Discrimination from WITHIN the gender community

[kay_jessica]

If you think about it it is an extremely narrowed few.

That is like every woman has to be considered a prostitute because some women are prostitutes.
That is like every men is an exhibitionist, because some men are exhibitionists.
That is like all humans are murders, because there are some murders among human beings.

I think it is an expression of the lack of ability to define yourself by yourself. An exaggerated dependency on others which you use to define yourself. The consequence is that you have to higher some and lower others in order to make the "generalized" border more obvious and justify your being.

Excuse me. Where on this planet do you get that from. I certainly do not depend on fetish hairy panty wearers to justify my existence. As for defining my self I am totatly at ease with who and what I am. I don't hide behind any closet. The profile pic of me is me and there are plenty of girls that can confirm it. I am merely stating a fact and I'll make absolutely clear. On Friday afternoon in Milton Keynes Centre there were no less than 6 CDers prancing around as though they were gods gift to transism. People were laughing at them. They had no clue what to wear and how to present themselves as female in public. Their skirts were so short and tight that you saw their panties and stocking tops (not just a glimps). Bulges in their fronts you could hang your coat on. And they expected to be treated like girls. Consequently, when I went legitimately to a store I have shopped in many times the SA asked me not to try on a dress I wanted to buy and that was because they are fed up with CDers taking taking piss. Give us a break. If people want to go out like that then I do not blame any TS for not wanting to ever risk associating with a CDer incase that CDer turns up dressed as he wants his fantasy girl to dress. We are there all the time, we have to live with the consequencies of a HPW flashing a bit of dick around every time there is a tranny night at a local club.

[kay_jessica]

Do not judge a whole community by a relative few.

But we are being judged by the action of that that few and its pissing me off.

[Sally24]

Everybody, no matter what type of "group" they belong to, are frequently judged by the worst of their "type". It's just human nature to remember the bad and apply it to others in the future. It's not right, but it is pretty common.

I have seen many CD's that I would not want to hang out with in public. Their attitude, their presentation, their innappropriate fashions. I just don't apply that to anybody else but them. I try to judge each person by themselves and that works pretty well for me.

TS have their own set of problems and being that they are full time, they probably have a right to be cautious. That doesn't require being rude, mean, or bigoted. You can be careful with who you associate with and still be a class act.

This girl was probably a jerk before and is still a jerk. Move on and don't take it personal.

[Wendy me]

Kay my dear i love you and accept you for just who you are i truly do .... but my dear you and that kinda thinking is what is bring us all down..... so cross dressers ain't on Your level ...and they "MIGHT' do say or wear and act in a way that pisses you off ?????

I certainly do not depend on fetish hairy pantie wearers to justify my existence. As for defining my self I am totatly at ease with who and what I am. I don't hide behind any closet.


your rude and nasty on so many ways ...... excuse your self .... be more thoughtful as to who's home you just shit in ..... look around here see were the flying fuc* you are.... you ( and i won't stoop so low as to include any one with you) have just insulted most of our members here ....

might your existence on God's green earth lead you to the point in your life were your eyes open to see the wrongs you spread with a close mind..... truly sad .... truly sad.....

[PeggySue]

Hi Alicia,

I'm sorry you got such a harsh response. That is too bad they had to let their anger come out. You don't deserve it. Some people have trouble controlling themselves.
You are Ok in my book. Just stick with us.
Hugs,
PeggySue

[Marla S]

Excuse me. Where on this planet do you get that from. I certainly do not depend on fetish hairy panty wearers to justify my existence. As for defining my self I am totatly at ease with who and what I am. I don't hide behind any closet. The profile pic of me is me and there are plenty of girls that can confirm it. I am merely stating a fact and I'll make absolutely clear. On Friday afternoon in Milton Keynes Centre there were no less than 6 CDers prancing around as though they were gods gift to transism. People were laughing at them. They had no clue what to wear and how to present themselves as female in public. Their skirts were so short and tight that you saw their panties and stocking tops (not just a glimps). Bulges in their fronts you could hang your coat on. And they expected to be treated like girls. Consequently, when I went legitimately to a store I have shopped in many times the SA asked me not to try on a dress I want to buy and that was because they are fed up with CDers taking taking piss. Give us a break. If people want to go out like that then I do not blame any TS for not wanting to ever risk associating with a CDer incase that CDer turns up dressed as he wants his fantasy girl to dress. We are there all the time, we have to live with the consequencies of a HPW flashing a bit of dick around every time there is a tranny night at a local club.

Please accept my apology and sorry, for phrasing badly. That was not in particular aimed at you.

On the other side if I judge a particular behavior in the wrong way, I can't moan about being judged in the wrong way.

If there are some idiots prowl around in fem clothes, is it because of the clothes or because they are idiots, and would also be in drab ?

Yep it is giving us a hard time sometimes, but the way out is not to aim that on the appearance but on the behavior, which is inappropriate in any mode.
Otherwise we have to say the incident happened to Alicia is completaly justified, because it follows the same pattern.
And it would also be justified to say that any GM should not wear fem clothes at all and it doesn't matter whether he identifys as CD or TS, because just this will piss some off and will give some a bad image ... never had trouble with loosing job, friends, family ???????
The boss doesn't want to have is business identified with trans people, "friends" don't want to be seen with a "freak", family feels embarrassed or hurt. It is the same way of thinking and judging.

Applying this way of thinking makes it hard to draw a line what is allowed and what not.

My way out is to convince others by my own personality and not by presentations, behaviors, or bad manners of others.

[SweetCaroline]

I'm a straight male CD, and maybe it's just the circle I belong to, but I've never met anyone who was TS, full-time, FTM, Bi, gay, or however they choose to define themselves, who wasn't sympathetic and understanding to what we go through as cross-dressers, in spite of rumors that some groups were snobbish or unfriendly.

I tend to agree with the others and chalk it up as a "don't judge a group by one jerk" instance. Some of us have been heckled and harassed by straight, non-CD men, does that mean that all CD men hate us? I think not.

[Billie1]

I agree, and have experienced firsthand, that 'eliteism' exists in individuals regarding CD'ing. After further review, however, my conclusion was that this is a rather narrow-minded and selfish perspective that certain individuals seem to carry with them. I do understand that the flamboyant drag queens and exhibitionists do not help with any positive attitudes, but judging an entire group by one particular segment is not fair, either. The person who made the 'fetish' statement is a CD entertainer, with breat implants, undergoing hormone therapy, but with no intent of SRS. In other words, what's the diff? I was initially hurt and confused, but then, my feelings turned to resentment and distain - almost down to her level.

Luckily, however, it makes me appreciate the wonderful, supportive and understanding group that we have here all the more. Thanks, girlz!

[kay_jessica]

Kay my dear i love you and accept you for just who you are i truly do .... but my dear you and that kinda thinking is what is bring us all down..... so cross dressers ain't on Your level ...and they "MIGHT' do say or wear and act in a way that pisses you off ?????

I certainly do not depend on fetish hairy pantie wearers to justify my existence. As for defining my self I am totatly at ease with who and what I am. I don't hide behind any closet.


your rude and nasty on so many ways ...... excuse your self .... be more thoughtful as to who's home you just shit in ..... look around here see were the flying fuc* you are.... you ( and i won't stoop so low as to include any one with you) have just insulted most of our members here ....

might your existence on God's green earth lead you to the point in your life were your eyes open to see the wrongs you spread with a close mind..... truly sad .... truly sad.....

What is truly sad is that people don't like the truth. And the truth is that there are some that just can't hack it, They are told they look gorgeous even when they asked for an "honest" comment. I know exactly where I am. I know many girls on this site and I like and respect them. Some are in the closet and others are more open. I respect them because they don't pretend to be something they are not. Maybe I was a bit harsh when I said I don't hide in the closet, but I am here to and it saddens me that we as a community aren't honest to others on here.

Alicia made a post about being shunned by a TS. I am just putting over a reason why some TS's would'd be seen dead with a CDer. The truth can be brutal, but as I said in an earlier post if exhibitionist HPW are occasionally out and make a spectacle of them selves it effects those of us who live and work in the community. We get tarred with the same brush.

I appreciate that many girls here don't go out, so you can not appreciate what it is like to be totally accepted within a community. Yes girls take their first steps out dressed and they may or may not pass, but that is not the important thing about being out. What is important is how you fit in with the community at large. People do not like nonconformity thrust into their faces. You may not have the figure or looks to pass as a woman, but so long as you present "normal" then bye enlarge you'll be accepted. And yes I resent having that acceptance taken away from me by the inconsiderate.

[Marla S]

I appreciate that many girls here don't go out, so you can not appreciate what it is like to be totally accepted within a community. Yes girls take their first steps out dressed and they may or may not pass, but that is not the important thing about being out. What is important is how you fit in with the community at large. People do not like nonconformity thrust into their faces. You may not have the figure or looks to pass as a woman, but so long as you present "normal" then bye enlarge you'll be accepted. And yes I resent having that acceptance taken away from me by the inconsiderate.

A transperson doesn't fit in the community which is called society and a transperson is not considered normal by the community society. Being trans gives our families and friends a hard time and is considered inappropriate.
If this arguments hold true, we all should purge and present the gender that is determined by our sex. End of transpersons in public. Period.

[kay_jessica]

A transperson doesn't fit in the community which is called society and a transperson is not considered normal by the community society. Being trans gives our families and friends a hard time and is considered inappropriate.
If this arguments hold true, we all should purge and present the gender that is determined by our sex. End of trans person in public. Period.

I disagree, I know 20 or so TS's (pre op to post op) within a 20 mile radius of where I live and many more out with. We are accepted within our communities. We have normal jobs, normal lives. Some know that we are trans but don't care. There were SAs in that very same shop on Friday that knew me and served me because they accepted me regardless of the directive from above. They were the ones that told me about the problems with the "others". Never the less I still resented being barred from the other dressing room because of them.

[Marla S]

I disagree, I know 20 or so TS's (pre op to post op) within a 20 mile radius of where I live and many more out with. We are accepted within our communities. We have normal jobs, normal lives. Some know that we are trans but don't care. There were SAs in that very same shop on Friday that knew me and served me because they accepted me regardless of the directive from above. They were the ones that told me about the problems with the "others". Never the less I still resented being barred from the other dressing room because of them.

That is a good thing, I am happy for you and the others, and it shows that some "normal folks" is more tolerant and has a less narrow view than some TG folks. So, there is hope.

[AmberTG]

My thought on the issue that started this thread is that young person has self esteem issues and needs to seperate herself from the "lowly CDers" in order to be able to be comfortable with her own gender issues. She probably justifys her gender issues by saying that she's a girl on the inside so it's ok for her to be what she is. That opinion seems to be too common on various websites, but it's wrong. There is no black or white on the gender spectrum, just many shades of gray.
Just because I call myself a transgendered person does not make me one bit better then a CDer. Any time I would start to think like that, I'd better remind myself that I was a CDer for 30 years before I knew there was a different description for my gender issues.
AS far as associating with another non-TS CDer, that depends entirely on the person. There's a lot of "regular" people that I wouldn't associate with also, depending on the person, the CDing issue isn't very important, the person's attitudes toward life issues would be much more important.

[Amanda Shaft]

Have I got this right? A pre op TS trumps a CD, a post op TS trumps a pre op TS, a GG trumps a TS, a GM trumps a GG, and a CD trumps a GM? and those panty loving lowlife don't trump anyone.
Amanda

[Joy Carter]

Civility..Acceptance..Respect..Tolerance

Some of the most important words to live by. I make a stand when its necessary, but I won't let another's opinions ruin my day.
You can't change someone no matter how wrong they maybe. That is on them.

[AmberTG]

I agree with Joy on this one!
Just because you have an opinion, doesn't make it right! Unless, of course, you're my "born again" ex father-in-law.

[Holly]

What is really sad is that this thread is doing nothing more than perpetuate the "us verses them" attitude so many are fighting so had to abolish. It appears that there are still those who feel that if another's trans activity does not fit within their ideal definition then it must be deemed inappropriate and therefore damaging. How self-centered and egotistical!

[Tamara Croft]

Whilst I don't agree with a lot of the things you have said, you have also come across as an elitist TS, I do have to agree with this quote.

What is truly sad is that people don't like the truth. And the truth is that there are some that just can't hack it, They are told they look gorgeous even when they asked for an "honest" comment. I know exactly where I am. I know many girls on this site and I like and respect them. Some are in the closet and others are more open. I respect them because they don't pretend to be something they are not. Maybe I was a bit harsh when I said I don't hide in the closet, but I am here to and it saddens me that we as a community aren't honest to others on here.

It is a sad, but true fact, I have seen some pictures on this forum that people have said... oh wow you look fantastic... that person 'doesn't' look fantastic and then said person goes out looking like that and gets ridiculed... I don't want to sound mean and I know people come here looking for support and want to hear the 'oh you look great' comments, but let's face the facts, if you are coming here for support to go 'out in the community'... you should be giving people realistic comments.

I have seen a few TS that don't want to be seen with CD's, I've seen it on this forum, but even though we are all a community, isn't that the TS actual right? I wouldn't want to be seen out with a CD that looked like a clown and acted like a complete idiot... that may be elitist, or whatever, but isn't that my choice who I want to be seen with?

Those with children think about this... how many times have you said to them... 'if you're coming out with me, you aren't going out like that!!!'... and you make them go get changed to look at least half respectable?

[Genifer Teal]

I feel I have some insight as I know a few who transitioned.

First, I will say this persons actions we inappropriate. There is no reason to be like that even if you want to steer clear of CDs. Secondly, this attitude does not represent all TS women. With that said, I can explain a little of her perspective.

For a TS, it is all about being a woman and being percieved only as a woman every minute of every day, all the time. For them passing is PARAMOUNT. Stealth is the best path to success. If at any time they are potentially percieved otherwise, their whole world can be turned upsidedown. This can and does include their friends, living situation, carrer - their entire life. Many TSs who came up through the CD ranks leave those friends behind. They feel a need to avoid any visible connection to their male past. To be seen with a CDer could start people thinking and they might make the connection to the TS's past.

Not every TS can be total stealth. For each there may be some peoeple who know their history. When most of us CDs are out there, we are obvious. People notice us. Since the public doesn't know any better, they lump the CDs, TVs and TSs together, including the guy driving naked in panties & a bra at 2 am. How do you explain that to someone? How do you stop them from thinking you did that too or that is what you really are?

Imagine your SO discovered your CDing on her own and came here to do research. Your first concern would be to let her know where you fit in the wide spectrum of CDing represented here. She might think you want sex with guys, she might think you will definately transition some day, she might think its a quick sexual thrill. None of this might be correct and much of it might be worse (to her) than your actual situation. Now imagine you are never allowed to explain where you fit in to her. What if she packed her things and left, never to speak to you again? You would feel like that is so unfair, you don't know what I'm like.

Welcome to the TS mind set. This is what we do for them when we go out and the public sees us. We open the book and the public gets to pick and chooses what to belive. The TSs get stuck handling damage control and it is them against society. They need to explain themselves to everyone. We all try hard to look our best. We also know that is not easy. For those of us who trek out into society, how did you look your first time out? That fuels the publics perception of all of us.

Society is harsh and unforgiving. The TS's deal with it every day. Some of us deal with it occasionaly, some never. I am not justifying this girls behavior. Hopefully I have given some insight as to where it comes from.

Gen

[SiobhanW]

including the guy driving naked in panties & a bra at 2 am

Yeah, sorry about that. It won't happen again.

Signed,
Fetish hairy panty wearer.

[Mary Morgan]

In the final analysis, no one can hold me back or keep me down, or subordinate me unless I give them the power to do so. The real message here for all of us is not to be like that when we encounter something with which we are ignorant, or someone with whom we are uncomfortable. We can be better than that.

[AmberTG]

Genifer, I think you're pretty much right on the mark! It's not easy being green!

Tamara, once again, you've brought up a very important observation about this sight! I really don't want people "blowing smoke up my ass" with my looks or my pictures! If I'm ever to be sucessful in my presentation, I need honesty, maybe not brutal honesty, we all do have feelings after all, but honesty when I post a picture.
I'll be quite honest here, there are some pictures here that make me cringe when I see them, sorry, but that's just me. I don't think I'm any better then they are, I cringe at my own pictures also, I know my own faults all too well. I refuse to tell someone that they're beautiful when they don't look that way to me! I just choose to shut my mouth and keep my comments to myself rather then hurt someone else's feelings.

[Megan70]

I've seen the same thing here in my city in Upstate NY., but on a limited much narrow minded view, and they were by popular Drag Queens that are regular performers at some clubs. One was quote in an interview in the paper as saying "CDs give me the willies". They cannot for the life of them understand why a non-gay man would want to wear womans clothes and makeup for pleasure and relaxation , and get some sexual gratification from it. They don't. With them its a job, they go backstage after finished a nights performance, change into drab and go home with their male lover. A job, a performance -thats it, no more. "what is this cross dressing thing all about bloke? I don't understand it?"

Conversely I am always welcomed by lesbians and FTM transmasuline folk. They have a better understanding it seems , even though it does not dwelve as deeply into our sexuality and gender as theirs. Some gay bars also seem to stop dead and have eyes turn at you when you walk in.... exit stage right!.
The world is a funny place , and we ourselves are considered to some "funny, odd" people, and that is why the discriminating treatment.
Move on I say.
Love
Megan

[Genifer Teal]

This whole lowest common denominator - guilt by association thing can be carried further. It has everything to do with why ENDA may not pass. Employers fear having to let any employee who wants to wear a dress do so. It is one thing to let a passable TS dress appropriately in the office. What about the big hairy masculine guy who wants to do the same? It is not a matter of personal acceptance, it is societies accpetance on the whole. You could loose business because people don't want to deal with that individual. That is why so many are against it.

The same can be said for bathroom laws. NYC gives us the right to use the facility of the gender we represent. Should this give ANYONE the righ to throw on a wig and enter the ladies room? How do you write a law which distinguished between the two situations? It is a difficult world we live in. Our society is unforgivignng.

Gen

[kay_jessica]

..........

Society is harsh and unforgiving. The TS's deal with it every day. Some of us deal with it occasionaly, some never. I am not justifying this girls behavior. Hopefully I have given some insight as to where it comes from.

Gen

This is so true, and in my experiance on Friday, my world was turned upside down because of those exhibitionist, there behaviour, trying clothes that they weren't going to buy upset the management of my favorite store so much that ALL men dressed as women were barred from the dressing rooms. I pass very well normally, and my mind boggles as to what those 6 got up to to cause such a backlash.

Tamara, I'm sorry if I come across as an elitist. I am not, I'm just a TS trying to get on in life without being compromised. I have some good CD friends that I will go out with. One is a hard core goth, but what she and my other CD friends don't do is thrust their panties in the general publics faces.