge for every cross dresser… Read the forums about the subject… Passing as a woman in public means the ultimate confirmation for the successful expression as a woman for every crossdresser and is therefore (almost) every crossdresser's goal. You, as the SO, who loves him, and knows him are biased because of your relationship with him and are therefore disqualified as to judge his success in passing. The outside world however, who doesn’t know him/her from a hole in the wall and knows absolutely no scruples, will cruelly humiliate him in case they read him and they chose to do so. Groups of young teenage kids of both sexes are notorious for that. So the conditioning, stigma and stereotyping that goes with a male expressing as a female comes with a tremendous risk for the crossdresser who ventures out in public. It is therefore the ultimate crossdresser ‘s frontier and a challenge once over won that brings with it a feeling of euphoria, or even ecstasy, if you will. It comes straight from the soul and it is tremendously addicting, almost like if coming from using a drug…
So if you feel neglected in that respect please consider the circumstances around it. You are not neglected but your opinion as a biased person, is not the ultimate challenge and as such not the end of the line, but just a step on the way towards it…

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.

Now this reaches to the core of the crossdressing issue. IMHO there is NO COMPROMISE in the cross dressing issue. The crossdressing is not going away, no matter what the consequences. Most crossdressers, me included, have done the dressing for most of their lives, regardless of circumstances or danger of discovery… And we all keep doing it despite what consequences are at stake. It is an evolution process as well because we live and learn. We get better at all aspect of it including better covering our tracks and improving our female appearance… Finally there comes a time when we all conquer our guilt and wish to claim our unalienated right to express ourselves for what we really are. This is a life time process and it is not reversible nor negotiable. Any OTHER issue may be negotiable EXCEPT cross dressing. I am sorry to say this, but in my world this is the way I am and how it stands. I risk a 38 year marriage with my cross dressing and when I recently introduced Dita to my unaccepting SO, she had huge issues with it. She asked me to compare the impact seeing me dressed as Dita with her introducing herself in army fatigues, well knowing that I like to see her dressed as feminine as possible and as often as possible and also that I hate everything army with a passion… (No offense meant to those who wear the uniform out of free choice).
Well, I gave her some sheepish answer, because I couldn’t answer properly… Here it is where we are at loggerheads and I am not going to budge, because budging would mean lying and the lying and deceiving is over and behind me, I had it with lying. So the crossdressing is not going away and the lying is not an option… Not a good start for a negotiation, isn’t it? So I sincerely hope that she can find it in her love for me to accept the crossdresser in me and I in turn will try not to rub her face into it. Every time when Dita now returns from one of her outings, I consider myself in army fatigues in her eyes and although I am ecstatic to see myself in the mirror dressed as Dita and despite I hate it with a passion to take Dita off, I’ll do it for her in an effort to minimize the impact… I noticed for instance that she doesn’t look at Dita when she enters the house. She purposely avoids the sight of her…

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

You are right again…I have noticed this as well and if you read the posts you will observe that most crossdressers have a tendency sooner or later to express themselves as a ****. I have analyzed this for myself as an attempt to express as the woman we never had and wanted so badly, whether in our fantasies or (temporarily) in reality. Now when a crossdresser has found a way to look like a real woman in the mirror it is a logical next step to express and dress in the way his “good girl” wife never wanted to express. We all seek a woman that will be the mother of our children, but somewhere we are excited about the bad girl… So when the bad girl doesn’t manifest whether in role playing or in reality, it finds a way to enter through the door of crossdressing. I have bought some ****ty outfits and I treasure them. I am not planning to go to the Mall in them, but I must admit that once when my SO was away from home for the night , that I dressed like a hooker and went down to the part of the City where they do their business and walked among them. It was a tremendous exciting experience and I tell you I could have made some serious money that night, but I felt no urge. What I got out of it though was an ultimate confirmation of my female expression… I was able to generate interest, how questionable it may be, from those John’s who were out there looking for a “date”…
Now, the idea of having sex with a male appalls me. So I am still sure to be 100% heterosexual… If a female I would be lesbian I guess, because I am still interested in females only from my sexual perspective…
So to summarize, it is only logic that every crossdresser will go through all facets of female expression that has ever generated his (sexual) interest. But only those expressions that resonate with him will remain. And that is different for each one of us…

- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

From my point of view, you are absolutely right. Expressing androgynous as a male to female expression and having to be much more “girly” at it, is to my taste a contradiction. Or, as you say it… changing one mask to the other, it doesn’t make sense to me, but hey it may make sense to him…

I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

And again, I have to agree with you. Having a preference for the things girls do and play with is for me not a sign of being a girl inside….but at most a support for the man who wants to express himself as a woman. IMHO on its own it means nothing. For instance, would it make me a woman when I pick up a woman’s fashion magazine while waiting at the doctor’s office? Or going through the racks with women’s fashion when I accompany my wife shopping for a new outfit? I don’t think so. This example may not touch the heart of the matter, but you get the point….Man can do many things that are typically seen as women’s jobs and women can do many things that are typically seen as reserved for men, like building a house, or as was said, driving a Harley Davidson bike. Does that make them wanting to express in the opposite sex? I don’t think so.

In resume it is a complicated issue and I have limited myself to answering your questions only and I tried to stay away from going on a tangent. However, I would want to stress to you that your relationship is at stake…in your position in regards to your boyfriend’s cross dressing. If he is anything like me, he will not abandon his cross dressing urge, no matter what. He may promise, but in the end the urge will show being stronger than himself. And if you are unaccepting the crossdressing will move back into the closet and/or the lying and secret phase will start all over again. It is up to you what you chose. I wouldn’t be able to live with a partner that dresses in army fatigues out of passion, much less making love to her, so I can understand that a compromise for his crossdressing may not be in your dictionary. However, if you would compromise, he would still be the guy you fell in love with and perhaps you may realize that one of the reasons you fell in love with him may well have been the fact that he acted towards you more from the female side of things…

I am sorry it has become such a long post, and I have written it 3 times now. But I just HAD to do it, because it is an issue many female partners have to deal with. If it has helped you, of anyone else in this forum, my time spent on it was well worth it…

I wish you all the best and I wish you wisdom in the choices you are going to make…

With lots of LOVE and COMPASSION, from Dita.

[Valerie]

Great questions. I have not the slightest clue about a "correct" answer, but we grew up in a culture that identified some aspects as masculine and others as feminine. Some of us are born in the forties... as hard as that is to believe, so perhaps we idenfify some colors, behaviors and so on as gender marked, while younger people do not. Your question about why clothes and accessories matter... I am not sure, but in our culture the fashion for men is limited and unimaginative, while women have wonderful options. (Would we still want to dress as women if they had to wear sacks?) In any case, thanks for your excellent questions.

Valerie

[Genevera]

no offense taken

there are no simple answers to your question, all your observations are right to some extent. Part of the problem is most CD's can't really express themselves very well, and they often misinterprate their own feelings for ideas that may or may not be correct. As you look over these forums you see CD's fixated on underwear, stockings, sleeping in panty hose and bras or old style clothng (possibly emulating their mothers). Some of these behaviours seem strange to you. In part because there are many causes of crossdressing.

You can almost look upon crossdressing as a symtom of something deeper inside the CD. Many go through some fetish stages and never go beyond that, others go beyond those stages, some dress constantly some sporadically, some dress for a lifetime and never get past the guilt, some come to terms with themselves, for me a year of hardcore therepy and a few suicide attempts got me to where I am. I was the product of the perfect storm for crossdressing, in doing the research my upbringing and home situation was ideal to create a crossdresser. Added on top of that were the drugs (prescribed) my mother used during her pregnancy that had the effect of feminizing my brain, those same drugs had the reverse effect on my sister masculinizing hers.

Going back to crossdressing being a symtom, that is why you see such diversity in the crossdressing community, every behaviour is tracing back to something that was a cause to them crossdressing. And their individual expression through crossdressing is as varied as the circumstances that led to the crossdressing.

Many threads in this forum do not apply to me so I don't follow them, nor do I look down upon those crossdressers because they don't do like I do, they are reacting to different causes than me and I understand that. But each one of those behaviours brings different issues into a relationship.

Communicate with him try to untangle his confusion or inability to express his feelings, what he is saying and what he really means may be two different things. It took years for me to figure out I didn't want to be a woman, or think of myself as woman trapped in a man's body.

Also understand this crossdressing community has a language all its own and crossdressing platitudes which are thrown around often in place of facts.

Spend time with the GG's here, contact CD's you are comfortable trying to talk to, e-mail me any time you need to bounce some ideas, if not me find someone your comfortable with to discuss things.

[Dee Talbot]

Naturally I have no answers to these questions But I think these questions are wonderful and look forward to reading all of the answers. To those whom have already answered, thank you for sharing your thoughts!!!

Dee

[Carin]

SoBe, these are good observations and excellent questions. Let me take a stab at some answers having been in most of these places. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. Just different views.

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them..

I think this is a matter of perspective. The CD is inside a room looking out the window at the beautiful ladies outside passing by. He wants to be out there and feel the same sensations that they do. For that he needs to put on the clothes, because without the clothes he believes that he won't know what it feels like to be a lady on the outside. His perspective as he goes out the door is that he is the same person, just with some necessary accessories (clothing). His perspective is that he is the same person physically and mentally. He does does not see himself differently, because he is looking out from inside his own mind. The SO can not see this perspective. She is a woman amongst women
She sees someone trying to be a woman coming out the door. That is a completely different perspective.


- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious..

I wouldn't go with that specific argument myself. However I think the pseudo logic behind it is: I get a big kick from emulating femininity. But I don't understand it. In order to understand more, I have to emulate more. To emulate more I have to go out and interact with more people (with strangers) as a woman. It is not so much what the stranger thinks from the interactions. It is more about how the CD feels in the interaction with the stranger.

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE..

I don't not agree that this is a typical attitude specific to M2F CDs. That being said, the "Inner Turmoil" can be VERY strong. That compromise is not always an easy one. But in a committed relationship you have every right to be a part of the process. You have every right to aks for any compromise that you feel you need. You may not get it. But this negotiation does not have to happen with an attitude.

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did..

I don't know about 50's, maybe not so far back, but anyway. In going the journey the cd wants to experience the trappings of femininity, and not just the age appropriate ones. He wants to experience the whole spectrum, starting with what works for him - in terms of turn-on. But I think you are right. He starts with his "idealized and generalized view of a woman". However, don't fault him for not having an accurate understanding of "Real Women". Does anyone have an accurate understanding of "Real Women"


- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?.

Yes I do. But it may take an TG a long time to figure out their comfort zone on the spectrum. Overshoot is predectable. There is not much in the way of stereotypical TG role models or mental images to leverage. However, we are bombarded with mental images of women.

- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

Well, that wasn't me, so I can't speak authoritavely. I was crossdressing in womens underwear when I realized I had gender issues. Maybe those posts suggest that those activities added to their information pool, as opposed to being the basis for thier conclusion.

[mylitta]

Good questions, Sobe, and thank you all for your thoughtful and honest replies. Very interesting and enlightening.

[kittypw GG]

Great questions Sobe.

Kehleyr's response is quite interesting but it raises more questions in my mind. A lot of the response reinforces my fear that perhaps all CD's are transexuals in denial.

So much of the crossdresser's life is baffeling in the context of identifying as a heterosexual man. It would be easier if the CD would just say "hey I'm a transexual" then you could just get on with life instead of waiting for the boom to drop or to keep trying to understand and wrap your mind around this whole phenomenon.

Kitty

Ditta B. : When ever I take the time to type a long post I always copy it before I submit so that if the time out thing happens you can go back in a paste your reply.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

A lot of the response reinforces my fear that perhaps all CD's are transexuals in denial.

Hi Kitty,

A small proportion quite possibly are. I think a lot are frightened of the true extent of their transgendism and try to hide it from themselves by proclaiming how macho they are and how it's "just a hobby". There's nothing quite like a good dose of self-denial to fuel a high-octane emotional roller coaster ride

[Byllie]

This is one interesting discussion. And it raises questions and concerns I've often mulled over myself.

Anyway, here's my 2 cents.

Several years ago, before I realized that I was a CD, my daughter had me take one of those online gender tests. She thought it would be fun. I came out slightly on the feminine side which blew her away, sort of.

Since then, I've taken such tests on occasion and always seem to fall on the cusp between masculine and feminine. Which is fine with me, but from my limited experience, most people cannot deal with a male who thinks, acts and looks half feminine and half masculine. Why?

I also have Tourettes Syndrome, tics that is, which can be suppressed. But if you do so, they come back with a vengence when you stop pushing them back. When I spend time *not* holding back the tics, I find they are milder and more easily dealt with. Tics are a part of my life, and those around me have come to accept them as part of me.

But the same cannot be said about CDing. How would folks feel if I wore whatever I felt like on a daily basis. Today a nice pair of slacks, tomorrow a skirt, or maybe a nice pair of skorts if it's a warm summer day.

I'm a guy, with a full beard (another story), and most folks would look at this behavior as odd or outrageous.

But, if a woman chose to wear slacks one day, jeans the next, a dress, or a skirt, no one would bat an eye. In fact, they might be impressed by the woman's breadth of taste.

I see men dressing to the nines, and wanting to called "miss" as overcompensating for the inability to dress and behave the way they'd like on a daily basis. I also see it, in older CDs, as a rapid progression through the stages of femininity that women experience through their whole lives.

Dressing age-inappropriate? Let's just called it delayed female adolescence. Yes, some CDs can get stuck in one of these stages, if their experiences do afford them what they need to move on to the next. And no, these are not TSs in disguise.

Anyway, that's just my humble opinion, for what it's worth.

[Paula Thomas]

Dita B - compose a long post or reply in a word processing program (e.g., Word), then copy it and paste it into the response box.

That way, you do not lose anything, you can use spell-checker, etc., and even take your time in responding.

I learned this the hard way.

[KandisTX]

Hello Sobe...

I am going to write you an answer from my point of view... You are touching the heart of the whole CD thing as far as I am concerned... But I have no time right now, and I just wanted you to know that an answer is coming...

Dita.

Believe it or not Sobe, I just spent an hour writing you an answer only to find that my post was wiped out after I was finished and told me I didn't have the right to post because I was not logged in... Log in on this forum seems to expire pretty quickly and if one is writing an edit to a post, the editing gets wiped out as soon as the log in expires... I didn't know that... I will rewrite in a new post tomorrow...

I am sorry...Dita..

Well Sobe it happened again. I really have to earn the privilege of answering your post. Despite following the advise of another member of preventing the login to expire, I just spent another hour to only lose the entire post again... I don't know what is wrong with it, but there is clearly a serious glitch in the software powering this forum. But I am going to try it again, but now I am going to write my reply in MS Word first and than copy it in here...I am not risking losing all my work for the third time....

I am sorry again... Dita.

Dita,

You can type your post up on Word and then copy and paste it into the box to reply. Just make sure to log in I for one would LOVE to read your response to her.

Kandis

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Excellent post; you raise many issues that I think a lot of us GG's have.

Kew

[AmberTG]

Here's an answer to some of the questions from someone who's been down both roads. First a bit of my background. I was a late starter, compared to a seriously transgendered person who knew when they were 4 or 5 years old. I was a normal boy until puberty. I've wanted to be a girl sense puberty, but I think that there's a fetish connection to that also. When I was younger, it was very much connected to fetish reasons, it always got me excited, and after satisfying myself, be it 5 minutes after getting "dressed" or 2 hours after getting dressed, the guilt and shame hit and the clothes came off. Just for reference, this was always connected to bondage also, and it was tough to seperate the two to figure out where the fetish actually came from.
As a young adult, I prayed to God on many occasions to change me to a girl. My first wife and I had many conversations about the idea of transition and if I could be successful with it, but I was not accepting enough of my issues to have ever been able to do it.
The older I got, the easier it was to seperate the bondage issue from the "dressing" issue. The CDing slowly became less and less a fetish, and more a "it just feels right" thing. At this point in my life, middle age (52) I'd say that I'm about as girly as any other middle aged woman. I get dressed up once in a while just to look good (good for the ego) but most of the time I'm comfortable in my jeans and T-shirts, like most women my age.
Now that I've been on T-blockers and estrogen for about 8 months, I nolonger have any sex drive. The bondage fetish is completely a non-issue now, but I'm more serious about transition then I have ever been in my life. That's where I'm coming from with the following answers.
I think MTF CDers fall into 3 basic catagories, and these catagories overlap to some extent. The fetish driven CD, the hidden (or not so hidden) TG, and those that don't fit either of those catagories. My personal opinion is that the 3rd catagory is mostly about denial of fitting into one of the 2 other catagories, but that's just my personal opinion.
The fetish driven CDer does it for the obvious reasons, it may be more complicated then that because of overlap, but you get the picture.
The TG driven person does it as part of the entire experience of being TG in the first place. I believe this is a much more complex area then the fetish area.
The going out in public thing has a lot to do with validating who you think you are, and many people get their validation from outside themselves. We have such a basic lack of self respect that we can only get it externally until we really come to terms with who we are and learn to finally like ourself for who we are. Many people never get to this point, and not just in the CD world. I really can understand how you feel hurt about your opinion and acceptance not being enough for your SO, but that outside acceptance is so important when you have a self respect issue.
That whole "if you don't like it, then leave" issue has mostly to do with defensiveness with a dash of selfishness, 2 things we're really good at. A combination of lack of self respect and pink fog makes for a really ugly combination in a relationship. Both of those things are hard for us to deal with, even when we know that we're doing it, they're almost instinctive reactions to confrontation about Cding, and most other things, come to think of it.
I agree with the other posts that talk about inappropriate clothing being part of the "delayed female adolescense" and, if the primary reason for CDing is fetish in nature, it's a turn on. I don't wear some of the things that I used to wear now because I'm not "turned on" by them now.
Just so you know, dressing androgenously is probably the easiest thing, but it won't get you IDed as female unless you look female. I think I get IDed as a gay man mostly, but then, I don't wear my wig and put on any makeup, I'm missing a fair amount of hair, and I still have a lot of beard shadow.
How others see me is their problem, not mine.
To me, I think associating activitys with a certain gender is a form of overcompensating for a CDer's sense of guilt and shame. Some of the great cooks are men and some women really enjoy "playing with guns". Women ride Harleys, they enjoy football (some of the most rabid Packer fans that I know are women, they'll beat you up if you diss Brett Farve!) It tends to be more of a cultural thing then a gender thing, except when a CDer thinks that a certain activity might "out" him, just overcompensation for that. I was like that for many years.
These are just my own opinions from my own experience, of course, everyone sees it a bit different.

[Marla S]

A lot of the response reinforces my fear that perhaps all CD's are transexuals in denial.

So much of the crossdresser's life is baffeling in the context of identifying as a heterosexual man. It would be easier if the CD would just say "hey I'm a transexual" then you could just get on with life instead of waiting for the boom to drop or to keep trying to understand and wrap your mind around this whole phenomenon

.

"It would be easier".
I think this is a crucial statement.
IMO, yes it would be easier from a certain point of view, even for the SOs, because it is a clear and simple statement that doesn't really violate the gender norms and social settings and hence it is more easy to "understand".

"Just have SRS, and everything is according to the norms again"
"Just pass as a woman and everything is according to the norms again".

Most likely there are some CDs that are actually transsexuals in denial, but I am convinced that there are by far more CDs that desperately that try to present themselves as a woman are actually men in denial.

Meaning the constant pressure of justification, self-justification, explanations , the lack of a normal development of male femininity, the usually temporal restricted chance to dress, the "urge driven" expression of feminity etc. will lead in quite a few cases to the at least temporary denial of the male part of the personality.

I am convinced that most of the problems and questions for the CDs and SOs, impulsive behaviors etc. would vanish into thin air, if a "normal development of male feminity" would be (would have been) possible.

[sobe1ove GG]

Wow! I'm having such awesome replies. Thanks everyone! I look forward to hearing more.


Sobe

[AmberTG]

You know Marla, that's an aspect of the CD issue that I hadn't thought of, and might fit me to a certain extent. I would put that in my 3rd catagory, not fetish driven, but not quite TG either. But then, from a certain point of view, a "feminine man" could be considered as fitting into the TG spectrum. It may be simply a matter of point-of-view on this.
I do think I'd still want to transition though.

[sobe1ove GG]

.

"It would be easier".
I think this is a crucial statement.
IMO, yes it would be easier from a certain point of view, even for the SOs, because it is a clear and simple statement that doesn't really violate the gender norms and social settings and hence it is more easy to "understand".

"Just have SRS, and everything is according to the norms again"
"Just pass as a woman and everything is according to the norms again".

For me, it would be easier to know because then I wouldn't have to constantly worry. Right now, my Leah B is confused about whether he is TS or not. And, I don't want to be with him if he is and plans to live full time as a woman.

Frankly, I would like to know as soon as possible so that I don't waste all this time for a futile end. Know what I mean?

[AmberTG]

I can completely understand where you're coming from Sobe, my ex was the same. I know she had needs that I was unable to fill, sometimes, that's just the way life is. You need to have a satisfying life also.

[Victoria Anne]

Sobe , what a wonderful question , thought inspiring to say the least. I wish I could offer you an awnser but I just cannot so I do offer you my thanks for the question and to all for the replies , it gives one pause for thought on there dressing and te reasons why in many different aspects , thankyou.

Viccy

[MJ]

PREFACE:
Hi! Now, I know people say how you shouldn't seek answers to the 'why' when it comes to CDing or TGs, but, I still have some questions.

Yes, I already know that everyone is different and that each person has a different experience.
--------------------

Alright. I have known about my boyfriend, Leah B, being a cross dresser for a little over a year. He only started actually doing anything with it last May.

Over the course of the last couple of months, we've talked a lot about what it is to be a cross dresser and transgendered. I've also heard a lot of things on these boards. Some of it I totally get, other stuff, I don't.

Here's the things I don't get, so that some of you might be able to educate me:

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

OK so some of us need to think before we open our mouth i see what your saying how can we be one of the girls without the clothes

- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

i am sorry i don't get that !!! . ""He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. "" whats next like me i need the surgery to feel complete !!! one step at a time Leah

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.

Just COMPROMISE. you can't do that in the bedroom , you can't go out side like that ... you can't put pictures on the net .. you can't wear makeup , you can't drive like that !!!
how about the gg take a step of Faith and stand by there wo /man and take one for our side instead of tighten the ball and chain

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what cross dressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

hey sobe did you know most cd'r dress like the woman they would like to go out with so what does that tell you !!!!
i wear panty hose because they give my legs some color and they look nice and Evan in tone let me tell you if i had found a gg who wears short skirts hose and heels well would i be doing this " sorry a little joke " maybe we are trying to teach you gg how to dress please don't kill me i am just saying

- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

OK confession time i dress full time and it's bloody hard ... yes as Leah said to pull it off ...the androgynous side of the female identity. would make life better don't you think hey sobe how are we hiding from our self's i don't understand are you saying all cd'r are girls in the wrong bodies ?

- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.
now sobe you are trying to get in the head of a man ?? bad idea let me tell you something men are men they like to do the rough stuff try to fix things fight ,want to put as many notches on there belts in regards to woman they don't want to become a woman they want to do them.. real men never play with Barbie or cook / clean thats womans work and another thing BOYs live by one set of rules .. GIRLs live by another .... thats why we are in this mess in the first place... i wish we could change that but we have a long way to go
------

Okay, I'm done. I realize that I can sometimes be abrasive in the language I choose, and I am sorry in advance for offending anyone. Feel free to tell me your side of these issues so that I can better understand what it means to be an MTF CD/TG/TS and so on.

Thanks!

Sobe

i hope i don't offend anybody , but here is what i don't get .. have you notice the length of most m to f posts and replies ? and go take a look at the f to m posts and replies !!! one would think it would be reversed no ? thats no offense to your long post

[MarinaTwelve200]

PREFACE:
Hi! Now, I know people say how you shouldn't seek answers to the 'why' when it comes to CDing or TGs, but, I still have some questions.

Yes, I already know that everyone is different and that each person has a different experience.

Who says you shouldn't ask WHY? Thats a silly , non-scientific approach or cop out. Sure the answers are usually complex, but an understanding can go a long way in dealing with CDing. CDing is not what one IS but what one does in response to about a dosen or so, and very different underlying mental conditions. Its an INDICATOR of an anomaly, and identification of the anomaly say, just thrill seeking, to full blown Transsexualisim is important if you can do it.

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them..

CDing upsets the average, uneducated person---They think it means the CDer is gay!----and keeping it secret to boot===NOT a good thing for a susposedly hetro relationship. Of course CD=gay is a MYTH, but many people dont know that because they really dont know what gay means and this causes a lot of needless troubles.

- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did..

CDers CD for different reasons. A transsexual would want DIFFERENT things from CDing that a thrill seeker or escapist. That explains why there are "oddities" and an apparent lack of consistancy from CD to CD---As they are being driven by different motives.

- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

------

Okay, I'm done. I realize that I can sometimes be abrasive in the language I choose, and I am sorry in advance for offending anyone. Feel free to tell me your side of these issues so that I can better understand what it means to be an MTF CD/TG/TS and so on.

Thanks!

Sobe

All you need to remember is that There are different REASONS for CDing and that affects the CD pattern of the individual. People may CD because they are Transsexual, To address their "Fem Side", To ESCAPE Themselves, or their "male side", to "relax', to satisify a fetish, Part of an SM fantasy, or a simple turn on, or thrill.------

Its HARD to know what reason it is because the mind will fool itself. The man who declares he "wants to be a woman", for example, may really be a Transsexual---OR NOT-- thats the only way he knows to get a certain sexual THRILL.=====very different REAL motives. Some folks give up on figguring out why.

[MJ]

For me, it would be easier to know because then I wouldn't have to constantly worry. Right now, my Leah B is confused about whether he is TS or not. And, I don't want to be with him if he is and plans to live full time as a woman.

Frankly, I would like to know as soon as possible so that I don't waste all this time for a futile end. Know what I mean?

why say that !!! you do know there are toys .. and you have a best friend and she is already house broken

[WyomingDiva]

A lot of the response reinforces my fear that perhaps all CD's are transexuals in denial.

This is one of my concerns about my SO...he says not, but as he comes 'out' to me more, it appears this might be true.

For example, he wants breasts and takes herbs to help with that and also talks about having surgery to have implants. I don't know what to think...

This is an informative thread, esp. for a newbie like me...keep it coming!

[RebeccaLynne]

.


I am convinced that most of the problems and questions for the CDs and SOs, impulsive behaviors etc. would vanish into thin air, if a "normal development of male feminity" would be (would have been) possible.

Sobe, I believe Marla has provided some valuable insight here.
The upbringing of males in modern society is strictly defined. No tolerance of feminine qualities is acceptable. A young girl's interest in so-called "masculine" endeavors, i.e., sports, rough and tumble play, etc., is considered 'tomboyish', and of no detriment. A young boy's interest in feminine areas, i.e., fashion, playing with dolls, etc., is deemed "girlish", and, as such, somehow reprehensible.
A double standard exists.
And we'd all be better off if it didn't.