Can we get a consensus of what passing is?

[CharleneT]

I picked #5 because it encompasses what I think. Fooling people about my gender? I just do not expect it - nor directly desire it. I want to be happy in what I do and hope that others accept me as a person. If they think that I am actually a woman, that is just icing on the cake. I do LOVE cake by the way....

Charlene

[Fab Karen]

When your car moves ahead of the car next to you, you are passing.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

There is not of us gurls who has gotten all dress up put on a wig did our make-up took a look in the mirror and ask, do I pass?

We did not ask our self am I comfortable will I be accepted can I blend in or will people think this is my birth sex, no! the first thing we ask is can I pass.

As time pass we got comfortable with our cross dressing we begin to accept
who we are and what are true sex is and the confidence in all of our self just help us to blend in.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Jonianne]

TBH, this is the ONLY place where I've ever come across the suggestion that it's anything else, but the poll results are now quite clear and do explain much of the confusion/irritation in some past threads.. TBH, particularly reading some of the comments here, it feels as if people are sometimes unconsciously redrawing the definition

Who's definition Nicki? Yours or the majority?

because they don't think they can meet it? .......But with 170 votes now, it's perfectly clear that almost half of us define 'passing' as not being noticed (although in their comments, they often more confused); only half that number think it's being believed to have been born the opposite sex to what we were.
(Note I'm using the definition of sex=physical characteristics, NOT=gender.)

I guess my problem with this "passing" thing is it's all about passing judjment. And that's subjective anyway. What is the "passing" grade? Is it 100% to where no one can possibly tell that you are not your birth sex? or is it only 90% of those that see you or is it 70% or even 60% (D-)?

What if you get read by one person, does that mean you are not passible? The possibilities are endless. Its a judgement call at best.

I just don't like the idea of passing judgement. I went through years of self judgement on just being a crossdresser. It took years for me to find a good level of self acceptance in that area alone. It's like, if we don't set the defination as #1, then in a sense we are "not good enough" or there is a problem with us because we don"t pass.

Females have a serious problem in their lives because of the media telling them they are not good enough because they don't look like some movie star or singer. Let's not add that to our problem too!

Well that is just my worth.

Your unpassable sister,

Love,

Joni

[Nicki B]

I guess my problem with this "passing" thing is it's all about passing judjment. And that's subjective anyway. What is the "passing" grade? Is it 100% to where no one can possibly tell that you are not your birth sex? or is it only 90% of those that see you or is it 70% or even 60% (D-)?

What if you get read by one person, does that mean you are not passible? The possibilities are endless. Its a judgement call at best.

I just don't like the idea of passing judgement. I went through years of self judgement on just being a crossdresser. It took years for me to find a good level of self acceptance in that area alone. It's like, if we don't set the defination as #1, then in a sense we are "not good enough" or there is a problem with us because we don"t pass.

Joni, please look back at this thread to perhaps understand more my own point of view?

But don't you also think, from your comments above, that you are defining 'passing' as not being read?



I just don't think we can go on to talk about it's importance OR NOT, if we're not ALL clear what meanings we're using - which is simply why I started this thread. Telling someone they don't need to obssess about passing doesn't really make sense, if they define it as accepting themselves?

[girl_in_pantyhose]

this is a good poll!

[renee k]

Hi All,

I voted for number five. I'm comfortable being Renee, who I am. That translates to being at ease, comfortable in normal everyday life. So to me this a progression from just blending in. You can blend in by the way you dress, and yet not have any interaction with anyone else. Which is how many of us act when we first go out into the everyday world. I remember when I first started shopping as Renee, I was petrified to speak to a sales associate. Now it's just a normal part of being who I am. And to the people that I interact with in public. I want them to accept me as the middle aged woman they see. I get read now and then but so what. It all boils down to how treat others. If you treat them with respect and courtesy, you'll get the same in return. Many have said attitude is ninety percent of passing, and I whole heartedly agree. If your comfortable with yourself as the person your presenting you'll have no trouble getting around in this world.

Huggs, Renee

[Michelle Hart]

[SIZE=2]Hmm....[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Honestly I don't think I've ever passed. Maybe I should have tried to, but I was to focused on being totaly believable first.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]At this point I work on not just what people see but what they also percieve. No matter how fabulous you look or frumpy you can still be percieved as something else.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Bev really summed it up quite well...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]

someone once thought I was a boy and had to take my word for it that i was not, and a female friend of mine admits that she looks like a fella and even sounds like one

When people see you do the BELIEVE your male or female???

Every thing we do sends concious and more often than not subconcious signals to others about us. What you have on is a very small fraction of the total image that is veiwed when sombody look's at you.

So For me I just make sure I'm always believable.......

[/SIZE][SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]

[Jonianne]

Hi Nicki,

Thank you for directing me to your previous thread.

And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD... So unnecessary, and just as destructive as genetic women's obsession with body image; both to us as individuals, and to our whole community...

I certainly had you 180 Degrees from your intention of the poll. This topic certainly has made quite a lively discussion in the past. Your perfered defination in the poll as "Not being taken as your birth sex" does seem to go along with someone who could obsess about it. I believe thats why most went with #2. Most try to look the best they can, but are happy to be able to blend.

I believe your original point in the previous thread is that if the ultimate goal is to pass, then all that does is keep the status quo with the non-CD population in general. If they recognize us as being crossdressers and see us as average ordinary good people then they may have a better attitude toward us.

My question then is wouldn't #4 or #5 (accepted) be the best desired goal for us, if we want to give a positive image? Or is your point that most would not be as likely to obsess if they defined passing as #1 which is not practicly obtainable for most of us. But if most define passing as #2 which is easier obtainable to many, then more people are likely to obsess about it? Or am I reading too much into it?

[Violetgray]

I think that many here are confused. The poll asks what passing IS, not what's preferable to passing. Being accepted by others means that they've judged you, and decided that you're o.k. even if you are a tranny. Passing means that they don't have to make that judgement at all. If someone knows that you're a male yet excepts you as a female that's great, but its not the same as passing and you will on some level be regarded as different, even if they don't think that difference is a bad thing.

[Jonianne]

I think that many here are confused. The poll asks what passing IS, not what's preferable to passing.

Hi Violet,

I would imagine most people will probably agree on #1 technically, using their "Dr. Spock" logic, however most will vote with the influence of their heart, giving a totaly different response.

I voted for #3 (comfortable w/ or w/o others acceptance), not because I pass under those conditions, but because that is where I emotionaly want to be, when I go out.

[AmandaM]

I "have to" be taken as a woman.

[CharleneT]

I think that many here are confused. The poll asks what passing IS, not what's preferable to passing. Being accepted by others means that they've judged you, and decided that you're o.k. even if you are a tranny. Passing means that they don't have to make that judgement at all. If someone knows that you're a male yet excepts you as a female that's great, but its not the same as passing and you will on some level be regarded as different, even if they don't think that difference is a bad thing.

Violet, I believe that the definition of passing can include situations where they know you are a male, but they *accept* you as a female. Otherwise, we should probably have two terms. That may be a good idea! I understand your point, and I think most people use the term as meaning that people around them do not know they are male. If you read the many posts on the subject though, lots of girls here are using a wider definition. This post/poll has been a great discussion !

C.

[Nicki B]

Looks like I didn't get the phrasing of the question right, then - I guess it might be worth waiting a little while and then trying again..

Violet, I believe that the definition of passing can include situations where they know you are a male, but they *accept* you as a female. Otherwise, we should probably have two terms. That may be a good idea! I understand your point, and I think most people use the term as meaning that people around them do not know they are male. If you read the many posts on the subject though, lots of girls here are using a wider definition.

Charlene, I think you're talking about 'acceptance' as opposed to 'passing' (or at least my definition of passing). To me the former is far more preferable and more honest, but IMHO you can't do them both at the same time?

(That's not to say for those who consider themselves TS that acceptance in their case isn't just being seen as a woman; or man, for the FTMs - who seem to have not realised this thread was also intended for them?)

[Empress Lainie]

[SIZE=4]I was out with my tgirl gf and my gg exgf. I was dancing with several guys, and one of them asked my tgirl gf if the gg was a real girl. My gender wasn't even in question, but I think he read my tgf. That exgf wonders why I am the one who gets the compliments when she is with us. And I went braless that night in my tanktop with my perky smaller boobs, not my 44D's and bra.[/SIZE]

[Nicki B]

[SIZE=4]My gender wasn't even in question, but I think he read my tgf. [/SIZE]

So, Lainie, which did you vote for?

[Empress Lainie]

So, Lainie, which did you vote for?

not being taken as your birth sex

[marie354]

To me it doesn't really matter if I pass as a girl or not, just being accepted for who I am is all I ask.

I may look good to some, but not to all.
I may get respect from some, but not all.
Some say one thing and mean another, others say nothing.
Some say what they believe to be true, others do not.

It's a big world out there and everyone is entitled to their view.

I do know one thing... I'm enjoying every minute of it. (Finally.)

[Jamie001]

Passing is something that we shouldn't worry about. We just need to be confortable in our own skin and that is all that there should be to it. We need to accept ourselves first and get the heck out of the closet and then other folks will accept us. If we keep acting like we are dong something wrong, we will never make progress and never be accepted.