Actually I think you have this backwards.Originally Posted by Satrana
Most people who hate gays hate them because they dont fit into gender role expectations. They think that a guy who likes other guys must be like a girl etc.
That means all homophobia is a form of transphobia and that rather than hating us cause they think we are gay, instead they hate gays cause they think they are like us!!!!
I think the point about women being more tolerant, unless it's their BF or Husband is not the whole story, I think the problem a lot of them have is not the cross dressing but the deceite of their partner in not telling them in the first place, So when they do find out they may find it dificult to except and there is a loss of trust.
Katie I totally agree with you. A lot of cders just can't seem to accept it isn't the cding that the wife /gf has the issue with but the lies and feeling as though their partner could not trust them enough to tell them.
Sandra
Administrator
I always used to rib you about your legs can't anymore. R.I.P Sexy Legs
R.I.P Rianna
Unable to tell who hates the cd:s more I represent some thoughts about the reasons for that.
Men tend to regard us as betrayers of macho brothers. We also may be regarded as pathetic and ridiculous losers in the ever lasting competition among macho men. On the other hand they want to keep their affinity to feminine things “clean”, because the issue is in fact quite delicate for them – and maybe they are worried that especially after heavy drinking they may not hit the right target….
Homophobia and -hatred among these men have similar sources and many times all cd:s are regarded as gays. In this respect education may get some results, but not among the majority of rednecks, who don’t want to hear the facts that might make them to change their attitudes.
The women hate us for several different reasons. One type is a basic fear for anything “odd”: “Perhaps that weirdo is coming to rape me….” The others may think that the men should be “real men”, and we somehow mess this clarity. The third source of hatred is the fear that a cd can be even more feminine than the women themselves. Also the hatred among the ultra feminists may be related to that, although it is articulated in feministic jargon.
If the so of cd finds out the issue after five years marriage, I wouldn’t blame only her, if she gets mad about it… Fortunately there are quite many women that can be very supportive, warm and friendly. The other men outside the gay and trans-world very seldom are.
The third group of people that seems to hate cd:s is at least here in Finland a quite small but very noisy group of transsexuals (only few of all ts:s even here!!). Their main premise is that because not every ts is passable at least at first, the cd:s (which are all unpassable according this liturgy) disturbs their lives and image by showing up publicly. They seem to “know” that crossdressing is a mere hobby, cd:s are only weird and ridiculous blokes in dresses without a slightest idea of what it is to be a woman, there is nothing in common with cd:s and ts:s and so on. That attitude is in some odd way related to feministic (sometimes also militant man-hater lesbian) slogans and makes me very sad every now and then.
Last edited by anouk; 10-27-2008 at 10:57 AM.
As there are men
I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me
Well, I didn't say all women think we're weirdos and not all women hates us because we could be more feminine than they. I just tried to find the ways the hatred could be generated.
And I've met both ways of thinking here in the North. May be we are too much an isolated monoculture that has not tolerated things different from every day life phenomenons. And may be it's lack of education, again.
Ignorance breeds fear and transgender phobia among both women and men and especially men. Over my 28+ years in being out in public I have seen that the level of understanding and acceptance has improved. My wife and I do presentations to groups each year especially students studying to be therapists. We find that even among these graduate students many equate a transgender person as being gay.
I love being "gender gifted"! www.pmpub.com
I find the younger girls tend to be more accepting and are even curious about the dressing. I've gotten into discussions with younger SAs about it. One even said "good for you" when I told her the pantyhose were for me. In a lingerie dept. one time I was told they could easily get something I like in my size by a younger( that's thirty for me) SA.
The older SA women(>60) are not so accepting but tolerate. The men, mostly in shoes, seem as though they could care less.
At the bars and nightclubs real women come up and talk, act normal, give advice and treat me as one of them. It is the men who are acting like homophobes and twitter when they make me on the street.
Charlie
Sure, my point wasnt that there arent men that hate as there obviously are or that there are more women that hate than men or that the women who hate us hate us more than the men who hate us.As there are men
I just pointed out that so far men are the ones more likely to murder us while women are the ones more likely to write a book or nominated-for-an-award newspaper columns or make a movie or create a website designed to express hatred for us and to spread hatred for us which might then encourage men to murder us or either to discriminate against us getting jobs, essential services or be accepted in society but there are some of each that do hate us.
My point is that yes, there are women that hate us. There are women who beat their children for being transgender http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2008/10/...battle_24.html and i'm sure there are women who rape and/or murder transgender people too as women do still commit acts of rape and murder and in increasing numbers!
There are even Transgender people who hate other transgender people (such as some of the extremists amongst the Harry Benjamin Syndrome advocates) and even those who rape other transgender people http://takingsteps.blogspot.com/2008...r-warning.html
And every month there are more murdered transgender people, mostly by men.
Hatred is exclusive to nobody.
No group is free of hatred. No group is 100% accepting.
But there are differences between these groups currently.
Most importantly we can fight hatred effectively by following the paths of those who have fought other hatreds effectively before us.
I agree with what a lot of others say, but, I've noticed men seem to dislike CD'ing more than women. The majority of women I've come out to have been accepting, I hope my fiance will be in that list soon, but from what they've said about their guys, and what I know about my guy friends, they would freak out if they knew about me. I know several of the guys I know wouldn't want anything to do with me if I were to become a woman. But that's just my opinion on that.
Last edited by Andrea85; 10-27-2008 at 08:53 PM. Reason: Can't spell...tooooo sleeeppppyyyyyyyyy
IMHO, men tend to feel threatened by us. They view us as traitors to our masculine gender, and the implication is that if we represent a loss of masculinity then perhaps it might happen to them, too. They're terrified of somehow losing their maleness (though how that might happen is still a mystery), and so they project that fear onto any man who expresses femininity.
Women, at least in my experience, find us much less threatening and are more open to the possibilities that we represent.
I'm speaking in generalities here, of course. Not all men feel threatened by us and not all women are accepting. But by and large, it's true that men and women respond in different ways. We have a lot of work to do before transpeople are widely accepted throughout society--but I believe in my heart that the day will come.
Because that's when the line's crossed, isn't it - when we become potentially a threat (to the relationship)?
If we're not a partner, then it's very easy to just include us in 'the tribe' AND that happens IME very often.
True - but how much influence do these women have on the general population? Not a lot.. Can you point to any men likely to beat up transfolk, who might read such literature?
My case rests.Even Germiane Greer has said such things.
Yeah - but lets see if she actually gets one, after all the adverse fuss has been made?the UK organisation Stonewall has even nominated one for an award!
Last edited by Nicki B; 10-27-2008 at 08:57 PM.
Nicki
[SIZE="1"]Moi?[/SIZE]
I think that women are more tolerant of cd'ing than men are. I would not fear of getting beat up by a group of dissaproving women but I would fear of being in danger around a group of men who did not approve of what they were looking at.
Yes you are quite correct. A femme gay is many times more offensive to homophobes than a gay who appears to be straight.
So lay-people hate us because they think we are gay but unknowingly what they are really reacting to is their distaste for a man demeaning himself by looking/acting feminine.
Which explains why many gays are not enamored with CDs...we drag them down!
Right On there. I fully agree with this!
I think Deborah Jane is probably right as it is an individuals tolerance level. I do think that women are in general more tolerant being they typically are more emotion based than men. Aren't we lucky to be more loving and understanding. Keli Hugs
I agree entirely. Combine that with good-old fashioned sexism, and you'll also get a good picture of why femmy gays and MtF transgenders get so much abuse.
It's easy to find someone who'll agree that women and men are equally capable. It's not so easy to find someone who'll say that femininity is just as acceptable as masculinity, even among women! There's something about seeing a man sincerely "choosing" to be feminine that strikes most people at their cores.
Some people have built their lives playing this game of trying to be "real" men and women. They're used to people who play the game badly. They aren't so used to those of us who refuse to play at all.
Wow!
The rest of the thread is superfluous. There is the definition.
But how much abuse do we actually get, in reality? Nothing like what many here often seem to assume..
Many of them really don't see us as 'men'. They may well know we weren't born female, but they can see our femininity and do react to it, on an instinctive level?There's something about seeing a man sincerely "choosing" to be feminine that strikes most people at their cores.
Nicki
[SIZE="1"]Moi?[/SIZE]
Hmm lets see.... just the stats I recall well...
Higher risk of being murdered than any other group, check.
Rape rates, 1 in 3 women, 1 in 7 men, 1 in 2 openly transgender, check.
Unemployment rate, extremely high amongst the out, legal to be discriminated against in employment in many places. check
Homelessness, 1 in 1000 - 1 in 6000 (estimates vary) of the population are TS, 1 in 100 to 1 in 20 are estimated to be CDs and about 1 in 10 homeless people (some stats rise to 1 in 6!) are transgender. Legal in many places to discriminate against TG people in housing. check.
Missrepresentation in the media? With the automatic presumption that TG murder victims are sex workers, with TS people referred to by their birth anatomy constantly etc and generally blamed for their own deaths thats another check.
Higher rate of bullying in school? check
Systemic discrimination in health, education, ID and other services. Check.
Not being covered by antidiscrimination and antivillification legislation in many places. check
Court cases where obvious injustices are let pass. Punishments for murderers, assaulters and rapists of TG people are often much lower than for cis folk and with ridiculous arguments allowed to ignore evidence (Examples include assumptions that dead/dying TG folk can manage to hide their own bodies, that they can be shot in cars from point blank range while coming on to someone when forensic evidence says they were shot from a short distance while running away and lots of other blatently obvious misscarriages of justice). check.
Most people on this forum are closeted, white, working and middle classes (the homeless often don't have net access) and so suffer dissproportionately less than the rest of the community. But where disadvantage and discrimination intersect there is magnified discrimination.
Thats why most of the transgender people murdered this year are not white. It's more than racism. It's not Race discrimination + Transgender discrimination, it's Race discrimination X Transgender discrimination.
Even if our media exaggerates violence making us believe there is more going on that actually is, abuse is more than just direct physical/verbal assaults.
Simply knowing that someone else despises me for what I am and thinks of me as being less than human wounds me. Knowing others think I am a child molester and believes I take part in depraved sexual acts wounds me.
Knowing people smile at me when I am in front of them and then openly mock me when they pass behind wounds me.
I think back to that famous line from The Elephant Man;
"I am not an animal! I am a human being!"
Psychological abuse can be every bit as devastating. Hate is a terrifying prospect to confront even if the hate is not acted upon. I feel scared knowing it exists and is aimed at me.
This response says alot about how the overall society treats people who ask questions and refuse to conform in totality to the requirements expected of them.........a man must be macho.........a woman must be femme..........a tranny must like men............a CD is definitely a suppressed homosexual.......
yes i think most of the people who have serious distastes for CDs are usually those that have been rigidly oriented to expect black and white and no grey areas, a grey area in anything can cos them to loose their balance and they might not know how to react.
Most people expressed haterate for Cds partly cos they dont know how to react IMO.
Thoughts like "what kind of reaction would people expect me show towards CDs for me be seen as normal" always cross peoples minds not only when they meet CDs but also when they meet people different from them.
I think threads like this demonstrate more the fear WE can generate in ourselves to excuse hiding..
Batty, of course bad things happen - but not just to trans people. And you simply can't use stats like 1 in 2 open TG v 1 in 3 women when the overall numbers you're talking about is massively smaller - we're talking about an actual number which is relatively tiny, so any such comparison is decidedly unfair?
If all we do is terrify ourselves, what/who does it serve? Look around at what's said over and over again by the very many people on this forum who regularly interact with normal society - the problem is hugely in our own heads.
You don't see them starting threads about 'how I was beaten up today'? Absolutely the reverse?
Most of the time, we're surely actually demonstrating more about our OWN feelings and expectations.
Nicki
[SIZE="1"]Moi?[/SIZE]
Wow what a killer response and EXACTLY what I was thinking.
I would have to admit though, that out of all the people I have shared with, the only person to ever react badly was a young woman (earl 30's).
Last edited by TxKimberly; 11-02-2008 at 09:03 AM.
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