I take these young ladies who claim that Crossdressers are mocking women with a grain of salt. These same women likely have an issue with men in the first place.
To claim that Crossdressers are mocking women is a stretch if you ask me.
I take these young ladies who claim that Crossdressers are mocking women with a grain of salt. These same women likely have an issue with men in the first place.
To claim that Crossdressers are mocking women is a stretch if you ask me.
You do not have to be an active feminist to hold feminist viewpoints as these have become widespread and mainstream. Their reactions as you described it was misandry as Jina correctly stated.Originally Posted by michelle2b
As these women proved by labelling CDs so inaccurately. I trust you had a discussion pointing out their stereotyping of CDs and why they were wrong in assessing CD's viewpoint on femininity?Labels are great to disregard valuable input that could help society progress.....Would you like to be judged this way? It is equally wrong to label some women as feminists and then claim that their association with feminists make their viewpoints wrong
That depends on what the negative remarks were. Society has already decided racist or sexist remarks are not acceptable. Some of these women's comments were clearly sexist so what is there to think about?It is a mark of a mature adult to be humble enough when we receive negative feedback to say, "I hear what you are saying, let me think about it and see if/how I improve the situation".
I would never expect a woman or a black person to be humble and report back on how to improve the situation if they have been incorrectly stereotyped through ignorance and bigotry.
So we must change our behavior to conform to their point of view. How about just educating them to allow them to make more informed and accurate assessments? After all if we have to modify our behavior to fit in we could NEVER crossdress in the first place.It is sometimes possible that the negative feedback is coming from a wrong perspective, but it is our work to correct that perspective through our behavior and our actions.
The mature manner would be to educate them so they understood better.You are the one who is losing support from the people who would have supported you if you would have listened and reacted in a mature manner.
Standard NIMBY response. Their public response of acceptance means nothing as it is bad show for a woman to denounce any group out of hand. This is not proof that any of them were in fact open to CDing. You would have got a more accurate assessment interviewing each one in private to avoid peer pressure.These young women did not seem to object to cross-dressing per se. As I mentioned, they "don't care" that men "occasionally cross-dress". They also "need to know before getting emotionally involved" with a male who cross-dresses, which indicates that they have not shut the door to dating cross-dressing men.
No, they were objecting to men who sexualized their feminine appearance and did not conform to women's mainstream social rules. Any CD who picks a recognizable female image could be called on mockery - dressed in a housewife's apron?, a 1960s petticoat skirt? a high society woman? all forms of mockery. The horror!The women were objecting to the way cross-dressing men that the women notice are present themselves, which to the women seemed like mocking.
I am very happy to hear the viewpoints of informed, mature, experienced GGs who know what they are talking about. Deciding the CD community should alter its behavior to satisfy ignorant, immature women advances our cause in what way exactly? We already know there is widespread ignorance, your discussion group has not told us anything new.
The CD community will not get anywhere unless we stand up and assert our rights, demand equality and be accepted for what we are. No other disadvantaged group got anywhere by pandering to conformity and mainstream ignorance.
When I see threads such as this, I am reminded of the William Golding novel "Lord of the Flies".
There is an ongoing struggle in our community between individualism and conformance. In time it will sort itself out, but only if we can be respectful of each other and the community at large.
Respectful of a person's (male, female, TG or other) choice to consider an other's dress as outrageous
Respectful of a persons choice to want to conform and blend with the gender of their choice.
Respect that people come with preconceived or even prejudicial notions
We can discuss a topic, argue a point, take it or leave it, and push the commonly accepted boundaries of social acceptance. We should do all of these things. But the moment an individual shows disrespect of an others point of view, he/she loses credibility.
There is room for all of us, this path is indeed well worn. The gay and leather communities managed to figure it out. Religions don't come in only one flavor. And let's not put all genetic women in the same bucket either. No, let's not do that.
We each have our own individualism. Some of us even have our own agenda. If we want it to be respected, we must show respect. How we do that requires individual thought.
Respectfully,
Carin
I have gone on a journey in search if myself. If you find me before I return, please hold on to me until I get back.
Telling our Children
Satrana, you've said it well girl!!
Michelle,
As someone who has been in academia, and participated in "women's studies" groups, AND as someone who is involved in treatment and research on the human brain, may I offer something from Occam's razor?
There are some women out there who are just angry.
Who knows why and for what reason.
As for discussing the issue with them, that's fine, but don't expect to change their mind with the logic or reasoning of your argument. You can't talk someone out of a bad mood.
I give people like that space to be angry in. I'm not their therapist, and I don't perpetuate their anger.
Usually a little humor helps to defuse the situation too.
"How many women's studies students does it take to screw in a light bulb? That's not funny!!!!"
Chris
The issue is not about respecting an individual's choice to conform to social norms or conservative notions, the issue is about these individuals pressing their POVs onto others and condemning those who do not conform by claiming their actions damage the whole community. That is the most disrespectful and intolerant notion of all.
I find great dignity in Rosa Parks refusing to conform and give up her bus seat but see none in the notion that if only all CDs wore sensible clothing we would be welcomed with open arms. The issue is not about our fashion sense, but that fact a social taboo exists against men displaying femininity.
All disadvantaged groups have gained their rights by taking the fight head-on tackling the source of the prejudice making society sit up and take notice and subsequently redefine social norms.
The mockery charge is nothing more than a distraction which only reveals ignorance and intolerance. I trust those who believe mockery argument are drafting an instruction booklet informing the rest of us how to avoid this charge by measuring how long our skirts can be, how high our heels can be and how large our breast forms can be before we trespass over this imaginary line in the sand.
I, too, find the act of Ms Parks a courageous stand. But she did so in a manner that maintained dignity and respect. Personally, the members of the trans community I have met do not dress with the intent to mock or offend women in any way. And while I do think there is more we can do to educate women (and the public) about all facets of transgendered, we can also be more attuned to how we are being perceived and the reasons behind those perceptions. It is armed with that knowledge that we can then fight the prejudice against us. If we allow this to be a battle of our will against the will of society, we will all be losers.
Fulltime girl on the inside.
Lipstick=confidence
[SIZE=4]Holly[/SIZE]
Then how do you characterize the suffragette movement, the black civil rights movement, the gay pride movement? In each case the disadvantaged group did grind their will against society and in each case it was society that gave way after a period of initial resistance and everyone won by creating a fairer, more tolerant society.
It is not in the nature of a CD to take action and fight, partly because of our closeted existance, partly because of our desire to enhance our feminine qualities while lessening our masculine qualities. So we naturally hesitate at the very thought of taking more strident action and hope that somehow society will just learn to accept us gradually. I doubt this will happen because people who are not directly involved in a TG relationship could not care less what we are and see no reason to alter long held misconceptions.
This is precisely why we need to force the issue into the public arena if we want more widespread understanding and acceptance. If we don't act ourselves then society definitely will not act on our behalf. This is not a call to militancy but a call to finally get both feet out of the closet and organize regular public displays and parades to enable public discussion from which acceptance will eventually flow.
We need mainstream news media to cover our events, to interview us and do follow-up in depth articles on us. That requires the TG community to organize public events to trigger the news coverage. That needs the TG community to be sufficiently emboldened and self-assured to turn out in large numbers to make the difference. So our first steps as a community must be to jettison the all traces of guilt and shame and put aside the belief that niceness and conformity alone will win over the hearts of the public. It won't!
I totally understand this perspective that some women feel about disrespecting women. Especially early on in dressing, many crossdressers dress according to an immature archetype. One hopes the person then evolves a more sophisticated look, but not always - this is especially true, I think, if the CD is a sexual fetish.
My objective is above all to express myself in a dignified way that respects women. I also do not want to look like a fool, ever.
Interesting thread!
I find this thread very interesting.......and a touch confusing. From what I can gather Mocking women is when men try to pass themselves off as women, by effectively changing the perception of gender. However, If they did it well, as one said, they didnt notice - so WHY wasnt this percieved as mocking?
I remember watching Trainspotting and The Crying Game with my mates (male). There are two bits in those films that caused a lot of issues with all of us. Both centred around a percieved female turning out to be a male in womens clothing. At the time of watching none of us had any idea (certainly in the crying game!). So I can certainly understand why women feel mocked and why men feel threatened.
Most of our lives we are brought up to believe what we see and not question it. So when it turns out we were wrong there is an instant feeling of deception. Possible explanation of why SO's react the way they do when finding out.
A lot of us are portraying/trying to portray ourselves as something we are not, and NEVER will be!
And I consider myself in this position to!
Hope this makes sense
Rach
I agree that respect works both ways. There is room too for those that prefer to exaggerate their appearance. To say that the conservatives are the problem is the divisiveness that was my basic point. Every-one's POV is valid and entitled to be expressed, without the implication that it is a condemnation.
A spouse considering her relationship with her TG husband might not see it that way. There are a lot of issues to consider....The issue is not about our fashion sense, but that fact a social taboo exists against men displaying femininity.
Ignorance is not implicitly a condemnation. Nor is it derogoratory. It is just ignorance - a lack of knowledge of the facts. Intolerance stems for that ignorance and subsequent lack of trust. More media events, more rallies, more TGers running for public office. These are part of the process. As are the TGers out running everyday errands in a feminine form, and the TGers dressed for fun at the club....The mockery charge is nothing more than a distraction which only reveals ignorance and intolerance. I trust those who believe mockery argument are drafting an instruction booklet informing the rest of us how to avoid this charge by measuring how long our skirts can be, how high our heels can be and how large our breast forms can be before we trespass over this imaginary line in the sand.
The mockery question (it is not a charge) is just more information on how some people feel. If we respect that that is how some people feel, we can do something about it. If we attack it as a baseless subversion we close our eyes and ears and minds to communication.
Carin
I have gone on a journey in search if myself. If you find me before I return, please hold on to me until I get back.
I think this really is based on an extreme lack of understanding. Most people with some t-affiliation fall in the category of truly being born in the wrong gender (who, dressing, never are confused with mocking) and those who get their rocks off by dressing in the other gender's clothes, which, being fetishistic, comes off as mocking, but is nothing more than a 'kick' for the person into it.
I believe flipping the coin and asking those GGs about FTMs and Drag Kings should make things highly apparent to them.
This thread has been really interesting ... here is another take on the subject.
Yesterday (New Year's Eve here in NZ) I was down at the Sky City hotel/casino around lunch time, where they were getting ready for the evening's festivities. A young lady, in her twenties, I would guess, was waiting in the foyer to practise her trapeze routine. The small stage was set up in the foyer. She was standing around dressed in a blue t-shirt, bright pink panties with garters attached, pink and white patterned stockings with red bows on the back, and pink ballet shoes. Her hair was dyed a light pink, too.
I don't know why, but I felt acutely embarrassed for her. Her outfit bordered on being obscene, certainly for the surroundings and the time of day. And there were plenty of young children around.
I really do wonder about the foyer being an appropriate place for her to do her thing!
Later on, after she had finished practising, I saw her at the top of one of the escalators. She wearing red high heels instead of the ballet shoes, but the rest of her attire was unchanged. I found myself thinking that, if I were her and had any self-respect, I would have at least donned a skirt.
Who is mocking women in this instance?
BTW - Happy New Year to everyone!
A few years ago I was at a symphony concert with a girl friend (I was in guy mode). A woman sat down 2 seats over from us who got our attention in a negative way. She was wearing a black leather skirt (above the knee), high heeled boots and fishnets. She was in her late 40's (as is my friend). My friend called her (to me) a hussy. I agreed that the outfit was more appropriate for clubbing than the concert hall.
The point of those who say some of us need to tone it down is that the pornification of America is widespread. Most would agree that this is a bad thing for our society in general, and it is best for our CD COMMUNITY (none of us live in a social vacuum) to NOT contribute to this problem.
We all have the right to dress how we want. We can all SAY what we want, also. That does not mean that we are also free from the consequences of those statements (including how we dress in public). Additionally, how we act/dress in public contributes to the greater society's impression of others like us. Again, we don't live in social vacuum.
Rosa Parks' actions were non-conformist but contributed to righting a social injustice. Dressing like a hussy does not contribute to righting a social injustice, it merely reinforces already negative stereotypes about CDers. Dressing appropriately for the occassion en femme and going out does contribute to righting the social injustice against us. Please think of the greater community when going out- you represent more than just you.
Typical female whineing. If I really wanted to mock women, I would wear a pantsuit with big shoulder pads, clunky macho shoes, a short haircut, and talk on my cellphone, while driving slowly in the left lane, in a big SUV!
If I really wanted to mock women, I would stand in the checkout lane, watching the cashier ring up a basketful of groceries, and wait for the final total, then start rummaging through my purse for my checkbook, then rummage some more for a pen, while carefully not looking back at the long line of angry customers.
Last edited by Melinda G; 12-31-2008 at 03:04 PM.
Thanks for the info, Michelle. I have to admit that I never would have thought of the mocking aspect. I know some CD's exaggerate things a bit, but I never heard any comments that would lead me to think they were mocking women.
I'm sure there are CDs who hate women, just like there are women who hate men. I'm not sure this has anything to do with CDing though.
It's amazing to me that so many of these women came to this conclusion. It's a puzzler.
Try not to get carried away nitpicking about exactly what "mockery" means and whether we do it. Remember, this is just michelle2b's summary of a bunch of different views expressed by different people. What they think is surely much more complex than that one extracted point.
It will probably be more productive to try to put ourselves in their shoes and understand their negative reactions. Whatever you may think about feminists and college students, hostile reactions from women are hardly uncommon. Ignoring and discounting them will not do anybody any good.
I donk think Cds are mocking women even though it might look like it. CDs wearing big (fake) breasts, a lipstick color that is out of fashion decades ago (may be taken from grandmothers bed side cabinate), outrageuos wigs etc..etc the list is endless i think as Cds try to copy women especially the way they dress and due to the fact that we (CDs) dont have any coach, and majority of us are closeted we end up teaching ourselves how to dress and grabbing and wearing any femme accessory to satisfy our immediate fetish needs.
Those who start CDing late tend to dress shabbily.........wen i first join flickr.com i wasnt that good in dressing enfemme but with some inputs from both GGs and tgirls things got better and most of all after coming out to my girlfriend she helped me out with my dressing, my wig, and the position of my breasts and how to present myself as a woman in general.
In a nut shell CDs might just be "over dressing" due to lack of fashion tips just like a "local" chick who doesnt know how to look chic, most CDs i know have really improved in their dressing over the years, from looking trashy or ****ty to looking mature and fab.
The desire to improve in dressing increases ten fold wen a CD starts nursing the idea of passing as a woman in public, sorry for the long post, byeee.
Ditto for me. As the responses to this thread suggest the perceptions expressed by the GG's in that forum are complex but we do need to be aware of what was being expressed, no matter what the reasons may be.
My theory on this is that the angry women are upset and jealous, because they see crossdressing men as invading their territory.
Time after time, less than happy women comment that my nails are better than theirs, that I look better in a skirt than they do, and that they can't wear heels as high as mine.
When men invade and conquer women's traditional territory, it is natural that some women will be jealous and angry. I accept that, and do not seek to escalate conflict.
It is not my problem, though, if insecure women feel threatened by a man who better manifests traditionally female styles.
True, but unfortunately these same judgmental people discriminate against anyone who doesn't fit their particular mold, be they men, women or transpersons.
But we are talking about two different issues here. Yes, members of the M2F TG community have every right to present in the gender they feel most comfortable without being discriminated against for expressing their femininity. And of course they should fight for this right by coming out of their closets into the mainstream and engaging in the activities you mentioned earlier. But this is quite a different issue than also attempting to change society's accepted rules of decorum.
Like it or not, certain forms of dress are more appropriate in some circles than others. Even though there is IMO quite a leeway, extreme looks with be judged. A young woman attending a five star restaurant would not be well received if she came in a bikini. If you want to find a job in the world of investment and finances, you don't show up for the interview in torn jeans and leather. Club wear is more appropriate in a club and not at church. Some sections of our cities are more liberal than others, but for the most part suggestive street wear characterizes someone as having loose morals. The reasons for this or whether or not it should be this way is outside of this discussion.
Unfortunately, until the media changes its outlook and begins to portray TGs differently, stereotypical mental images of hookers brand the CDer and this is why I am guessing GGs who have not had personal experiences with TGed individuals feel mocked or rather objectified when they think of them. So every time a TG goes out in the mainstream dressed like this, it reinforces the bias.
Oh, and GG hookers are judged just as harshly as the CDers who dress like them.
Obviously individuals are free to push the boundaries and disregard established dress codes, but unless there is a mainstream style revolution featuring risquee clothing, or society moves away from its puritanical view of sex, individuals dressing like hookers will be judged according to their style of dress. No matter what their gender.
Reine
Maybe the reason these women feel this way is because the only CD'ers that they have seen are those that are mocking them. Those that dress to pass fit in nicely and are not noticed. It is a shame that thesde women feel this way and really do not know the true crossdressers. Those with families and regular jobs just trying to enjoy lofe when they can.
Sure there are those that are still called crossdressers that fit the description that these ladies have. But there are alot more crossdressrs that dress to enjoy the feel of the fine clothing that the women get to enjoy, and drss more to emulate them rather than mock them. We are the ones that would be appaled to even think of mocking a women, but more worship the ground they walk on.
I was sitting outside a local strip mall last summer, waiting for my wife to come out. And in walks this guy wearing pink hotpants and a tshirt with a bra and forms. Any man that had any respect for women at all would never step out in public that way. They are the ones that these women see. And that is where they are forming thier opinions from.
I am not saying that no guy should ever dress this way, If that is what you are into, then keep it in your own place, Don't make a fool of yourself and give us all a bad name.
And for those that do dress to fit in and these women do not know. First of all GOOD JOB. And next time you are out dress and see that you can help a woman, Do it. Stop and hold a door for them. Pick up that can of beans that she dropped. Not only will they apprecaite the help, You will also get noticed in a good way.
Raychel
my sister's reply when I told her how I prefer to dress
"Everyone has there thing, all that matters is that you are happy, love what you do and who you do it with"
?? And who do you think you are, anyone will do so as they please, get over it.I am not saying that no guy should ever dress this way, If that is what you are into, then keep it in your own place, Don't make a fool of yourself and give us all a bad name.
This mockery thing is a pile of crap. Its not unless its a persons intentions to do so, and I dont!
Last edited by Janie Gunn; 01-01-2009 at 07:24 AM.
I posted a reply on this thread once. But this is subject that I feel very strongly about. These women who claim that we are "mocking" them, I feel, have an agenda. I have been a member of this forum for a while and it has been a integral part of my self discovery of crossdressing. And I have to say that I NEVER EVER read or at least got an inkling that one of the male to female crossdressers dressed that way to mock women. On the contrary, it appears that we want to emulate the women we admire.
The women who claim that we are mocking them really make me laugh. They are the same ones who have a problem with a man holding a door for them.
Sometimes I feel that this is an attempt to create another obstacle for us to overcome. We already have enough negative stereptypes to counter.
What do these women want to accomplish? Would they like us to stop crossdressing? Thats not going to happen.
Its almost like they are saying, equal rights for me, but not for you.
What can we do about it? Many CDs will always aim towards the more flamboyant, how do you propose to stop this? Do these women and sympathizing CDs also believe that GGs with large breasts and short skirts also mock women?
The whole issue is highly subjective and therefore an unnecessary distraction since everyone judges this subject differently. There is no agreeable solution. If you are easily annoyed by such matters then nothing short of fashion totalitarianism will satisfy you.
And the idea that dressing conservatively demonstrates respect for women just dumbfounds me.
We all understand that some people get upset when social decorum is broken but these rules don't mean anything. When bikinis and mini skirts first appeared they were considered scandalous yet society seemed to have no problem adapting very quickly and they became mainstream. Any man who crossdresses is by definition breaking decorum so it is guaranteed that someone will be upset by our very existance.
Funny how we would have no problem disregarding the viewpoint of a person who hates the existence of CDs yet we are supposed to be sensitive to people who are easily upset over fashion decorum.
But I think the issue is more subtle than just presenting a ****ty look as Katie said:
The underlying issue is that CDs are not generating new looks that do not already exist with GGs. We could dress outrageously and so long as we were accompanied by GGs who were dressed similarly then we would never be accused of mockery. The real issue is that our height and build and penchant for more feminine clothing than is normally worn by GGs makes us stand out, especially as we are usually alone, which immediately makes us targets for those who harbor prejudices.No CD who dresses as a punk girl with tattoos and multiple piercings will get accused of mocking women if she's 5'6" and only mixes with punks
I see a very similar parallel between CDs in public and women first entering a previously exclusive male working environment. The first women to do so had a difficult choice - either act like a guy so as to minimize the differences and hopefully generate acceptance or to remain true to themselves exhibiting some feminine behaviors that irked the men creating resentment.
CDs are faced with the same dilemma because we are entering an exclusive women's place. Some women are appalled that we did this, others conclude that they will tolerate it so long as CDs adhere to the unspoken rules and guidelines governing GG society. Of course this makes no allowance for the fact that CDs are not GGs and so we should be allowed to express our own viewpoints and fashion statements.
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