I give up!

[battybattybats]

DD I agree entirely with you and support you 100% in this.
I certainly don't want to derail your important message or to take it off topic. I was responding to what I think is part of the cause of the problem. I think a form of sexism is a big part of the problem.



This is possibly the most important discussion here in a long while.

[GypsyKaren]

GEEZE LOUISE!!! There are billions of people in this world. Wouldn't it be a shame if everyone was "perfect"? It's just too bad that people cannot look past the outside and see the inner beauty of humanity.

(In a perfect world )

And your point is exactly...what? I hope you're not suggesting that we smile and whistle with the birdies when someone is rude, insulting, or disgusting to us, because the only inner beauty I'll be checking out is my boot up their ass.

Karen Starlene

[Kate Simmons]

What it boils down to DD is respect. We show it, we get it. Why is that so hard for some to understand? Regardless of what we are genderwise or how "male" or "female" we are, it's the people who are important. We are all a Heinz 57 blend anyway. Let's celebrate that diversity and show love and respect for our friends because that is what really makes the world go around. Works for me.

[Satrana]

"hey! This is an issue, let's try to address it!"

DD

As someone who has complained about the over-indulgence in femininity and fantasies that are so common in the CD community as being a less than healthy attitude, I agree with the general sentiments you hold. However, I am concerned where your specific POV in this thread is going. It sounds to me that this is a call to censorship. What I hear is that CDs must now bash and be intolerant of other members who hold a point of view that they do not agree with. By doing so we prove our tolerance to laypeople who want to join the forum......somewhere in there is a catch 22, just cannot figure out what it is.

This forum is meant to be a safe place where CDs do not have to hide in fear of others' beliefs of how a CD should think or behave. It is where we can let our hair down and wallow in the stuff that interests us as CDs. If a layperson visits and decides that we are not their cup of tea, then that is fine. We want people to accept us warts and all. If we disgust them then let us part ways.

This forum is for CDs to chat to one another and to advance knowledge and ideas. It is not meant to be an advertisement to convince laypeople to believe we are all cute and cuddly especially if they have no interest in investing their time and effort into finding out who we are by sticking around and talking to us.

You ask what is the adult way to deal with this? Surely that is obvious. In an forum with thousands of members you are guaranteed to come across some whose POV annoys you, maybe even disgusts you. The adult way of dealing with this is to ignore those individuals and strike up friendships and conversations with those whose POV are closer to your own.

The alternative is to drive out members because you disagree with them. At which point this no longer becomes a representative community but a controlled group with a big brother/sister deciding what POVs are allowable. Which will only drive CDs back into the closet as we now have to behave in a manner sanctioned by others. Now I have lost track of who is being intolerant of whom.

[erickka]

DD, very well stated post. I always try to see a person as a whole, and on an individual basis. I know very few GG's that wear skirts anymore, but they are still all creatures if inner beauty and femininity. Fully agreed that the clothing DOES NOT make the woman!

[DemonicDaughter]

DD I agree entirely with you and support you 100% in this.
I certainly don't want to derail your important message or to take it off topic. I was responding to what I think is part of the cause of the problem. I think a form of sexism is a big part of the problem.



This is possibly the most important discussion here in a long while.

I know its part of the issues, but we also know that we have to take things a step at a time. To attempt to break down the causes will only take focus off the main topic and thus make this thread pointless.

...I am concerned where your specific POV in this thread is going...

Let me put your fears to rest then.

It sounds to me that this is a call to censorship.

Yes. You hear correctly. I am. I'm hoping people are intelligent and sensitive enough to censor themselves. I started the thread to make them aware that some of the things they post are hurtful and can drive those who would support them, away.

What I hear is that CDs must now bash and be intolerant of other members who hold a point of view that they do not agree with...

I never said to bash anyone. I said to stand up for what you believe in. I said that if this is something you don't agree with then you should say so. I said ignoring issues doesn't make them go away.

This forum is meant to be a safe place where CDs do not have to hide in fear of others' beliefs....

This forum is NOT just for CDs! Its also for people like ME who has a CDer in their life. For those who are learning to live with a CDer, for those who want a better education on CDing. It is NOT JUST for CDers and that is part of the point.

The adult way of dealing with this is to ignore those individuals and strike up friendships and conversations with those whose POV are closer to your own.

Well then I'm proud to claim I'm not an adult. Because to me, I think the mature way of handling something is to openly discuss it. To work out a sort of resolution or at least try to. Your POV would put us all in little groups never dealing, helping or educating others because we wouldn't interact with those outside our group.

The alternative is to drive out members because you disagree with them...

You seem to think I want to banish those members who made rude comments. I haven't the slightest clue where you got that from but were that the case, I would have posted a link to the threads and exact offensive posts hoping to "drive them away" by either embarrassing them or having everyone verbally abuse them through this thread.

But seeing as I did not do that, it would appear that yet again, I'm attempting to WORK things out.

Honestly, I'd have a hell of a LOT more threads started had I felt the need to argue over EVERY opinion I disagreed with. We need to pick and choose our battles. This one has come up numerous times. Why not try a civil discussion and see what might come out of it?

And for the record, freedom of speech is not freedom of abuse. Censorship has its purpose to a degree. Its not going to make a perfect world and can be just as abused. But anyone's right to self expression needs not border on the line of another persons defamation.

[Tamara Croft]

GEEZE LOUISE!!! There are billions of people in this world. Wouldn't it be a shame if everyone was "perfect"? It's just too bad that people cannot look past the outside and see the inner beauty of humanity.

(In a perfect world )

And it's posts like yours that piss people off, instead of getting a clue, you post crap like this which pisses more people off, what are you a troll? because you come across like one

In the interests of fairness though, and to make the point that it is grossly unfair to imply that the CD's here never come to the defense of GG's when idiotic topics like that come up, I offer this link to a thread where the response was immediate and over whelming:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...89#post1200789

Yes but look how long ago that thread was and look at the rules in place now forbidding such threads... that was the only way to put a stop to it. Had members of this forum said hey... you shouldn't be posting that, instead of always agreeing, maybe they would have just stopped on their own accord... that is but one thread again Kimberly, there are hundreds deleted, due to the fact that they often turned into a 'bash the gg' or whoever they were discussing.

[Sandra]

I have to agree with DD that this forum does turn away the GGs. They probably should have their own forum with their own moderators instead of reading our sometimes selfish posts.

Erm we have our own private forum here and it's very own mods, but why should we be kept in there? This forum is for cders and their friends and family.

I guess we should just go and sit in there quietly and say and do nothing.

[Holly]

It seems to me that this all boils down to this... if you want to be respected, then be respectful. Honestly, some of the things I've seen said here I would NEVER say to my wife, let alone someone I don't know very well. It is a very shallow person that will attempt to puff up their own self esteem at the expense of someone else's. If you can only feel good by making someone else feel bad, you might be in the wrong place.

[Daintre]

Erm we have our own private forum here and it's very own mods, but why should we be kept in there? This forum is for cders and their friends and family.

I guess we should just go and sit in there quietly and say and do nothing.

It seems to me that this all boils down to this... if you want to be respected, then be respectful.

Sandra, my goodness, that is the Last place I would like to see you go. It has taken a lot of hard work to get to where we are today, certainly not as far as we wish to be, but a step in the right direction. We all have our private little forums, they have a purpose, but, I want the ability to interact with all members of the Forum, which leads me to Holly's quote. respect, why is it so hard to comprehend that word? No one wants to be dissed, personally I get very upset at some posts that are written, and yes to back up what Tamara has said...you wouldn't believe the trash that has to be deleted.

Finally I will say this, I am sure it will fall on deaf ears, but I am saying it anyway.....there is a tag at the top of the page...says... Rules/FAQ. How many have actually taken the time to read them?. They amply explain what the Forum is about and the conduct we expect from the membership. It irks me to no end that threads like this are necessary.

DD I applaud you for sticking with this issue not throwing your hands up and walking away. This is a community for all of us, the great thing about this is we get to visit most forums here, the least we can do is remember to be respectful.

[GypsyKaren]

It sounds to me that this is a call to censorship.

Yes. You hear correctly. I am. I'm hoping people are intelligent and sensitive enough to censor themselves.

Thank you, DD, that's very well said. I would like to add that if anyone has a problem doing that, we are more than happy to do it for them.

You can take all of the rules here and condense all of them into two words: BE POLITE! Sounds simple enough to me, sounds pretty easy to do, I don't think it's asking too much, but too many don't get it or give a damn. No one has the right to judge anyone else, not here or anywhere, and you can scream insults at whoever you want out your bedroom window, but you won't be doing it here.

Karen Starlene

[CaptLex]

Masculine women are beautiful too! They are every bit as valid as people as feminine women. Decrying them or pretending they don't exist are both sexist aren't they?

I think a very very feminine man can indeed be more feminine than a very very masculine woman who will be more masculine than the very very feminine man. I don't see anything wrong with that and I don't suggest for one moment that being masculine invalidates the womans womanhood or femaleness nor feminine the mans manhood or maleness.

We need to respect womens masculinity too! Not insult or deride some for it nor pretend it dosn't exist either.

This whole discussion does show how much transgender brings to the surface all the many facets of the underlying sexism that runs through our society.

I don't want to take the thread off-topic, but reading this has made me realize something I'd like to share.

Not only does the above-described sexism cause the attitudes and negative comments aimed at GGs (here and everywhere), but it finally explains to me the same attitudes aimed at FtMs. I realize many see us as crossdressing women, generally, and as such they think we're denying our femininity and not embracing what they themselves wish they had. Okay, so it took me long enough to finally get that.

I thought most here could understand that we're on the opposite side of the same coin, but I guess they're just too blinded by what they think a female-bodied person should be (or look like) to get it.

Anyway, sorry to take things off course a bit - I didn't think the thought needed its own thread because I can see how that attitude affects both FtMs and GGs. Bottom line: don't judge others by how you want to see them, just as you don't want others to judge you by how they think you should be.

It's really sad that so many post here about looking for understanding SOs, but they're not necessarily willing to be understanding in return. They want GGs to like and accept them as they are, but aren't willing to do the same in return. Yes, I know it's not true of everyone here, but there are certainly enough with that attitiude, judging by how hurt the GGs are here.

What it boils down to DD is respect. We show it, we get it. Why is that so hard for some to understand? Regardless of what we are genderwise or how "male" or "female" we are, it's the people who are important. We are all a Heinz 57 blend anyway. Let's celebrate that diversity and show love and respect for our friends because that is what really makes the world go around. Works for me.

Oh if only more people drank from the same tap water you do, my friend.

[smokey]

it's probably all been said, but a few more sentences...thanks for the post DD...i've been on internet forums of various subjects for several years and no matter what the subject, disrespect and poor treatment always come up. have moderated more than one and been on the receiving end of those nasty PM's and posts.

i think we are all more than a whole bunch of initials...CD..GG...M2F...
F2M...SO...under there; we are humans and what we do ultimately comes from that. yes i guess cd's can get caught up in fantasy...gg's can get turned off and scared by reading...people put others down to feel better...but it still comes down to our HUMAN values inside there that can be applied to everything we say or do.

yep holly respect is a key.

i'm new here, there's a lot i haven't read...but i do for sure know respect goes two ways. that's not censorship, it's editing.

[Momarie]

Sometimes I wonder at the anger and viciousness directed toward the GG's on here, either very subtlety or transparently.

Is it women in general that you hate?
When you direct that hatred towards us who are you really angry at?

[Satrana]

Yes. You hear correctly. I am. I'm hoping people are intelligent and sensitive enough to censor themselves. I started the thread to make them aware that some of the things they post are hurtful and can drive those who would support them, away.

But pretty much anything can be construed as hurtful by someone else. What if I said this post hurts my feelings, will you then apologize and withdraw? Your assertion only holds
true if the person knowingly and deliberately said something that he knows is hurtful to another. If he is asserting his POV which he feels is correct and truthful and is not aimed at any particular person then he should not feel under any obligation to censor himself.

I never said to bash anyone. I said to stand up for what you believe in. I said that if this is something you don't agree with then you should say so. I said ignoring issues doesn't make them go away.

You may not bash yourself DD but others will, you need only read the comments on this thread to see there are plenty of people who will be eager to take up the cause and attack people if this idea becomes an "official" policy. That is the very real danger in your proposal.

This forum is NOT just for CDs! Its also for people like ME who has a CDer in their life. For those who are learning to live with a CDer, for those who want a better education on CDing. It is NOT JUST for CDers and that is part of the point.

I never said it was, I said CDers should be free to be CDers in this forum. Censoring ourselves so as not to offend laypeople who are not interested in getting to know us is a major imposition.

Well then I'm proud to claim I'm not an adult. Because to me, I think the mature way of handling something is to openly discuss it.

If the conversation can be kept mature and civil fine, but trying to change people's POV is usually a difficult and thankless task. After all how open are you to understanding their POV and acknowledging you are wrong? If both parties enter a conversation convinced they are in the right then no progress will be made.

Your POV would put us all in little groups never dealing, helping or educating others because we wouldn't interact with those outside our group.

Nope, just reflecting whatr happens in real life. We seek out friendship with others who share a similar POV and we limit or ignore contact with those who have opposite and possibly insulting POV. How many Hitler followers or members of the KKK do you seek to engage in conversation? This is realism vs idealism.

You seem to think I want to banish those members who made rude comments.

This is the logical conclusion of what will likely happen if members are targeted as having the "wrong" POV, they will be pushed and badgered and eventually be caught in nasty verbal exchanges.

But seeing as I did not do that, it would appear that yet again, I'm attempting to WORK things out.

Not you DD, but more zealous members. And how will this be worked out anyway? After all would I be wrong in thinking that the only satisfactorily outcome from your POV would be for these members to cease making statements that you feel are hurtful? You win, they lose?

This one has come up numerous times. Why not try a civil discussion and see what might come out of it?

By all means try but so far when others have commented the threads invariably become nasty and personal.[/quote]

And for the record, freedom of speech is not freedom of abuse. Censorship has its purpose to a degree.

Who is a member abusing if he claims he feels more feminine than many of the GGs he knows or sees. How do you know this is not in fact correct? You assume that because the CD is a genetic male who is crossdressing that this could not possibly be correct and thus you feel insulted? If you do not know the person then what right have you to question his statement?

As Batty already mentioned, the issue of insult seems to stem partially at least from the inability of people to decouple femininity from genetic womanhood. Femininity is an artificial definition contrived by society, it is not derived from XX chromosomes. Femininity and masculinity are states of mind and being that anyone can access. As a CD I see no insult in another CD believing he is more feminine than many GGs. If he stated that he was more of a woman then that is different. I do not see this forum full of statements that MTF CDs saying they are more womanly than GGs but then I do skip most threads so feel free to prove me wrong in this.

One last thing, most CDs have a poorly developed feminine personality because it is kept mostly in the closet. As a result you are often dealing with the emotional development stage equivalent to a teenage girl going through puberty. It is not uncommon for teenagers to speak with "undue exuberance" due to their exciting exploration of their gender role/ sensuality etc. Maybe some slack is in order over what is probably nothing more than bragging rights? And food for thought - how insulted would you be if a teenage girl said she was more feminine than most of the women she sees on the street, compared to the offense felt when these words are spoken by a MTF CD?

[DemonicDaughter]

... Your assertion only holds true if the person knowingly and deliberately said something that he knows is hurtful to another.

Would you not then agree that words like "hideous", "grizzly" and other similar words sound purposefully hurtful? You need not put down anyone else to make the point of how feminine you are or aren't. It is when generalized statements that put down the very thing someone is emulating are made, not only is it hurtful to that group but it also gives the impression that the individual feels they are better than the group. Again, there's no need to put down a group just to make a point.

You may not bash yourself DD but others will, you need only read the comments on this thread to see there are plenty of people who will be eager to take up the cause and attack people if this idea becomes an "official" policy. That is the very real danger in your proposal.

It IS policy! The rules here, clearly state that there are suppose to be NO POSTS belittling or berating others!

I never said it was, I said CDers should be free to be CDers in this forum. Censoring ourselves so as not to offend laypeople who are not interested in getting to know us is a major imposition.

Well, I'm here. I'm obvious interested in getting to know most on here. I have numerous friends here and yet I was insulted by someone else's lack of self restraint. Fine, if you don't want to censor yourself for any new comers or those who want to learn more or what have you, but how about for those that are still here despite all this negativity we sometimes experience?

If the conversation can be kept mature and civil fine, but trying to change people's POV is usually a difficult and thankless task.

I'm not trying to change anyone's pov, I'm trying to get them to understand someone else's. Disagree or not with it. But at least acknowledge it.

After all how open are you to understanding their POV and acknowledging you are wrong?

Read my posts. If anyone ever made me see I posted incorrectly or didn't take their pov into perspective, I've apologized. I'm a big girl and can admit I'm wrong. That doesn't bother me. Hurting other people whom I don't know for no apparent or even personal reason... that bothers me. Again, I don't believe anyone or any world is perfect, but it doesn't hurt to learn a little common courtesy and respect.

We seek out friendship with others who share a similar POV and we limit or ignore contact with those who have opposite and possibly insulting POV.

You'd have to come in contact with those of a different pov to know its different than yours. And to be honest, I don't want a bunch of clones for friends. Diversity is a beautiful thing. I don't have to share a friends pov to consider them a friend.

This is the logical conclusion of what will likely happen if members are targeted as having the "wrong" POV, they will be pushed and badgered and eventually be caught in nasty verbal exchanges.

I'd like to point out, ideas like respect and courtesy for others isn't a "POV" its giving what you ask for.

Not you DD, but more zealous members.

More zealous members here are not moderators and cannot ban anyone for their POV or for arguing.

And how will this be worked out anyway? After all would I be wrong in thinking that the only satisfactorily outcome from your POV would be for these members to cease making statements that you feel are hurtful? You win, they lose?

Its obviously not just me who feels this way. Democracy does work at times you know.

You assume that because the CD is a genetic male who is crossdressing that this could not possibly be correct and thus you feel insulted?

You've obviously never read my previous posts. Again, its not a matter of who is or isn't more feminine/masculine, its learning that the threads posted here affect EVERYONE who reads them. A simply note of specifics or common courtesy does a world of good.

I do not see this forum full of statements that MTF CDs saying they are more womanly than GGs but then I do skip most threads so feel free to prove me wrong in this.

Please see threads posted by both Tamara and TxKimberly.

If you want to continue this debate, I ask that it goes to PM as I have no desire to leave this a two person debate over semantics. I've repeated myself enough with most of this.

I posted to bring attention to the subject.

Here's why:

[SIZE="4"]Kayla, my SO, wouldn't want someone talking about the gender I belong to in a derogatory way. I do not want ANYONE to view Kayla in a derogatory way because of a minority's negative pov. I believe for this to be a true community, it has to work like one.[/SIZE]

[Satrana]

It is when generalized statements that put down the very thing someone is emulating are made, not only is it hurtful to that group but it also gives the impression that the individual feels they are better than the group. Again, there's no need to put down a group just to make a point.

But how often do we see CDs saying all women are hideous etc. In order for this to be deemed a problem needing attention it has to be a common occurrence made by numerous members. I don't see this.

It IS policy! The rules here, clearly state that there are suppose to be NO POSTS belittling or berating others!

I believe the main issue is the claim of certain CDs to be more feminine than most GGs. This statement would not fall under this rule.

Fine, if you don't want to censor yourself for any new comers or those who want to learn more or what have you, but how about for those that are still here despite all this negativity we sometimes experience?

Is that not part and parcel of communication and getting along with others? Do you really expect to not to find people whose POV you find offensive in a forum with thousands of members? For the record there are plenty of negative attacks on MTF CDs too. The list of nasty words used against CDs would easily equal those listed above.

I'm not trying to change anyone's pov, I'm trying to get them to understand someone else's. Disagree or not with it. But at least acknowledge it.

Somehow I think they already know their POV will not be popular with everyone.

Hurting other people whom I don't know for no apparent or even personal reason... that bothers me. Again, I don't believe anyone or any world is perfect, but it doesn't hurt to learn a little common courtesy and respect.

If there is deliberate hurtful attack then that should be tackled by the moderators. If it is a POV then that should be allowed so long as it break the rules of commonly perceived rudeness.

You'd have to come in contact with those of a different pov to know its different than yours. And to be honest, I don't want a bunch of clones for friends. Diversity is a beautiful thing. I don't have to share a friends pov to consider them a friend.

Friendship is still based on sharing a common set of values and beliefs. People enjoy diversity when found in people who also share core values. You do not befriend those who offend you.

I'd like to point out, ideas like respect and courtesy for others isn't a "POV" its giving what you ask for.

That is in the eye of the beholder. What you find insulting may not be to others. We still end up in a police state where only sanctioned POVs are allowed. Good example of this is the use of Muhammad in the Danish cartoons. Who is right and wrong in that issue? You choose. Depending upon which side of the fence you sit, you will come to completely different conclusions.

Its obviously not just me who feels this way. Democracy does work at times you know.

So the will of the majority outweighs the rights of the minority to their POV. This is exactly what is to be feared, morality police deciding what POVs are sanctioned.

its learning that the threads posted here affect EVERYONE who reads them.

Many people out there are offended by the very idea of crossdressing. If we follow this line of thought we should close down the whole forum so that we no longer offend these people.

If you want to continue this debate, I ask that it goes to PM

No problem but I am not trying to pick a fight with you, my concern is only to draw attention to the dangers of censorship of POVs. If the issue is simple rudeness then report the thread to the moderators to take care of. What I fear is a mob mentality emerging that feels free to badger anyone with a different POV.

As a group struggling to find self acceptance, worrying what laypeople think of our postings should not take precedence over our freedom to express ourselves and that includes exposing our warts and all. If the issue is about someone bragging about being more feminine then just roll your eyes and move on. If the issue is about CDs bemoaning the declining use of dresses and skirts then that is their POV about fashion, if you disagree then roll your eyes and move on. As you said diversity is the spice of life, learn to agree to disagree. That's my POV, feel free to disagree and I hope I did not offend anyone along the way.

[Maria2222]

You never make yourself look better by running other people down. Support groups are to support, not detract.

[Bev06 GG]

Anyway, sorry to take things off course a bit - I didn't think the thought needed its own thread because I can see how that attitude affects both FtMs and GGs. Bottom line: don't judge others by how you want to see them, just as you don't want others to judge you by how they think you should be.

:

Exactly.
Abit like me anouncing on a thread that men dont dress mascline any more, and that I looked far more masculine than they did. Although that might go down really well on here.
Bev

[JenniferPaul]

So only a few people really make the disrespectful insulting post. Some pm from the moderators and for really bad offenders not letting their post appear until approved are some of the things that can be done. This forum should not be open to anyone who persistently attacks belittles or threaten anyone.

Most of the people here, like me have the time to read some threads and make a few posts. I rather be out dressed somewhere than talk about it. I would rather make a few positive posts, and do feel I need to counter any post that goes over the top. I leave that to the moderators. Not responding does not mean condoning! But for the record I hereby denounce and condemn any and all derogatory insulting and hurtful post made by any one here in the past or the future and anathema be their POV.

In Communication you can choose what to say and how to say it. You can also choose how you will interpret any message and how you will react to it. You can take a message about expression of femininity as an insult to your self worth as a woman or just a claim that some cd express femininity more that some women do. There is a variety of responses that can be made or no response at all if you choose. Just do not get upset with what others have said. Do not let it effect you.

I hope people will read these comments carefully and reflect on the points made. I also hope you were entertain by this and other post. Do you know what I mean by entertain?

[RobertaFermina]

I have read threads that decry the "plainness" or lack of "femininity" of GGs at large, and said to myself...um...I can understand that point of view, and moved on without commenting.

I haven't taken issue with the most puerile gg-baiting over this, because I felt "consider the source" "what's the point?"

Now I see what the point is. How often do we invite CDers to invite their S.O.'s and Spouses and GFs to view this site to discover what CDers and CDing is really about ? And DARN IT! they do and come to these threads where I once stared and thought "consider the source", and "what's the point?"

How can I be surprised when these women have the same thoughts and reactions ? The difference is that I decided not to be more connected and concerned about a fellow CDer, and these women may decide not to be connected and concerned about their very special CDer, or ALL CDers.

That's a big, and meaningful impact.

I didn't think about it, or do anything about it.

I think I will now, for all our sakes. At the very least, it will show a diversity of views, that, based on results that DD reported, was sorely missing.

Roberta

[Julogden]

Since I've been criticized in the past for disagreeing with what I perceive as being inappropriate stuff here in the past, I now tend to try to ignore stuff that I disagree with, probably quite a few others do the same thing here now too, so that may be why there's a lack of responses correcting people who post about females not dressing girly enough.

But I agree, a CD who criticizes females for not dressing girly enough really ought to stop and think about what they're saying. It's ridiculous, at best.

Carol

[brendaisagirl]

I am Female by Birth, I do not bash the ones that have chosen to be female, so why is so much of the FAB bashed here. If it is infact a female hate thing then take off the female attire. Why are you striving so hard to be something you hate.
Maybe you need to use your company manners.
Brenda

[JessieB]

I agree there are issues and incidences that warrant comment or argument or confrontation or censorship or whatever you want to call it (light on the censorship, please). On the other hand, the Internet has often demonstrated to me that many is the time when the most effective way to deal with a boor without becoming entangled in some exhausting imbroglio is to ... simply ignore him or her. Usually, when he or she doesn't get the attention or he was trying to provoke, he shuts up. I know when one of my threads doesn't get "traction", which is usually the case, I simply let it die a quiet death.

Again, to any GG who rejects the 90% good, or at least benign, in this forum because of 10% bad, well, maybe they're wearing their feelings on their sleeves a bit too much. And it makes me wonder how they cope with the rest of this difficult world we live in.

That said, and while I don't believe GGs should be idolized or granted any special status on this forum, they deserve every bit as much respect, consideration and love as anyone else here.

If they're nice.

[Emily Anderson]

That said, and while I don't believe GGs should be idolized or granted any special status on this forum, they deserve every bit as much respect, consideration and love as anyone else here.
If they're nice.

Hear hear!