Lies or Deceit

[Nigella]

This is likely to be a contentious thread, please keep it civil, remember everyone is entitled to their opinion.

There is no end of threads and posts regarding the lying surrounding crossdressing. The biggest area is about "not telling the SO" and how this is lying to them.

Well to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I don't believe that the CD'er is lying if they do not tell their SO.

Now before you burst a blood vessel, how can you lie about something that the other person does not know about? If you do not tell you surely are deceiving rather than lying.

To give an untruthful answer is lying, but to give an answer you have to have a question.

[Vicki65]

Technically you're correct, but surely deceit is pretty much the same thing in a trusting relationship?

What if your SO asks you outright if you've been wearing her skirts, and you say "no dear, of course not!" - does it go from deceit to lie at that point? If so, I fail to see the difference. Both are dishonest, and my SO deserves better.

Contentious? You? Never!

[ReneeCD]

Nigella.

Semantically, you are correct.

If your SO doesn't already know, then you are deceiving them.

If they come right out and ask you, "Are you a crossdresser?" and you reply, "No". then you are lying.

But I think the two are very similar. Both are ways of being dishonest with your SO. If what you desire is an open, transparent relationship, talk with your spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend about yourself. Believe me, after two failed marriages (I told both of my crossdressing BEFORE we were married), absolute honesty is best. I'm now in a relationship lasting more than three years in which my SO knows ALL about Renee--and likes what she sees! Problems occurred in my marriages because my SOs were NOT honest with me about their real feelings concerning my crossdressing (both felt that they could "change" me). Honesty, even when it hurts, is really the best policy. I'm not talking about cruelty.

Renee

[Di]

I feel the not telling is deceit....but the byproduct to cover up the crossdressing there often are lies with the intention of maintaining the secret.

[Sandra]

IMHO both cause problems.

[Melinda G]

There is no end of threads and posts regarding the lying surrounding crossdressing. The biggest area is about "not telling the SO" and how this is lying to them.

Lieing is telling someone something that is not true. Period.

For every wife or SO who accepts crossdressing, a dozen do not! Women have plenty of secrets, that they keep from men. That's a fact!
Crossdressing is something that is best kept to ones self. And if you cannot bear the guilt, and have to "come out" to your wife or employer, all the "You go girl"s and the "truth and honesty squad", won't be much comfort when you wind up in divorce court, and lose your home and kids, or wind up unemployed.
Don't take my word for it. Go back and count all the sad stories of those who came out, and wound up divorced! They are right here for all to see. Just do your homework. Want to gamble? Go to Vegas.

There is no need to lie. If your wife asked you if you tried on her skirt. Just say yeah. I wondered what it felt like, and drop it right there. That's not lieing. No need to go into a big song and dance how crossdressing is a huge part of your life, that is more important than her, and you could never give it up, show photos, blah blah blah.

[Sheila]

in my first relationship with a cdr, I asked questions surrounding certain activities but as he said to me "you did not ask if I was a crossdresser" technically he was right I did not use the words " are you a CDR" , but I asked questions around the area

Technically he lied and lied some more

[Holly]

One source I read has this to say about lying by omission...

"One lies by omission by omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. A husband may tell his wife he was out at a store, which is true, but lie by omitting the fact that he also visited his mistress, although it is disputable whether or not this is actually a lie. In most cases, the person has not directly denied a truth, but merely omitted some part of what transpired."

The bottom line is that either by omission or by outright misdirection, being less than honest with an SO increases the risk of discord 1000%.

[TerriM]

I told my wife after about 10yrs of marriage, we are married 37yrs now. the biggest relief to me was that I didnt have to lie anymore to her. All the times I would go out and get dressed I would tell her a lie. I was going to a hockey game or going to work and I had really taken off. Now when I go out I tell her Im going out with my friends, she knows what that means. It's not perfect, but it is much better than when I had to lie.

Yours Terri

[Di]

Lieing is telling someone something that is not true. Period.
Don't take my word for it. Go back and count all the sad stories of those who came out, and wound up divorced! They are right here for all to see. Just do your homework. Want to gamble? Go to Vegas.

I do not agree AT all.........from the hundreds of s o's I know....there might be shock at first BUT THE LIES AND DECEIT is what is the hardest thing to get over for them.And unless there are other major problems in the relationship it gets worked out.

[Vicki65]

Melinda, I dont think your argument holds water.

What if your wife came in and found you in full makeup, breastforms, and fully dressed? "Just wondering what it felt like" wont cut it - or if it does, then your wife already knows and doesn't care! (or is a bit dim)

Why not fess up BEFORE you get in so deep you're married with house and kids?

Your angle seems to be deceit is OK if it keeps you out of divorce court?

Sorry, I'm one of the 'truth and honesty' squad, and KNOW 100% that my wife is completely truthful and honest with me. I'm glad about that because I'd hate to be in the cynical position of thinking 'all women hide things from you' as you seem to be suggesting.

[Sandra]

I do not agree AT all.........from the hundreds of s o's I know....there might be shock at first BUT THE LIES AND DECEIT is what is the hardest thing to get over for them.And unless there are other major problems in the relationship it gets worked out.

This is true Di.

I've said this before and I'll say it again it's not the cding but the lies and deceit that cause the most problems. But for some lying and deceiving seem to be second nature, it's as if they get a thrill out of it.

[onowic]

Since I did not crossdress before we were married, and was fully honest and upfront with my SO as much as she would let me during these initial stages of this process, I can say I have been totally honest with her about it.

That being said, we have a very strong and committed relationship and she is normally a very understanding and quite liberal person. However it has caused a level of discord between us that has quite frankly never occurred before and we even had a major fight/discussion Monday night about it. In the process a lot of other things came out, as they tend to do in conversations of that nature. In the end it was a healthy conversation and we are the better for it. But I also believe we are somewhat exceptional in our level of communication, acceptance and commitment to each other and while this latest turn of events is testing that theory so far it has only been reaffirmed.

I have read many life stories and most of them involve anguish, heartbreak and divorce. The state of divorce and child custody in our country today, where the wife/mother can reasonably expect to be treated favorably and has the most leverage when it comes to financial matters and child custody, and the husband/father almost always ends up on the losing side. In the case of a CDer the CDer is garaunteed to lose in any court. This effectively means men are the ones that are held hostage in today's modern marriages. Assuming they value their children of course.

To simply say that a CDer is lying or being deceitful to their SO by hiding their CDing greatly oversimplifies a serious decision with even more serious consequences. The simple corallary to the "lie" is that the CDer is protecting their status and relationship within the family while coping with their personal needs and the needs of the SO and family, a both neccessary and honorable thing to do and usually a very difficult and stressful task.

Again, I am totally honest and upfront with my SO, as much as she will let me. Having no information on other peoples relationships with their SOs and the beliefs and personalities of their SOs, I defer to the CDers more intimate knowledge of their SO in their own decision making process and support them in their difficult task if they decide to maintain their subterfuge.

[cindym5_04]

After I dated this one woman who while we were together figured it out and flat out asked "are you a crossdresser?", I figured that honesty would be the best policy. My next girlfriend already knew (her roomie was a cd and she met me when I came over and "dressed" for dinner as a show of support of the roomie coming out to her) when we got together. The woman who is now my wife, had been a friend of mine for many years, but didn't know. As we started to get closer to each other, but before we actually dated, I came out to her. She thought it was kind of hot (I think she's past that now though ). I just figured it'd be more fair to whoever I'm with for them to know as well as less stress to me to have to try and cover up anything.

[JulieK1980]

I really wish that more Crossdressers would stop trying to make up excuses for why its ok to not tell your so about it. Ultimately its why we carry the stigma of being selfish. Quite frankly its never ok to lie to your spouse period end of story. People can argue about it all day long, but in the end its a lie, and its a BIG lie at that. The only real solution to a problem is honesty. Arguing the semantics of definition between deceit and lies is a pointless argument. I doubt many wives would be comforted by pointing out the websters dictionary definition of it. I guess its a generational difference, as it seems more people my age and younger tell our partners in the dating stage, but that doesn't excuse the older people who are married for 30+ years and don't tell their partner.

Think of it like this, if you never asked your wife if she was faithfull, and you found out she was cheating on you. Would you be comforted that she never outright lied about it.

So remember its ok and you can't be mad. She didn't lie she decieved you.

Sorry but this particular topic just irritates the crap out of me.

[Rachaelb64]

To lie is to deceive. To deceive is to lie.

You can not lie without deceiving.

Half truths, white lies, call them what you like, we all do them.

However, something as important as being a crossdresser, you shouldn't lie about.

[onowic]

Think of it like this, if you never asked your wife if she was faithfull, and you found out she was cheating on you. Would you be comforted that she never outright lied about it.

So remember its ok and you can't be mad. She didn't lie she decieved you.

Sorry but this particular topic just irritates the crap out of me.

That makes sense if you correlate CDing with cheating, which doesn't make any sense to me. And yet adultery is far more likely to get a pass from society than CDing, go figure.

I hear your points that, all things being equal, a lie is a lie. But all things are not equal and there being so much at stake, I don't see how anyone can make judgements about someone else's decision regarding CDing and their relationship.

And as far as the inherent subterfuge felt neccessary by some giving all CDers a bad name, any given CDer is far more likely to get understanding and support from coming out at work then coming out to friends and family, and yet how many of you who have told your SOs are out at work? And if you are in the closet at your work for your SOs benefit, isn't that just another excuse against the "Out and Proud" line of thinking?

[PheonaP]

Which ever words you care to use, be it LIES or DECEIT, both words can be embraced in one other word - DISHONESTY.
DISHONESTY in any relationship is like a timebomb. Just when you least expect it, it will explode in your face and YOU WILL GET HURT.
Unfortunately, in most cases, lots of other people get caught in the blast and aftershock and they get hurt too.

[Tess]

Lieing is telling someone something that is not true. Period.

For every wife or SO who accepts crossdressing, a dozen do not! Women have plenty of secrets, that they keep from men. That's a fact!
Crossdressing is something that is best kept to ones self. And if you cannot bear the guilt, and have to "come out" to your wife or employer, all the "You go girl"s and the "truth and honesty squad", won't be much comfort when you wind up in divorce court, and lose your home and kids, or wind up unemployed.
Don't take my word for it. Go back and count all the sad stories of those who came out, and wound up divorced! They are right here for all to see. Just do your homework. Want to gamble? Go to Vegas.

There is no need to lie. If your wife asked you if you tried on her skirt. Just say yeah. I wondered what it felt like, and drop it right there. That's not lieing. No need to go into a big song and dance how crossdressing is a huge part of your life, that is more important than her, and you could never give it up, show photos, blah blah blah.

The voice of sanity...I couldn't agree more!

[windycissy]

For every wife or SO who accepts crossdressing, a dozen do not! Women have plenty of secrets, that they keep from men. That's a fact! Crossdressing is something that is best kept to ones self. And if you cannot bear the guilt, and have to "come out" to your wife or employer, all the "You go girl"s and the "truth and honesty squad", won't be much comfort when you wind up in divorce court, and lose your home and kids, or wind up unemployed. Don't take my word for it. Go back and count all the sad stories of those who came out, and wound up divorced! They are right here for all to see. Just do your homework. Want to gamble? Go to Vegas.

Amen! I have no quarrel with those who have told their SO's about their crossdressing, indeed I respect and admire them...where we part company is in the obsessive need of some to goad others into living up to their high standards, blithely oblivious to the potential for irreversible harm to real human beings and families. It's one thing if you actually know the people in their lives, but to preach to strangers about such an intimate decision is baffling to me.

[abundantly_me]

I think the subject brought up, not telling one's SO would definitely fall into this category.

Sins of OMISSION

it is in what we fail to do that we become the 'sinner', and if you fail to do the right thing, does that make you any better of a person for being that way?

Just a thought - and ps sorry, those 12 years of going to a Catholic school just makes me want to say this.

[Nigella]

Please do not take this thread into a discussion on whether you should tell or not. It is not discuss the merits of either argument. This thread is about the technicality of deceit or lies. It could be about any "secret", however, as this is a TG site, it seemed logical to use telling an SO as an example.

If you want to discuss the merits of sharing your other life or not, please start a new thread. Thank You

[onowic]

I couldn't agree more that young people today have less to fear and more to expect from their SOs. My SO and I had a discussion along these lines, that we are a younger generation, inherently more liberal and accepting of transgender people, and while I understand how it can hurt and be confusing there is no good reason for me not to be open about it with her.

HOWEVER because CDing is still looked down on by society in general, if not in the extreme, I am required to remain in the closet, per HER request, both for work, extended family, and our friends. I also have to hide it from the children, lest they "let it slip".

But we have a lot of conservative friends of our generation that their SOs would absolutely flip out if their husbands were CDers and came out to them. Those are the same people my wife would be concerned about if they found out I was doing it.

No one here has the moral authority to push someone else to out themselves to their SOs, ESPECIALLY considering the damage it could do to their relationship. The individual concerned is the best person to make that call.

[Kelli Michelle]

Lying or deceit...doesn't matter. Like others have said, they imply dishonesty and both have a negative connotations. Specifically, deceit implies "imposing a false belief that causes, ignorance, bewilderment, or helplessness." Is that really that much better than "lying"?

Note, I am not casting stones at anyone who is either deceitful or lying about their cding. Clearly, while I believe, personally, that honesty is the best policy, I know how difficult it can be to be honest about this to your wife, s.o, or family and friends.

[Beth-Lock]

Is keeping a secret lying? Well, maybe that depends on the transaction the person is entering into. If straight women did not lie about all manner of things, big and small, when entering a relationship, the world would certainly be a different place than it is now. (Would using makeup be considered as lying?)
The question of concealing something to do with gender identity, would, if it is considered a lie, mean that presenting oneself as one gender, yet having some 'legal defect' or qualification concealed yet present in it, is a violation of the implied statement you make by presenting yourself as implicitly straight. Does this mean you have to present yourself so what you see is what you get?
The traditional cure for this is getting to know someone really well before you get involved much with them, but today, we are in such a hurry and think we know better anyway. Haste not only makes waste but offers a protection or shelter for the lies of others. That way we act as enablers, perhaps in some sort of co-dependency.