About mocking women

[michelle2b]

I had an interesting afternoon conducting a focus group with young female students (all genetic, I presume) at the local university where I do research. My goal on this Christmas eve - to get out of home and to go talk with the students about their perspective on transgender topics.

As I expected, there were both friendly and hostile women. I don't think I need to mention about the friendly ones - they were of course friendly and curious and understanding. The hostile ones make the subject of this thread because they introduced the subject of mocking women by cross-dressing, and the friendly ones joined in once they heard the terms mocking, mockery, and other synonyms.

After a lot of drill down questioning, as focus groups should ideally do, I figured out that the women seem to object to cross-dressing due to a few specific reasons. The most prominent one was that they believe that male cross-dressers are mocking women by presenting themselves with "oversized breast forms", "inappropriate clothing", "obnoxious behavior in public", "excessive sexual overtures while dressed as women" (I am quoting these based on the audio tape that I am playing right now from the focus group). They find it deeply insulting and objectionable that men would "depict" women in this manner. Yes, they were generalizing all cross-dressing men and saying that all cross-dressing men are mocking women. After a short brainstorming about this, one of the women pointed out that if there were any men who cross-dressed as women in a non-mocking way, she has probably never noticed them because they blended in very well.

These women are seniors in college or grad students in my area which is considered very progressive and open to LGBT people. Only 1 out of the 15 women I talked with (in 2 separate groups) said anything about religion as being the primary reason for their objections to cross-dressing men. Most of them said that they "don't care" that men "occasionally cross-dress", including their current or future boyfriends and husbands. They mentioned different reasons for their state of acceptance or tolerance of cross-dressing men. Most of them "need to know before getting emotionally involved" with a male who cross-dresses. Most of them denied that their boyfriends or husbands will ever cross-dress. I did not go too deep into their opinions about their current mates because I noticed in the facial expressions of a few women that they were uncomfortable with making the discussion too personal.

Of course, my findings cannot be extrapolated to the opinions of all women. I do not have statistically significant data to make any generalizations.

However, the point about mockery stood out very clearly as the most common opinion among all these women. At the end, none of them said that they did not feel mocked by cross-dressing males.

I am posting this to convey my findings from the women I met today.

[Alice Torn]

Very interestimg.

[jina]

I attended Oberlin college briefly (in Ohio). A very liberal school.. the kind where code topics like "women's studies" are prevalent (at least were at that time in the 80's).

This perspective does not surprise me at all. I remember going to see "It's a Wonderful Life" at the tiny little movie theater while there,.. and a lot of the women in the theater hissed and booed derisively when Jimmy Stewart's wife is shown as an "old maid - school marm type".. because he hadn't been born to marry her. I really don't think that the writers of the movie meant to suggest that she would be *nothing* without him... rather that the town without him would have been a hardened corrupt place where not much good flourishes (including an otherwise wonderful woman).

I have thought about posting a particular thread / subject here on CD.com, but I have been reluctant to raise a controversial possibility (also I would be afraid that it would misrepresent my underlying motives for CDing as well).

But anyway,... the thought is: Is CDing a pendulum swing (or a yin / yang attempt to balance) the bra-burning side of the feminist movement that came before ? Some women see the side of femininity that *we celebrate* as worthy of contempt and loathing. Maybe they *have* to see CDers motives as negative and ugly, so that they don't have to come to terms with the destruction of a birthright that has been (by many) tossed over the edge of a cliff. On this I feel that many women were deceived. I had a conversation with a very free thinking GG at work the other day where she basically said this.

Many people know the word misogyny. Few know it's counterpart misandry (in fact, the spell check doesn't recognize it). I think that writing off someone who was born male, expressing themselves as female (and in their own chosen way), and then saying that they are most likely mocking women,.. is self flattery, certainly self-centered, and more likely than not an expression of misandry at it's heart.

I drove a taxi for a while and took some college students home one night. A young woman in the back seat was kinda belligerent. Her guy friends were very nicely encouraging her to lighten up. She started going on about "what are relationships for anyway". When it got quiet I offered the perspective that ideally, relationships can eventually serve as a safe environment for the raising of children. Her reply was "so, I'm just a baby factory then" ? I have a hard time understanding the hostility necessary to generate a statement like that (a tragic family of origin story there perhaps).

For me, raising kids, keeping home fires burning and trying to look nice in the process would be a wonderful life. How that was ever made to look ugly and demeaning is beyond me.

[vivianann]

This focus group with GG's is a very good indicater of what we need to do when we crossdress in public, we need to make sure we do not make a mockery of being feminine. it has been my experience that how I dress, boobs proportionate with my body, makup done properly, and how I act goes along way to gaining the respect and support from GG's that I encounter when I am crossdressed. I like the feedback the GG's gave you in your focus group study, we need to take lessons from what the GG's said. I get alot of compliments from GG's becase of how I present myself when out enfemme, I do not pass, however I am accepted as I am because I do not over exagerate the female image, I also like the advice I get from GG's on how to look the part as best I can.

[Anna the Dub]

Well, if we are quite honest, a lot of CDs do portray an unrealistic form of femininity, one that is out of step with the vast majority of modern day women. There is nothing wrong with that, but a lot of women will be offended by it. As Vivianann said above, we need to be careful how we portray ourselves so that we can't be perceived to be mocking women. I, myself, dress age appropriately, dress down a lot too (wear ladies jeans a lot, instead of skirts all the time), subtle make up, etc. I don't want to portray an idealised female, I just want to express myself as I feel inside, and I have to say the positive responses I have had from GGs tell me I am getting something right.

[Shari]

Michelle, I want to thank you for the amount of brain stimulation your post has provided me.
This is something that will take me awhile to fully digest before I can provide an intelligent response.
So the mindset is primarily mocking women?!?
Hmmmm.
They don't know us very well.
They don't know us at all.

[Babette]

Michelle,

Do you have any insights to their background such as rural vs. urban, which part of the country they came from, religion, generational differences, etc.

Babette

[Jonianne]

.......At the end, none of them said that they did not feel mocked by cross-dressing males........

Are you saying at the end, they all came away saying they felt mocked by cd'ers?

That is sad. I think most of us just want to identify with women in certain aspects of our lives, not make fun of them at all. I hold women's feminity as sacred, not to the point of worshiping, but of the utmost respect. I tread very lightly in choosing the type of female image I wish to reflect in myself.

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

[LACD]

I don't dress to mock GG's. I try to look the most fem that I can, though I know it's not to close. My Dear Wife and I have had many long talks over the past three years, and she realizes I don't dress to mock anybody. I would love to look more womanly but I work with what I have. My Dear Wife has really helped me get in tune with my femme side and dress so I don't look frumpy. I don't know any other CD's, I just know how I feel myself.

[Angie G]

That's interesting thank God my wife dosen't seem to be one of them.
Angie

[deja true]

Thought provoking, indeed!

It occurs to me that many of us do tend to exagerate the physical qualities that appeal to us the most... It's an individual thing and, of course, we don't all present as caricatures of women, but, yes, some do...

Performing drag queens obviously do...that's their style... and quite possibly their motivation, too.

But the rest of us need to heed this message, and in conversations with our GG friends and new GG acquaintances, maybe this would be a good topic of conversation. To get a message of admiration and love across, rather than mockery...

[Intertwined]

This may be why I have never had a bad or derogatory comment from a female, not only do I not exagerate the feminine, I do not try to pass as female, when I do dress, I usually dress 50/50 feminine/masculine.

Here is an example of what I went Christmas shopping last night (yes Christmas eve). No femine undergarments of any type, mens sweater, ladies white button up blouse, denim skirt, black patent high heels, no makeup or wig, black fingernails, black purse with cherries on it.

[yms]

To be honest, I sympathize with these women.

What I found when I spent alot of time in the CDing community meeting other CDers was how many of them didn't like women. I knew one person who was transitioning and was so hostile towards her ex-wife that she once said to me that her ex was the kind of woman who needed to be slapped around to keep her in line.

I have often felt that CDing and transgenderism itself sometimes presents itself as an attempt by men to co-op womanhood - men defining what it means to be a woman. Too often, however, it is done in a superficial and objectifying manner.

While I agree that the group is a small sample, it certainly points the way.

Thank you, Michelle, for sharing this.


Yvonne

[Sara Jessica]

I have often felt that CDing and transgenderism itself sometimes presents itself as an attempt by men to co-op womanhood - men defining what it means to be a woman. Too often, however, it is done in a superficial and objectifying manner.

I have heard it expressed in a similar way Yvonne, that being born male gives us "male privilege" and that we try to keep that firmly in hand while expressing our femininity (again, often seen as expression in an objectifying manner). This trying to take something that we are perceived as having no right to can be seen as threatening.

[TGMarla]

As one who's interaction with the CD and transgender community is limited pretty much to this forum, and who has little interaction as a crossdresserwith the outside world, I can only speak for my own point of view. I have never tried to mock women in any way as a crossdresser. Quite to the contrary, I try to present myself as a woman as best I can. I try to be tasteful in my clothing, and meticulous in my presentation and with my hair and makeup. I do the best I can, and I have never meant any mockery or denegration in any way. It's a shame that many women may see it this way, but it's really not a surprise. Women have been largely objectified in our society as sex objects, while their mental and personal attributes have been over looked. Who needs a brain when a nice pair of tits will do, after all?

So there is one more hurdle for us to overcome. It is a hard one, too, since some CDs really do dress in mockery of women, wearing overly sexual clothing, oversized breasts, and presenting themselves as sex toys. Hopefully, women in general will come to see that not all of us are in it to portray that image, but rather, emulate women out of a need to express an inner femininity and out of admiration for a sector of humanity that often reflects what is best in us rather than what is worst.

[Toni_Lynn]

The most prominent one was that they believe that male cross-dressers are mocking women by presenting themselves with "oversized breast forms", "inappropriate clothing", "obnoxious behavior in public", "excessive sexual overtures while dressed as women"

This is most understandable and to my mind speaks of why we as CDers are at times our own worst enemies. I too find such things to be objectionable.

This us why despair of people like RuPaul and the more outrageous people in the drag queen scene. I feel they not only make a mockery of women , but also of us as CDers who are, shall we say, garden variety. This is not the public face we need, yet we as a group more often than not embrace them gladly. Shame on us.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[JoAnne Wheeler]

I think we crossdress to honor females - I never thought of it as mockery. How do they like like wearing slacks, sweat shirts, ties, etc. Are they mocking men ? I feel that the majority of my soul is femine and I do not feel that I am mocking myself.
JoAnne Wheeler

[Sue Too]

Merry Christmas----- I'm so glad somebody finally said it. I totally understand what these women were talking about when they said they felt CD's were mocking them.

When you think about it CD's that venture out in public come in two flavors. Those that pass or almost pass and those that don't. Those that do, probably dress to blend in and pass through the world largely undetected. Those that don't are the ones that these women feel are mocking them.

How would you feel if you were a well adjusted GG in a grocery store line and you see an individual in femme jeans---with a 40DD bra showing through his T shirt---- and a male haircut ----and a two day growth of beard. I would be darned offended. I know this happens--I've heard it described here on this forum.

I know there are those that say it is their right to dress as they want, and I guess it is, but the world does not work that way. Stop living in your own selfish little world and think what your actions are doing to the rest of the CD community.

Life as a CD is difficult enough without a few inconsiderate sisters gumming up the works. Whatever you do, try to do it with dignity.

Girls, I FEEL BETTER. Thank you Michelle for helping me get my soap box out of the closet. I said it and I am glad!!

Susan in Phoenix
56 and rainy

[Kate Simmons]

I believe it's all a matter of perspective really. Nothing is ever accomplished when people generalize things anyway. We could say the same thing, that women are "mocking" men when they wear clothing considered traditionally male(although mostly these days, we wouldn't be taken seriously). Some folks, whether men or women, seem to want it both ways as it suits them and make blanket statements concerning others rather than attempting to get to know them for who they are as people. As far as DQ's, one should expect exaggeration as the spirit of it , expecially a drag show, is usually somewhat "camp" to begin with.

[gennee]

[SIZE="3"]I was brought up to respect women. I crossdress partially out of respect for them. I dress age appropriate and I don't wear anything that I normally would not. I see some of the hostility and understand it up to a point.

I also sense that some of the hsotility may be the result of what the roles of men and women actually are. Sadly, society sends out many mixed signals about masculinity and femininity. I enjoy being a husband and father just as much and I enjoy being a cd.

Gennee[/SIZE]

[Alice Torn]

Jina, Amen! Especially what you wrote about throwing birthright over the cliff.

Just one more comment. Your last few lines, Jina, about family of origin affecting gg attitudes about being in safe relationship, and being mothers, looking nice. It is tragic, but true, that a vast number of people, me included, and gg's have father issues, and have been unable to have healthy close relationships with opposite sex. With gg's i see it over and over, again. Having an alienated relationship with my father, I understand, some, but so many, stay in denial, won't deal with their own issues, stuff, hide, deny, and instead point fingers at others. It is a difficult thing about human nature.

[serinalynn]

I however want to portray myself as a respectable woman and not demean or demorlize any woman or what women stand for.

[Sarah Martin]

I don't dress to depict my view of women - I dress to please myself and satisfy the inner woman.

I think the hostile members of your focus group are missing the point...

[jina]

Those were long thoughts I was trying to express,.. heartfelt too. I was glad to see them resonate with someone. I would have had to take up a whole thread page to really make my point (and who's going to read that !)

Yes,.. relationships with fathers are certainly a factor. I have discovered recently that what i thought were certain unusual personality quirks in some of my relatives, are probably actually some form of autism. My dad was completely emotionless and vulcan-like when I was growing up... I naturally emulated my mother (because I am a very emotional and feeling person). Since my brother's and nephew's diagnosis with autism,.. I'm realizing that my dad most likely has this too. He had no empathy whatsoever back in the day (he's been working on this in his old age to his credit).

All of that aside; a point that I was trying to make in the post above was that in a University setting, you probably have a much higher percentage of young women that might be buying in to the feminist philosophies of the past just out of some kind of "wanting to matter" motivation. Might be interfering with just seeing "people as people". It can be a funky kind of reverse sexism in my opinion. IE: Don't make us women doll up for you *men* (dirty word). And then: "wait a minute... you can't wear our clothes !". Why not,.. you co-opted men's in the name of your own need for self expression !? If yin and yang are true principles,.. the difference has to be made up somewhere.

I genuinely would have liked to have been born female. I feel I would have been very good at it in all of the best ways (I care nothing for so-called male privilege). I feel the feminist movement left a sad vacuum in the western world in this regard. It's not about mocking,.. it's about expressing legitimate feelings of inner beauty. On the other hand, bad taste is bad taste no matter which side of the gender equation you're on.

[Sophia de la luz]

Now, I appreciate the interest in "passing" or being true to one's inner woman. I enoy dressing in ways that really raise little attention in terms out of the ordinary. I like current styles and dress my age.
That said, I think it's perfectly fine for some folks to dress with oversized titties, or whatever else they feel like. And if some of them are consciously mocking the hyper sexed feminine in this culture, that's ok too.
Mockery is a great opener sometimes. Sometimes it's necessary to get down to the real issues when folks have their egos taking things so seriously.
Let's not forget, it's only clothing.