A huge problem I have

[Poltergeist]

I would love some advice or opinions, and I don't actually care if you're ftm or mtf if you have something to say, but since I'm ftm, I thought I'd post it here.

Probably my biggest problem with being transgendered is something that can't be fixed - it doesn't matter if I have surgery or not. And that's dating!

First, I tried to be a woman, but didn't do it very well, and often got comments from other people about "not being feminine enough" as being the reason why no one was interested.

Now, I'm pre-op, and living as a man... and now woman are hitting on me, which I guess means I can't be completely unattractive. The problem is, I like guys, and they like me even less than they did before.

Some day, if I get my surgery, I'll be a guy with no penis... and I've already been told by several guys (who liked guys too) that no man is ever going to want to date a guy without one. It was never said to be rude, but because these guys felt that I'd be happier trying to be a straight woman. But I've already tried that...

So... I feel like whatever I do or don't do, I'll have to accept being permanently single - as I have been for all my 31 years. I haven't even lost my virginity yet

I try to tell myself that I have to accept that and stop hoping to meet someone... but I really hate being single, so it just can't do that

I don't think being Danish helps either, by the way... I mean, there's no such thing as dating sites here or anything like that for someone like me.

I can join an international one and hope someone won't care about the distance (actually, I have tried that), but why would anyone want to talk to me when they have other choices much closer to them?

I go out, so it's not that I only know how to use my computer, and I go places where there's other transgendered people... but only get hit on by lesbian woman

It really makes me depressed, even suicidal sometimes.

I'm sure I can't be the only person struggling with something like this... so if you are and you've found a way to deal with it... what do you do? The few transmen I know in "real life" are all straight, and doesn't seem to have that much trouble finding girlfriends... so they can't really give me any advice, they always ask me if I'm sure I don't like girls

[DanielMacBride]

Hi Poltergeist, I hear ya on the dating issue....it's not just a problem if you like men, believe me! I have come up against the issue of not having the correct equipment from both genders - from the straight women, it's always they don't want to date me because I am pre-op and still have the girl bits and they want boy bits; from the lesbian women it's that I present as too masculine for their liking (and I have also been told by some lesbians that I am just a lesbian in denial and should go back to being female!); from straight men it's either that I ID as male so they are not interested, or they are only interested in the fact that I still have a female body (and then they totally ignore the fact that I am male, and treat me as a girl); from the gay men it's usually that I don't have the required male equipment and that I still have a female body so they are not interested.

And even from the people who were willing to date me, when it comes down to being intimate, they inevitably get the whole "deer in headlights" thing happening when they are confronted with the reality that my genitals don't match the rest of my gender presentation, and that I still have unwanted female objects on my chest. This makes it incredibly hard for them to get past the whole dissonance thing and treat me as a male, and they will often freeze up and just go "I can't do this". Sadly, I have also had this reaction from MtFs, which kinda surprised me because if anyone understands, I figured a transwoman would because she has the exact same issue only with the opposite bits in question.

Unfortunately I can't really offer you any advice on what to do except to say don't give up, there are (apparently) people out there who accept us for who we are and have no problem with the lack of male equipment (I haven't found one personally, but I have FtM friends who have solid relationships so it's obviously not an issue for their partners).

I really feel for you on the issue of there not being any appropriate dating sites in Denmark, I know there are other ways to meet people but sometimes a dating site is a useful thing! I understand the reluctance to join international dating sites, I can say from experience that a distance relationship is very difficult to maintain and you can never really be sure what you are getting if you have never met the person in the flesh. This is not to say they don't ever work, but just that there are a lot of extra factors to consider and they are more difficult than a regular relationship.

Like you I go out (although at the moment, hardly ever, I used to go out every week) and to places where there are other trans people, but in my case the only ones who are interested are the gay guys who are labelled as "trannychasers" because they only want the novelty of having sex with someone who is trans, and are not interested in anything else

Most of the places I go to, I know almost everyone who goes there, and a lot of them are already in a relationship. Those who are still single, are either all too young for my taste (they seem to be all under 25) or heavily into drugs (also not to my taste), or just plain not interested in a transman (they will talk to me, but as soon as they hear that I am a transman they kinda go "oh, thats....oh look, there's my friend, I have to go say hi" and they make a beeline for the nearest person they know).

So yeah, I know how you feel....I don't know how to solve it, but if you find out, please share, because it IS depressing and the constant rejection is tiring and not good for the self esteem. I keep hoping that I will get lucky and find someone like my FtM friends who have partners have, but so far no such luck for me. Maybe when I am further into my transition I will have more luck, who knows?

Oh btw there are quite a few guys on this site who are not straight - maybe one of them has some ideas?

[ZenFrost]

I'm single by choice and planning to remain so, but I've known more than a couple FtMs who had partners (both male and female) that were okay with it. While a lot of people are narrow-minded, there are also those who don't get hung up over that stuff. You may have luck looking for a bisexual partner. I'm probably lousy for advice because I'm not interested in people, but I think you shouldn't give up hope because I've seen relationships involving a transperson work.

Is there a way for you to put a personal ad in a newspaper? If so you could try M seeking M, but also mention that you're trans. I've seen that work for people before.

[Felix]

Hi and I have to say don't give up its not a lost cause there are people out there who are extremely fluid in their approach to the whole gender and sexuality thing and who can adapt well and can see beyond the body you have to the body you are wanting and will treat you with respect in a relationship in terms of this. I will not expand here as it is a public forum!!!!

I do feel for you because there are probably few people like this in my home Town infact I know there aren't so I like Zen may have to remain single unless I am lucky enough to find someone who is as fluid and versitile as myself!! Then again they will have to fall out the sky onto my lap coz don't think there are any here abouts LOL Hope things work out for ya Hun coz I really empathize here xx Felix

[Kristopher]

Okay, its funny because I thought the same thing since July. I am a pre-op trans guy that likes woman. Not man enough for straight girls but not woman enough for lesbians. Being in a community that I have lived as an out lesbian made it no different. Thats when I met my girlfriend now. She considers herself to be straight and sees me as a guy. She is sweet sensitive and at first it was a little awkward in bed but now she is great. I guess my advice is to find someone who loves you for you and is willing to make things work and accept ALL of you. One thing I have learned is they have to accept all over you at face value and are okay with things changing in. Good luck to you and hopefuly you find a guy who is willing to be with you. Don't give up.

[Felix]

Couln't agree more Kristopher its about loving the person the whole person and acceptance of that person for who they are xx Felix

[sabo10]

I have a partner and I met him through... playing Dungeons and Dragons! Were I in your situation again, I would build up a group of friends based on similar interests. Join some local clubs and make friends, then see if you're interested. It's a cliche that the more you look, the less likely you are to find someone, but unfortunately it's true.

Good luck and don't give up!

KP.

[Felix]

Hi Sabo and have to agree with you coz the minute ya stop looking thats when the whole thing usually falls into place xx Felix

[Nicole Erin]

Wow, well, a GM MTF CD point of view here -

So part of the problem is anatomy. Or so you have been told.
One thing about that - Gay men or heck, people in general, have different sexual tastes. You have heard of the whole "top" and "bottom" thing.
Some gay men may not want to "take" it at all and would rather "give".

As far as the non-sexual part of the relationship, you look like a handsome, presentable man so gay men should be able to see that. If I were into men, I would snag you up pretty quick.

Relationships aren't all about sex.
It is hard to predict how a relationship will turn out but the trick is getting your foot in the door.

But yeah you have got to get out there and keep at it. Nothing wrong with the3 clubs or bars, some people got here to meet...

[Punkster]

I find if you're confident about yourself that will attract people into your life. Having said that even though I am confident with prospective partners the hardest part for me is being able to stay in the relationship. Either they cant handle the relationship or my mental health issues get in the way or both.

My best advice is learn to like yourself ( ok the bodily issues are the tricky part ), when this shows other people can see it and will come to you. Learn about who you are and what you like doing, and yes I would agree that joining clubs and getting yourself out there is very helpful.

I think we have all been there where sexuality is concerned, I like women and found that straight women are put off by the lack of a penis (and the presence of breasts even if you dont let them see) and Lesbian women think you are way too masculine.

Trust me though, even though I have had a hard time dating in the past, there are people out there that can get beyond all this and love you or want you for you.

Oh and one more thing, stop blushing about being a virgin, I think its very admirable in this generation, good on ya!

[Lisa Golightly]

Punkster talks a lot of sense... For myself, I think people began to relate to me more the more I felt relaxed about myself. It is impossible to go through the things we do without coming over to others as insular, and sometimes self-centred even though unintentional.

I personally think as you beecome more adjusted to yourself, as you identify your goals and get closer to them, then you tend to become a bit brighter. It all seems daunting at times, but things get better.

As for relationships, well there are plenty of people out there for whom love is more important than mere sex. They may be rare, but that's what makes them special when you find them.

[Valeria]

I have come up against the issue of not having the correct equipment from both genders - from the straight women, it's always they don't want to date me because I am pre-op and still have the girl bits and they want boy bits; from the lesbian women it's that I present as too masculine for their liking (and I have also been told by some lesbians that I am just a lesbian in denial and should go back to being female!); from straight men it's either that I ID as male so they are not interested, or they are only interested in the fact that I still have a female body (and then they totally ignore the fact that I am male, and treat me as a girl); from the gay men it's usually that I don't have the required male equipment and that I still have a female body so they are not interested.

I have several lesbian girlfriends that have been or are in relationships with trans guys. Now, these are all women that are normally attracted to butch women, but some of them have had multi-year relationships with their trans guy boyfriend. For those where the relationship has ended, what they've told me is that the issue had nothing to do with sex, and certainly nothing to do with their SO being too "masculine" per se. It's always been other issues. I don't want to perpetuate stereotypes, and please understand that this is not *my* conclusion (I barely knew one of the trans guys and didn't know the other), but the main complaint from two of my girlfriends had to do with anger management issues after their partner started T.

Anyway, the point is that there are lots of lesbian women (at least in some communities) who are willing to try a relationship with a trans guy. Supposedly, there are even some women who prefer it, though trans males may find that as objectifying as trans females find people who prefer them because they are trans.

Sadly, I have also had this reaction from MtFs, which kinda surprised me because if anyone understands, I figured a transwoman would because she has the exact same issue only with the opposite bits in question.

Being trans doesn't automatically make you immune to cognitive dissonance or internalized transphobia. It also doesn't automatically make you fluid sexually. I once met a couple where the female partner had transitioned, and the male partner was TG (MtF), but his partner had made it clear that if "he" transitioned, she'd leave him. The world is filled with strange people...

That having been said, I've known of numerous trans guy - trans gal pairings. I know someone in such a relationship right now, and they've been dating for over a year.

I agree with the advice to just get involved with networks of friends, and concentrate more on getting to know people than on specifically seeking a love interest, and then just be patient.

[Amiad]

You mentioned that you are Danish and have little or no support/opportunities to be found in your community or on the local net. Have you considered moving (immigrating) to a different country? Dont know what you current job or education level is but those are things you have control over.

England is not that far away and much more open and accepting (from what I have read). If your first thought is "I can't leave my family"; which would be worse on your family, moving or suicide?

To let you know I am not just speaking "off the cuff", I am an American that has lived in Germany, Brazil, Panama and I hope to move to Ecuador next year. The move will probably be the end of my crossdressing (Latin women like their men to be men, faithful if possible but always men) however, I will be happier there without crossdressing than where I am now.

I hope I have been of some help.


Amiad

[DanielMacBride]

I have several lesbian girlfriends that have been or are in relationships with trans guys. Now, these are all women that are normally attracted to butch women, but some of them have had multi-year relationships with their trans guy boyfriend. For those where the relationship has ended, what they've told me is that the issue had nothing to do with sex, and certainly nothing to do with their SO being too "masculine" per se. It's always been other issues. I don't want to perpetuate stereotypes, and please understand that this is not *my* conclusion (I barely knew one of the trans guys and didn't know the other), but the main complaint from two of my girlfriends had to do with anger management issues after their partner started T.

Ok first of all, having been involved in the lesbian community here for a significant amount of time, I have seen firsthand the way transmen are treated (and now as a transman am experiencing it myself). Here, if you are a transman, you are viewed as a "traitor" to the female sex by a lot of lesbians, and the issue IS the genitals and the male presentation for most of the lesbian girls when it comes to their choice of partner. Yes, there are some girls who are queer enough to accept a transman, but they are also ostracised by the lesbian community (which here, is very cliquey and insular). So while the male presentation may not have been an issue for the ending of the relationships you mentioned, it IS the issue for even STARTING a relationship here, if you don't present as female the lesbians here won't give you the time of day unless they know you are a cisgendered gayboy, period.

As for the "anger management issues" thing, I have yet to see that in ANY transman I personally know, for all of us that I have met, the T has actually had the opposite effect and has CALMED the anger issues that were present prior to taking it. And for me personally, I can say that it has done so in a HUGE way - before T, I had MASSIVE anger issues and was pretty much unapproachable at all, but now I am laidback and chilled enough that even my doctor of 15yrs has been stunned at the transformation and says I am a totally different person.

I think the "anger" stereotype for T comes from the use by bodybuilders (who use WAY too much and in cycles, rather than the level a normal genetic male has consistently), because in that form, using T DOES give you problems (hence the term "roid rage"), however the way T is administered for transment is TOTALLY different (and I have noted that on the leaflets in the package, it does state that pre-existing aggression/anger issues is actually a contraindication for taking T, because if you are not trans and have them - ie presumably if you are a genetic male taking T to boost your levels - it will aggravate the problem).

Anyway, the point is that there are lots of lesbian women (at least in some communities) who are willing to try a relationship with a trans guy. Supposedly, there are even some women who prefer it, though trans males may find that as objectifying as trans females find people who prefer them because they are trans.

Well, as previously stated, I have spent some time in the lesbian community and the lesbians here do NOT want anything much to do with transmen, the queer girls who would accept us are a lot harder to find because of the prevailing attitude toward them from the lesbian community being negative. And yes, a woman who wanted to be with me *because* I am trans would be a definite turnoff because it is objectifying in the extreme. Just as bad as if I said I wanted to be with a girl *because* she's a transgirl, or with a guy *because* he's a transguy. To me it doesn't matter what the gender is, I am either attracted to the *person*, or not, and their gender doesn't even come into play.

Being trans doesn't automatically make you immune to cognitive dissonance or internalized transphobia. It also doesn't automatically make you fluid sexually. I once met a couple where the female partner had transitioned, and the male partner was TG (MtF), but his partner had made it clear that if "he" transitioned, she'd leave him. The world is filled with strange people...

No, I know it doesn't make you immune to the dissonance etc - what I meant was, that I would have thought that another transperson (probably should have said that rather than specifically a transwoman) would understand the issues that I face as a transman with the dissonance/dysphoria thing and so on, because they would also have experienced it. I have also come across transwomen who are afraid to get intimate with anyone because to be intimate with a cisgendered guy is too much of a reminder of what they are trying to get away from, and being intimate with a woman is too much of a reminder of what they don't have, and a transman was too much for these particular women to understand because they couldn't understand why I wouldn't want to be a woman or why I didn't want my female bits.

And I didn't even mention fluid sexuality - that has nothing to do with gender as such, but I have met lesbians who are so desperate to hold onto their lesbian identity (notably more often in transwomen than cisgendered) that they won't even consider a transman because in their minds, if they are attracted to something other than a woman, it makes them somehow less female (and yes, this came straight from one of the girls in question when we discussed it) and they find that extremely threatening to their identity. I am well aware that being trans does not necessarily make for fluid sexuality - if anything I have to say that amongst the transwomen that I know, the sexuality is more rigid than amongst a lot of cisgendered folk, and it is all tied into their identity issues.

That having been said, I've known of numerous trans guy - trans gal pairings. I know someone in such a relationship right now, and they've been dating for over a year.

Yup, I myself have had a couple of trans girlfriends, and as you mentioned previously, the failure of the relationship had very little to do with the fact that either of us were trans, it was also nothing to do with anger issues but more to do with personality clashes and in one case the girl in question had so many incredibly intense insecurities around being trans and her identity, that it made her positively neurotic and just difficult to be around at all because I was constantly walking on eggshells. But I do know of several transgirl-transguy pairings, as well as transguy-lesbian (as I said in my previous post, there ARE people out there who will accept a transguy, but I haven't found one myself yet and most of the time the reasons I am given for people not being interested ARE related to the equipment or the fact that I am "not enough of a man" or that they can't accept that I am male).

I agree with the advice to just get involved with networks of friends, and concentrate more on getting to know people than on specifically seeking a love interest, and then just be patient.

Yeah, I know, and it is good advice - but I have been doing this for years and still single....I have had a few short relationships (under 6 months) but in the main I have been single for the last 7 years and haven't had a sex partner for almost 9 years (before that I had 2 longterm relationships lasting 9 and 4 years), and there is a limit to how much patience one man can have, you know? I have never specifically gone out to look for a love interest - only with the aim of having fun and getting out of the house, but it still hasn't worked for me. Like I said the community here is very insular and cliquey, and there are not really that many trans-friendly venues to choose from (really only 3 that I could name, and the WHOLE community pretty much go there lol so if I haven't found someone in that lot by now, its not looking too good). I also go out to other venues that are more "straight" places, so I don't limit my options to just gay or trans-friendly. And you would think that being pansexual, I would have more possibilities for a partner....but apparently not. Oh, another thing here, if you are bisexual, the lesbian community tends to really hate on bi people because the attitude is "pick a team and stick with it".

You mentioned that you are Danish and have little or no support/opportunities to be found in your community or on the local net. Have you considered moving (immigrating) to a different country? Dont know what you current job or education level is but those are things you have control over.

Amiad, there are more things to consider than just job or education level and family, and moving country costs a HELL of a lot of money (I sure as hell wouldn't be able to afford to do it). And in the meantime yes, job and education levels can be changed, but this also takes time and money and doesn't solve the original issue that Poltergeist raised. And you might be able to do without your crossdressing, but as a transman, I am offended at the comparison because it's not something we put on like clothes, its who we ARE (*sighs at having to go over this point yet AGAIN*) and we can't put it aside and forget about it. I am sure if it was a viable option Poltergeist would have considered it, but sadly, for many, it is not an option we can pursue, particularly given how much it costs to have the treatment we require to make our bodies match our minds and that a lot of our incomes are tied up in that.

Anyway enough rambling for today....*goes to make first coffee for the day, its 3:12pm and I havent even HAD one yet, that's disgusting!!!*

[Poltergeist]

Thank you for all the replies, my Internet hasn't worked well for a few days, so I haven't been able to reply until now

Honestly when I go out, sometimes I really don't feel good... I'm always the one that's left alone in a corner while the rest are either (a in couples already, or b) flirting. No matter what kind of club I'm in, my attention is always going to be unwanted, which I've learned the hard way... so I have to wait for someone to make the first move, and they never do... except for the girls who think I'm a lesbian. I used to accept when girls asked me to dance, just to have some fun, but after all the explanations and discussions I've had when the girls wanted more than just to dance, I don't do that anymore either. I usually dance on my own, even though I've been told it's pathetic And it doesn't really feel good either... to be lonely in a club full of people. I always feel like I'm somewhere I shouldn't be.

England is not that far away and much more open and accepting (from what I have read). If your first thought is "I can't leave my family"; which would be worse on your family, moving or suicide?

That's always been my dream, actually. I don't have much family left, which is actually making single life even more difficult. But all I'm qualified to do is to work at a supermarket, and that's not enough for any country to let me in. I can't afford anything less than a fulltime job, so getting an education is out of the question... I've already looked into that. But the idea in itself... I've definitely dreamt about that a lot!

[Lisa Golightly]

Awwwwwww... I just want to give you a cuddle

[sparro]

It can be frustrating and an uphill battle to date when one part of your body doesn't exactly match up with the rest.

I think as for advice, I'd say first of all, if you haven't already, to find a transpositive therapist or counsillor. Suicidal thoughts are a serious thing. Depression can be overcome and a lot of the time all someone really needs is a competent person to listen and give rational feedback. I'd go so far as to say your inability to get a date is more linked to your own discomfort with who you are then other peoples'.

Second, I think that perhaps you are looking for love in the wrong places... That being said, where are you looking? Are you going to clubs, are you persuing anyone YOU are interested in? Whether you've got a dick or not, every guy has to put themselves out there confidently in order to meet someone, whether you're looking for a one night stand or a long term relationship. Even the most attractive of people won't just expect to have potential partners ask them out. People have to try, and often people strike out. Striking out is part of life. A big part of dating is rejection though. It's illogical to expect that every time you swing you get a homerun.

I would tell you not to listen to your gay friends. They are just speaking of their own sexual tastes when they tell you things like "no guy would ever date you". It's a self fufilling prophecy; if go into a dating situation thinking you're going to fail, then you're going to fail.

Thirdly, as I said before, maybe you're looking for love in the wrong places. Instead of going to the clubs where your friend usually pick up girls/guys/whatever, maybe you should branch out a bit, search for a club that is trans friendly. Then you wouldn't have to worry about people judging you, as everyone there ...is either trans or looking for trans.

And again.. maybe clubs aren't your thing. A lot of people feel uneasy in clubs, including myself, so that wouldn't really be an ideal place to try to exude.. confidence and charm. If you're feeling alone and isolated, especially, maybe you should join a trans support group, or trans based group? Or even, just join any kind of group. Pottery to poll dancing, anything where you regularly interact with people. People will get to know you, perhaps you'll feel more comfortable in the environment.

We live in a modern world of the internet. Just typing up "Trans dating" and a whole crop of reputable looking dating websites geared towards trans people, and people looking for trans people.

When it all comes down to it, the MOST important thing is to not regard being transsexual as being diseased or a huge issue when it comes to dating. If you do that, then the people around you at clubs, anywhere in your life, will also see this exciting part of you as a huge, big bad issue. It's really not. If you present is as a small issue, something else that just makes you fun and different (in a good way), people are more likely to feel the same way about it. If it never works, at least you'll feel better for yourself.