About mocking women

[Edyta_C]

Well, I think that the CD community does divide into sort of two schools. One which has utmost respect and honor for all things female, the another school which is dressing for shock factor. They enjoy the attention etc. While I like short skirts, I would no more wear one out than my wife would at our age.

But is quite interesting to hear that opinion from GGs. To me it is surprising to hear. Michelle points out that it is small sample to draw any sweeping trend from. It is an interesting sample opinion. I may not present as the cutest or most femme, but I would never mock intentionally.

Edy

[Annie D]

Most of us are in agreement that we crossdress not to mock women but to emmulate them. What comes to mind is how we watch women, not necessarily in a sexual way but rather admiring what they are wearing and trying to visualize how we might look wearing that outfit. Looking at the ads in magazines and in the newspapers, yes I am drawn to juniors and misses fashion because I think that the styles worn by these age groups are more colorful and pretty than those worn by older women. I have learned that I cannot wear junior's fashions, but it does get me in tune to what I like and as a result shop for the same styles in misses or in my case plus sizes. I also think that most of us try to dress in good taste, it is sometimes that we just can't pull it off all the time. I also believe that if we didn't pass but dressed enfemme24/7 we would not mock women and their fashion sense but would dress for the occasion, pretty much like we do in male mode.

[rachellenicole]

I think that the majority of women that are exposed to crossdressers see a very small group who are out in public a lot, in clubs, malls etc. who are over dressed and draw attention to themselves. A lot of attention is directed toward professional Drag Queens and Femals Impersonators also. I don't think the average female has had much exposure to the transgender community as a whole, so they can comment only on that aspect of our community. That said, I'm not trying to pass judgement on anyone. I believe that most of us try to dress tastefully and age appropriate, and do not intend to mock or disrespect GG's. I prefer to try to fly under the radar and blend in, but thats just my preference.


Only my humble opinion

Rach

[Carin]

They don't know us very well.
They don't know us at all.

I think the hostile members of your focus group are missing the point...

No, they don't know us. Yes they are missing the point. How could it be otherwise. Neither is their fault.

If we care, if we want acceptance, we have to sell it.
If we want to show respect for women, we will make an effort to show that respect, and not with a 'take it or leave it' attitude.

I have sat in a TG support group and listened to people who transitioned years ago. By their attitude (and foul language) I could hear the testosterone coming through loud and clear.

We want to show our own individuality. And so we should. And we can do it with respect. Because we care about more than just ourselves.

[michelle2b]

While it was interesting doing the focus group with the students yesterday, I also find it interesting to read the messages here. I notice messages from different perspectives, different levels of empathy (ie. the ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes, for which we have to first remove our own shoes!), and different levels of maturity about the whole topic.

I was going to ignore some of the things said here, but a prominent TS person who saw this thread told me that the negative responses here are very unhealthy. So here goes ...

I understand that some of us have a negative perspective of feminists. Yes, the women I met seemed very progressive. They are all focused on various types of studies, including sociology, electrical engineering, medicine, etc. However, I think it is very immature for us to label such women as feminists just because they do not agree with our viewpoint. There is no evidence that any of them are "feminists". Labels are great to disregard valuable input that could help society progress. We label people as nazi, communists, etc, and these days we label people as liberals, feminists, environmentalists, nerds, etc as if to say that their perspectives are wrong, irrelevant, less important, etc just because they belong to a certain label, which we placed on them. Recently, I heard in a television program in which a guy was discussing his issues against a another person who is gay; he said that the person is gay and hence trustworthy and unreliable, and he did not want any such gay person to have any contact with his family. What if someone says that you are a cross-dresser and hence you are mentally insane, psychopath, who might also be a pedophile and hence your opinions and your votes don't count? Would you like to be judged this way? It is equally wrong to label some women as feminists and then claim that their association with feminists make their viewpoints wrong. We need to stop such name-calling. If you own a company that makes a product which nobody buys because your potential customers say that your product is useless, do you argue with and fight with those customers who say that, or do you work to identify why your product seems useless from the customers' perspective and then try to make it useful so that the customers would buy it?

It is a mark of a mature adult to be humble enough when we receive negative feedback to say, "I hear what you are saying, let me think about it and see if/how I improve the situation". It is sometimes possible that the negative feedback is coming from a wrong perspective, but it is our work to correct that perspective through our behavior and our actions. These women are not losing anything by not accepting you as a CD. You are the one who is losing support from the people who would have supported you if you would have listened and reacted in a mature manner. The moment some of us get belligerent and attack the people who provide us negative feedback, we lose all credibility and respect as a community as a whole. Those who do this are probably hurting us more than anyone else.

As I mentioned in my first message in this thread, the young women I met live in my area which is perhaps the most openly supportive area for LGBT people. This area has several cross-dresser and transgender groups. Topics about CDs/TS/TG/TV/etc are not hidden from the common people here, whether they are students or not. I do not know how each of the students personally feels about LGBT people, but they are smart enough to have got admission to other universities away from here if they really objected to LGBT people around here. These young women did not seem to object to cross-dressing per se. As I mentioned, they "don't care" that men "occasionally cross-dress". They also "need to know before getting emotionally involved" with a male who cross-dresses, which indicates that they have not shut the door to dating cross-dressing men. So I don't see why some people on this thread are taking this as an assault against their ability to cross-dress. The women were objecting to the way cross-dressing men that the women notice are present themselves, which to the women seemed like mocking.

[TxKimberly]

Honestly, that is pretty much the same reason I don't care for most drag performances. I think most more or less are caricatures of women, and yes, of cross dressers as well.

[Jonianne]

.......CD's that venture out in public come in two flavors.

Those that pass or almost pass and those that don't.

Those that do, probably dress to blend in and pass through the world largely undetected.

Those that don't are the ones that these women feel are mocking them.......

Susan, this is what ticks me off about the passing / not passing issue. I wish I could pass, but I do not. I guess that means according to some physicaly gifted cd'ers with femme faces, I should not go out because I don't look good enough. I've been told before that I don't have the face for it (by a hairdresser that worked with TV's). Well my wife pushed me out of the closet anyway and said "Joni needs to feel the sun on her face" and I resent being told that I present a problem to the CD'ers that pass.

I dress with the upmost respect to women, with whom I desire to identify with. I, as a male, don't have breasts so when I go out I don't put in fake ones at all. In fact I have never owned a bra. My hair is long enough now that I can style it and not have to have a wig. So I can now go out enfemme not wearing anything fake at all. I can just be me. At my age, I can get away with wearing very conservative and modest cloths like a lot of women in my area do. But still, I don't even come close to passing. I'm sorry if that offends some.

Susan, I'm sure you did not intentionally include those of us who simply don't have the physical characteristics to pass, but there is an underlining sentiment of an "us and them" attitude when talking about those who pass and those who don't. Just because we don't pass doesn't mean at all that we are trying to mock women.

added:
Susan, I'm sorry for comming across as harsh. I'm just in a period of stress and supersensitivity right now.

[TxKimberly]

. . . Susan, this is what ticks me off about the passing / not passing issue. . . .

Jonianne,

I don't mean to be argumentative, especially as quite a lot of pain is clear in your post, but . . . I've just re-read Susan's post just to be sure that I didn't miss anything, and as far can tell there was not even a hint of slamming those of us that don't "pass". Also, don't get too angry at Susan - remember she is just sharing with us the comments that women made to her. Their comments were about crossdressers that intentionally and greatly exaggerated the female attributes, not those that simply didn't make believable females. Not that I have the right to interpret their thoughts, by to my way of thinking, it appears they are irritated by the lack of respect, not a lack of ability.

[ElaineB]

I was going to ignore some of the things said here, but a prominent TS person who saw this thread told me that the negative responses here are very unhealthy.

The negative responses seem quite defensive to me ... and there is no reason for it; these girls were not talking about us specifically, because they do not know us (well except michelle2b perhaps). So this has obviously touched a nerve and ... one has to wonder ... are they on to something some of us do not want to admit to ourselves?

It is tragic, but true, that a vast number of people, me included, and gg's have father issues, and have been unable to have healthy close relationships with opposite sex.

If you combine this with the mocking idea it gives much worth thinking about.

Are we acting out the attributes we want but cannot get from a relationship with real women? Some of us sure are ... since they said so in different words here and in other threads. "Women nowadays are not feminine enough." That is the simplest example, a sentiment we have heard many times here. I admit openly that dressing is a recurring substitute for a normal sex life for me ... and I am always mindful to make sure it stays as just a panacea rather than becoming an obsession.

If we do meet a woman who is very feminine, are we likely to become more or less interested in dressing? From past experience, I find myself less interested ... at least until we fight about something.

Are such women more or less accepting of dressing? In my experience again, I have found them less ... but that may also be because most very feminine women I knew were from cultures where gender boundaries are stronger than here.

Is it not natural that some woman would feel offended at what might be seen as a crude attempt by some of us to get just the bits of women we want? A living blowup doll, sort of.

Yes,.. relationships with fathers are certainly a factor. I have discovered recently that what i thought were certain unusual personality quirks in some of my relatives, are probably actually some form of autism.

Probably many of us can say this.

By the way and just for interest ... I have talked with many people on the autistic spectrum, and came to realize long ago that atypical sexuality is universal among them. Maybe the largest group are simply not interested in sex at all, but they include a much larger-than-usual GLB percentage as well ... and a large group of polyamory enthusiasts. I could not say how many crossdress but I would bet $50 that is also a larger percentage than usual.

[Ze xx]

Hi Michelle

Just out of interest, would you know how many of the women in your focus group realise the difference between cders and drag-queens? I'm asking purely since most gg's aren't involved in the cd community, if any of their gm friends crossdress they probably aren't aware of it, and possibly the only times that they have been aware of any form of cding happening is when it's a drag act, who do deliberately exagerate their look for the 'comedy' factor.

I also wonder, although I realise that you wouldn't know the answer, whether any of them simply weren't admitting to their SO's cding as it's not for them to tell. If I was in your focus group I probably wouldn't say in group that I lived with a cder as he's not ready for others to know, therefore it's not my place to say.

Mind you, my SO's ex-wife called him an abomination to her sex I don't see how. My SO is a 'part time' cder so doesn't want to dress all the time, and even when he is dressed I'm definitely the alpha-female

[valenstein]

One realization I came to over the years is that I used to dress like a teenage tramp for the same reason some teenage GGs do. I wanted attention and didn't have much expereience acting as a woman. A lot of this was new to me. Even to this day it's easier to look more feminine wearing something a little sexier because it distracts me from noticing the male features I'm trying to get away from.

The word "mocking" implies an intent. Drag queens are over the top as a form of entertainment and generally do not crossdress for the same reasons we do (though there are people who are both). They do their caricature where it is expected, on the inside world of a stage, whereas some of us who do go over the top do it as part of real life. In that instance it's easy to see why some people don't distinguish a difference between the two.

I've never met another CD that was intentionally mocking women, but there are those who only latch on to the sexual aspects of a woman. If you are doing that in privacy, so be it, but if you live that way all the time in public, it is creating a mockery, intended or not. I would bet many genetic women feel the same way about other genetic women who behave in the same fashion, so it's not limited to CDs.

It doesn't mean you can't dress a little outrageous, but make sure your personality will show through. Shock factor works if you are an entertaining personality, just ask the Naked Cowboy in Times Square. Shock Factor + Leave Me Alone = Scary/Creepy

You need to crossdress mentally as much as you do physically if acceptance is what you seek.

P.S. - I'm in awe of Intertwined's confidence, and it totally shows through.

[immike]

One realization I came to over the years is that I used to dress like a teenage tramp for the same reason some teenage GGs do. I wanted attention and didn't have much expereience acting as a woman. A lot of this was new to me. Even to this day it's easier to look more feminine wearing something a little sexier because it distracts me from noticing the male features I'm trying to get away from.

The word "mocking" implies an intent. Drag queens are over the top as a form of entertainment and generally do not crossdress for the same reasons we do (though there are people who are both). They do their caricature where it is expected, on the inside world of a stage, whereas some of us who do go over the top do it as part of real life. In that instance it's easy to see why some people don't distinguish a difference between the two.

I've never met another CD that was intentionally mocking women, but there are those who only latch on to the sexual aspects of a woman. If you are doing that in privacy, so be it, but if you live that way all the time in public, it is creating a mockery, intended or not. I would bet many genetic women feel the same way about other genetic women who behave in the same fashion, so it's not limited to CDs.

It doesn't mean you can't dress a little outrageous, but make sure your personality will show through. Shock factor works if you are an entertaining personality, just ask the Naked Cowboy in Times Square. Shock Factor + Leave Me Alone = Scary/Creepy

You need to crossdress mentally as much as you do physically if acceptance is what you seek.

P.S. - I'm in awe of Intertwined's confidence, and it totally shows through.

I'm a closet CD,but I still love to look at well-dressed women,wearing a short skirtsuit&
a silky white blouse/w a blazer&either suntan or off-black pantyhose&heels&I usually
wonder how I would look in her outfit,with a blonde wig&make-up

My favorite are the young females working in a professional office,where they must
dress well,in skirts,blouses,heels,etc.

[jina]

There were references made to someone saying negative things earlier,.. and looking through the posts I didn't really see much of that. I then concluded that what was being made reference to was my bringing feminism (and specifically, university type feminism) into the discussion.

Mentioning historical feminism (the philosophies of which can be verified by the writings of it's adherents) in this context is not negative or positive. I was just speaking from my own personal experience. I gave several examples of situations I witnessed first hand.. it seems like if there was something objectionable there, then at least one of the specifics would have been mentioned.

I considered *myself* a feminist until my experiences at college. The feminism I encountered there was less about being pro woman and more about being anti male. That's just from my experience,... I'm not saying all women (or even a majority) are like this. I am saying that you might find a higher percentage of this kind of philosophy at a university. I was really just saying that universities are not a good cross section of women's attitudes to anything. In fact,.. if you were going to base anything about men on what most male university students say and do,.. well, I have to laugh (again based on my experience, I live in a college town and i associate with this age group almost every day).

I don't like conflict (a feature of my personality). I wasn't going to reply,.. but the last few posts were more balanced (one from a GG).. so i felt safe to say what i feel. I wasn't being negative,.. i was just stating my experiences.

[sterling12]

Question? Did you try to establish that there are clothing and perceptual differences between a Crossdresser, and someone who they may have seen performing in a Drag Show or Drag Queens who are frequenting "rough trade bars" to pick up men.

There are times when even the best of us doesn't get it quite right on clothing choices; we can chock a lot of that up to inexperience, sort of like teen girls who are experimenting. And, there may be times when we "let the guard down," and behave like guys in a dress. But, intentional mocking of women? I haven't seen it in The Ladies that I know. Their fondest wish is to be accepted into The Club.

Nevertheless your presentation and feedback session with GG's is rather enlightening. When we do "Outreach," when questions pop-up when we encounter women. We should make it clear that we are not "mocking" women. We are "emulating" women.

Perhaps with some candid discussion, perceptions might change. I would suggest if you can find a brave soul to do it, that you get someone from Our Community to attend one of these sessions and answer questions. I've been saying for some time that one of our biggest problems is lack of visibility and failing to actually clear up a lot of mis-perceptions. Maybe if they met and actually talked with some of us, they might not think we are "mocking" women.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[RobynP]

I understand these students point-of-view because whatever exposure they have had to crossdressers, men-in-dresses, drag queens, etc. lacks the explanation of the various motivations as others have posted.

One thing not mentioned is that we dress not like women but dress according to OUR perception of how women dress. Often our perception of how women dress is way, way off... Sometimes we are not emulating women in general but specifically our fantasy woman.

For example, how many CDs like to wear garter belts and stockings? pantyhose? bare legs? I think our answers would be out of proportion to how much women like to wear garter belts, stockings, pantyhose, or bare legs... Maybe we would like the women in our life to wear a garter belt and stockings more often.

I think in the context of everything in life, I think that strip clubs and pornography in general are a LOT more degrading and more mocking of women than anything else imaginable.

Robyn P.

[beenherelongtime]

interesting, it is a shame that these women can't see that most of us do not mock women. sure some of us do the bust too much, but i don't believe it is to mock.

[Cari]

On this subject I have some frame of reference.

I saw an FTM who was a bit vulgar; Flannel shirt, swearing dirty ect. He wasnt making anything up; all those behaviors exist in the masculine world and personally I'm not really proud of men when I see them. This wasnt an over the top drag king peformance.

I wondered why he had chosen what I consider to be the worst parts of masculine behavior to emulate.

The issue is all mine; had it been a genetic male I would have ignored it. I judged him much more harshly than I would have a genetic male, it was like "I dont mind if you join the club but dont bring us down".

Im not really proud of those feelings , but its a lesson I try to take into my own dressing. I wasnt born a member, so I have to work a bit harder if I want to join, even for a very short time.

I started out thinking I had a clean slate and could create an ideal or fantasy woman. Thats the perspective I judged the FTM from. Turns out that wasnt true in my case. With very rare exceptions I havent found too many looks I could copy exactly and feel comfortable in.

For me its never been about mocking women. I dont really see it as emulating or celebrating women anymore either. These days its about my feminine side finding her own style and personality. Some days its very feminine others it much more subdued but its more "mentally" comfortable and well fun than searching for an ideal or copying something.

Cari

[sometimes_miss]

I think much of the problem is that women don't understand why we CD any more than we ourselves do. And, very often when people are feeling upset about something, there's more going on than the initial thought of why they are upset about it. With women especially, they often lash out at one thing, while actually being upset about something else.
The following are just my opinions, but perhaps food for thought.

Women seem upset for the following reasons.
They rely on men for protection; any 'feminization' of us lessens the presumption of safety for them. That upsets them to some degree.
They see our embracing beauty, and female sexuality; both things that many women think should be of much less importance to men, as they see it as 'shallow behavior'.
They get the feeling of being 'fooled'; they thought they perceived who we are, and then find they didn't really know us at all. Most women think they are very good judges of character and personality. They get upset when they find they are wrong, based on our intentionally 'deceiving' them.
For those women who are in an intimate relationship with us, it disturbs the very image of what they found sexually attractive about us, and that may destroy, or severly damage the entire relationship.

Just a few thoughts. Again, just my opinions.

[Nicki B]

I had an interesting afternoon conducting a focus group with young female students (all genetic, I presume) at the local university where I do research. My goal on this Christmas eve - to get out of home and to go talk with the students about their perspective on transgender topics.

Michelle, can you explain a little more about the frame these discussions were set in and how you presented yourself during them? Did you introduce yourself to them as trans?

What examples were talked about? Did you feel they were thinking of drag queens, or the general trans population? Do they have any experience at all of the general trans population?

[carolinoakland]

I agree on some points, and they are valid. Some CD's do dress in a way that expresses their idea of femininity. And can be viewed as offensive to a gg, hell as a TS I sometimes find myself embarressed by the expressions of femininity I've seen some walk around in, and also mad at them for making such a mockery of themselves to the point where I have actually said to one over the top CD... " You don't own a mirror, do you?"
And I try to be understanding because I know where the idea that a fifty year old CD thinks they look like the woman they see in their minds eye is the one of themselves frozen in time when they went into the closet. The female persona had been in a time capsule and thinks the while the body is fifty, the mind and the image it see's is that of a twenty year old girl. Eh, I'm rambling. I understand some of the things the women are talking about, and some of it is just jealousy. I had at least two girlfriends who couldn't stand it that I looked better than they did, should have tried to learn something from me instead of dissing me. Carol

[Toni_Lynn]

I think in the context of everything in life, I think that strip clubs and pornography in general are a LOT more degrading and more mocking of women than anything else imaginable.
Robyn P.

And --- It is because these things make objects of women that they are degrading. When we remove the the 'human-ness' from a person and make them into an object where the sole purpose is one's personal gratification we degrade that person.

I have often spoken with my wife about this sort of thing - for example how strip bars that advertise as "gentleman's clubs" are as oxymoronic as the term jumbo shrimp. A guy I work with would go to places like that when we where in Montreal on business, and it only follows that his favourite term for women was to call them b*tches. These aren't places that true gentlemen go to.

But -- back to the topic at hand . I find interesting how we are discussing making a mockery of women here and how we should avoid that, yet in a post elsewhere at this same site, there is a post announcing the appearance of one of the more outrageous drag queens around. Hey, if that's what you like, fine, but as I said before -- talk about mocking women, showing them to look like clowns -- sheesh! To me such things are as offensive as minstrel shows with white people in black face.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[ReineD]

I wonder if the GGs who participated in the focus group know there is a difference between drag queens and TGs. CDers in the media have not been portrayed accurately and perhaps the participants believe that CDers are mocking women because they believe in the stereotypes? And how many of the participants have close associations with transpersons?

I also wonder, if the GGs do believe in the stereotypes, would they want to know about the CDing before becoming involved so they could make an informed decision about pursuing the relationship?

I do not know any SOs who think their partners are attempting to mock them. It is true some of the pictures I've seen in the Gallery show CDers with unrealistic female bodies, i.e. oversized breasts and hips, but I would guess these are not the individuals who are out in the mainstream. However, I believe anyone who is familiar with the TG community will understand this is done for two reasons. The first to emulate the ideal female form, the sexy, voluptuous woman who turns heads precisely because she has a body type that is not commonly shared among the general female population. The second to perhaps over emphasize the curves as a way to counter balance the angular male body.

Attitudes change once people develop knowledge based on personal experience, both for GGs who might begin to understand a transperson's psyche as she gets to know her, and the TG who learns to perfect her style with time and practice, developing a more natural look.

[Janie Gunn]

Vivianann:

This focus group with GG's is a very good indicater of what we need to do when we crossdress in public, we need to make sure we do not make a mockery of being feminine.

I disagree with that statement.

Sarah Martin:

I don't dress to depict my view of women - I dress to please myself and satisfy the inner woman.

I think the hostile members of your focus group are missing the point...

Yep! .. They should just get over it!

I dress to satisfy myself and if I were going to dress or act in a way to satisfy others, I wouldnt be being true to myself. Its something that is non-conforming in the first place, so why conform to doing it in a way that women may want? To hell with womens expectations of us, in my opinion. It seems daft to do it that way!


Janie

[Deidra Cowen]

True Story - I was sitting at my fav bar Le Buzz a few weeks ago. Was having a fun conversation with two lesbians next to me. Suddenly one of the lesbians was looking past me and had a look of disgust on her face. I turned and saw that one of my Tgirl friends had shown up and was coming over.

My Tgirl friend had on a miniskirt, a crop top blouse and wild assesories. It really was a vivid moment where I realized how GGs can percieve us. That night I was in a long skirt, nice blouse and had my libriarian look going with da glasses and up-do. The GGs were sweet to me but instantly went on guard when the 'wild' CD showed up.

I think your focus study was on to something. One thing I notice in Atlanta. If 10 Transgirls show up at some place. At least 6 of them will be sporting a street walker type look! So we hurt ourselves I honestly believe.

Then pile on the Drag Queens and what they do and you get the perceptions that GGs might have about us.

[Janie Gunn]

Deidra, I'm one of those with a 'street walker type look' (although poor description IMO). Alot of the time I have a hooker look goin on, and the girls I've met havent shown any disaproval, (some even know me both ways), but they at least respect the way I like to dress when in feminine mode and that is what these women who are making a fuss about how some tv's dress should do. This 'mocking' thing is a load of crap.

Janie