Pretty nice guy? Doesn't sound like it. Why are you friends with this person?
Pretty nice guy? Doesn't sound like it. Why are you friends with this person?
[SIZE="3"]Gender is a state of mind[/SIZE]
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The world is not a perfect place by any means and we cannot expect everyone to be a model of tolerance. It's just not going to happen. I'm perfectly happy with who I am, but that doesn't mean that I have the expectation that everyone else will be. I think places like this exist so we can talk about the issues and feelings we have with others who will be accepting of this part of us that, perhaps, even our best friends just would not accept because they do not have to do so and have not, for the most part, been taught to do so. My children are very young and I have no plans to hide myself from them because I would like to encourage them to be who they are and accept everyone for who they are and make decisions about people based on their actions and not their attire. As I see it, as an atheist cross-dressing progressive, I try to be tolerant of the religious mainstream population when I could just as easily be nasty because their existence does not offend mine own. But I also understand that the people I am tolerant of most likely will not, at this moment in time, extend my the same courtesy. I am hoping that the world will evolve to the point that this will change. As my gay friends can get married now (best weddings ever - except for mine own!), I have hope.
I often wonder if they just act like that because they feel like they must in front of other people, a bit like saying i am a mans man .
joanne
Joanne, I'm sure that's a part of it. I'm sure we've all been in a crowd of guys and heard that group macho thing that happens when guys try to prove how masculine they are. I hear it from my students all the time and whenever that crap language comes into my Drama Room, I do my best to stomp it out. I remind that that my room is safe for people of all stripes and they need to learn to respect that other people are different and, especially in the theatre, embrace the differences that make us all unique and interesting. People who only like to be with people who are just like them are simply boring. They deserve each other.Originally Posted by joanne f
I'll go with Ruth's thoughts. Since he DID NOT openly express intolerance, nor do anything confrontational; I would have to give him the benefit of the doubt.
At that moment he might have bitten down on a bad tooth, might have been thinking about alimony payments, and we could name a million other things. I think until he genuinely proves his distaste, I would leave it alone. I would put my perceptions/personal feelings aside and just wait to see what happens. A friendship takes a long time to build, and it's very wasteful to throw it away.
But if you care to do it, you have a chance for a golden opportunity. Sometimes when people are confronted with reality, they can instantly change their thought processes. Ever been in a conversation with someone and as an example; say something derogatory about alcoholics or the whole process at AA. It's a real shock and usually instantly teaches you something, when that person responds; "Your just wrong about that, I've been in AA for 20 years and they saved my life."
I think you could do the same with a conversation about Transgenderism. It just might open your friend's eyes. I'll bet he likes you as a person, what he might learn about you might change his perceptions.
Peace and Love, Joanie
nothing changes in America when it comes to social tolerance.
This topic made me think about my own children. My oldest daughter (35yrs) has made some very intolerant remarks regarding TG persons. When she said them it hurt me. I didn't say anything. I tried to think back if i had ever taught her to think that way and couldnt remember that I did. I taught her to treat people how you would want to be treated. At least thats what I think I did. Society, the media and who knows what else molds us. I can remember putting my children on the school bus and thinking what are they learning on the way to school. As I get older I am becoming more intolerant of intolerant people.
Amen!
Intolerance results from insecurity IMO. Would you abandon a friend because they were insecure about something else? Of course not. Obviously if your friend ever exhibits this hatred towards you it would be much different, but in the mean time I think what you did (trying to divert his attention) should be applauded. There are many people out there (not CD'ers of course) who would have done nothing to even attempt to intervene.
I agree with all that feel you cannot throw out a friendship on a single issue. If we do that we will soon the political polarizations of our society ... and that would be sad.
Try and teach your friend, gently, some tolerance. One of my best friends would freak out if he knew of my dressing. I do not know if he would stop speaking to me, but I think it is possible. So, slowly, I am trying to let him see a better way to view differences in people.
C.
Having spent most of my adult life in the military, I firmly believe that EVERYONE has a right to his or her opinion. I may not agree with , or think it is right, that opinion but it is they'rs. Just as everyone wears different clothing, everyone thinks differently. He may have had a negative experience. If that was my friend, I would ask if there was something wrong with the lunch/drink to engage the conversation. If he mentions the CD/TS state your thoughts and opinions.
We all have flaws, not a single person on this planet is perfect. I respect everyones right to express and have their own thoughts and opinions, no matter how wrong I think they might be.
Just throwing a little gas onto the fire.
The reason I say he is a good guy is that he is probably the hardest working guy I have ever known. He owns his own business and is fairly succesful. He devotes a lot of time to his wife, 2 sons and daughter. If you are his friend, he will do anything he can to help you. He has helped many of his employess when they had problems of all sorts, from personal to financial problems. He is extremely knowledgable on a surprising number subjects from fine art to finances to construction. Unfortunately, he seems to have gone through life with a chip on his shoulder. He was small for his age in school but he refused to back down from anyone which cost him a lot of ass whippings from the school bully until he earned the bully's respect and they became lifelong friends. He can be extremely opionated about numerous subjects which includes anything other than "normal" heterosexual behavior. I did not miss-read his behavior. When he saw this lady he put his utensils down, slid back in his chair and had his arms straight out with his hand sitting on the table. He quit talking in mid sentence, turned his head slightly sideways and stared at her out of the corner of his eyes. His jaw was tightly clenched. I would have intervened if he had tried to stand up or do anything else. But I succesfully got his attention and he let it go.
Maybe he is insecure. I wouldn't rule that out. I just know that I am glad that nothing really happened. I don't see us ever discussing sexual variations, but I know that I have managed to get him to alter some of his viewpoints about other subjects. I have him fooled because he says he respects my intelligence. So he does listen to me on occasion.
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
You know this guy, I don't, but I have had 'friends' like him in the past and my own experience has taught me that I absolutely don't need and can't be, for my own health and safety, around people like this. They are usually so numb and full of seething hatred that you're just putting yourself on the line or else condoning what he does, says, and in the end thinks. But you know him better and could guage whether you think he's redeemable.
Personally with how you described him, if you told me he was letting me use his waterfront estate for a weekend I'd say 'no thanks'. It's behaviour like that, even comments, that cause heartache and danger for others. I have zero tolerance for it. I'm glad some of you do, although I do think not saying anything in the presence of rude and intolerant comments is de facto condoning it.
If he's a nice guy he wouldn't be intolerant and make rude and offensive remarks.This guy is really a pretty nice guy for the most part and he has been a friend of mine for at least 30 years. I just can't understand that level of hatred to someone who has never done anything to hurt you. I wonder how he would react if he found out about me? We probably wouldn't be eating lunch together anymore.
Personally I think we excuse far too much of what we think is minor bad behaviour, which is just part of a continuum of hatred, intolerance, and discrimination, all stuff that we as a misunderstood and marginalized group are likely targets of.
"I dwell in possibility."
"Say what you want and be who you are, because those who matter don't mind, and those who matter don't mind."--Dr. Seuss
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw
Drop the guy off in the middle of a gay pride parade.
It takes a true Erin to be a pain in the assatar.
So what did he say when you told him about your being TG or CD or however you ID yourself? All my real friends know who I am and embrace me and all my sisters out there or I don't bother with them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Living the Dream!
Regina
Like I said, I don't really see us talking about sexual variations. There is only one person IRL who knows about my interests. And he isn't that one person. I am amazed at those of you who have told your friends. I admire your courage. That just isn't me. It is not something I want to share with anyone except for my one very special GG firend.
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
It isn't really courage, Chiana. It's up to each of us to recognize what's important to us. For some of us we want our friends to know. For others there's no desire nor reason. That's okay too. There's lots of stuff we don't tell friends, and this is pretty private territory for lots of people.
FWI I've probably told about 20 people IRL about me and only 6 were men - two doctors, two brothers, and two friends of family who I never told directly.
My therapist agreed that telling men is much more problematic. None of the males I told (or my mom told) are what I would call macho. In fact quite the opposite.
Your pal sounds like someone who maybe it would be better to not tell if you want to be friends... unless he totally surprises you with acceptance. Some people are like that. From what you described, I doubt your friend is. But maybe loyalty trumps hatred for him. If it doesn't...eek.
"I dwell in possibility."
"Say what you want and be who you are, because those who matter don't mind, and those who matter don't mind."--Dr. Seuss
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw
There are some ways to get short sighted individuals to see things differently,when noting these disgusting looks by people in the past ,I've asked them"what happened were you offended,robbed or taken advantage of by someone transgender in the past"?No, they usually say.Then it's only because they are different that you harbor these pent up hateful feelings .... So if we walk them to a point in their own insecurity's they will hopefully see the negativity in their attitude.
I agree with the old saying "in medio stat virtus".
Either unreasonable intolerance or being unreasonably too much tolerant hurt as much, I mean.
To a certain extent it is a wise behaviour to "excuse" other people for their shortcomings. But there are to be limits. Or you will find yourself to excuse every behaviour, and to become very unwise.
Not to forget :
Who can't say nothing is the one who agrees.
Kisses
Nadia
What a great thread! Being a human being means we all have flaws.........being bigger then most means we can over look and forgive the flaws in others.
I loved the way Kimberly addressed it about flaws and sensativities intersecting.
I love this site! Thanks
Jenny
Chiana - your perception of his feelings is probably corret. Like others have pointed out, he didn't actually say or do anything. Lets give him credit for that much.
Gen
Since he DID NOT openly express intolerance, nor do anything confrontational; I would have to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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