Of course some crossdressers mock women. The proof can be found at any of the "less polite CD websites" and public sites, including myspace and youtube. A veritable sea of crossdressers displaying nothing but their thonged rear ends and platformed shod feet.
If this is not insulting to women then I don't know what is.
Your point would stand if someone wanted to ban size 0 models. However if someone wanted a fair representation of diverse body sizes and shapes rather than a small minority being represented as a standard because the inability for the vast majority to meet it helps sell products to them that does not in any way mean that size 0 people cannot remain represented.Originally Posted by Toni_Lynn
Compare: One need not remove white people from South African tv programs to include black people on tv when apartheid was dismantled. To complain about over-representation of white people ion tv remained perfectly valid.
I don't see why the line isn't clear. To criticise for an unethical action would always be valid. To do so for merely being different always invalid whether its about age, hair style, skin colour of being a woman. This is logicly distinct and purely rational.My point here and in my statement is that one can find any criticism to be an -ism of some sort. I may not have stated my case appropriately, but I get very riled up when I hear a bunch of politically correct warm fuzziness passed of as an excuse for a reason for people feel a certain way about things.
Perhaps because the scorn is itself utterly wrong. Because by criticisng them we become complicit in that wrong.I fail to see why one cannot be critical of those in the TG community who dress in a manner that invokes scorn upon us,
Because one is individual presentation and the other is representation! If the latter is disproportionate to the community it is wrong. Happy low-IQ housewives that enjoy housework and exist for the happyness of their husbands do exist, but when they were the majority of representations of women excluding all those who were intelligent and wanted careers and independance and equality etc then it was harmful bad and wrong.while at the same time it is fine to cry foul when a commercial or TV show made outside the community does the same.
Clearly though the context of the speaker can vastly change meaning. But that is not directly comparable when the causal issue is about representation of diversity rather than of a minority raised asstereotype as is the case in both the size 0 model examples and CD media presentation ones.Its kind of like why the rap/hip-hop community can get away with using the N word yet anyone away fropm that can't. If something isn't right or offense, it applies to all.
Some African Americans like watermelon and fried chicken just like plenty of white people do but the stereotypical dissproportionate representation of black people doing so in american cinema of the past was different from an individual black person happily eating some.
Actually this is exactly the views of some women, amongst the 2nd wave/radical feminists like Germaine Greer who have actually compared crossdressing and SRS as a form of rape by the man on women!
I agree about freedom, some are discussing forced homogenity via social pressures of criticism however, the latter point is true, however many have held that view contrary to logic. Also we should consider some men actually possessing femininity rather than merely emulating it.
I put it to you that the existence of GG exhibitionists invalidates your point entirely. Images identical in every particular save the anatomy of the person in them exist all over the net of GGs happily displaying themselves just the same. In fact as 'The Porn Report' a scientific study of erotic material in Australia found the majority of material is non-comercial, consenting and produced for the purposes of exhibitionism.
Thusly it cannot possibly be mocking of women to act like many women do! It may be however in violation of and mocking of socially accepted false notions and rules of what women are and do that may be called themselves a mockery of women because of their falseness.
Last edited by battybattybats; 01-04-2009 at 11:04 PM. Reason: avoiding mutliple posts
Wow! I did not know there would be so many responses to this thread. I have been traveling for the last few days and could not check back here often due to bad internet connections.
To answer some of your questions -
I did not ask them if they knew the difference between cross-dressers and drag-queens. However, during the discussion, one of them brought up the topic of drag-queens, in reference to my question about where each one of them had seen any kind of trans people. She explained to the group that drag-queens are gay men who impersonate women. This was way before we even got into the "mockery" discussion.
Please note that these women live in an area where we have lots of drag-queens, crossdressing groups, transgender groups and transexuals. They had all lived here for at least 6 months (the range was 6 months to their complete lifetime). They are not strangers to genetic males in feminine presentation. I do not know if all the women know about the fine differences between each of these groups. This focus group was not about educating them. Rather, it was about identifying their existing impressions and opinions.
I was in an attire similar to their own - jeans, sweater, long hair. The students at the focus group do not know that I am transgender. I took down my picture on this website, but let me assure you that I pass very easily. Between age 22 and 26, I worked as a girl, without hormones, without blockers, but nobody knew, except HR. My voice is naturally quite feminine, or child-like. I sound like a 10-12 year old. I am on HRT and I look even more feminine than I did when I was 26.
I thought about going to the focus group as a guy, but then I decided against it because I wanted these women to talk more openly.
My girlfriend was also there with me. We are almost the same height (she is 5'6" and I am 5'7"). We adjusted our shoes so as to appear equally tall. I am Asian, and my girlfriend is Causasian. Our weights are 3 pounds apart. We wear the same dress size. Our hand length and gestures are very similar. Because my girlfriend and I are so similar in proportions, any sexual dimorphism between us was less evident.
I did not introduce myself by gender. My girlfriend introduced herself by name and then she introduced me by name. The women in the focus groups made their own conclusions about my gender, which my girlfriend and I believe was "female". I did not speak to the group until my girlfriend introduced me, but I had welcomed each student entering into the room.
My girlfriend also asked questions during the focus group. I did not dominate the discussions. It was a casual environment where all the women could be themselves and speak their mind.
Now, to address some of the other points and concerns expressed here -
The point is not about whether you are intentionally mocking women, or even that the women are misunderstanding us. The point is that the particular women I met have this perception that crossdressers mock them and we, as a community, need to change it into a positive perception.
Whether the women I met are liberal or leftists or communists or ungodly or feminists or whatever else is irrelevant, and such labels can only be used to justify arguments that lead to our detriment. It is always wise to understand what people are trying to say even if we disagree with the category of humans they belong to. These women live in an area that is very welcoming towards all of us, including drag-queens, CD/TS/TG. They did not say that genetic males should stop presenting as female. They did not want to "take away your rights". The expressed what they see from their perspective. That's it.
In terms of the impression of mocking -
I met several trans people on my trip so far. The trans people seem to agree unanimously that they think that some of us "appear" to be mocking women through our presentation. Their argument was that it is not even about passing. They say that most women appreciate a good effort at emulating them. They say that they observe the equivalent of mocking through trans people who sit and walk with legs wide apart, walk with the shoulders swinging (and I am guilty of this one when I walk upslopes, not on flat ground, specifically when wearing heels), not shaving prominent coarse hair on exposed neck, chest, arms or legs, wear breast forms too large for body size, wear clothes too tight fitting, show too much leg, wear age-inappropriate clothing, wear inappropriate clothing for the situation (eg. wearing dancewear standing in line at a drivers license office), wear too much makeup, wear no makeup with facial hair showing, wear heavy makeup on the eyes and lips at the same time, wear makeup sloppily (eg. eyeliner all over the place), spit on the side of the road, burp openly in public, eat with mouth open and food showing, use strong or derogatory language in public, be too loud in public, be too sexually open in public, etc all when presenting as women. I did not have a tape recorder when these trans people were listing these out, so I noted down as many as I could remember at my hotel or airport. They had many more examples that I missed out. I am sure a few genetic women also have a few of these habits, but it seemed like the experienced trans people seemed to notice all of these in us.
Definitely possible. However, does it mean that they are all wrong in what they pointed out? Some women may see it as mocking, some others may find it adorable, but there seem to be examples that they are pointing to, which are all things on which we can improve as a community.
I typically do an initial written segment of my focus groups, but I skipped that part during this focus group (I was not prepared with enough papers and pencils during a bad snowy day). So I know that group-think is a possibility here. At the same time, all of them were asked to provide examples about whatever they thought. So if they were bluffing or copying others, they were grilled further to find out why they think the way they claimed to.
As I pointed out, I do not have a large enough sample to generalize this to "all" women in the world. Of course there may be many women who find it adorable for a genetic male presenting as a female with a hairy chest and arms, sitting or walking with legs apart, .... etc. I am not the arbitrator of the judgment of all women in the world. All I see is that there is scope for improvement, in myself too, and I like to take feedback and act on the things that I can. I actually appreciate when well-meaning people provide me feedback about my presentation which I can incorporate into my life and make it more positive. I shared with everyone here because I hope you can be honest to yourself and try a few things yourself too.
Last edited by michelle2b; 01-05-2009 at 06:47 AM.
Nonsense. What you wear doesn't mock women, no matter WHAT you wear. Do you think that only cross-dressers wear thongs and platform heels, and have themselves displayed online? Are the women that do these things mocking themselves?
I've interacted with a lot of cross-dressers and a fair number of drag queens, and none of them ever said that mocking women had the slightest thing to do with their dressing - not one.
It is supremely arrogant for women to presume they are being mocked just because someone with Y chromosomes is wearing something they don't approve of.
We do what we do because we like it, and it feels good to us. Just because you can't understand it, don't presume that your assumptions about our behavior have any basis in reality, because they don't.
[SIZE="4"][/SIZE]Bobbi Joseph
sig removed - against forum rules
It's not what you wear. It how you wear it and display yourself while attempting to represent a female. Impersonation is often not the most sincerest form of flattery. Also most people don't really tell the truth about why they CD anyway.
Last edited by Dr.Susan; 01-05-2009 at 08:51 AM.
Other TG people can be as guilty of transphobia as anyone else.
Androgynous and genderqueer people are in every way as valid as CDs and TSs.
Heck, most male goths could easilly be classed as such, I know my 'male' appearance dances those lines most days.
Gender is not binary and no-one can criticise a person with a beard in stockings without invalidating their own claims to any expression outside the most extreme gender stereotypes.
Just because bigotry is common does not make it valid. It is interesting to study certainly but it is also neccessary to educate the ignorant and stand up against injustice.
A person with a beard in a dress is not mocking. They are standing up for what is right! Personal individual expression!
LOL while writing this I stumbled on this bit of related news http://intersexnews.blogspot.com/200...manifesto.html
And as part of my point I raise these pictures of myself as a 'boy' I posted a while back in the gallery http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=89282
I look like this in public frequently. Often with heavy eye-makeup along with my lips I might add!
The judgements against non-conforming TG people are unjust, unethical and hypocritical.
It's been centuries since the enlightenment. Why are we still waiting then for genuine equality or for most people to understand the simple basic principles?
I have never ever seen any TG person display themselves or comport themselves in any way that I have not also seen GGs do so!
Wearing clothing that is feminine is not impersonating women. It is expressing femininity which is a trait held to some degree by just about every human.
Being female is a medical state. It is nebulous. Many people are neurologically, genetically and/or anatomically both male and female with many different degrees of each of these traits.
There is no impersonation in pretty much all of transgender expression. It is only those rare few that imperasonate a particular person or stereotype for satirical purposes that can be considered such. And in that case it is art and not gender expression and is only judgeable as art.
Unless of course we consider those who dress more like women to blend in when they'd be happier with the beard and the dress together. That would arguably be impersonation.
At some point society is going to have to consider the scientific and medical facts about Intersex and when they do the binary model of gender will be shown for the lie it has always been.
Last edited by battybattybats; 01-05-2009 at 09:11 AM. Reason: avoiding double post
I have no issues with women who peddle their wares. In fact I applaud them for separating some abusive man from his money. But a CD representing their hind quarters as as makeshift vagina for someone is a mockery to me.
As for female impersonators anyone steals other peoples appearance and performances and profits from it is in fact also a mockery with the exception of performers like Jim Bailey, Grea Phillips and Jimmie James who actually sing. I am a artist is one of the great excuses of modern times.
Guess you missed this bit I posted:Non-commercial! People of their own free will for their own personal enjoyment exchanging erotic images of themselves. Not only is about 1/3rd of the porn audience female but plenty are making their own material and distributing it to others purely for the kicks. No money, no abusive man. Just exhibitionists of all sexes genders and orientations enjoying showing themselves to voyuers of likewise diversity in an entirely concensual manner.In fact as 'The Porn Report' a scientific study of erotic material in Australia found the majority of material is non-comercial, consenting and produced for the purposes of exhibitionism.
Plenty of women show their hindquarters, not as makeshift vaginas but because anal sex is enjoyed by countless men and women. Even plenty of straight men are into 'pegging'. Again, not an iota of mockery but something huge numbers of everday men and women do. Perhaps there are relevant things about human sexuality that you are underinformed on to render a fair judgement on the subject?But a CD representing their hind quarters as as makeshift vagina for someone is a mockery to me.
I suggest that you may like to read about both the ancient forms of satire and also several cultural art traditions of performing physically to others voices. To call being an artist an excuse you must first show that it is not in fact a valid reason merely a pretense at such with another motive entirely. As such I hope you've been reading up on performance-art through history and modern times. Consider for example the Dada movement with it's uses of peoples images and words.As for female impersonators anyone steals other peoples appearance and performances and profits from it is in fact also a mockery with the exception of performers like Jim Bailey, Grea Phillips and Jimmie James who actually sing. I am a artist is one of the great excuses of modern times.
Last edited by battybattybats; 01-05-2009 at 10:37 AM.
How the hell would you know, Suzie, who do you think you are, saying that!Dr Susan: It's not what you wear. It how you wear it and display yourself while attempting to represent a female. Impersonation is often not the most sincerest form of flattery. [Also most people don't really tell the truth about why they CD anyway]
And if someone says they dont dress to mock women, then you'd better believe it, because they know better about themselves than you do.
Because the scorn is judgmental in nature. Why should you criticize someone because of another person's value system?
What if the CD community turned on you and said the way you dressed brings the rest of us into disrepute because Jane said so? You think that is fair? How do you feel when people judge you as a pervert?
Because you share the same values as these women, you fail to see why harshly judging others, especially when based upon erroneous presumptions, is divisive.
When we agree with such sentiments we are making judgments based on personal opinions or standards and believe them to be superior. This makes us look down on others, as if we are so much better.
This means we make no effort to get to know the person, or understand them, or see whether the judgment was even remotely correct.
To be judgmental is to find others guilty until proven innocent. It is the wrong way to go about life. It leads to close-mindedness and you will distance yourself from people for unfounded reasons.
This proves absolutely nothing. Anyone living in any city lives in an environment which has lots of CDs and TGs. So what? There is nothing in these women's answers which indicates they have had any contact with the TG community.
That is a big presumption on your part.They are not strangers to genetic males in feminine presentation.
Personally I am surprised that anyone found this attitude revealing.The point is that the particular women I met have this perception that crossdressers mock them
Eh? Knowing that a person's views are shaped by a certain ideology makes all the difference. How much weight would you give to a person's hatred of Jews if you know them to be a member of the Nazi party?Whether the women I met are liberal or leftists or communists or ungodly or feminists or whatever else is irrelevant
No big surprise, trans people usually have a different agenda to the average CD. They typically want to blend in to be accepted by society as a real woman. CDs typically want to enjoy certain aspects of femininity and only fantasize about being a real woman. Many CDs enjoy aspects of masculinity!The trans people seem to agree unanimously that they think that some of us "appear" to be mocking women
The horror! This list reveals a belief that any behavior unbecoming of an elegant, straight-laced Victorian lady can be construed as mocking women. Personally I find many of the details quite disturbing due to their discriminatory overtones. I am sorry to hear that many of us are not womanly enough to pass the grade.They say that they observe the equivalent of mocking through trans people who sit and walk with legs wide apart, walk with the shoulders swinging....
Do you speak for the community? Did you ever consider many are very happy presenting their own femininity and don't want or need others' blessing?but there seem to be examples that they are pointing to, which are all things on which we can improve as a community.
If your objective is to blend invisibly into society and conform to GG social rules and seek to please others by not doing anything to offend their sensibilities then by all means improve your presentation to this end.All I see is that there is scope for improvement, in myself too, and I like to take feedback and act on the things that I can. I actually appreciate when well-meaning people provide me feedback about my presentation which I can incorporate into my life and make it more positive.
My femininity is my own to express in the manner of my choosing. The feminist movement freed women from the binds of gender conformity and allowed them to freely express themselves for the first time in known history. I salute all women who sit with legs apart and swing their shoulders. Good for them!
so what...i cant see why thats insulting to women...they need to get over themselves are let any one be the peson they feel they are, and wear whatever clothes they feel comfortable with.
sheesh, most Womans clothing has been pinched from mens clothing anyways...high heels? they pinched them off blokes, stockings? the same. tell em we trannys just reclaiming what is rightfully ours, and mind their own business
Am I the only one to think it was a shame that you didn't use your presence to educate them, in their beliefs, once you'd identified their opinions?
Precisely. Given your access, what are your plans?The point is not about whether you are intentionally mocking women, or even that the women are misunderstanding us. The point is that the particular women I met have this perception that crossdressers mock them and we, as a community, need to change it into a positive perception.
Look around at the many young women who now have grown up mainly wearing trousers and flat shoes - you'll see lots of them sitting with their legs apart, often with a 'male' walk, too..Of course there may be many women who find it adorable for a genetic male presenting as a female with a hairy chest and arms, sitting or walking with legs apart, .... etc.
Many of us wish to remove our body hair, but their are many reasons why we can't, apart from what our hormones do to us? It seems just as unfair to judge us as it is to judge those women from the Indian sub-continent who often suffer from heavy body hair?
Nicki
[SIZE="1"]Moi?[/SIZE]
I am a crossdresser and have been one for a long time and in my opinion from some of the comments I have read at this forum and at others. I have seen some very purposely unfaltering representations, print and photo, of women, I would say some indeed mock woman.
I don't know anything about them and make no pretense to do so but I am allowed my opinion like everyone else. I don't expect anyone to agree with me but I do expect many to disagree, because this is one of those threads where there is no obvious answer to the question.
How do you know when someone is not lying anyway? In fact I bet a major portion of the membership and guests, are not even crossdressers but those that come here for some personal and physical satifaction.
Last edited by Dr.Susan; 01-05-2009 at 10:26 PM.
I agree with you Dr.Susan I do feel that we Cd's do mock women, but you will not hear a Cd's say that here in cross dressers.com were every thing a Cd's dose is right.
We Cd's want to blame other like drag queens and Cd's who dress unflattering for mocking women........but not us we dress for self expression not to mock women
You hear Cd's talk about how much they love women so they emulate then as a form of flattery, but you do have some Cd's who may not like women but they emulate them anyway.
Some of the things we Cd's do and say are insulting to women and a lot of us do mock women.
LA CINDY LOVE
and
Well, I, like others here, defend anothers right to present as they need to, blending, drag, fetish, little girl, male, female, or otherwise?
I've certainly seen some misogyny in the trans world - but it's a small minority, often to do with the experiences and upbringing of a specific person - it's certainly NOT all of us.. There are genetic women out there who mock and dislike other women, too.a lot of us do mock women.
Nicki
[SIZE="1"]Moi?[/SIZE]
You defined your personal ideal of having children as THE ideal for all. You essentially told her her job as a woman is to have babies. You shouldn't be surprised such chauvinism produces an angry response.
[SIZE="3"]Gender is a state of mind[/SIZE]
LGBTQ PRIDE
As of Oct. 5th, go here to see my pics:http://www.flickr.com/people/fab_karen/
A Yankee Doodle T-Girl
proud of my President
Problem: A group is not accepted by another because they are in some way different even though the difference is ethical.
Solution A. Unaccepted group strives as much as possible to conform to other group so as to gain acceptance neccessairly treating parts of itself who will not or cannot conform as well as other groups that are also dissimilar in the same way as they were treated that prompted the situation in the first place. Result: acceptance for some, unacceptance for others, those who are accepted as or more guilty as those who did not accept initially.
Solution B. Educate the other group, stand up for ethical nonconformity, stand up for the more different in ones own group as well as for other groups. Result: Increased acceptance of everyone ethical.
Solution A is intrinsicly and irredeemably hypocritical. Immoral, unethical and wrong at every point and level. The initial unacceptance may be due to ordinary ignorance, a simple lack of knowledge. The deliberate marginalisation of non-conformers though goes from the self-centred ignorance all the way to deliberately selfish harming of others for personal gain!
Solution B is harder for those who most easilly could benefit from solution A but is the only option for many who would be harmed by solution A and the easiest for those for whom solution A would be a possible but struggling option.
Now we can run all sorts of ethical differences through this model. Differing religions like Christianity and Hinduism for example or subcultures like Mainstream suburbanites and Goth. Bestialists pedophiles and all the rest of the bogeys that people throw against the notions of tolerance and diversity are all unethical intrinsicly.
Or to put it at it;s most basic level:
Solution A is the kid with glasses tripping the fat kid so the bullies will accept him.
So is there a flaw in this or can we now all logicly support Solution B and condemn Solution A as intrinsicly evil and wrong?
Yep, solution B, philosopher Batty. (I think you've always got the best, most logical answers). [and any time you're heading to Sth Aust (Adel), please let me know, I'd enjoy catching up]
I think that says a lot! A very good description!!The deliberate marginalisation of non-conformers though goes from the self-centred ignorance all the way to deliberately selfish harming of others for personal gain!
No you are not the only one, I made a similar comment myself. Since Michelle operates in stealth mode, I presume she does not normally educate the general public.Am I the only one to think it was a shame that you didn't use your presence to educate them, in their beliefs, once you'd identified their opinions?
This whole thread seems to me to revolve around the age long tiff between the TS and CD communities. Some TS bemoan the fact that CDs are sometimes too flamboyant in either their femininity or their sexuality. They claim this makes it harder for them as TS to be accepted. In effect CDs bring TS into disrepute and CDs should change their ways to follow the TS example of invisibly blending in and complete conformity. Not to do so is disrespectful to GGs etc.
So when Michelle found this group of female students complaining about the look and behavior of feminine men then naturally she wanted to share this to provide ammo for this line of thought.
If that were even remotely true then when these pictures are posted then we would see comments like "Ha ha good one, you really nailed the trashy look but your breasts are not gigantic enough". Instead the comments are "You look lovely". Why would anyone want to present a purposely unflattering picture when what they are after is support and validation of their femininity?
Your argument rests solely on your own personal interpretation of the pictures based upon your personal values.
I can certainly understand her wanting to remain stealth - but there are surely other ways to defeat prejudice?
I don't think Michelle meant on this site...If that were even remotely true then when these pictures are posted then we would see comments like "Ha ha good one, you really nailed the trashy look but your breasts are not gigantic enough". Instead the comments are "You look lovely". Why would anyone want to present a purposely unflattering picture when what they are after is support and validation of their femininity?
Nicki
[SIZE="1"]Moi?[/SIZE]
and have some thoughts.
I do believe the reality is that some women feel that men who present themselves in a feminine or female way in fact do *mock* women. That of course is not the intent of the majority of CDs. Some CDs really do adore the female/feminine form. Other CDs see *dressing* in a sexual way and present in such a way. And still others see themselves as TG or TS and present in a way that *blends*. None of these are *wrong* or *more right*. They just are. And so is the the reality of the women who were in the focus group. Whether that reality came from prejudice, bigotry or ignorance does not make that reality less real.
IMO if this reality bothers you (the general you) then it would behoove you to find ways to accept that reality and then find ways to change it. Change happens in so many ways, little and big, in everyday life. We do it by raising our children to be more open. We do it in our conversations with friends. We do it in the educational system. If the reality of these women doesn't bother you then there isn't anything for you to do or complain about.
Louise.
In my mind I place the over the top in the catagory of "drag queens" I know we shouldn't label ourselves but there is a difference in a crossdresser (look at the classy girls here) and Drag Queens who do make a mockery as they say of women. That is what queens do, over emphasize the femine look. Unfortunately that is the image that Hollywood perpetuates. Think about every film that features men in womens clothes. We are either perverts and murderers or clowns (sorry for all you who like Tootsie but honestly).
Something else that may bother those women is that we as a group tend to make ourselves look good (as best we can) in a routine basis and they find that threatening because they don't want to take the time to put on a little makeup and spiff up. What girl here wouldn't love the oppurtunity to do that on a regular basis?
sigh
*threatening*??? That line is getting sooo old. GGs are NOT threatened by how CDs/TS/ TGs dress or make themselves look *pretty*, lol.
Mockery is in the eye of the beholder. I dont believe drag queens mock women, they impersonate women with theatrical indulgence.
Anyone who does impersonaltions, anyone in the acting business or even those who tell jokes could be charged with mockery.
Mockery is defined as an insulting or derisionary impersonation meant to cause offense or attack a person's character.
Dressing up in a glamorous outfit does not indicate mockery.
Doing a song and dance routine does not indicate mockery.
Making sexual innuendos playing on the Big Joke that the drag queen is not a GG but a man does not indicate mockery.
That people would describe a drag queen's act as mockery is indicative of the widespread intolerance surrounding the notion of men displaying femininity. Being a taboo subject makes everyone extra sensitive so an exuberant display touches nerves.
Last edited by Satrana; 01-06-2009 at 11:24 PM.
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