There are a LOT of Crossdressers out there !

[sandra-leigh]

Crossdressing and intersex:

Crossdressing occurs when someone wears clothes not intended for their biological gender. If someone is XXY or XXXX then there are no clothes designed for their biological gender, and everything they wear is crossdressing.

If someone is XXY and "looks male" and dresses as male, then although everyone may think of them as "male", they are something else, neither "male" nor "female" in the standard definitions. They might not have any visible signs of their biological variation, but it is still there.


If the proceeding argument is not accepted, then it seems to me that the two possible alternative definitions of "crossdressing" would be based upon "passing" (i.e., if everyone thinks that you are a woman then wearing women's clothes would not be crossdressing), or else would be based upon genitals (which would be tough to do.)

[Kelly DeWinter]

Another thing to keep in mind when looking at these numbers. The numbers when calculated are estimating MTF. Well, what about FTM friends? The numbers then get bigger!

AllyM that is so true, We should never forget our fellow brothers. Would't it be wild if they added some questions about the transgenter community in with the Cencus report ?

[Janicejane]

It's always hard to find out how many crossdressers there are in any arena. My own take and experience of it is as follows:

I ran a social support group in Brighton for 5 years, 1998-2003

I had a hard core support group of 5 -10 members who attended regularly

My own knowledge is that at least 6 of those who attended at least once have since transistioned via GRS

2 more of those with whom I am in contact with live full time as females

According to my records over 500 people attended at least once within the 5 year period.

I believe since the majority of of my advertising for the group was done via the internet that I was only reaching around 50% of those who identified at the time that they may have been CDs or were CDs and the time was right to come out.

Only around 1 in 20 had S.O. support during this time.

Many spoke of divorce and then remarriage later in life where their partner knew of their dressing. I didn't keep records or names, I just remember the subject constantly reocurring.

My own personal belief and I reiterate that this is a personal belief is that at least 5% of the male poulation have at some time cross dressed, and that at least 1% continue to do so on a regular basis, how many of these go out dressed I wouldn't hazard a guess, but here in the UK I do see an awful lot of folk just getting on and doing their own thing. In the US depending upon state and religous pressure the numbers may vary.

My own take on the original post whilst listening to all the posts that followed since that one. I have no scientific data, but I do have my own records which I maintained. As for gay Pride when I joined a float I was the only regular CDer amongst them.

Regards
Janice

[Kelly DeWinter]

Makes me wonder if an ebb and flow are normal to these feelings

[sometimes_miss]

Makes me wonder if an ebb and flow are normal to these feelings

For some of us, yes. My desires to CD relate to how much stress is going on in the rest of my life, most importantly in regards to whether I am in a relationship or not. As it is, it's been 10 years since I had a SO. So I guess you could say that I'm stressed out pretty much all the time these days. Hence the almost daily crossdressing. In comparison, during the first years of my marriage, I didn't dress up at all.

[Raquel June]

My own personal belief and I reiterate that this is a personal belief is that at least 5% of the male poulation have at some time cross dressed, and that at least 1% continue to do so on a regular basis

As I've said many times, it's meaningless for people to even guess at figures when they're not even defining what a crossdresser is. I see so many people say 5%+, which is ridiculous. But when you state it like this -- 5% have crossdressed at some time and 1% do so regularly, I think that's at least plausible.

And again we have to look at who themselves identifies as a crossdresser. Let's compare it to the lesbian community. Many studies have reported that about 5% of the population "have at some point engaged in homosexual activity." How useful is that? I could make a random guess that maybe 50% of women have fantasized about being with another woman once in their life, 5-10% have acted on that at least once, and 1-2% exclusively engage in lesbian relationships. Isn't it ridiculous to say that 5 to 10% of the world is gay just because they did something gay once in their life? A girl who got drunk at a party in college and made out with another girl is not going to identify as a lesbian, is likely not going to be motivated to fight for gay rights, and it really not affected by gay issues at all, so it's unreasonable to count her among the gay community.

Likewise, even if you could prove that 5% of the male population has engaged in some kind of crossdressing activity at some point, those men who did not continue to do so do not identify as crossdressers. Attempting to appropriate them as part of our community just to inflate our numbers is subversive. They could care less about the plight of actual crossdressers.

[Satrana]

I see so many people say 5%+, which is ridiculous.

ridiculous? says who? Since no-one knows what the numbers are and there is no satisfactory way to find out due to the secrecy involved, using 5% is no more ridiculous than using 1%.

When Kinsey reported in 1948 that one third of American males had reported a homosexual experience, people were shocked and refused to believe it. When things happen out of sight we believe that the lack of sightings means the certain behaviors are uncommon instead of appreciating that they could be very common but just never discussed.

Hence crossdressing could easily be 10%, maybe 20%, who knows?

Isn't it ridiculous to say that 5 to 10% of the world is gay just because they did something gay once in their life?

If they did it once before then they may do it again. Or maybe they are just feeling guilty and are in denial etc. Having only a single experience of something does not in itself signify anything.

And the percentage of people being involved in a particular behavior is also dependent upon society. The more acceptable and mainstream a behavior becomes, the more people will try it. Like tobacco and alcohol, there is no rational reason to use these drugs as they damage our health but people have conveniently overlooked these issues because most people were using them. Similarly once it became acceptable for women to wear masculine clothes, pretty much all women jumped on board.

So how can you define a naturally floating point that can be blown all over the place depending upon the changing views of society?

All that can be said is crossdressing is a reasonably common behavior among men that will undoubtedly become more common as society progresses to more liberal and individualistic interpretations of gender, most likely resulting in the disappearance of the term crossdresser a few decades from now once feminine men become socially condoned and all clothing becomes unisex.

[Raquel June]

ridiculous? says who? Since no-one knows what the numbers are and there is no satisfactory way to find out due to the secrecy involved, using 5% is no more ridiculous than using 1%.

Read this thread and you'll see that the arguments in the 1-2% range are much more valid than the arguments in the 5-10% range. It's pretty obvious when you think about it rationally.

Hence crossdressing could easily be 10%, maybe 20%, who knows?

If they did it once before then they may do it again. Or maybe they are just feeling guilty and are in denial etc. Having only a single experience of something does not in itself signify anything.

You're being absurd. By that logic, having zero experiences doesn't signify anything either. For all you know 100% of the population is going to start engaging in gay sex tomorrow, so we might as well call 100% of the population gay. You can't prove otherwise!

Why stop at 20%? 100% of the world might be crossdressers! They're all totally in the closet, even to themselves! They don't even consider themselves crossdressers and they may never crossdress, but that's just because they're denying their feelings!

These are not figures that we can have any confidence in statistically. Just because something can't be disproved doesn't mean it's rational to argue about it. Quantum physics tells us that you might turn into an otter at any given time. You might as well argue about that.

Besides, where does that get us? Nowhere. Pretending people are crossdressers when they don't even identify as crossdressers isn't a good thing. If 20% of people are crossdressers then 19% of them are people I don't want to know. They're cowards who can't even privately mention it to their therapists. They're maliciously trying to underrepresent us by lying on totally anonymous surveys. If you think they should be called crossdressers, then you should be ashamed to be a crossdresser.

[Satrana]

According to my records over 500 people attended at least once within the 5 year period.

That is an interesting number Janice. There is a whole host of criteria which a CD would have to jump through before they turned up at your group such as:

Identifying oneself as a CD not gay or a fetishist
Not being in denial/trying to cure oneself
Still being in closet not wanting support
Desiring to meet with others
Unable to meet others due to unsupportive SO/parents
Being brave enough to meet others face to face
Having internet access
Successfully searching internet to find your group
Having the opportunity/means to attend

Thats just a quick list I drew up in one minute, there are more criteria all of which would chip away at the number of people you could expect to attract. I suspect that you only met around 5% of the CDs in Brighton. If so then that would indicate a total CD population of 10,000.

Now Brighton has a population of 250,000 - so 120,000 males, take out young boys and very old men and you are looking at 100,000 potential clients. That would mean CDs made up 10% of the male population. It is all speculation of course but it is indicative that the behavior is far more widespread than is commonly thought.

[Satrana]

Read this thread and you'll see that the arguments in the 1-2% range are much more valid than the arguments in the 5-10% range. It's pretty obvious when you think about it rationally.

I don't see any validity in any numbers.

How many people would have guessed 1/3 of men having a gay experience before Kinsey published his findings? You know fine well people would have quoted very low numbers. Reality and what people want to believe based upon their feelings do not intersect.

You're being absurd. By that logic, having zero experiences doesn't signify anything either.

Correct it does not signify anything. Many people want to do many things in their life but never act upon their desires.

These are not figures that we can have any confidence in statistically.

No such numbers exist hence your guess is no more statistically valid than anyone else's.

If you think they should be called crossdressers, then you should be ashamed to be a crossdresser.

I would never judge the actions of others especially when there is such widespread intolerance involved. One thing being a CD has taught me is everyone has to live their own life and take responsibility for their own decisions. It is not for me or anyone else to judge the actions of someone else. You are not in their shoes to say otherwise.

[Raquel June]

I suspect that you only met around 5% of the CDs in Brighton.
...
That would mean CDs made up 10% of the male population.

That's an enormous leap you're taking. If she met 50% of the CDs like she estimated, that makes 1% of Brighton CDs. If she met 5% like you claim, that makes 10% of the population CDs.

I would say that both your estimates are fine based on the qualifications you're giving for being a crossdresser. Let's look at what you said earlier:

Identifying oneself as a CD not gay or a fetishist
Not being in denial/trying to cure oneself
Still being in closet not wanting support
Desiring to meet with others
Unable to meet others due to unsupportive SO/parents
Being brave enough to meet others face to face
Having internet access
Successfully searching internet to find your group
Having the opportunity/means to attend

For all practical purposes, everybody in the USA and UK has access to the Internet. Whether it's at home, a library, school, friend, relative, or whatever. If you don't have Internet access the only reason is that you don't want it.

I would probably classify 25-50% of the crossdressers I've met in person as very fetishistic, and plenty that are gay (or at least bi). Being "fetishistic or gay" doesn't keep you from identifying as a crossdresser. To claim otherwise is saying that people crossdress just because they're gay, and that's silly.

The biggest thing is people being in the closet. Besides being afraid or in denial, people could simply have no desire to meet other people and get "support." I mean, if they're totally OK with their crossdressing, if it's not emotionally troubling for them, why would they go to a support group? But that discounts the very strong drive people have to belong to a group. For example, people don't all come to this forum because they have problems. People are drawn to others with similar interests. People just want to hang out with people similar to themselves.

How large of a percentage of the crossdressing community do you think has a strong desire to associate with other crossdressers? And how much of a crossdresser are you if you only did it a couple times and don't want to be called a crossdresser? It comes back to how you define it. If you think a guy who rarely crossdresses, who doesn't want to meet the kind of people who hang out on this forum, who would probably laugh at you to his friends if he saw you in public, and who certainly would never identify as a crossdresser ... if you think he's a crossdresser, then feel free to say 5% - 10% of guys are crossdressers.

I just think it's weird that I see so many people making the number as big as possible. Apparently it makes them feel good to pretend they run into tons of closetted crossdressers every day. The thought of that actually makes me sad, though. Thinking that there are tons of crossdressers out there who want zero contact with other crossdressers -- doesn't that make you feel kinda betrayed or abandoned?

No, Racquel, you're using the wrong criterion. You can't work out sociological data from 'thinking about it rationally'.

I mean thinking rationally about facts which have already been given. Even the first post of this thread has enough info in it that you have to basically call the OP a liar and the therapist a quack if you want to claim 5% - 10% of people are crossdressers.

[Satrana]

For all practical purposes, everybody in the USA and UK has access to the Internet.

Except Janice's numbers come from 1998-2003. A quick google check shows the UK numbers for access to internet was 13% in 1998 rising to 40% in 2002. Considering Brighton is not a metropolitan area but a seaside resort and retirement area, the internet penetration was probably less than the national average. So only a small minority had access during this period hence for sure large numbers of CDs were not aware of Janice's group.

And of course internet access does not tell us anything about computer usage. Many older folks were scared to use the computer at first and so much of the earlier usage was mostly the under 30s which again would exclude a significant proportion of the CD population.

Combing these 2 technical factors alone would indicate that probably only about 20% of the CDs would have had the opportunity to find Janice. And then you would have to start examining whether they had the inclination or desire to even search for a local support group. I know personally it took me years to think about looking for one myself.

I just think it's weird that I see so many people making the number as big as possible.

If that were true then we would see much larger numbers being quoted. I guess it all comes down to how you think about the behavior. If you think it is a unique condition that requires a special set of circumstances to come together then you will likely believe in a small number. If you believe crossdressing is actually a fairly normal gender expression that simply clashes with a narrow social gender definition for men, unlike for women, then there is really no reason to believe that many men are not interested in it.

Thinking that there are tons of crossdressers out there who want zero contact with other crossdressers -- doesn't that make you feel kinda betrayed or abandoned?

No it makes me sad for them and angry that in the 21st century such intolerance continues to ruin people's lives. I wonder when will people grow up and put away all this mythology about race, gender and sexual orientation to allow people to express who they really are instead of everyone having to pretend to be something else.

[Deanna2]

There are a LOT of Crossdressers out there !

You're right. The other night I was in a room full of them.

[Carly D.]

Statistically speaking that might be true.. but there are probably a lot of twisted individuals that do more than dress for sexual pleasure either by dressing up as a woman for sexual deviances such as nasty sex role playing and that lot there.. I think that the true cross dressers such as those who are stuck with feeling like it is a part of what we have to do, is probably right on those stats.. but also you have to think that there are a good number who don't know they cross dress.. such as the what constitutes cross dressing?? wearing pantyhose?? how many football players wear tights or pantyhose to stay warm?? how many police officers wear pantyhose or tights to stay warm?? is this cross dressing?? what about wearing only heels?? what about make up only?? earrings in pierced ears.. I just wonder what is cross dressing anymore.. CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHAT CROSS DRESSING IS?? sounds like Charlie Brown in peanuts christmas special "can anyone tell me what the true meaning of christmas is?"..

[sandra-leigh]

Read this thread and you'll see that the arguments in the 1-2% range are much more valid than the arguments in the 5-10% range. It's pretty obvious when you think about it rationally.

Where I live, there is a grocery store 1 mile straight in one direction, and a shopping centre with a competing grocery store 1 mile straight in the opposite direction; the two grocery stores belong to the two largest competing country-wide chains in the city; there is a third large competing chain slightly further away that has a lower market share; everything else is much smaller.

I have often shopped at the two competing grocery stores, less often at the third chain. In six years of living in the area, I have, as best I recall, seen any of my neighbours shopping in the grocery stores (that is, people I recognize as living within a few streets of me) exactly once.

"Rational" consideration of these observations leads to the conclusion that the portion of people in my neighbourhood who go grocery shopping often enough to be considered "grocery shoppers", is extremely low, less than 1%.

[Marjory]

I've seen articles that put the numbers even higher. The closets are probably crowded.

[ronnie1951]

I see there are so many of us...I just wish the internet had been around a long time ago! After 57 years I need to get out and meet some of you. It isnt much fun just staying around the house.

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

I've seen articles that put the numbers even higher. The closets are probably crowded.

Your right on that

When I first came out as Zarabeth to my fellow cast members, of the 126 counted... 18 CDers, and two TG quietly let me know they were there too. Man was I surprised.

Thats a good 16%

*hugs*

Zarabeth

[trannie T]

There are three things that we know:

1. There are a bunch of us.
2. We have not come up with a defination of constitutes a crossdresser.
3. There have been no reliable scientific surveys or research as to the actual number of crossdressers, gays, bis, lesbians or transexuals.

Most everything else is just guesswork and has little basis in fact.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Your right on that

When I first came out as Zarabeth to my fellow cast members, of the 126 counted... 18 CDers, and two TG quietly let me know they were there too. Man was I surprised.

Thats a good 16%

*hugs*

Zarabeth

Ren Fairs and Re-enactment groups are full of us. Just like if I was to ever attend a Linux/open source convention I would expect to see other transfolk.

I also want to remind everyone that even 1% is a LOT of people. Say you live in a town of around 10000 people, like I do. say half of them are men (it wouldn't be exactly half) if 1% of that 5000 were regular trans in some way that would still be a lot of people: 50. That's enough for a good size support group. I personally think that it's between 1 and 5%, being closer to the lower. Small enough that you don't see us all the time, but noticeable enough to the plus size retailer bottom lines and that muggles in retail are told about us.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[charlene_d]

I think someone on the makeup forum said if you'd like to get a good idea of the number of crossdressers out there ask a Merle Norman or Mary Kay SA. :-)
Charlene D.

[Satrana]

The interesting thing about the Sanders survey is that it was published in 1987, a time when most CDs here deeply hidden in their closets. You have to wonder how many were unable to admit to their behavior even for a survey. For me personally from age 10 when I began until 25 I was completely unable to tell a soul what I was up to, no matter how understanding or sympathetic I thought they might be. I just could not bring myself to admit the truth to anyone. And I would have been paranoid that anything I said in a survey would be traced back to me.

So you would definitely have to inflate Sander's results by a certain percentage to approximate the total CD population. I am guessing you should add 1/3 onto the total which would raise the number to 8%.

[battybattybats]

Statistically speaking that might be true.. but there are probably a lot of twisted individuals that do more than dress for sexual pleasure either by dressing up as a woman for sexual deviances such as nasty sex role playing and that lot there..

Why do you consider such people twisted and such practices deviant and nasty?

I know plenty of people who dress up for sexual reasons, who indulge in sexual role-playing. And they are amongst the nicest most trustworthy and decent people I have ever met!

Whereas the majority of sex-predators appear common, average and utterly normal. That's to be expected after all, they need to seem normal in order to get close to their prey! But it's the people who seem different that get stereotyped as bad. Why? Fear of difference is part of it but often it's because the real sex predators need to point to a scapegoat to distract everyone so they can strike.

Most rapists know thier victim. Most child molesters are close family members or friends of the victim or people in positions of authority. Sure there are rare cases of kinky or CD sex-predators but they are far less common than GG rapists and GG child molesters for example.

Now CDing for sexual purposes and sexual roleplay may well not be your cup of tea, and fair enough, but the vast majority of those people are not 'twisted' or 'nasty' and try 'normal healthy sexual variation' instead of deviant because plenty of studies have shown that.

One such study on BDSM pointing out the healthy reality as oppossed to the assumptions and negative stereotypes came out this year for example.

Nice one, Satrana! Though I think the survey method was pretty watertight.

Ah but what about the effect of magnification found in men and womens responses to questions about numbers of sexual partners? Even with good methodology men inflate the numbers and women reduce them by about the same margin!

So even when the methodology is as ideal as possible some still give an answer based around the expectations and judgement of others despite anonymity etc!

[Raquel June]

I have often shopped at the two competing grocery stores, less often at the third chain. In six years of living in the area, I have, as best I recall, seen any of my neighbours shopping in the grocery stores (that is, people I recognize as living within a few streets of me) exactly once.

That doesn't really prove anything other than that people who live near you probably have a different schedule than you, or you didn't notice them.



So, most of you think there's a huge number of crossdressers out there -- 5% of the population is f-ing immense. And most of you think all the surveys and studies are wrong because there are so many crossdressers in the closet. Let's forget about all that, then.

In the end, the only thing we can make any kind of real conclusion about is the number of out crossdressers and the number of online crossdressers. It is very easy to see that less than 1/10th of 1% of the population are out crossdressers. It is also very easy to see that less than 1/10th of 1% of the population are active in any kind of online crossdressing community.

Try to inflate it as much as you want, but you can't change the fact that 1% of the US male population is 1.5 million M2F crossdressers. Then take a long hard look at reality. Do you have any idea how many people 1.5 million is?

I've been to a lot of clubs that are totally CD accepting. I've been to a lot of large CD/TV/TG/TS meetings with people from all over the midwest, and I can easily show that well under 1/50th of 1% of the population gets to clubs and CD events.

Look at the size of this forum -- 12,000 members, which includes many non-US members along with GGs, F2Ms, admirers, and duplicate accounts. Then look at the size of other forums (all much smaller). Then look at the size of URNotAlone (14,000 M2F members, a huge number of which are non-US and/or identify as TG), and the size of the CD Yahoo/MSN groups. Most of those groups are very small and mostly TG-related. The large groups are absolutely overflowing with admirers. You can easily see that under 1/50th of 1% of the population is crossdressers who are online.

So where's that put is? A minuscule number are online crossdressers. A miniscule number are out crossdressers. If you really want to say that 5% of the male population is M2F crossdressers, you are implying that totally closetted crossdressers who are not online outnumber us by a factor of at least 250 to 1. What a sad antisocial bunch!

Maybe it's true. Maybe we are exponentially outnumbered by guys who like to wear panties now and then and don't want to talk to or see another crossdresser. I think it's a little weird that you all want to include them among us and call them crossdressers in the first place.

[sandra-leigh]

I've been to a lot of clubs that are totally CD accepting. I've been to a lot of large CD/TV/TG/TS meetings with people from all over the midwest, and I can easily show that well under 1/50th of 1% of the population gets to clubs and CD events.

That doesn't really prove anything other than that people who would go there probably have a different schedule than you, or you didn't notice them.


Either we can use our observations of our environment, or we can't use our observations of our environment.

If we can use our personal observations, then based upon my experience that I am more likely to see a cross-dresser "around" than I am to see someone I know from elsewhere, we conclude that cross-dressers are not especially rare here.

If we cannot use our personal observations to draw conclusions about the general population, then your experiences at meetings and events are not to be taken of indicative of cross-dressing level in the general population.