Should we encourage.....?

[Dee Jay]

I'm not feminine.
I have facial hair.
I'm quite broad at the shoulders.
I'm tall.
I'm overweight.
I wouldn't pass in a month of Sundays.

Now on many occasions on this and other forums, I have seen pictures of people with the question "Do I pass?"

99% of the time the replies say "yes", when a some of the time they should say "Only in the dark" or "At a short sighted convention"
Now don't take this the wrong way. I'm all for people who want to get out and about and walk amongst the world to do so, but to tell someone that they easily pass and encorage them to do something that might get them laughed at, insulted or even hurt is surely wrong.

If someone looks like a man in a dress, should they not be told so?

I was watching a TV programme here in the UK the other night. It was about the wives of crossdressers. One of the CD was very good looking as a girl, but some of the others left a lot to be desired. There was one lady (the SO of a CD) who actively encoraged CDs to get out into the public. One of these looked and always will look like a man in ladies clothes.
They went to one area and the laughs, the name calling and abuse from the local lads was quite shocking. This person should not have been encouraged to put him/herself into that situation.

This is not just for the persons sake, it's for the sake of crossdressers everywhere.
To many, we are considered freaks. And it's no wonder when you see of the CDs/TVs at some of the CD events and indeed the pictures they post.
A lot of the members here really do look stunning, some even make me doubt my sexuality. I think to myself "yes I know it's a man, but I would!!!"
There are a few who need to be told... "Your outfit looks great, but for the love of God, don't go out. You'll scare the children"
I see myself very much so as the latter.

I agree that some people don't really care about what others might think, and more power to their elbows for being so strong, but others who might be slightly nervous, or not able to handle the abuse might be talked into doing something they can't handle, just because we are sometimes scared to be honest.
I also agree that it's a free world and people should be able to go out dressed as they like in whatever clothes they like, but is it fair to tell someone they look female when they quite obviously do not?

It's not fair that unconvincing CDs get shouted at and abused, but this is the society that we live in. Personally, I'm big enough and strong enough to take care of myself, and I have the ability to verbally put down anyone who thinks they are being a smart a**e, but I'm also man enough to know that if I went into town dressed as a girl, I'd get the p**s taken something rotten.

Please don't flame back. This is just a question that I've been wanting to ask for years. I would never encourage anyone to do something that might get them ridiculed. I'm not saying that unconvincing CDs/TVs/TGs etc etc etc should not go out. I'm saying that we should let them know that they are unconvincing before they do, this way they are warned and prepared for any flack that might come their way.

DJ

[Niya W]

I say I'd pass 40% of the time . That will not stop me from going out. I will be honest and if some askes me if they pass I will tell them the truth

[susie evans]

i used to worry about passing and the little details of life but now i concentrate on being who i realy am and don't worry about others who don't realy care ,i just try to live life to it's fullest

susie

[Tina Dixon]

There's people here that are in fem all the time and don't worry about this passing thing is, they are who they are and don't worry about looks, I see a lot of real women that don't pass, so whats that old saying? "beauty is only skin deep".

[raleighbelle]

I really have to agree with the original post.

For those of us who restrict our activities to our homes, it doesn't really matter how we dress as it is all about how we feel, rather than how we look to others. For those who don't care, and want to just live out their female persona, and don't care how others respond and how it affects their lives otherwise, that is fantastic for them.

The dream for many of us though is to be female, or at least to be accepted as female when we go outside ,i.e. passing. We greatly fear the repercussions to our families, our jobs, our friends, and ourselves. Some of us know very well we would never pass (the description given in the original post fits me as well) but some would really like to try. I agree that if a person is asking if they could pass, we would be much more fair to give them our honest opinion rather than send them out as an emperor in female clothes. If I were asking the question, I would want the honest answer. I think that is what most are asking for.

On the other hand, if a person is just dressing at home and just wants to know what others think of their look, that is different and certainly encouragement is a good thing!

[Dizzy-Chan]

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but I'll be entirely honest. Many people on this board probably can't pass. A good majority of the people on this board will tell them, though, that they do to give the the ego boost or so they don't seem rude. I imagine anonymity would probably allow people to give a more honest answer, like on the chan boards, but frankly i don't see that happening here.

Like i said, not trying to be mean, just honest.

[Heelsnlegs]

I agree we need to be honest with each other and more so with ourselves. I know Im not 100% passable but I have a real need to get out to enjoy all the things GGs do, like shopping, or having a lunch or drinks while enfemme.

I just get around it by going to places where the chances of being accepted or ignored are better. I travel on business and make sure I can get to places that are more accepting

Jen

[Nicole Erin]

All's most of us here see of each other is pictures.
Some people take really good photos, some are good at photoshop...

What pictures do not show is someone walk, voice, etc.

So often when we see photos of each other on the web, we are seeing them at their very best looks and those photos are all anyone has to go on.

I think the best thing to do for each other would be to tell them what should be improved so they have a better chance at "passing" or at least looking their best if they go out in public. There is nothing wrong with telling someone "You should change this or that about your look". Maybe the CD with huge hands should forego the long nails. OLder CD's with dark complextions are not going to look good with that strawberry blond wig.
Honestly takes nerve.

If someone asks how they look, sometimes they do have it together but if not, help them out. I would want people to do the same for me. It might hurt a little if a fellow CD tells us what needs fixed but it is REALLY going to hurt if a bunch of punks say "HAHAHAHA look a man in a dress! hahahaha"

[Kate Simmons]

Pics never tell the full story. Even without using Photoshop or being enhanced in any way, it depends on how the lighting and shadowing comes out as to how well the illusion comes across. I have taken some quite racy pics of myself (which will never be posted here) and because of lighting, they look very convincing. None of the pics I use for my avatars are touched up however as I want to see what others are seeing. Even so, nothing replaces seeing a person up front and personal and I have been quite surprised when that has happened in a number of cases.

Another thing is "staying power". Even with the best of beard cover, I'm not much good in a live situation after 10 hours. The point and goal to me though is to get out there and mingle and we will never really know how "good" we are unless we give it a shot, so I figure it's what the person's situation is and what they are trying to accomplish that should determine any advice. Many times in a thread of this nature, advice is already given by the time I get to it, so I let it stand. Folks need to get their feet "wet" if they truely want to go out. Other times I will PM the person but anything I say is only based on my own experience and the methods I have used.

Bottom line is I'm never going to judge anyone and I have a lot of respect for them if they do decide to be bold and make the plunge and would support them regardless. I would never purposely mislead someone though, only encourage them.

[Jilmac]

Dee Jay, I could have written this thread just as well as you. I certainly can relate to many of the instances you mentioned. I knew when I began my crossdressing journey 47 years ago, that I was not passable as a woman. There have been only a couple times that I ventured out beyond home while en femme. Even with my femme name (Jill) I am still quite a man in a dress. I am also keenly aware of the limited level of acceptance in my state and the rest of the country. I am guessing that the level of acceptance in the UK is similar to that of the US in most areas of your country.

Even though I know I'm not passable, I still have the desire to go out en femme to shop, dine, or be entertained, and I am learning of places which are accepting at home and in neighboring cities and states. The capital city of my state is much more accepting than most of tho other cities, what with all the polititians, and the fact that a major university is located there. I would feel totally comfortable going out in that city and would not feel any apprehension to being seen in public, day or night. I am also learning of areas in some neighboring states that sponser events specifically for crossdressers.

I plan to go out and enjoy myself as I see fit, and the public and their attitude be damned. I can appreciate your concern of nonpassable dressers, But I'm at a point in my life now , that I don't care what others think or say about me. Living in a free society, it is my right to wear anything I desire, as long as I am not violating any laws. So that being said, I believe I have added more than my worth. Just some food for thought. Luv and Jill

[Fab Karen]

MOST of us don't literally pass. WHat anyone should focus on for going out is looking as good as they can, being presentable for the approriate situation ( **** me platform heels & a micro-mini aren't something you'd wear to go shopping unless you wanted a lot of attention for example).
And you have to be aware of what areas are gonna have people who are accepting (if it is considered normal to see a confederate flag on a town's govt. building, you have one of those danger signs). Not everyone is gonna lovingly embrace you, but many will treat you as just another person of society.

[MJ]

Dee Jay, I could have written this thread just as well as you. I certainly can relate to many of the instances you mentioned. I knew when I began my crossdressing journey 47 years ago, that I was not passable as a woman. There have been only a couple times that I ventured out beyond home while en femme. Even with my femme name (Jill) I am still quite a man in a dress. I am also keenly aware of the limited level of acceptance in my state and the rest of the country. I am guessing that the level of acceptance in the UK is similar to that of the US in most areas of your country.

Even though I know I'm not passable, I still have the desire to go out en femme to shop, dine, or be entertained, and I am learning of places which are accepting at home and in neighboring cities and states. The capital city of my state is much more accepting than most of tho other cities, what with all the polititians, and the fact that a major university is located there. I would feel totally comfortable going out in that city and would not feel any apprehension to being seen in public, day or night. I am also learning of areas in some neighboring states that sponser events specifically for crossdressers.

I plan to go out and enjoy myself as I see fit, and the public and their attitude be damned. I can appreciate your concern of nonpassable dressers, But I'm at a point in my life now , that I don't care what others think or say about me. Living in a free society, it is my right to wear anything I desire, as long as I am not violating any laws. So that being said, I believe I have added more than my worth. Just some food for thought. Luv and Jill

i mean no offense but at the same time have you seen the look of some women ? .. the girls here get an "A" for effort . and there comes a time when we as cross-dressers want more were sick of just staying home and there comes a time when we need to get out explore .. i feel passing is overrated as long as we are respectful and have courage why not ? thanks

[lisa_e_love]

I agree with a lot of what you've written on your post. But I think that 99% of people who don't pass know that they won't and might be asking to know that we think they are beautiful. So, I don't think by complimenting the appearance of this type of crossdresser you've outlined would really put them over the edge to the point where they'd go out and get abused. I'm willing to bet that most everyone has a good enough idea whether or not they can and how well they can with or without comments.

I guess the problem is that we've got to encourage society to accept it, but we certainly don't want anyone to get beaten up in any alleyways. There are some girls here who know they won't pass but go out anyway. I think, "All power to them!" as long as they're careful. Even if a 6' 2" man in a dress with a badly shaved beard and huge shoulders may be alarming to society and many will call that man a "freak", his very presence lets society know that things are changing.

So maybe instead of saying, "You don't pass. Don't go out" we could say, "You look beautiful to us. We think you might get read, but if you're OK with that then just get out there!"

[Violetgray]

I'm not sure, but I think I'm in complete agreement with you.

Bill Maher in his standup gave examples of how this country has, in his not-so-humble opinion, been "Feminized." One of the examples he gave was "Feelings over truth."

We tg-people don't get enough support from society at large, so we try to be that for each other. In our efforts to do so however, we often tell other cd's what they want to hear.. understandable, but not that wise. It can create a false sense of confidence that leads to an unpleasant public experience. Something to consider, however, is this:

Does beautiful=passable?

When cd's on this board compliment each other, they rarely actually use the word passable. Is it possible to be just a beautiful man in a dress?

Now, if you know you don't pass, but want to go out anyway, and are willing to deal with those mental midgets that make rude comments, then more power to you! Otherwise, seek out an honest assessment.. I work hard at it and I'm still not where I want to be, but as they say, perfection is a path, not a destination!

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Like many, I don't enjoy the prospect of hurting someone's feelings. BUT... if the thread specifically asks for the absolute truth then I will do so constructively.
I try to be as truthful as possible in order to help not hinder. We are ALL our own worst critics so sometimes its better to get out there and ask our kin what they think. There are also some that you can tell by reading need an ego boost. Many of us enjoy that and its a nice boost to get through the day.
Everyone goes through that journey of finding a happy medium to put us at rest with everything else. It can be a very hard road to walk.

*hugs*

Zara

[SweetCaroline]

I've hardly ever worried about passing when I go out. I've been out alone and with groups of T-girls and I never once thought anyone looked at us and thought we were actually girls. I've also been heckled as well, some pretty nasty things too, and my attitude has always been "Hey, I know how I'm dressed. Say anything you want. I'm going out with my friends and having a good time."

I've seen T-girls who, especially the first few times, didn't present themselves too well. Most of the girls I know are MUCH taller than me, and it doesn't stop them.

I encourage girls to go out mainly because the reason we sometimes get harassed and heckled is because we are NOT SEEN. We are not a common site. We hide so people don't see us or understand us. I think the more and more of us go out and are seen in public places, weather we pass, blend-in, present ourselves well, or not, the more people will get used to seeing us. More people will interact with us in a positive way. A lot of time people just mind there own business anyways. The trolls eventually go home once they realize you can't be discouraged.

I do however, for safety purposes, encourage going out in groups of two or more, or with an understanding friend or SO.

Just my two cents.

[Babette]

Dee Jay,

Your points are well taken and my post is given with no intention of casting flames. Some people can be too kind while others are painfully too cruel with their criticisms. Obviously there are good and bad consequences to both types.

People have dreams and aspirations. Think back to when we were children. Some of us wanted to become great athletes, musicians, or scholars. Other wanted to be adventuresome and perhaps climb mountains or sail the ocean. Some merely wanted to be more popular or accepted by our piers. Regardless of our dreams, there was nothing more damaging to our self esteem than cold, heartless discouragement from others.

As I grew older, I quickly realized that I would probably never be a world class musician or artist. Instead, I compromised with myself and vowed to become a better one. I agree that not everyone posting a picture (including me) is a perfect "10". However, I hold onto my dream to be better.

Communicating via forums has sensitivity risks because it is "flat or two dimensional" as opposed to "live or in-person" with someone. We cannot see another person's facial expression or body language in their post. Worse yet, attempts with sarcasm, humor, or sincerity are often lost or misconstrued. Without the live, inter-personal communication, even criticism offered with the best intentions can damage self esteem.

Like you, I would never want to encourage anyone to do something that precipitates ridicule. Worse yet, is to destroy someone's dream. It is fair to offer solicited feedback to another's pictures. However, it will be my intention to exercise diplomacy and offer sensitivity when responding. It would be my dream to receive the same.

Babette

[Eugenie]

It is hard to be honnest in many occasions... I plead guilty for that myself... I have often looked at some pics which were really bad and didn't get the courage to say anything...

Perhaps a word or two regarding makeup, choice of clothes and body postures may have helped but I didn't do it...

I only posted some advice to one sister who looked great anyhow and had just a tiny detail that could be enhancing her pics.

Well, on the other hand, not being close enough how may some one really help in any way?

Then there is the fact that pictures may not give very faithfull images of the reality... I have a vivid example of a French CD whose pics were terrible. No way she would come close to "passing" even in the fog... That's what her pics were showing... I finally met her face to face and there she was extremely feminine, far more than in her pics...

But perhaps if some of us had the comments of others on how they think their "en femme look" could be improved, that could be helpfull. Perhaps it could be done via PM in order to avoid embarassing comments to be seen publicly...


Eugenie

[Suzy Harrison]

I agree with the original post.

I'm sure, with the view of being supportive and encouraging, people can be misled into believing that they look better than what they really do.

[Amy Hepker]

I would say that I have seen all kinds of GGs all over this country and they come in all shapes, sizes, shades, and faces. There is no reason why anyone can not look like a female, if you use makeup in the right way and shave really close. Your actions talk big time and can give you away. You have to act Female to pass as a female. You have to dress as females dress to pass. You have to have the right wig and makeup to pass. Anyone can pass, Practice, Practice, Practice. I myself have come a long ways in just a few years. Some of you will remember some of my first pics and I did not look anything like a Female, now just look at my Avatar and there is a huge difference. Remember Smile, that makes a world of difference. Remember the saying Smaile and whole will Smile with you.

[shirley1]

well i certainly wouldnt take it seriously if someone on here said they think i could pass ! how can you tell from a photograph that could be of anyone - however when i go to a meeting a meet others then i will take it seriously what they say - then they see you in the flesh and see how you walk act ect - that is excactly why i would never just go out the door on my own in daylite for the first time caus even if you look good (and i do believe you can look very good and still not be convincin) i have said this before but in some areas/neighbourhoods you could be ripped to shreads by walkin the streets dressed - you have got to think of your safety - i mean forget all that but if your still in the closet the last thing youd want to do is walk down the rd and be read straight away by numerous people and then when you go back to your normal male mode people still recognise you and say "theres that tranny we saw the other day" there are nasty people out there and i live in england i would imagine parts of the states are even worse !

[Dena]

I also agree with the original post. Also that you can't really
tell from a photograph. I have to take a whole roll of film to
get 2 or 3 good shots.

I'm not passable for a number of reasons, mostly I'm not into
women's casual clothes so I'd be "overdressed" in most situations. I'm also a tad over 6' tall and 200#.

I've been out a few times and discovered I like to be recognized as a male when I'm all dolled up.

[Chiana]

Good thread. Lots of good stuff here. I have just a couple of thoughts. There are a lot of beautiful girls on here that probably pass on looks but I think there is more to it than just looks. Like confidence. GG's are not constantly looking around a room and wondering "do I pass?" I think many here would be fine if they would just act natural and not spend their time looking around to see if they have been read. And beauty does not necessarily equal passing. A photo does not show if you know how to walk, how to sit, how to act or how to talk like a woman.

And I would have to agree with the original premis of this thread in that I think we do tend to be more complimentary than honest on some occasions. I visited a web site for make up artists and make up enthusiasts and those girls obviously had differing tastes but they didn't hold back if they saw something they thought could be better.

[Nicole Erin]

Even if a 6' 2" man in a dress with a badly shaved beard and huge shoulders may be alarming to society and many will call that man a "freak", his very presence lets society know that things are changing.

PEople might call this Cd a freak, the 6'2" with huge shoulders, but not too many would have the nerve to call her out.
Well I wouldn't anyways, I prefer to stay healthy.

[jennifer41356]

It may be one thing not to physically look like a woman, but if go out and dress and act like a lady , you will at least be treated like a lady....I have seen Cd's who maybe dont really pass, but they may be dressed like what a lady may wwear for daytime and act like a woamn would act, and folks around them dont really notice....people tend to be in the own world and do not pay attention to things around them unless something grabs their attention...like a 6-2" 250lb "woman" dressed like an 18 yr old schoolgirl...

its a matter of perception, walking, talking, doing thins a lady would do and chances are good no one really would notice..

I used to go to a CD club in Dallas and some of the "girls" would use the ladies room at the hotel or hotel bar and go into the stalls and pee standing up, and they wondered why they didnt pass, or they talk in manly voices and sit like men with a dress on instead of a lady

I have been read several times so maybe I dont really 100% pass, but I conduct myself like a lady and 99.9% of the time , i am treated accordingly.....my