Lesbian fantasies

[DanaR]

I'm kind of a flirt and try to have fun while dressed. I've even been accused of sleeping around, which isn't even close to true. My wife and I have been together for many years and I've always been faithful and loyal. Over the years while being out and about, I've had GG's actually come on to me and I'll tease back with them that they must be into girls. I would use the line "I'm a lesbian" to defuse the situation. I used this same ploy on a friend that said she was attracted to me. What was cute, after a while she would tell me she was turning into a lesbian.

[Byllie]

I just scanned through the postings and I'll have to say this is a *very* interesting conversation. It shows, all too well, how we as a society have blurred the lines between gender and sexual identity. They are definitely *not* the same.

IMHO, one's gender relates to one's feminine or masculine identity. Note, I did not say male or female, because that's a structural definition, if not a genetic one, though genetics can be debated.

One's sexual identity relates to whether you wish to have sex with someone who is male or female, structurally.

Ah, but here's where the line blurs. How are we attracted to someone, sexually? Is it because of their "hardware" or is it because of the way they look and act? We do not, in this culture, walk around flashing our *parts* to others; nudity is a whole other issue.

No, what others see is how we dress and act, and that is what initially causes a sexual attraction.

If you are a CD, and see another CD, who you do not know is a CD, and who looks and acts like a woman, you might believe that person to be a GG. Now, if you are attracted to "her", I would say you were acting heterosexually. But, if you knew she was actually a he, and were still attracted, does that make you bi or gay?

Frankly, I do not know. Why? Because I might be responding to the femininity of the person, and acting from heterosexual impulses. Or, I might be reacting to the male underneath, in which case I might be bi or gay.

Tricky, isn't it? And frustrating!

What's the answer? Be true to thyself. And be kind to thyself, as well. Give yourself, and your SO if any, time to explore and understand who and what you are. AS I see it, this exploration is a life-long undertaking, and there are often no hard and fast answers, merely theories.

That said, allow me to propose a litmus test I use for myself. Am I hetero, bi or gay? Well, when I look at a *guy*, I do not feel aroused. Nor do I wish to jump in the sack with *him*. However, when I see a beautiful *woman*, I am aroused, and might entertain fantasies. Which means, IMHO, I am a heterosexual male, who likes to dress and act in a feminine manner.

Anyway, that's my 5 cents.

Toodles!

[ReineD]

That's the problem with labels, they are so limiting.

A GG being attracted to CD doesn't fit under the label of lesbianism, nor does it fit squarely under the label of heterosexism.

Should we coin a new term or should we say to hell with labels?

But DD, even if s/he is presenting femme, I am well aware of ALL that s/he is: neither purely male nor female gendered, but a combination of both (assuming of course s/he is not TS), with a male anatomy that also comes with its own sexual energy. And as Celeste pointed out, eventually we end up in a state of UNdress anyway. But even before this happens, in my mind I am making love to who s/he is inside, her/his very essence; not to either him or her. Gender ceases to come into it.

I think it might be helpful for some of the GGs who struggle with a sexual attraction to their femme partners to try to stretch a bit and come to accept that their DH is neither purely male nor female but trans? And in the final analysis, aren't you simply with the person that you love, and does it really matter if when making love the CD thinks of himself as a woman, and the SO thinks of her as a man?

[ReineD]

The fear of GGs then, maybe is not so much centered around the physical appearance of their SO dressed up (although that hardly helps) but the psychology of their personal relationship.

Most times it is the CD withdrawing attentions. I see time and time again wives complaining that their husband no longer seems interested and goes as far as impotency. The fantasy overrides and kills the reality in many cases, at least for a time. ...but the majority of wives are eager to continue intimacy as it is concrete confirmation that their guy is still in love with them first.

Satrana: Exactly! For a woman, the act of making love begins outside the bedroom, in the way that she is treated by her partner, with behaviors that let her know that she is valued, respected, and loved. And (most?) women go under the assumption that in a relationship, loving partners make one another a priority.

If her CDing partner progressively or suddenly becomes obcessed with all things femme, and as Tree points out this leads to engaging in fantasies that do not include her and he becomes less intimate as the result, then the SO may get the impression that he values the CDing more than he does her. It may then appear that she resents the CDing manifestation (dressing) when in fact she is mourning the loss of an intimacy or a connection that she feels is no longer there.

EDIT - Of course this does not apply to SOs who have a moral or cultural bias they cannot overcome.

[Jennifer Giovannetta]

Although I would like to get sexual with my wife while dressed, I do not expect her to indulge in it. I have thought about what it might feel if the roles were reversed. Although it would be strange to me, I would give it a try. But this is probably due to my own crossdressing. It appears that some think that CD's expect thier SO's to indulge in thier sexual desires. I for one try to be as understanding as I can. She does not want to see me dressed all the time. I respect her wishes. And I do not ask her to do things that make her feel uncomfortable. Also I cannot speak for other CD's, but this CD does take other peoples feelings into consideration. And you know something else, I did not ask to be a crossdresser. Years ago before I got married, I did not have an outlet such as this forum. It has given me insight into this thing I do, and met some great people. One such person has become a close freind who is a member of this forum. If I was able to learn more about crossdressing at a younger age, maybe things would of been diffrent. Back then, I was so ashamed of my desires to dress up. And it was also frustrating to me. Sometimes it is in the present. Luckily, my wife is accepting of my crossdressing. I feel so lucky. But life is so short. And I am not going to split hairs. Hell, I dont even know why I want to do this.

[JennaKnots]

You know, with all this "sexuality" talk on these forums, I feel the need to address something here. I find it rather amazing how some CDers express profoundly their "heterosexuality" yet make statements like "I'd like to find a GG and live like lesbians!" Ummm... hold up a second! Let me get this straight (no pun intended), you will OVERLY profess your heterosexuality but instantly presume a GG will live like a lesbian lover with you?!

You people do realize that WOMEN can be straight too, right? That not all... hell, not even MOST women are gay or bi.

Don't you think its being quite the hypocrite to state that you are "oh-so hetero" and "wouldn't dream of engaging in any homosexual" act but then want to sleep with a woman as a woman?

I'm bisexual and am attracted to both feminine and masculine. But I fully understand most people don't feel the same way.

I find it ridiculous that anyone would presume another person to engage in a homosexual act when they are not of that sexuality! Just because you find something feminine attractive doesn't mean your partner should unless this is something they came into the relationship knowing about and agreeing upon.

How would you feel if your SO dressed in an unappealing manner then expected you to have sex with them? And this is not to say that straight women cannot find feminine attractive, just that the PRESUMPTION of a straight individual being okay with a homosexual act just because the "genders are opposite"? Puh-lease!

Although a potentially thought-provoking discussion starter, there are so many assumptions, generalizations and hypotheses', I have to wonder what drives the post in the first place.

The situation described is so specific, yet the tone of the post feels as though it's being applied rather globally, and I have to say it feels judgemental.

We've talked and I know your situation, so obviously I know you like CDs, but what was the intent of this post? To get feedback? To vent? I'd be curious to know where this comes from and why. If there's a personal experience to relay, I tend to think that's much more powerful and useful than "what if's?" and "how dare they's!" So what's going on DD?

[Sherry-Stephanie]

Lots of stuff to read here and it's rather involved but interesting....

I think taking the crossdressing and attaching sexuality to it can't really be done....in other words you as a male dressed as a female can't perform with a real female and think of it as two females...unless I gues the real female gets some "tool" attached to her and performs on you with you taking the female role, but then that would make it more or less a hetro sexual activity.

it's like two guys being together...one takes one role (usually what a hetrosexual would consider female) and the other the male or heterosexual role...

Another senerio is for a CD to perform the female role with a guy and in that case although it is "gay sex" between two guys they are performing in a heterol sexual manner....

To add to DD original comment it has amazed me over the eyars for hetro-sexual males/straight guys in one breath to be so ant-gay in all therir statmets and views and then in the next breath tell how mcuh the idea of having or watching two females get it on together turns them on. I for myself have never understood the rational behind that type of view!!!!! I second the "pleaaaaase!!!! that DD expressed....

[JennaKnots]

Lots of stuff to read here and it's rather involved but interesting....

I think taking the crossdressing and attaching sexuality to it can't really be done....in other words you as a male dressed as a female can't perform with a real female and think of it as two females...unless I gues the real female gets some "tool" attached to her and performs on you with you taking the female role, but then that would make it more or less a hetro sexual activity.

it's like two guys being together...one takes one role (usually what a hetrosexual would consider female) and the other the male or heterosexual role...

Another senerio is for a CD to perform the female role with a guy and in that case although it is "gay sex" between two guys they are performing in a heterol sexual manner....

To add to DD original comment it has amazed me over the eyars for hetro-sexual males/straight guys in one breath to be so ant-gay in all therir statmets and views and then in the next breath tell how mcuh the idea of having or watching two females get it on together turns them on. I for myself have never understood the rational behind that type of view!!!!! I second the "pleaaaaase!!!! that DD expressed....

DD was talking about CDs and their expectations of SOs - not straight men being anti-gay and turned on by lesbians.

This is how a game of "telephone" gets started.

[TxKimberly]

. . . because I don't have a lot of interest in discussing sexuality here, but then I noticed who started the thread - a GG. Yes, I am male enough that this intrigued me. :-)

Even being hetro, many of us WOULD be delighted to have a wife or SO that maybe isn't 100% Hetro and might be willing to be intimate with us while we are "dressed". This in and of itself, I don't think is hypocritical. Just because I'm hetro doesn't mean that I insist everyone else in the world must be as well.
Now if you are a MTF crossdresser, and you rant and rave that you think homosexuality or Bisexuality are disgusting, and yet you turn around and hope for, demand, or expect, this kind of relationship with your SO then that is being hypocritical I think.

Besides, remember that we ARE talking in large part about fantasies. A fantasy does not need to make sense nor be based on logic in any way, shape, or form.

I also saw one or two responses I'd like to comment on:

. . . Since we CD's are generally in denial in the first place over our sexuality . . .

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but you appear to be implying that "we CD's" are "generally" homosexual or bisexual and just haven't figured it out yet. I think there have been far too many studies made showing that the majority of us ARE hetro for us to just throw it out the window and make an assumption like that.

DD, don`t you know that from a male hetro point of view, Male gayness is bad but ALL beautifull girls would just LOVE to kiss another girl! It just makes the world such a beautifull place!

Gotta agree with Alison! I have no moral problem with the thought of two men together. I figure that is their business and none of mine, but the thought of the actual "act" is . . . unpleasant and uncomfortable.
Now the thought of two women together is a whole different story. I've actually devoted some thought to this one and figure that if I think women are beautiful, it's only natural and right that everyone else in the world will too - including other women. Yes, i know this silly but hey . . .

[Brianna1]

I have read this whole line of posting twice as I wanted to really get into the spirit of what DD has tried to achieve by starting this. And I don't come on here every day so I'm late in posting maybe too late!! But as I see it what some of us do and I am/was guilty of it too, is not really getting under the skin, so to speak of our SOs and understanding why they might not be happy with what we do. Or if you like, really walking a mile in their shoes (don't care if it is a pun). For me I would at least once have sex, while dressed, with a male because I would want to get as close as I can to the feeling of being a sexually active woman. No, I don't want a gay relationship but I have hugged, and kissed gay males (my hairdressers) out of love in a friendship way because they are great people and have supported me in my lifestyle. I never felt any revulsion in the slightest as I did it, it felt a natural thing to do even though I wouldn't do that to just any guy as a matter of course. That observation, if you like is a revelation to me as a heterosexual CD (it was the first time I'd done that).
As I have also tried to do in threads I have started (at least one) DD is hoping to get us to think seriously about what our SOs feel and by doing that promote better relationships for US ALL. I know she will correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions here and I welcome it!

[DemonicDaughter]

I'd be curious to know where this comes from and why. If there's a personal experience to relay, I tend to think that's much more powerful and useful than "what if's?" and "how dare they's!" So what's going on DD?

Read the below.

As I have also tried to do in threads I have started (at least one) DD is hoping to get us to think seriously about what our SOs feel and by doing that promote better relationships for US ALL. I know she will correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions here and I welcome it!

Nope, you are quite right!

Here's the deal folks. I read these forums some days and think about how the posts sound from and "outside view". I KNOW most of you are loving, caring, wonderful individuals who have a lot to offer a SO. Yet then I read comments made, innocently as they are intended, sounding so opposite what the poster expresses elsewhere.

The lesbian fantasy was just the most "universal" example I could find. Does the fantasy bother me, hell no.

Its just that sometimes we all say something we don't realize can be taken wrong when read from another's point of view. READING some posts would imply that almost all MTF CDers all want that fantasy to be real and it makes many straight GGs feel really inadequate because they aren't attracted to the feminine.

All I wanted to do was make some people think about how it makes a SO feel to hear about the "ultimate" fantasy when the SO is aware they cannot fulfill it. Makes them feel they "aren't enough". That's all.

[Emily Anderson]

Its just that sometimes we all say something we don't realize can be taken wrong when read from another's point of view.

DD,

I understand your point, and agree that we need to think about what we are posting. I'm the first to understand that, seeing as I seem to rub a lot of people the wrong way On the other hand, I don't believe that we should all be "Miss goody two shoes" and say just what we think is PC.

It's a delicate balance I guess, and to be quite honest a lot of thoughts and feelings we have one day are refined the next... Life is a learning process!

[DemonicDaughter]

I understand your point, and agree that we need to think about what we are posting....

Its not about being PC, its about expressing one's self in a more complete manner.

Its one thing to say, "I want to find a woman and live the rest of our lives like lesbians!" Yes, its a fantasy, we all know it would never happen for one simple reason... there is a man involved and seeing how lesbians don't date men, they aren't going to be in a relationship with them. But that's not the point. The point is, those CDers who express that want to be in an all feminine relationship. Girl with gurl. Beautiful thing.

.... unless you're a GG who isn't attracted to the feminine and then its not so good for you. You'll instantly feel as if you aren't "accepting enough" or "woman enough". It makes a lot of straight women feel they cannot be "everything" to the person they love.

Now, were the above statement changed just a bit to say something like... "I have this fantasy of finding a woman that loves my feminine side enough to want to be with me dressed for the rest of my life." A slightly more realistic wish and a little less damaging to a woman's ego. No?

[Bilinda]

Well darn, I saw the title and I was so excited, since I live with two lesbians! But now I see it was meant differently. That said, my situation with my two lesbian friends I live with does sometimes have a lot of sexual tension.

Once I discovered "Bilinda" they were not quite sure what to think. Yes, I'll admit I said some stuff like "well you two like girls, here ya go, lets all have a threesome! lol."

I give Ashley footrubs, and she is a very "lipstick" lesbian. Kelly, who I have known forever, and I had some,, uh,,, learning experiences when we were younger. I'll have to make my own post about real lesbians sometime.

But to the point of the question, or statement, I would be very happy being a part of the girls life's as a extra "lesbian".

[NatalieBliss]

I must say I am one of the "lucky" ones that has had relations dressed. Despite the wig, bra, forms etc, it was heterosexual by the very nature of the genders involved. That being said it did have an aura of something a bit different than your regular everyday sex. Excuse me now while I am off to

[Valeria]

Please don't take offense as I am not trying to attack you personally, but the idea of labelling that kind of relationship/lifestyle you describe as lesbian will offend quite a few lesbians. I must ask my sister if she & her partner spend much time doing each other's makeup, shopping for clothes, making each other beautiful.

It certainly offended me. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a lesbian that wasn't offended.

[Valeria]

Being heterosexual means you find women sexually attractive. And being Cd means you enjoy assuming the persona, or at least dress, of a female.

So what's so outragious about the fantasy of wanting to incorporate the two? It's so logical. It makes total sense.

The point is that the mate of a heterosexual man is typically a heterosexual woman, and heterosexual women are usually not interested in engaging in "lesbian sex" (whatever it is y'all think that is). In fact, I'd argue that a straight woman can't engage in "lesbian sex", since I'd say being lesbian is a prerequisite.

For that matter, being a straight man and a gay woman are not the same thing. A heterosexual man in feminine clothing is not actually a lesbian (and a straight guy coopting the label is kind of insulting to lesbian women).

When I see someone self-identified as a heterosexual male trying to describe their having had sex while dressed as a woman with their girlfriend/wife as "lesbian sex", it squicks me. The questions I always want to ask are "Did she perceive it as lesbian sex? Does she know that you are asking her to roleplay a gay woman when you ask her to have sex with you while you are dressed?"

Somehow, I think the usual answer is no.

If she perceives you as a man and perceives herself as a straight woman engaging in slightly kinky but straight sex, then it isn't lesbian sex. If she does perceive it as lesbian sex (as some CDs apparently do), then you can't really expect her to participate.

[Oh BTW, "lesbian sex" often involves being nude...]

[Julogden]

Personally, I feel it doesn't make sense to expect most females to be happy about getting romantic with a male who looks female or at least is trying to look female. Most females are attracted to more-or-less traditional masculinity of one variety or another, and most aren't going to get excited about getting intimate with us while we're all femmed up.

That isn't to say that there aren't any straight females who are attracted to us (obviously, there are quite a few here on these forums), but my experience has been that they are quite the rare exception.

That's why I used to hang out in a women's bar, always hoping to meet women who were bi and might enjoy having someone who is a blend of both genders. Made plenty of friends, but most of the women I met were interested in other females when it came to romance. I did meet a few who were intrigued, but it never went very far. And I did meet one straight female who was very interested, but she was married already.

Carol

[Bilinda]

Well, today the genders are getting so blurred, it can be confusing. Ashley, the lipstick lesbian friend of mine, is very feminine and very much a lesbian.

Yet there is a club that has drag shows, and she loves to see them. One is a transsexual that has real breast, but still has a males genitals. She just loves her, and once said how she would jump at the chance to be intimate with her.

I said "you do know that she has ***k, right? She said I don't care, I'd still do her. Yet, the thought of doing it with a guy really turns her off. So how's that for logic!!!

[Bev06 GG]

That's the problem with labels, they are so limiting.

A GG being attracted to CD doesn't fit under the label of lesbianism, nor does it fit squarely under the label of heterosexism.

Should we coin a new term or should we say to hell with labels?

Thank you Donna. I enjoy a good relationship with my CD and dressed or not if we want to make love we do. I never think what he's wearing is a sexual turn on, unless its tight jockey shorts that is. I certainly never think of myself as a lesbian, I am just a woman who still fancies the pants of my partner.
Bev

[Valeria]

Well, today the genders are getting so blurred, it can be confusing. Ashley, the lipstick lesbian friend of mine, is very feminine and very much a lesbian.

Out of curiosity, where is she from that she actually uses the phrase "lipstick lesbian" to describe herself? Los Angeles?

In the circles I travel in, that phrase is generally considered condescending and insulting. It implies a degree of "pretend" lesbianism. I describe myself as a queer femme, but never as a lipstick lesbian. The only place I've heard of where it is commonly used to self describe is LA.

Yet there is a club that has drag shows, and she loves to see them. One is a transsexual that has real breast, but still has a males genitals. She just loves her, and once said how she would jump at the chance to be intimate with her.

I said "you do know that she has ***k, right? She said I don't care, I'd still do her. Yet, the thought of doing it with a guy really turns her off. So how's that for logic!!!

How do you see it as not being logical?? It seems perfectly logical and consistent to me.

She's attracted to women in general. In this case, she's still attracted to a woman. This particular woman she's attracted to just happens to have a transsexual history, and she hasn't had genital surgery (at least not yet). But she's still a woman, so you've lost me at how this is illogical or inconsistent.

Now, if the male genitalia are part of the attraction for her, she may have a latent bisexual streak. But I can see how a pre-op trans female could be attractive to her, and yet her still be totally turned off by guys.

[MeraLehanga]

Yes, i enjoy sex wearing petticoat, skirt and bra. Its the feel of dress that turns me on , no, I dont feel like a lesbian.

[Lara Smith]

So many valid points. But our predicament by its very nature is purely fantasy in every way! There is nothing real about it. (Except for what we personally experience) Maybe that is why it is so great and so appealing. It is a wonderful place to go. The problem lies in how we deal with it. It's all good until it begins to consume and control our lives and when we try to force those around us to deal with it too. Most of them can't or won't. It is our fantasy, not theirs. We're just lucky when someone wants to or can share it. But it has to be because they want to!

For the most part, I hate the labels too. Then again, with the rainbow of human sexuality, we need to call something...well something, so we at least know where we are starting in terms of communicating all the amazing varieties of sexuality. Necessary evil? I do like the “fem to fem” description.

[Vaerise]

Is it just me or... most guys think its hot when two girls make-out and its disgusting when two guys make-out?

[CaptLex]

Is it just me or... most guys think its hot when two girls make-out and its disgusting when two guys make-out?

It's just you