I give up!

[Donna Michelle]

I recently attended my first group meeting of CDs and TGs. There were 2 f2m members, 8 m2f members and one GG guest who happened to be my wife. We all had a great time and the others said they hope she attends future events.

My wife sometimes dresses very feminine and other times wears jeans and sleeveless tops while working on home improvements. She actually does not dress very girly when helping the m2f crossdressers dress pretty or apply makeup. She does that so THEY can feel pretty.

Both men and women have dressy days and nondressy days. It isn't about masculinity or femininity. I feel feminine even when I dress as a man for work with only a bra and panties as women's wear. I dress like a woman, so I can look the way I feel. I feel like a woman no matter what I wear. And my wife feels like a woman no matter what she wears.

The posts that say that some m2f crossdressers make an extra effort to LOOK more feminine can be true of some people. My sister-in-law never wears makeup or dresses pretty unless she is going to a wedding or funeral. Some women dress up for work and dress down at home while others do the opposite. No one should take offense by what a few strangers say on this forum, especially since they are NOT the majority.

I can't say how many times I disagreed with people on this forum. Some people are so rude, wrong or confused that I have to avoid or leave discussions. My wife will not join THIS forum since some people really push her buttons. I have to agree with DD that this forum does turn away the GGs. They probably should have their own forum with their own moderators instead of reading our sometimes selfish posts.

[CowGurl Rachel]

To think one has to put on makeup and a silk dress to be feminine? For a CD, I can say yes, if you're out in public. At least the makeup. But, I flip my wig (pun intended) when I see GG's like Gretchen Wilson or Jennifer Nettles (I like county, so sue me) wearing tight jeans! If my wife is wearing a flannel nightgown, I'm trying to find out what she has on underneath. (and I don't mean for clothing's sake, hint-hint). So those CD'ers that cannot get past "appearances" have no argument. Being feminine is who you are regardless of dress, whether you're dacing at a club, or dfinking a long-neck watching NASCAR! (REAL women like fast cars! J/K ) Get over yourself! How about a Forum titled, "Ask a GG"? I'd a LOT of questions!!! DD could be the Mod!!



Rachel

[Tamara Croft]

How about a Forum titled, "Ask a GG"? I'd a LOT of questions!!! DD could be the Mod!!

Been there, done that, won't ever make one again... however Loved Ones is more or less the same thing

[TGMarla]

I have to agree with Rikki here. She brings up the very valid point that today's women are far more practical in their clothing choices than women of many years ago.

When CDers lament the passing of skirts and dresses as the clothing of choice for women, one should consider the source. Many CDs are obsessed with skirts, dresses, high heels, and pantyhose. They love wearing them, and likewise, love seeing them on women. It's no wonder that some of these same CDs go on about how bad it is that women "don't dress like women anymore". But times change, and these same CDs are confusing a fashion trend with overall femininity. They are really just lamenting that the fashion trends they found appealing back in the 70s and 80s are no longer valid.

Are dresses "more feminine" than pants? Yes, they are if your definitions include the fact that men wear pants as an acceptable part of their wardrobe, but have no masculine counterpart for dresses as the same acceptable form of clothing. So the rule is, "Only women wear skirts and dresses." This is one reason so many CDs wear them as their clothing of choice.

The workplace has gone to a mostly semi-casual format in clothing over the past 15 years or so. So not only have women opted to wear skirts and dresses less often, men have opted to chuck the suit and tie routine as well. Does this make men less masculine? I think not. And what's good for the goose........

I'm sorry, too, if your GG friends were offended. I think they may have taken some comments the wrong way. Likewise, some of the postings here perhaps could have been more carefully worded.

[Di]

I often feel so sorry for any new GG who joins here. not because of what shes' found out or been told and is having a hard time coming to terms with it,but with the posts she can read, about how a few on here think we don't dress right or YOU look better than us.
.

I agree ...how many times do the new GG'S JOIN...after just finding out........are trying to understand and want to be supportive of the s.o. ....they read some things that scare them to death statements that imply GGs aren't feminine or womanly enough and that the CDers are.And feel heartsick that the s.o. feels the same way. We of course try to tell them talk to their partner...just because SOME have this mind set.. If they stay and we try to get them to....they are afraid to read and or reply to the threads in certain sections.

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Wow, DD, great thread.

This is an area that I could go on and on about all year because it has been a bone of contention with me for so long.

Having seen so many threads about how GGs dress, how they "should" dress, and critical threads about GGs in general coming from people who do not have an honest clue what it means to be GG is astounding. Its not just here, its everywhere. Bulletin boards, group get togethers, events etc. Some of the CD community out there (and its not a small percentage) have that high and mighty attitude that is infuriating.

Its even moreso when the responses to someone posting that GGs don't doll up often enough the way a "real" woman should, is something along the lines of "You go girl!"

Then you add in the threads that deal with panties, bras, stilettos, little black dresses, pregnancy pads, and the kind that suggest that THIS is what being a GG is all about. Well...

My wife surfs here every so often and enjoys the majority of what is offered here. She knows that I am here and elsewhere posting and keeping tabs on people I consider friends. Every so often one of those threads pops up and I'll hear her say "What the ---- is THAT all about? Since when do 6 inch stilettos make me a woman?"

On the enjoyable side...She knows many of you through me and will ask (for example)... "Hey, how is Kittypaw, DD, or someone else doing with the situation they posted about last week?" Many times she will offer up her GG opinion on what might help in the situation.

Anyways, I think that some should think hard about what they are going to post and how it affects those around us.

*hugs*

Zarabeth

[Fab Karen]

First, for the CDs. On average, women work much harder than men, both at the office and at home. There might not be quite as much heavy lifting (CDs, you know you won't get out of that), but there's three times as much running around. And you have to do it with a baby on your arm (where applicable). So prepare to have your day off turned into just another work day!

I'm wondering why it's assumed the GG in the relationship will work much harder, when her male partner is fully capable of doing at least some of those things. And btw, on a tangent, not all women want to have children.

In the concept of going to a tranny club or gay club solely for a place to be dressed I agree with your late wife. There are those of us going to a club for dancing & fun, not just a place to be out. & we are fortunate in this town not to be limited just to those choices, there are also some mixed, open-minded clubs where we're welcome. & that doesn't preclude going out to dinner, etc.

The point I'd make is let's not trade one stereotype for another. Whether pointed at GG's, CD's, or whatever category, the more they are used the further people are from reality. Not all CD's spew this archaic talk about "women not dressing like women" etc. Not all CD's live in a fantasy world, etc.

[Chloe Renee]

I was involved in the thread that Tamara posted. I tried to write something that conveyed the message that most cd's are too uptight. I see how what was written could have been terribly misconstrued.
I agree fully with DD's Post and fully understand why her friend or any other GG/FAB wouldn't want to stay. There is a belief that the larger the post count the more important one is to the community. I disagree, many people here, myself included would have much higher counts if we stood up to the people whom we disagreed with. However, imo we don't for fear of rocking the boat. I know that I've wanted to attack people for what they written. But, have stopped because I don't wish to start a flame war. I also have been accused of being a troll on a now defunct F24 board because I disagreed with a "superior"crossdresser.

(Mods edit as needed) There are quite a few thin skinned people here that need to open their closed/delusional minds. I have seen many young members come in and leave because they have a different opinion than the status quo. Our admin has seen this need and made a sub forum. This forum(crossdressers.com) more than any other I've been to, addresses items like that and the GG's to make them feel welcome. But it is (WE) the rank and file, if you will, in general, push our-own away, by being all the things we complain about.

I respect the opinions of the Mods and Admin, I may not agree with all of them. I know the hassle that moderating is. A good forum is self moderating the members manage to keep each other in check.
The team here is good, but the membership is dropping the ball, and I too am to blame.

[Rachaelb64]

I think this is a good thread DD. I must admitt I am guilty of 'running & hiding', mind you I do turn over/off the tv if there is a program I don't like. I think I use the same attitude I use on those type of threads.

Maybe I shall stand up for now on

[27th Jennifer]

DD
I had no idea that anything like that was going on. I don't read all the posts, only the ones I find interesting if I even have the time. I'll keep my eyes peeled for these people. We should live by the saying, "if you don't have something nice to say..." There are a lot of fragile egos here, with people just trying to come to terms with their femininity, and the last thing anyone needs is someone out there bringing negative energy to our great group.
Ana

[Amy Hepker]

DD,

I am probably one of those you talked about. I will be the first to admit that I want to be with only a female and I would love to be one also or at least look like and be treated like one. I know I have said some bad things about GGs, but then I have had over 20 GGfriends in my time and of those 2 I was married too. I am with a Lady now that I truly LOVE and plan on marrying someday if she will have me.

I have had some GGfriends that have put me so far down that I never thought I would ever get up again, but I did and I have learned from the experiances all to well. I have learned to be upfront and honest with the GG you plan to spend the rest of your life with, but in doing so have been kicked aside for so called real men. Yet I have yet to see what a real man is supposed to be. The ones I have seen, that I have been told were real men, have beat women up, have been stolen from others, have hurt or destroyed other people or others lives. I am not saying that there are not perfect men out there, and I have had a few friends that I would concider real men. But, most other so called men have problems that must be dealt with too. Anger, emotional, ect, ect.

I believe we as CDers are being whole people and we want and need to be accepted for who we are. We are not trying to cut down or destroy GGs, in fact we want to be with them on the front lines arm in arm. I have said many times here that I have seen GGs that do not look the greatest, but that by no means, means any percentage of GGs. I have seen thousands, that I could never compete with, most are beautiful.

My Lady the other day said she was worried because she felt she would not look as good as I do when I am dressed. I told her We are NOT in competition to be the best female, she would win hands down, I am not, nor ever could be female. I enjoy dressing like one, and that does not mean dresses all the time, but living comfortably dressed as a female. I wear girl jeans a lot of time and very seldom wear dresses any more. I am not in competition with any Female, I just want to be who I am inside. But I also want to be with a Female to LOVE and to hold and be married too. I am not saying I would dress all the time, but most of the time I would.

I sure hope I have not stepped on anybody toes on this one, as I want to be everybodies friend here, CDs as well as GGs.

[Tamara Croft]

Amy Wannabe, what a great post, I think that is your best yet

[Celeste]

Hi DD,Why not tell your Friend every time she notes someone commenting about GG's alleged poor dressing habits,She can simply add them to her ignore list,eventually She will have weeded them all out.

[DemonicDaughter]

Hi DD,Why not tell your Friend every time she notes someone commenting about GG's alleged poor dressing habits,She can simply add them to her ignore list,eventually She will have weeded them all out.

Because we shouldn't have to. We all talk about how communication is key and that if the world was better educated on cding it would be more acceptable. Well then it holds true in the other direction! I'm posting to open the lines of communication between GGs, mtf, ftm, ts, tg, etc to help this community understand the how, when, wheres and whys things don't go as smoothly.

Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.

[waspookie6]

There are so many that have spoken up in this thread on all sides of the fence that I've come to adore for who they are - knowing who they are it inside and out (um, I suppose that could be taken both ways )

There is one thing I've noticed over and over - if a GG compliments a CD on pictures or ask how to do something with makeup or whatever, it gets little if any response. That is a lack of respect to GG's and in just about every "open" forum here including the FtM and why so many just lurk.
Speaking of - that forum is dwindling as mentioned MtF or CD's merrily drop their two cents in when the same is not accepted in the MtF/CD forums.

I used to participate in numerous discussions here but it all came down to one thing: no acceptance or acknowledgement. That pretty much will stop anyone from even trying to have a meeting of the minds let alone forge a path of social acceptance! I've also yet to find why so many posts have no real tolerance for humor either - there could be some good relationships here if people would look at the emoticons and realize it's not all serious brain surgery at work.

Hopefully DD's big mouth got us onto something greater than just our own little worlds.

[TxKimberly]

. . . And just to make a point: -

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=84925

Just read that and you tell me I'm mistaken!

I agree with you - the sentiments put forth in the thread you linked to are hardly admirable. I DO wonder if others would have condemed the thread had it remained open though.

In the interests of fairness though, and to make the point that it is grossly unfair to imply that the CD's here never come to the defense of GG's when idiotic topics like that come up, I offer this link to a thread where the response was immediate and over whelming:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...89#post1200789

[waspookie6]

Hi DD,Why not tell your Friend every time she notes someone commenting about GG's alleged poor dressing habits,She can simply add them to her ignore list,eventually She will have weeded them all out.

Because we shouldn't have to. We all talk about how communication is key and that if the world was better educated on cding it would be more acceptable. Well then it holds true in the other direction! I'm posting to open the lines of communication between GGs, mtf, ftm, ts, tg, etc to help this community understand the how, when, wheres and whys things don't go as smoothly.

Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.

This is precisely why DD even started this topic - shared acceptance not tunnel vision or skipping on past. That is the crux of the matter.

[DemonicDaughter]

I agree with you - the sentiments put forth in the thread you linked to are hardly admirable. I DO wonder if others would have condemed the thread had it remained open though.

In the interests of fairness though, and to make the point that it is grossly unfair to imply that the CD's here never come to the defense of GG's when idiotic topics like that come up, I offer this link to a thread where the response was immediate and over whelming:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...89#post1200789

Very valid point. It was never my intention to say ALL cders are like that. But after realizing that it is something that crops up often, I thought a post addressing it would bring about a more open discussion.

Again, I know so many on here do NOT condone those sort of posts but you have to also understand how those posts can be very disconcerting to a new GG member. I wanted to address that and hope to find means of working through it.

This thread is not meant to be a "us vs them" sort of thing, nor is it meant to bash anyone specific. Its meant to raise an issue and work through it like the adults we claim to be... okay, you all know what I mean by that!

[deja true]

I agree with you - the sentiments put forth in the thread you linked to are hardly admirable. I DO wonder if others would have condemed the thread had it remained open though.

In the interests of fairness though, and to make the point that it is grossly unfair to imply that the CD's here never come to the defense of GG's when idiotic topics like that come up, I offer this link to a thread where the response was immediate and over whelming:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...89#post1200789

Thanks for that reminder, Kim!

[Deidra Cowen]

I am truely sorry your friend and other GGs are offended sometimes by us Crazy CDs. I was looking thru another thread where someone posted about their GF finding their pic...one of the replies was the standard she will be jealous thing you look better than most GGs. Which is indeed rude and borish.

But CDs (me too) are just like everyone else...we have our good points and our bad qualities. Rudeness, vanity, etc. its just human nature.

I do think the mods here keep the riot down to a low roar...props to them!!!

[Jacqui]

I have used this forum to educate myself and am grateful for the opportunity to read different points of view.

When I answer posts I usually try to inflict (sic) a little humor or levity in a passion whose moods can swing from depression to euphoria.

I don't reply to as many threads as I should, don't like to get politically correct or incorrect. I personally feel that morals and values are good and that some people insist that others can be immoral or value-less as long as it is good for them or makes them feel good, so long as they do no bodily harm. And that it is ok to want and expect people to understand us, but it is not ok if they don't.

DD, for me, every GG that I observe or interact with is like Master Po and I, like Grasshopper.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGblsNXkJog

And every GG who posts on this forum is like a Gift, helping to instill a bit of reality into an un-real world.

Jacqui

[battybattybats]

Hmm.
A few folk have suggested that a CD cannot possibly be more feminine than a GG and I find that a bit concerning too. More female sure but more feminine?

I know a number of very non TG masculine women. They are great and beautiful and wonderful people. Some are straight some bi and some lesbian. Everyone is a mix of masculine and feminine traits after all. Isn't it bad to not consider the masculine traits of women valuable too?

I think part of the problem could be a sexust attitude in much of society (amongst men and women) that values only womens feminine qualities and not their masculine ones (and vice versa for men). Effectively judging people for the degree of their gender expression! Their conformity to steroetypes!

People are bombarded by sexist notions throughout their lives. Everyone will be sexist to some extent and we all should accept that and work on undoing that.

Masculine women are beautiful too! They are every bit as valid as people as feminine women. Decrying them or pretending they don't exist are both sexist aren't they?

I think a very very feminine man can indeed be more feminine than a very very masculine woman who will be more masculine than the very very feminine man. I don't see anything wrong with that and I don't suggest for one moment that being masculine invalidates the womans womanhood or femaleness nor feminine the mans manhood or maleness.

We need to respect womens masculinity too! Not insult or deride some for it nor pretend it dosn't exist either.

This whole discussion does show how much transgender brings to the surface all the many facets of the underlying sexism that runs through our society.

[DemonicDaughter]

Hmm.
A few folk have suggested that a CD cannot possibly be more feminine than a GG and I find that a bit concerning too. More female sure but more feminine?...

This isn't a debate on good traits versus bad. This isn't a discussion on if any one group is or isn't more feminine/masculine than the other.

This is about making ANYONE feel they have to live up to certain standards to feel accepted as a human being.

I shouldn't have to defend my attire any more than you. I shouldn't have to do anything more than I already do to be considered "feminine enough". It shouldn't even be a topic of discussion on any forum. But its bound to happen and its going to occur again.

The reason for this thread isn't to point fingers and say "you did/didn't do/say this!" The point is to allow the readers here to think about jokes, statements, threads, posts that ridicule an entire group and either stand up to keep it to a minimal or think before posting such things themselves.

I personally don't care if ANYONE on this forum is more or less masculine/feminine than I am. But I'm not going to allow anyone to openly mock me and the group I'm classified under because THEY want to feel more anything! And I'm certainly not going to allow those who DON'T feel that way be turned away because of it!

THE POINT OF THIS THREAD IS TO LET CDERS AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT THEM KNOW HOW CRUCIAL SOME OF THESE TYPES OF THREADS ARE!

I love my SO and I would fight to the death to keep her from pain. I would do so for any of my friends as well. So I find its my OBLIGATION to defend those I care about. I care about so many on this forum and in this community that when I was told how upset someone was over the dumb things people write, I was hurt for them! And defend as I may, it means little if coming from the non-offensive party! This is why I posted, this is why I wanted to address it. Because like ALL relationships communication is the key. I wanted to communicate an idea I didn't know if any of the other CDers were aware of.

*sigh* and I'm not sure I made the point clear....

[Audrey34]

Wow. After reading all of the posts on this thread I'm just kind of numb. I usually don't jump into controversial topics like this, but maybe it's time I speak up a little more. I'll certainly try to in the future. Speaking for myself, at my Tri-Ess chapter we have 2 GG's who always give me compliments and my response has always been one of absolute delight. These ladies are my friends and I value their opinions very much.
And it's not just certain cd's that wish GG's would dress up more. Many men that I work with have openly expressed dissatisfaction with the way women dress. My response to them has always been: "Well, how would you like it if they told you you had to wear a suit and tie 7 days a week? 10 hours a day, in all kinds of weather?" They get kind of quiet then. Just my observation, that's all. To me, a lady can be very sexy in jeans and sneakers as well as a skirt and heels.
-Audrey

[Deanna]

Would you like me to post all the deleted threads to prove you wrong? One thread does not count for all the ones that have been deleted. One thread doesn't count for the abuse in PM's for stating an opinion. I have personally been called some nasty names on this forum for saying how I feel, so please, don't tell me I'm mistaken, I've been putting up with this for 4 years, the majority don't see the half of it, it's pulled down before it gets nasty.

And just to make a point: -

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=84925

Just read that and you tell me I'm mistaken!

GEEZE LOUISE!!! There are billions of people in this world. Wouldn't it be a shame if everyone was "perfect"? It's just too bad that people cannot look past the outside and see the inner beauty of humanity.

(In a perfect world )