Job application. Do I or don't I

[MonaSmith]

Hi all,

OK, so I am sitting here with a job application form in front of me and I'm after a few opinions.

The job is a permanent position in the Home Office, where I am currently working as agency staff. The job itself isn't a problem, I have been doing it for just over a year, the problem is the application form.

As part of the Equal opportunities scheme there is a little questionaire in the back, the usual, race, religion, age, gender thing. There is also a little box headed GENDER IDENTITY and under it it says "If you identify as transexual or transgender (in that you have effected a permanent change of gender identity) or as an intersex, which group do you identify with?" Then there are three tick boxes: Transexual, Transgender, Intersex.

As some of you know, I am out to a few, if not most (office gossip spreads fast where I work), people at work, including my manager and her manager. I wear mascara on a daily basis (which I thought was quite subtle and unnoticed until yesterday, but that's another story) and always have my nails painted, and quite frankly am not exactly masculine in my mannerisms.

So do I tick the box, and make it official? I don't think that it will make any difference to my job prospects as the Government is very (over?) sensitive to 'diversity issues'. I'm just not sure about the "in that you have effected a permanent change" bit. What the hell does that mean? I pluck my eyebrows but they do keep trying to grow back!!! Do I have to chop something off to be transgendered?

Any ideas, thoughts, insults, jokes (you know that you want to Julie) to help a girl out?

Thanks

Mona xx.

[Tristen Cox]

I would say intersex(I think). "in that you have effected a permanent change" sounds like they mean are you post op and had your physical body altered permanently. Being truthful you can't really say that you have done that yet. Just my thoughts on the issue. Yeah I know shut up Tristen

[obsessedwithpantyhose]

Mona i think u should check the box that follows how ur heart thinks and feels

[Stephanie Brooks]

I'm just not sure about the "in that you have effected a permanent change" bit. What the hell does that mean? I pluck my eyebrows but they do keep trying to grow back!!! Do I have to chop something off to be transgendered?

Hi Mona!

IANAL... or in this case, IANAB...

[I Am Not A Lawyer/Barrister]

In the US, this could imply that you are genetically of one sex but have legally changed your gender to that opposite your biological sex. For the transsexual, this would probably be in a transitioning period. For a transgender (transgenderist), there is no physical change forthcoming.

My guess is that unless you will be working as a woman and expect to be fully treated as a woman - as in using the women's rest room / loo / toilet - you probably shouldn't check the box.

You could contact your human resources people and ask them.

Just my thoughts. Hope this helps!

[MonaSmith]

Hi girls, thanks for the input.

The terminology might be different over there, but here I think intersexed means actual genetic crossgendering (like XY women), I'm not certain though.

It is indeed a puzzler. I mean I am transgendered by MY definition of the term, but I'm not sure if I am by theirs?

Mona xx.

[SissyPanties]

I think I would agree with Stephanie. I probably wouldn't check anything. Of course, you could always ask human resources. If you plan to go to work crossdressed, I would definitely ask. They could fire you if they think you lied on this section of the form.

[tgirlkari]

I think it would be best to go to the Human resources dept and ask them. If you wear mascara and painted nails in a office they already know dear.

[Stephanie Brooks]

I didn't even address intersex as I figured that was pretty well understood. Oops!

Here's a link to the Intersex Society of America, fwiw:

http://www.isna.org/

Again I think the intersex "option" on the form is to clarify an individual's gender to the organization.

[Stephanie Brooks]

On "transgender", I don't know how it is in the UK, but probably 8 - 10 years ago in the US some individuals identified as "transgenderist". These were people who wanted to live in the gender opposite their sex WITHOUT having SRS. It was a legal status. It was and is a confusing term, given that "transgender" is typically used to denote all transgendered people, and the other terms denote subsets.

http://www.firelily.com/gender/giann...enderists.html

[Mia001]

Hi,

I don't think they want to know if you wear makeup or nail polish. I think they areasking if you on the road to becoming a woman. Have you been taking hormones, living as a woman, had surgery to change your gender? That kind of thing.

If you've started down that road it would probably be best to tick the box and tell them. If you haven't started down that road or don't intend to then no.

Mascara and nail polish aren't permanent. That's not what they're asking for. I don't think they care if you cross dress at home. If you intend to dress as a woman at work then that's another matter.

Hope this helps,

Mark.

[MonaSmith]

Thanks girls,

I have pretty much decided to talk to my manager about it on Monday to ask her opinion, but I was just trying to get it straight in my head.

Stephanie, thanks for all the info, it is a lot more complicated than I thought.

Marko, I am just starting out on the road, I'm not sure how far I am going to take it yet, but I know that I am not just in it for the 'weekend dressing' It will get more obvious as I progress. the nails and mascara are just small, comfortable steps, I have strides to take before I have finished.

Mona xx

[Sharon]

Mona,
I think your decision to speak to your manager is a good one. You may also want to discuss this with the head of the Human Resources Dept. Since you're already open about yourself at your job, it should be relatively painles to at least inquire about this.
Good luck and I wish all the best for you!

[Wendy me]

i would say inter sexed , but ask them to be shure.... nouthing is ever just easy is it?????????

[carolynhcd]

Given that you think that the Government might be overly concerned with diversity, I think you should tick the box that most guarantees your FUTURE freedom. It shouldn't then matter what you choose to progress to, as no one can dictate how fast any transition should be. In the meantime, it would allow you to wear anything you fancied without worry of repercussions and to use whichever loo was appropriate to your choice of dress that day. I wish you all the best Mona; you are one pretty girl.

[MonaSmith]

Thank you all for your comments and support, I really do appreciate it.

I'm going to play it by ear I think. I am inclined to tick the transgender box, as that is what I am, and it would, as carolyn says (thank you hon), cover me for whatever I decide in the future. Why can't this stuff be more black and white? If I'm not sure what I am/where I am going, how are they supposed to legislate to prevent discrimination against me? We are all in a very confused state.

Mona. xx.

[Mandy Salamander]

Mona, I do believe you're making the right decision, I only wish I could have that decision to make, if I were outed at work, would be in more ways than one. I dress 90% time out of office but don't really know how far I'll go, I'd check transgendered box with pride if only given choice, but is wise to consult others, get opinions first. Also please see thread I'll be leaving soon about job, I've also had a situation and would like to know what others think.

[Jeannie9]

Hello Mona,

If you are part of a union I would strongly recommend that you talk with a shop steward to find out more about EE (Employment Equity) and how it applies in your workplace i.e. disclosure, recourse etc...

If you are a member I'm positive that you will get that answer that you are looking for.

Good luck,

Jeannie

[Sweet Jeanette]

Yeah!-------I have a thought!---Do you want the job?------If so, then LIE LIKE HELL!-------Go with the flow!---Do you like to eat?, ---& pay the mortgage, and the car payment,--(have a house, and a car to drive?)-----"feed your kiddies?---etc?------Then feed the employers what they want to hear!---NOT, what you think is right!----Weather you know it or not, the workplace is STILL ruled by males, and their male values!---Discrimination is STILL rampant out there!---I dont care HOW MANY laws have been passed!!!----Do this, and you will SURVIVE!---To give in to your ideals, and to put them on paper, is only another way to cut your own throat!------I KNOW!----I have BEEN there!--------And, ---I Survive!----------Pardon me.--- guess I am too crass, in my own thinking!

[Stephanie Brooks]

Yeah!-------I have a thought!---Do you want the job?------If so, then LIE LIKE HELL!-------Go with the flow!---Do you like to eat?, ---& pay the mortgage, and the car payment,--(have a house, and a car to drive?)-----"feed your kiddies?---etc?------Then feed the employers what they want to hear!---NOT, what you think is right!----Weather you know it or not, the workplace is STILL ruled by males, and their male values!---Discrimination is STILL rampant out there!---I dont care HOW MANY laws have been passed!!!----Do this, and you will SURVIVE!---To give in to your ideals, and to put them on paper, is only another way to cut your own throat!------I KNOW!----I have BEEN there!--------And, ---I Survive!----------Pardon me.--- guess I am too crass, in my own thinking!

That sounds like selling out to me. It sounds as if you've got some issues. For that I'm sorry. While the world has problems, it's a pretty good place overall.

It also sounds as if you may not have noticed a few things she said. It would appear she's actually fine with the job. Also, the application seems to be inclusive of gender issues; it seems non-discriminatory. Her dilemma is in how to respond.

From Mona's posts here, in other threads, and on another forum site, I'd guess she's doing quite well. She works in an office where she can be accepted while being somewhat androgynous. She's not being oppressed, at least from what I gather.

Frankly, my guess is that the application process for which she has a question is mostly a formality. The gender question - I suspect - is designed to allow for the accommodation of any special needs. It probably also serves to count the number of people who are being accommodated for gender related issues.

[Cathe TV]

I'm afraid I find myself disagreeing with almost everyone. I personally cannot think of a single good thing that would come from even considering checking ANY of the available boxes. Your private life is your business. Consider the possible risks of electing to make your CDing known, as far as security clearences, etc.

I would not worry now about what you "eventually" may decide, e.g. transitioning or SRS. All in good time. And what if you DON'T go further? You are already exposed. What people think they know doesn't mean a thing.

Don't do it.

[Holly]

Mona, I so admire your courage and your conviction. I think you are wise to seek guidance, although seeing someone in HR would be an option I would take a closer look at. Monday should be a rather exciting day for you!

[Elysia]

I’m inclined to agree with Cathe. I think it is wise to be cautions. This is information that once given is out of your hands and it is hard to know what will become of it. It may be different in the UK but here I think checking such a box could be a liability. I can not envision a realistic scenario in which you could be taken to task for not checking a box. Discretion is the better part of valor.

[MonaSmith]

Hi again girls,

I'm sorry that I am not answering individual posts but I am getting a lot more responses than I thought that I would (thank you for that).

I will try and answer a few of the points raised though.

I outed myself at work, on purpose, so that I could express myself more freely and not have to worry about 'letting anything slip'. The anti decrimination laws over here are very, very strongly enforced in the Home Office, it is an advantage to be out at work as it protects me from any discrimination. The HO even have an in-house support group for the transgendered which is accessable to everyone on their intranet. I am NOT going to lose my job over being transgendered.

I'm not part of the union there, as I am currently agency staff, but I am friends with someone on the union board and she has stated that if I had any problems she would go in to bat for me.

Hot Lust walking: Lying on an application form WILL get me fired, being transgendered won't. Being dishonest about who/what I am is not something that I will do anymore. Discrimination is not tolerated in the UK Government for fear of scandal and negative press, they are very hot on it. I'm sorry if your experiences have been different, but I'm not in that position.

Stephanie, again thank you, you've hit the nail firmly on the head. This is about the wording of the form, not about coming out or staying hidden. I am already out/coming out at work.

A lot of you seem to think that I am exposing myself to discrimination by checking the box. I am transgendered, should I go back to hiding it? Tell everyone it was a silly joke and get back in my closet? I might not take it any further, which I doubt, but I will always be transgendered. Isn't this another, admittedly very small and safe, step in the right direction?

I really do appreciate the concern, and I value all the input that you have given me so far.

Thank you

Mona xx.

[Julie York]

I don't think you need to tick any box. It isn't as if you are doing anything that requires a consideration of whether you are transgendered or not...right now. And in the future, should you wish to 'take it further' I am sure you can officially declare yourself AFTER you've got the job and settled in.

(I couldn't think of anything funny. I'll get you next time! )



Mascara story? Tell us the mascara story.

[MonaSmith]

Hi Julie,

My thinking is that if I do tick the box, and declare it officially, it gives me a better level of protection at work. It sounds a bit mercenary, I know, but it would give me some 'evidence' of my transgenderism, rather than just word of mouth from my friends and collegues. It would be a purely selfish decision on my part. It was just the way that it was worded that has thrown me a bit.

I'll speak to my manager tomorrow about it and let you all know what happens.

As to the mascara story, it's nothing too amazing. I have been wearing it for a few weeks now, at first quite subtley, but as time goes by, less and less so. Nobody has mentioned it, even among the people that I am not out to. I haven't even noticed any double-takes or curious looks. I suppose it was a bit disappointing really, lol. Anyway, on Friday one of my GG friends emailed me a silly 'how well do you know your friend' questionaire thing. You each have to answer the questions on it, and then swap back and compare. On one of the questions, "Does your friend have any special talents?", she wrote 'putting on mascara so well with those long nails'. It just made my day, is all. She also put that a good nickname for me would be Miss thang, that if we were stranded on a desert Island I would bring my make-up bag, and we both put that our favourite memory of each other was when I showed her my Mona pic for the first time. She also seemed to think that my middle name was Maria, lol.

Mona xx.