Question for everyone except GG's ;)

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

I have to say that there are some very diverse responses to my questions. Some things I had not considered, but highly informative all around.

Seriously, thank you for responding

Zarabeth

[Marla S]

I know women whose heads would explode at hearing such a definition. It's reproductive essentialism at its worst, and it's completely invalidating of women who are sterile for any reason.

Tell that the parents that give their daughters dolls to play with and tell them "now you are a woman" when their daughter had her first menstrual period.

Other than that Nicki said "the potential". That is quite right, IMO and has nothing to do with misogyny.
Upbringing of girls is based to a good part on that potential. Like it or not, that's the way it is. Whether this potential can be honored later is a complete different question. If not, for medical reasons, it will cause identity problems, indicating that it is an important (not the only though) part of the identity.

If you like turn the argument around and tell girls: "Your potential is pointless and unimportant"
How many would agree or would not feel insulted or dishonored?

As one of my favorite authors on the roles women in ancient times would put it, you have subscribed to the concept of women as being creatures that exist to bleed and breed -- a mysogynistic concept that has been used throughout time to justify the enslavement and oppression of women.

That's an over-interpretation IMO.

Also, to avoid being completely hypocritical, one must also conclude that sterile men are not real men, either.

This conclusion is quite right. How many men undergo sterilization despite it is less risky for men? Not many, and those few who do usually need years to adjust to this idea to become "less of a man". Why there isn't any widely accepted birth control method for men ? Instead birth control is usually the duty of women with all side effects it can have.

Like it or not, our and every other culture is based on reproduction, because that's the biological meaning of male and female. The fact that we are able to think and develop a culture beyond biological requirements is precisely the problem that defining and redefining men and women is an ongoing and probably never ending process. One that only can be solved on a personal, but not a general level IMO, because any definition needs criteria. You will always find someone who fails to fulfill these criteria but needs to get a particular label nevertheless. --> redefining.

[Nicki B]

I know women whose heads would explode at hearing such a definition. It's reproductive essentialism at its worst, and it's completely invalidating of women who are sterile for any reason.

I'm not quite sure what 'reproductive essentialism' is - but I think telling most women that what they are has absolutely nothing to do with the potential to give birth is likely to make them feel insulted? Nowhere did I, nor would I, say that's all that a woman is?

That's why I tried to focus the discussion on femininity? Surely a 'woman' is the combination of a female sex and a feminine gender?

As one of my favorite authors on the roles women in ancient times would put it, you have subscribed to the concept of women as being creatures that exist to bleed and breed -- a mysogynistic concept that has been used throughout time to justify the enslavement and oppression of women.

I was more trying to include the viewpoint of many TS friends of mine - who've all seemed to get incredibly broody, once they're post-op?

[RobertaFermina]

Well, as I intimated in my thread above, at least some of it's about having the potential to have babies - which is why having a hysterectomy, mastectomies, or any other reproductive problems can be so destructive to a woman's psyche?

I know women whose heads would explode at hearing such a definition. It's reproductive essentialism at its worst, and it's completely invalidating of women who are sterile for any reason.[SNIP!]

I'd expand on what Nicki B said by adding: by adding "innately formed and intended to have babies....."

Even when a woman is sterile, her being remains intact. Some feel a loss, in sterility, others don't.

Even if a woman doesn't bring her feminine being and abilities to bearing children, she may bring it to rearing them, or apply them in a completely different direction, giving life and nurturing to Art, Corporations, Political Careers.....

Men create and nurture as well, yet *typically* in a different way a woman can.



"Vive la Difference!"

[Michelia]

concepts are, and as deep as they are, I really cannot buy into many of them. I did love and enjoy reading them. They are all food for thought.

I guess I am a simpler human.

To me a woman is my mother, my wife, my daughter. They are women. But what a different lot they are. My daughter is 11 and loves to look femme. My wife gets irked by this. She gets even more irked when I buy my daughter the sexy sandals she wants but my wife will not buy for her. My wife is happy in jeans and t-shirt but is an intellectual and loves beautiful earrings. Being a woman for her is when she takes the clothes off. My mother was naturally sexy and feminine. She never even tried to look the part. My ex was cool, distant, exacting. Emotionally, I was always the woman of the house.

That said, I think there are all kinds of women. Whether the differences amongst themselves and between them are men, emotionally or mentally speaking, are innate or learned will be an eternal subject of debate. There are differences in hormones and these do change our behaviors.

I always knew I was different. I never played with dolls or wore girlie clothing when young. But I was profoundly sensitive. I was always one to touch and express my feelings. When I developed sexually, I found later I came like a girl. I found myself being into caressing and fondling and was told by many a lover that making love to me was like they imagined it would be with another woman.

Crossdressing as an adult has allowed my femininity to be expressed more fully. If I sometimes dress with too short a skirt and piggytails, it is not just sexually induced, it is a means to express the most feminine bits that lurk within and want to get out. Call it my latent teens. I would love to be able to further this by going out dressed as "feminine" as possible. Letting everyone know this is me and I am OK. By "feminine" I mean what feels feminine to me. This means something different to all of us, including the women in my life.

Besides wanting to get out more, I would love to dress more often and go out with my SO as two girls, which she really wants to do. Fear keeps me from doing this. Other than that I am happy with the balance. I do not want to be too much more woman than I am at present, although I would like more time being one. My little boy was telling me yesterday that he loves the way I kiss him and hug him. That the other fathers in his class are mean to their kids. I do not know what he means by all this, but it still feels good to hear it. My girl thinks she is the luckiest to have a stepfather that buys Seventeen and buys her girlie things.

Oh, and I KNOW I will NEVER know what it is like to be woman. Just do not remind me so. I do not want to hear it. When I am dressed, I AM a woman.

Michelia