Crossdressing why the big fuss?

[Tristen Cox]

I'm going to say this as nicely as possible. This is a place for discussion NOT a place for people to FORCE their views upon others and argue about it. Just because you believe something, others do not have to. It is not a requirement. State your OPINIONS and leave it at that unless you have something to discuss otherwise. Opinions are not proof, hence the have no bearing to argue over. And above all, respect the other members here. Or I will close this topic. This is supposed to be a friendly supportive place. Can we act like it?

[Melissa A.]

I don't know... maybe this will get me in trouble, but I don't think this thread was uncivilized or mean at all. There are lots of strong opinions, and some dissagreements, but I don't see any unecessary attacks, name calling, etc. I didn't(and this is subjective, I know) percieve anyone forcing their views on anyone.

Any discussion or debate involving opinions, by necessity, will result in people comparing their opinions to the one's already stated. I think that is more healthy debate than forcing opinions on people. I certainly don't think that my opinions are more fact than anyone else's. I write them to a) state what I think about a subject,and maybe help people see the validity I see in it, and b) to get feedback so I can maybe be enlightened to another, just as valid point of view.
I'm perfectly willing to change my mind about some stuff if someone points out something I hadn't thought of. As long as it is done in a civilised, respectful way.

Having said that, you can't always come accross as "nice" when dissagreeing with someone. But you can still be respectful.

We're all big girls here, and as long as a disscussion doesn't degenerate into name calling, or shouting accusations at one another, I don't see a problem with debating and dissagreements, even strong dissagreements. I welcome differing points of view.

I guess I said all this because I enjoyed reading and writing on this thread. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think it got out of hand.

The same girls who gave very strong opinions on this thread, and gave their critique of other's opinions (still don't see anything wrong with that) are some of the same girls who have been so helpful, supportive, enlightening, funny, goofy, and irreverent in many of their earlier posts. There is a time to be supportive, time to be funny, and a time to debate the issues that confront all of us, hopefully for the better.

I'm sorry if I'm the odd woman out here. But I thought this was a great thread. Guess I could be wrong. If I wrote anything here that really hurt anyone, I am terribley, sincerely sorry. But I still don't see that anyone did that on this thread. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

Hugs,

Melissa
.

[MonaSmith]

Well said Melissa, I agree with you wholeheartedly. We are all big girls here and as long as we are all capable of moderating ourselves, which is mostly what was in evidence on this thread, I don't see that informed discussion can be anything other that good for us all.

At work I just did a diversity training course and, for the most part, it was interesting but not earth shatteringly eyeopening, but it did raise the point that it is okay to differ in opinions by saying "I don't agree with what you are saying" rather than "I don't agree with you". It is a small point but it makes the discussion much less about personal attacks and much more about exchanging ideas and opinions. If we all keep it non-personal, then we shouldn't have any major problems.

Let's not blow all this out of proportion, this forum is better than that.

Mona xx.

[Tamara Croft]

This most certainly is not true. There is no way you will ever convince me or anyone else here that you have seen "just as many" emotional men in your life as women. I'm certain we all know better than to buy into this one...

This is the sort of statement I think Tristen is talking about. Carrah, you can't say that it isn't true as you don't know her and her friends. Just because you may not know any emotional men, does not mean someone else doesn't. It's the same as you telling me that I've never wanted to be a man and telling me that I'm unique because of it. Those are your beliefs not ours.

The title of this thread is 'Crossdressing, what's all the big fuss' lets try to keep to the topic without winding up members and telling them what they are saying is inaccurate.

Tamara x

[Melissa A.]

Not only that, But she also said, "there is no way you will ever convince me or anyone else here...." How do you know what I can or cannot be convinced of, Carrah?

So maybe Tristen did Have reason to chime in here, and remind us to respect eachother's opinions. Thank you for pointing that out, Tamara. Guess I didn't read as closely as I had thought.

But I still think Mona's point about moderating ourselves holds true most of the time, and I still think this was a great thread that, a couple of wayward statements notwithstanding, did not cross the line into chaos. I found it interesting reading. And I actually thought Carrah had some interesting things to say, whether I agree with them or not.

I guess the "emotional" debate depends on what the situation is. When not Melissa, I am pretty much, I think, a typical guy. Women in my life have, at times accused me of what is typically thought of as "guy insensitivity", things like not listening to everything they say. And I have seen women get emotional, no doubt. But I have seen men do the same thing, in different ways. What about the guy who loses his temper and punches something he is trying to fix? Is that not emotional? What about fighting itself? certainly not born of logic. And I have certainly met more hyper jealous and posessive men than women. Another emotion.

I have also known and dated women who are quite cold, calculating, and unresponsive. I don't think either gender has a monopoly on bad attitudes or habits. I'm not saying there are no differences, but that absolute generalizations are wrong.


As far as the actual title of this thread(finally!) I stick mostly to what I have said. There are mtf cds, and ftm cds. the second group, from what I have seen, is much smaller. Then there is everyone else, and us, when we are not crossdressing. Women have more variety, and freedom to dress as they want. men have far less. But again, this is totally seperate from what I believe, most men get from cding, and cannot be compared to a woman wearing pants! Even if guys were free to wear skirts and silk blouses, I believe a true crossdresser would still have problems in society because cding is about gender identification, not just clothes. At least for me. And complainig that women have more freedom to wear what they want, then wearing women's clothing because it makes you feel more like a girl is somewhat inconsistent, to me. Although also not that big a deal to me. If women have more freedom and variety to dress as they please, I am happy for them. And happy for me, when I am a girl.

Hugs,

Melissa

[Carrah]

[COLOR=Red]Carrah,
I seriously doubt that most women who wear pants consider themselves crossdressers or are attempting to mimic men. Did you ever consider that sometimes women simply find pants more practical, comfortable, or modest than a dress?

My point here is that how they view themselves - what they consider themselves as doing, is not relevant - it is what is. You put on clothes designed for the opposite sex and you are in fact crossdressed by definition - like it or not.

With respect to whether they are attempting to mimick men, who knows? Maybe? Whether consciously or otherwise, maybe that's exactly what they're doing. Maybe on an unconscious level they are letting us know they can dress like men or women anytime they choose? I have no idea with respect to that...

[Tamara Croft]

This is an excellent thread and has been so far a good debate. One thing I have just thought about, I know women that can't even get into womens clothes, because their figure is just not cut out for them. They have no choice but to wear clothes made for men. I don't think that makes them a crossdresser, as it's a necessity and something out of their control.

Tamara x

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Leave it to the Kewster to disagree and post an unpopular opinion. But here are a couple of radical ideas. One, I don't believe crossdressing at its deepest level is about dressing at all. Chaw on that one for a while. It's about expressing one's inner sense of gender--which for most crossdressers happens to be males expressing a female aspect of themselves. Whether they are dressed or not, the feelings and inner perceptions are still there. Two, I disagree about women wearing men's clothes and being able to get away with it. You need to understand and accept that there is a collection of clothes which have become more androgynes (sp? sorry). For instance, my grandmother was born in 1899 (no, she's no longer with us) and she never, EVER wore a pair of pants in her life and was mortified that I wore pants that zipped up the front like a man. Women should've, in her mind, had their zippers on the side or up the back. Times have changes as the cliche goes. Now pants are genderless. And some other garments are genderless as well. However, if I decided to go to work in a man's three piece suit; I'd get some odd looks and comments. Granted, I won't argue that women have more lattitude in what they choose to wear. But times will change again, kids and some day, who knows--men may wear skirts only (hell, Jesus did--okay, he wore a dress actually).

And, for anyone that cares--I have NEVER, EVER wanted to be a male. There is nothing about the male world that appeals to me at all. I have always been aware that I am female and MOST HAPPY to be female.

hugs
kew

[Carrah]

I'm going to say this as nicely as possible. This is a place for discussion NOT a place for people to FORCE their views upon others and argue about it. Just because you believe something, others do not have to. It is not a requirement. State your OPINIONS and leave it at that unless you have something to discuss otherwise. Opinions are not proof, hence the have no bearing to argue over. And above all, respect the other members here. Or I will close this topic. This is supposed to be a friendly supportive place. Can we act like it?

Now, you had to know that statemnet was going to ruffle a few feathers

All debate is healthy debate as long as it is a civilized debate and I have thusfar noted no incivilities within this thread.

No one admires, appreciates, or even likes those who state their mind, stomp their feet, and then run off.

One cannot "force" their view upon another in a forum such as this.

All "proof" comes or eminates from "opinion." Human beings do not seek truth or fact where first an opinion has not been formed. The "proof" is the actual proof of the stated opinion.

We all hate that we are constantly threatened in one way or another pretty much on a daily basis. We awake each day with an understanding or threat that if we break a law or a rule we will be punished in some way, shape, or form. It is not kind natured to threaten those of us here who simply wish to find the truth with respect to that which we practice mutually. Therefore, "Or I will close this topic." is certainly quite unwelcome and truthfully conflicts with the following statement, "This is supposed to be a friendly supportive place."

On a lighter note, try a larger size panty

[Tamara Croft]

And, for anyone that cares--I have NEVER, EVER wanted to be a male. There is nothing about the male world that appeals to me at all. I have always been aware that I am female and MOST HAPPY to be female.

hugs
kew

WOW..... that's 2 of us kew..... I always knew we were unique

Tamara x

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Or I will close this topic." is certainly quite unwelcome and truthfully conflicts with the following statement, "This is supposed to be a friendly supportive place."

I thrive off debate
No one learns anything if we all behave like Stepford Wives
I'm not for that.

*sigh*
hugs
kew

[Melissa A.]

I have to dissagree. How one views themselves means everything. Or maybe it is time to redifine what men's and women's clothing are. Perhaps, nowadays, for all practical purposes, there is no such thing as exclusively men's clothing anymore, except briefs.

No matter how hard I would try, I just cannot look at a woman in a pair of boxers, cause it's comfortable, and say she is crossdressing. Or a pair of guy's sweats or dockers. Or a baseball uniform. Or men's shorts. or a man's golf shirt. This, my friends, ain't crossdressing, as far as I am concerned. Intent DOES mean everything.

Please read my above post. The world ain't fair, maybe. In Carrah's words, It is what it is. Unfair. One sided. Intolerant. But I just can't believe that what today, I consider unisex dressing is crossdressing. I dress to look and feel like a girl. That's crossdressing. I don't believe that your girlfriend throwing on your most comfortable pair of men's jeans is.

Hugs,

Melissa

[Tamara Croft]

crossdresser

cross-dresser n : someone who adopts the dress or manner or sexual role of the opposite sex

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=crossdresser

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Baaaaaaaaaaa!

*chews her cud*

*looks around at the other sheep*

*wonders where Jesus is*

hugs
kew

[Carrah]

This is the sort of statement I think Tristen is talking about. Carrah, you can't say that it isn't true as you don't know her and her friends. Just because you may not know any emotional men, does not mean someone else doesn't. It's the same as you telling me that I've never wanted to be a man and telling me that I'm unique because of it. Those are your beliefs not ours.

The title of this thread is 'Crossdressing, what's all the big fuss' lets try to keep to the topic without winding up members and telling them what they are saying is inaccurate.

Tamara x

My point here is that indeed, these are not my beliefs. You see, what I believe doesn't matter; it doesn't change what is.

It is quite unfortunate, but what confuses and trips people up more than anything in this world is their failure or their refusal to accept what is. Each of us wants to beleive we are somehow unique, but were that true we wouldn't be so easily manipulated by something as simple as a television commercial.

Americas founding fathers, and you know these guys were pure geniuses, knew that the masses could be easily manipulated and therefore never gave the masses the ability to choose their leader. Yes, we vote here in America, but our vote represents nothing more than our desire; it gaurantees nothing.

We are all easily manipulated individually or otherwise, externally or internally. The idea of being brainwashed exists and can only be considered successful when it has gone unnoticed or unrealized, which is common. Many of the wars we have won, we have won purely through manipulation or brainwashing followed by a show of strength even during times we had no strength.

Look, human nature is what it is, Tamarra and it most cetainly apply's to each of us; there simply is no escape. It is a common argument to introduce what one perceives as the "unknown" (I.E. I don't know all of her friends), but the point is I don't need to know who all her friends are; it's simply not relevant. The laws of nature dictate these truths...

[Melissa A.]

Carrah, You are using an arguement that does not match your premise. Impressive words, but it doesn't fit. Alot of things do not fit into the catagory of "what is". Human nature, while it can be quantified to some degree, most certainly fits into this catagory.

Behavioralists and psychologists still argue over the differences between the male and female mind, still do studies, often coming to differing conclusions. when you say dissmissively that you don't need to know her friends, because what is, is, THAT IS STILL JUST YOUR OPINION. Your'e just wrapping it in a defense that you think is unarguable, because you present it as something other than opinion. But it is exactly that.

I have no problem accepting "what is". But many of the examples you just cited may or may not be. That is, they are opinion.

Hugs,

Melissa

[Carrah]

I have to dissagree. How one views themselves means everything. Or maybe it is time to redifine what men's and women's clothing are. Perhaps, nowadays, for all practical purposes, there is no such thing as exclusively men's clothing anymore, except briefs.

No matter how hard I would try, I just cannot look at a woman in a pair of boxers, cause it's comfortable, and say she is crossdressing. Or a pair of guy's sweats or dockers. Or a baseball uniform. Or men's shorts. or a man's golf shirt. This, my friends, ain't crossdressing, as far as I am concerned. Intent DOES mean everything.

Please read my above post. The world ain't fair, maybe. In Carrah's words, It is what it is. Unfair. One sided. Intolerant. But I just can't believe that what today, I consider unisex dressing is crossdressing. I dress to look and feel like a girl. That's crossdressing. I don't believe that your girlfriend throwing on your most comfortable pair of men's jeans is.

Hugs,

Melissa

You know, Melissa, good stuff; that's all I can say about that post. You bring up an excellent point.

Folks, we may be witnessing the alteration in the definition of a word or phrase. Ever wonder how the word "Gay" came to mean something other than what it means today? Ever wonder how the word "retarded" came to be a bad word? Ever wonder how this phrase changed over the years, "Ward, have you seen the beaver lately?" Well, it's like it just happens. It's like all of a sudden we hear something one day and it no longer means the same thing anymore.

Crossdressing has always been the simple practice of wearing clothing designed for the opposite sex. This is a purely, simple, physical function or activity. However, Melissa has intriduced the possibility that it also somehow involves an emotional aspect and you know what, I do beleive she is on to something with that thought. Melissa is suggesting that to define crossdressing now, one must first realize their thoughts with respect to what they are wearing. The question next becomes, is this still going to be coined crossdressing, or do we now need another word to describe such activity? Or, do we already have such a word? Might simply putting on clothes of the opposite sex be considered crossdressing, while attempting to act or behave as the opposite sex while crossdressed is actually more closely aligned with transgenderism? What about, "crossgendering?"

Simply put, the word "crossdressed" seems to be taking on a transformation of sorts and no, Melissa isn't responisble for this, but she does bring up a great perspective on the word. Have we been using this word or phrase incorrectly, just as we do an alarm clock? I do tend to articulate and can be quite literal at times. When my daughter or girlfriend tell me they were already awake when the alarm went off, I often suggest that maybe they shouldn't have tried to sleep with it on all night.

Maybe we have a decision to make here with respect to crossdressing? Maybe we're attempting to discuss a word or phrase we aren't even certain of what its meaning is? Heck, if we can't even agree on the true meaning of the word, how are we ever going to have an intelligent discussion involving the word?

Arriving at the truth with respect to anything we endeavor is the practice of manipulating a series of 1's and 0's. It would appear we haven't even gotten past the first set of numbers.

Excellent, excellent, excellent, Melissa - excellent! We either must comply with the current definition of crossdressing or we must somehow define the activity and its varying levels ourselves...

[Brandy_Marie]

And, for anyone that cares--I have NEVER, EVER wanted to be a male. There is nothing about the male world that appeals to me at all. I have always been aware that I am female and MOST HAPPY to be female.

hugs
kew

Hear, Hear! That is one thing that I have never understood. I mean, I completely get Equal Rights for Women and all that. But it just seems that there are women nowadays that are doing nothing more than emulating the worst traits of men. I've got to go with George Carlin on this one; I'll never understand why a woman would want to set their sights so low as to imitate all of the worst traits of men.

I'm not saying that men are all bad; that they are all horrible, loathsome creatures to be despised. However I think that, when viewed as a whole, women are the better half of the species. I'd venture to guess, at least at a subconscious level, that all M2Fs feel that way. We are all, in one way or another, trying to tap into that mysterious power that is woman. That, to me, is the answer to the great mystery of M2F crossdressing; no matter what form it takes. But, that's just my opinion; take it for what it is worth.

On the other hand, there is F2M crossdressing. My comment above as to women imitating men is most certainly not directed at them. Again, this is just my opinion, but I see F2Ms main motivation as changing their physical appearance to find relief from the pressures that most women are put under with regards to standards of attractiveness. That, and it gives them the freedom to be more assertive than they may otherwise be able to be. But I have yet to see an F2M give up the sensitivity and compassion of her true womanly nature to ape the macho attitude of a man; maybe subdue it to pass in the world as necessary when under close scrutiny, but no more. But, then again, my friend Captain Bailey would be better suited to offering opinions on that viewpoint; I'm just hazarding an educated guess based on my observations.

As to Carrah, I was going to point out that it seems your male side is taking hold and expressing itself strongly on this topic. I've since seen your thread "Time to reconsider" and I'd venture to guess that I wasn't too far off. At least, that's the way it is for me, and you sound (right now, at least) like you have a lot in common with my inner man in your attitudes. I do hope you find your way back to us at some point.

Love,

Brandy Marie Devereaux

[Carrah]

Behavioralists and psychologists still argue over the differences between the male and female mind, still do studies, often coming to differing conclusions. when you say dissmissively that you don't need to know her friends, because what is, is, THAT IS STILL JUST YOUR OPINION. Your'e just wrapping it in a defense that you think is unarguable, because you present it as something other than opinion. But it is exactly that.

Melissa, I certainly won't try to deny the above statement; I agree that this goes on each and every day. However, science has come to agree on many points and one of those points is that men are far less emotional and far more logical than are women, and I see this everyday. Like I said, that's not my opinion.

Her statement was that she knew "just as many men" that were "just as emotional" as women. All things being equal, as suggested in that statement, that would have to be considered an impossibility based on what science has proven and upon what I have personally observed. Something is wrong with the statement. For example, if she were to have said she knows far more women than men and that some of those men are as emotional as many of those women, that I could have bought into.

I think we all understood her point, though; that some men are just as emotional as some women. And, to further that stance, I know some women that will shoot you between the eyes without batting an eyelash and with zero emotion.

My point was that too many women have bought into the premise that there is no difference between the sexes and in large part, this thinking has gotten them into trouble and even killed too many unfortunate times. I hate to say this, and I really do, but women in large part do comply with what science has suggested; that their thinking bares little logic. Were women to come to terms with this they would logically live a longer, safer life. For example, women are the number one supporter of firearms restrictions in the United States yet this is the one, single device that can truly make them equal to a 225 pound male intent on having his way with her; no other device can accomplish this and they want to restrict their own access to these devices. Their scientifically proven emotional thinking has allowed them to be manipulated into believing that if the gun is in the house, one of their loved ones will be killed by it. There is no logic or evidence to support that line of thinking. In fact, less than 2,500 U.S. citizens were "accidentally" killed by firearms in this country last year. More children die in their cribs and backyard pools each year Instead, women tend to falsly believe that 911 is the great equalizer. Well, by definition 911 means that you need help and no one is there to help you! That's why you hear so many disturbing deaths on 911 tapes.

No, based on her statement I don't need to know who she is refering to, I know logically it has to be a false statement. Not consistant with what so many would like to believe, that nothing is what it appears to be, some things are in fact exactly what they appear to be...

[Tamara Croft]

It's pretty funny Carrah that your the only one here that doesn't agree with what she said about knowing as many emotional men as women. Doesn't that tell you something, that maybe just maybe your wrong....... she isn't going on scientifically proven waffle, she is talking about people she knows. Therefore your logic isn't correct and neither are you. So please quit shoving logic down our throats because I for one am sick of hearing it.

Tamara

[Roberta-Jane]

I too am fed up with logic.

So much for 'live long and prosper' when the so-called logical men are the ones that have led us into most of the world's wars, especially those based on religious grounds.

As someone from England, (and using my hated male logical side) how can you possibly say that it is logical to keep a weapon in your house that can kill another human being? How many folks in the US are trained to use that gun?

I would say that most of the gun crime with these 'house guns' is anything but logical. Surely it is entirely emotional.

Most of us over here do not understand why the gun lobby is so strong, other than it must relate to the Bill of Rights and the right to bear arms. I have always loved the USA and its people but my feminine side says that this is a right that should very definitely come with a responsibilty to end the need for a weapon other than in the hands of the law. Or are you saying that your lwas are not good enough to protect you without the need to bear arms.

I am interested therefore to know how many of you who go out dressed carry a gun in your purse?

Sorry about rambling from the thread.

I would favour emotion above logic any day.

Peace and tranquility


Roberta-Jane

[TiffanySlave]

You already do. If you didn't there wouldn't be a need for this site or for so many crossdressers to be in the closet.
what are you doing? Complaining about it, is going to get you nowhere, making a stand is a start!

Tamara x

P.S. I'm on your side you know!!

I have made a stand I have my own website with 1800 members and I also am out to family and a lot of others. There are male to female crosdressors that want to be men you jsut never hear about it as much. There jsut called dikes like us CD's are called faggots. I am jsut saying it is hypocrytical and silly. I should and DO wear what I want. I wish more cd's were likeme we wouldn't have to worry about being out in public at a job etc. Oh and I do go out dressed mainly in the warm times. ALthough If you wanna pass easier and are new you could do it in winter as you can wear a girls jacket etc.
What a thread


P.s
And who cares if its a man that wants to be a women in the cloths? It is still a hypocrytical thing for a women to wear mans clothing and no problem but a man to wear womens cloths and be made fun of. Doesn't matter why he wears them! Just like the old stereotype women are good for the kitchen and the bedroom. WOmen want equal rights and equal pay and a chance at the same jobs like being a jet pilot or a mechanic. Stereotypes and hypcrytical things hurt those things for them also. Lets toss out all the crap and just live? I have been out as a women many times ive just not be read so I don't know how that is.

[TiffanySlave]

Oh and im not sure why but today is the first notification that there was a reply to this thread. I came here expecting one reply and 3 pages came up You all look great and it is nice to see you all active in the topic. I was in a bad mood the day I posted it but it is accurate. It is Hypocrytical jsut like on lots of things. Here is something to chew on.......... how about this one..........

HYPOCRYTICAL 1:
You can wear a bicini thats has a bra part and a undie part and there is no issues at all with it. It is very very tiny as small as can be at times.

But

If you wore a big covering bra and un revealing underwear you would be breaking the law.


HOWS THAT ONE?


HYPOCRYTICAL 2:
It is illegal for a women to be a prostitute and sell what she can give a way for free but..........

YOu can have a abortion and its her right as its her body. So it is not her right and her body to sell sex?????

Hows that one

[TiffanySlave]

Hi TiffanySlave,


Also as for women being in the men's area of a clothing store. We have been expected to do the clothing shopping for the entire family, including our husbands (for generations). So, if we are going to buy clothing for our husbands and sons we need to go into the men's department. My husband still sends me to do his shopping for him because his excuse is he doesn't like to shop.

Hugs,
Topaz

I actually buy my own womens clothing and have picked them up for the wife to. At the grocery store I will buy tampons and oother femine products as needed. I even will carry her pocket book for her in a mall. I have no hangups about it and if they don't like it they can @@##$ and find some place else to go Like a person said in this thread it is the MALES we mostly have to worry about. Women some may make funof you but the guys will beat you up. THe funny thing is all these same macho men are the ones that are married and hit on me online to have sex with them and many joined my website. ALso a lot of manly men singles do the same thing. YOu would not get them to admint that in public as they call a guy a fag........... We need a Transvestite march in dc or something. THey would be surprised if all of us in the country showed up. Definatle would be MILLIONS............

[samanthajay]

Your wife may wear your clothes, but is she wearing them because she wants to be a man??? There is a difference between just wearing the clothes and wearing them for a reason. Crossdressers etc wear womens clothes because that's what they want to be or feel like 'a woman'. I wear some of my SO's clothes... doesn't mean I want to or feel anyway like a man.

Tamara x

shes got a point