Lies or Deceit

[onowic]

Taking CDing out of it, you still can't say all withhodling of information is deceit and therefore bad. I worked with a special needs little girl (kindergarden) with a genetic disease that she would absolutely die from before she reached the third grade and noone ever told her she was going to die young, it would have been cruel to do so.

In the real world with all it's complicating variables and factors, each unique to the individual circumstance, it is logially impossible for the policy of truth to always be the best policy.

[Sheila]

Sorry but I believe withholding such a huge part of yourself you are lying ......... be it by omission or avoidance .............. if you do not tell your partner something that can have such a huge impact on your relationship once discovered or revealed years later, that it is dishonesty in my book .... rightly or wrongly it is the way I view it

[trisha59]

There is a difference. To illustrate in a very basic way:
If carry around a Porsche key chain to make people believe I own a Porsche. This would be a deception.
If they ask me if I own a Porsche And I said yes. This would be a lie.
Now is either one a lesser sin. I guess it depends on the deception and lie. Sorry if this isn't much help

[JoAnne Wheeler]

Are you the speech writer for Bill Clinton ??? It is still being less than HONEST.

JoAnne Wheeler

[JulieK1980]

That makes sense if you correlate CDing with cheating, which doesn't make any sense to me. And yet adultery is far more likely to get a pass from society than CDing, go figure.

I hear your points that, all things being equal, a lie is a lie. But all things are not equal and there being so much at stake, I don't see how anyone can make judgements about someone else's decision regarding CDing and their relationship.

And as far as the inherent subterfuge felt neccessary by some giving all CDers a bad name, any given CDer is far more likely to get understanding and support from coming out at work then coming out to friends and family, and yet how many of you who have told your SOs are out at work? And if you are in the closet at your work for your SOs benefit, isn't that just another excuse against the "Out and Proud" line of thinking?

You can insert whatever life altering lie or deception you want in place of infidelity, but irregardless the people you are "protecting" are being led to believe you are someone you are not. As for the at work, or at home coming out. Quite frankly your significant other needs to know because they MARRIED you. Telling your coworkers, unless you are planning to go to work dressed isn't a priority. But not telling the person who loves you (at least the part of you they actually know) is as a betrayal of vows and trust. I don't see how I could even compare my wife to a co-worker, in the same category. Now I do understand their is a generation gap, and being in my late 20's means I grew up in a different time, but a lie is a lie. People say they don't hurt the ones they love by not telling them, really DID hurt them when they agreed to marry them, and weren't honest then. As for telling them years into a marriage, well thankfully I had enough forethought not to put myself in that position, so I can not judge or relate.

Now as to the topic of the thread, (which I misinterpreted.) I don't think there is a difference between deceit and a lie, they are both detrimental either in the short term or the long term.

[Vicki65]

To answer the original question now it's been clarified, IMO, deceit becomes a lie once you are questioned about your deceit and deny it.

That's a bit simplistic though.

Many many years ago, when married to a previous partner, I had an affair. I didn't own up, and she didn't know, therfore it was just deceit, which according to another thread today 'is kind of ok'.

Suspicions were aroused once or twice, which I denied, so now I was in the realm of lying. Then my ex wife found out...

I have never seen someone so totally destroyed, and now, 12 years down the line I still lie awake some nights hating myself for what I did.

Wouldn't your SO finding out for sure about your CDing after you lying to her for years (denying it when questioned) have a similar impact on the trust in your relationship? (Sorry for straying off topic)

BTW, I'm a changed man, and as you know from other threads, I would never lie, or withold secrets from my current partner because I've lived through the mess and pain it causes.

[Jacqui]

Reading through this thread, I am amazed at all of the honest, deceitless people who have no secrets at all with their SO's on any subject whatsoever.

If everyone was as honest as they claimed, the world would be such a lovely place. My question is, why would you want to limit all of this beautiful honesty to your wives or SO's. Why don't you all go out right now and tell everyone? Your family, your friends, your employers/employees? What do you have to lose? Is it ok if you are honest to your wife but a fraud to the rest of the world?

Lies, deceit, dishonesty, sins of omission....what other negative aspersions do you want to throw at us?

Here's a question: How many of you who told your SO's either before the relationship or after, that not only do you like to wear women's clothing, but sometime in the future, you hope to change your sex to female? Or, you've always wished that you were born a woman? And quite frankly, when you made love to her, you imagined yourself as the woman?

To those who answer: "Ooooh, I did, because I'm so honest!," I would just like to know what your SO's reaction was.

Thanks,
Jacqui

[JulieK1980]

Reading through this thread, I am amazed at all of the honest, deceitless people who have no secrets at all with their SO's on any subject whatsoever.

If everyone was as honest as they claimed, the world would be such a lovely place. My question is, why would you want to limit all of this beautiful honesty to your wives or SO's. Why don't you all go out right now and tell everyone? Your family, your friends, your employers/employees? What do you have to lose? Is it ok if you are honest to your wife but a fraud to the rest of the world?

Lies, deceit, dishonesty, sins of omission....what other negative aspersions do you want to throw at us?

Here's a question: How many of you who told your SO's either before the relationship or after, that not only do you like to wear women's clothing, but sometime in the future, you hope to change your sex to female? Or, you've always wished that you were born a woman? And quite frankly, when you made love to her, you imagined yourself as the woman?

To those who answer: "Ooooh, I did, because I'm so honest!," I would just like to know what your SO's reaction was.

Thanks,
Jacqui

I didn't tell my wife any of those things. Simply because I don't plan on transitioning. Sorry your argument falls flat, telling your family and work is different than you WIFE Last I checked I'm not intimate with my boss. No comparison. As for my kids, when they are a little older I will tell them. Of course I don't have the same morals as you do. If you are going to be intimate with someone, they NEED to know who YOU are. Period. If you trust someone enough to sleep with them, then you should trust them enough to tell them who you are. Sorry in this modern day and age not telling your significant other really is inexcusable. This is not 1955 its 2009 the world is different, but a lot of people here wouldn't know, because they are to busy hiding in their closet to know. Again just my opinion on it. If your ok with living a lie well good for you.

[TGMarla]

It seems that everyone here is correct when counting technicalities. Sure, not telling one's SO in deceiving. Such situations are also referred to as 'lies of omission'. So call it what you will, it is what it is.

There can be no doubt that honesty is the best policy, but there is a long sad line of failed relationships due to crossdressing. Others, thankfully, have survived it. Some, a few, have even thrived with it. But it's real easy for someone who is or who has an accepting SO to sit on high and preach to others that they should disclose this to their wives or girlfriends when they are not in that person's situation. Sometimes one has little choice but to keep this to oneself. This is not for others to judge.

It's too bad that it has to be this way, but we should remember that all situations are different, and that fear of the loss of a loved one is a powerful argument as well.

[Jacqui]

I didn't tell my wife any of those things. Simply because I don't plan on transitioning. Sorry your argument falls flat, telling your family and work is different than you WIFE Last I checked I'm not intimate with my boss. No comparison. As for my kids, when they are a little older I will tell them. Of course I don't have the same morals as you do. If you are going to be intimate with someone, they NEED to know who YOU are. Period. If you trust someone enough to sleep with them, then you should trust them enough to tell them who you are. Sorry in this modern day and age not telling your significant other really is inexcusable. This is not 1955 its 2009 the world is different, but a lot of people here wouldn't know, because they are to busy hiding in their closet to know. Again just my opinion on it. If your ok with living a lie well good for you.

Jody, here's some news for you. Whether or not you are intimate doesn't hide the fact that you are deceitful to those in your family, those who employ you and pay your salary, and those you have pretentious friendships with. How many of them would drop you like the plague if they only knew your little secret. As for your children, isn't it the same thing? Aren't you emotionally close with them? The longer you wait, Jodi, the more you have deceived them. The father they thought they knew and loved was living a lie all the while. Will they be devastated when they find out? Or do you think that their minds will be so wide open that they will wholeheartedly accept the fact that Daddy likes to present himself as a woman? And will you put them at risk from ridicule if word slips out? At what age will you wait before you tell them? Or have you not decided that yet?

It's very nice to be able to write one's set of rules and then to tell others it is the only way to live. It shows a tremendous "understanding" on your part. Put everyone in the same box and then lecture them on what works for you.
Do you go about insulting people who happened to have been born prior to you? I'm hoping you have some respect for your parents who might have been born in those terrible, terrible 1950's, or even worse, the '60's.

Do you know that for many of us OLDer CD's, the urges grow with age rather than abate. How you feel now is not how you'll feel when you reach the ripe old age of 32. And then 42... and then 52. Start your own thread and find out if this is true. Perhaps when you reach 40, you will regret that you didn't transition. And then you will be faced with the prospect of tellling your wife that CD'ing doesn't cut it anymore. Be careful she doesn't come back at you and ask why you didn't tell her that at the time you got married. Only time will tell.

It's amazing that your youth hides Experience and at the same time gives you a cloak of morals that only applies to you and nobody else. I do not mean to flame you, but for you to sit there in your own circumstances and pass judgment on anybody is like living in a glass house.

Be careful because one little pebble is all it takes.

I will not further my comments here, so feel free to get in the last words.
You will have to live with them, not I.

Jacqui

[trisha11]

I disagree.
I think that any sort of secret rather it be about crossdressing or about smoking or drinking or what ever is a lie, not only to yourself but to others. I understand your point but I wish that I could be more truthful about my crossdressing. I feel that telling the truth about your crossdressing with your SO is the best approach. I have learned this the hard way......I am now divorced after my Exwife round out....I have since come out to my new SO and thankfully she has accepted. I just believe what my parents use to tell me as a kid, the truth know matter how difficult and hard it may be is the best approach.
trisha

[StephanieH]

[SIZE="3"]Not being judgemental here, but the point of the original post seems to be, "I'm not lying, I'm just not telling the truth." It's wordplay. Omission of information, when it's important to your wife or SO is living a lie, not just telling one. This is a path to being alone in the long run.

Take care and God bless.[/SIZE]

[Suzy Harrison]

Mmmm - It's like saying it's okay to murder someone if the body is never found.

[Melinda G]

You want to talk about honest! I've been single for 29 years now, and I have a lot of single friends, male and female. And I've seen a lot of them get married and divorced over the years. And I've lost count of all the guys who married seemingly nice women, only to find out they were in debt up to their eyeballs, or had a kid in prison, or had a drug habit, or were bi-polar, or mentally unstable. All of which was carefully concealed until after the wedding. So all you truth and honesty folks go ahead and do what you think is best. You are the ones who have to live with the consequences of your decisions. And I'll do likewise! Live your life anyway you want, and don't tell me how to live mine!

[KimberlyS]

Nigella I agree with your difference of a lie and deceit. And often there can be a fine line between the two. But it does not matter if it is a lie or a deceit they will most of the time be treated the same within a relationship by the other partner as both are not truthful. Neither leads to good open communication within a relationship.

[DonnaT]

Well, there's out and out lying, in your face, and then there's deceit (lying by omission).

Both are dishonest, but not necessarily equally ranking in "sin".

What if your partner wasn't as good at sex as a previous partner, would you tell them?

Probably not. Is that wrong? Not in my opinion.

If one does not tell their partner they like to crossdress, and it saves both of them the pain and heartache many have discussed on these boards, I'm not going to judge them by calling them liars.

Total honesty is not always the best policy. I wish it were, but some people just can't handle the truth.

And let's not forget that many, myself included, did not tell their partner before marriage simply because it was never an issue.

When I met my future wife, all the time we dated, CDing never entered my mind. And I never had any guilt over CDing before that.

So, if I never thought about it before proposing who was being deceived?

And some believe that marriage will "cure" them. Are they deceiving their partner or themselves? Especially if they truly believe it?

So, no, lying and deceit may be the same in some situations, but in others, not so much, if at all.

[Beth-Lock]

Both are dishonest, but not necessarily equally ranking in "sin".

The quite orthodox Roman Catholic Church actually had to come to grips with this some time ago, and the result was called casuistry, if I remember correctly. That means, if you are not asked, you need not always tell.

What if your partner wasn't as good at sex as a previous partner, would you tell them?

Probably not. Is that wrong? Not in my opinion.

I would call it being painfully honest to the point of being hurtful.

[sometimes_miss]

Few people tell their partnersALL of everything in their past life. Especially with crossdressing, I'm sure many of us felt we could put it all behind us if we just met the right woman. It was that way for me. I thought that I had found the right kind, loving woman who's love would be enough to get me by when the urge to crossdress hit me, which it hadn't since I had started dating her. So what was I to do five years into a marriage, things going down the tubes, and I can't go to her for emotional and physical comforting when I needed it? And I just gave in to the desire to crossdress. It wasn't anything malicious; I didn't mean to hurt her or anything like that. I didn't feel that I lied to her, or deceived her in any way; after all, I felt I had 'beaten it', and it would never come up again. So, much like someone who had shoplifted penny candy in the past but had stopped, would that person feel it necessary to tell their future mate about it if they hadn't done it in very long? No, I don't think so. Nor would I presume that all 'party girls' that behaved that way in college tell their mates about that part of their past either. It's something that we feel is no longer part of us, and because we have 'grown out of it', we don't mention it. Lies? NO. Deceit? NO. But what do we do when the crossdressing rears it's ugly/pretty head somewhere down the line, after learning that our mate will surely hate us for it? I don't have an answer for that one. Maybe someone else does. All I know, is that I found out that my ex would never have married me had she known about my crossdressing past. That's what got me believing that people fall in love with the image of who they think we are, not necessarily who we really are.

[valenstein]

Reading through this thread, I am amazed at all of the honest, deceitless people who have no secrets at all with their SO's on any subject whatsoever.

If everyone was as honest as they claimed, the world would be such a lovely place. My question is, why would you want to limit all of this beautiful honesty to your wives or SO's. Why don't you all go out right now and tell everyone? Your family, your friends, your employers/employees? What do you have to lose? Is it ok if you are honest to your wife but a fraud to the rest of the world?

Because it doesn't concern them. If I lived with my family I probably would. I don't tell my family because I am afraid that my brother-in-law won't let me see my nephews. I expect unconditional love from my sister and parents, but I don't necessarily extend that to in-laws or co-workers or even friends. I am at the point today where I would not keep a friend if I felt they would not accept me as I am.

I did hide this from my gf for a long time, and I feel terrible about it. It was when the urge became more than an occasional thought in my head to a realization of this is who I am coupled with my intent to marry her that I knew I had to risk telling her. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do but:

I did not want to spend the rest of my life with someone who does not accept me as a whole. I don't expect that from any other person in the world.

[JulieK1980]

Jody, here's some news for you. Whether or not you are intimate doesn't hide the fact that you are deceitful to those in your family, those who employ you and pay your salary, and those you have pretentious friendships with. How many of them would drop you like the plague if they only knew your little secret. As for your children, isn't it the same thing? Aren't you emotionally close with them? The longer you wait, Jodi, the more you have deceived them. The father they thought they knew and loved was living a lie all the while. Will they be devastated when they find out? Or do you think that their minds will be so wide open that they will wholeheartedly accept the fact that Daddy likes to present himself as a woman? And will you put them at risk from ridicule if word slips out? At what age will you wait before you tell them? Or have you not decided that yet?

It's very nice to be able to write one's set of rules and then to tell others it is the only way to live. It shows a tremendous "understanding" on your part. Put everyone in the same box and then lecture them on what works for you.
Do you go about insulting people who happened to have been born prior to you? I'm hoping you have some respect for your parents who might have been born in those terrible, terrible 1950's, or even worse, the '60's.

Do you know that for many of us OLDer CD's, the urges grow with age rather than abate. How you feel now is not how you'll feel when you reach the ripe old age of 32. And then 42... and then 52. Start your own thread and find out if this is true. Perhaps when you reach 40, you will regret that you didn't transition. And then you will be faced with the prospect of tellling your wife that CD'ing doesn't cut it anymore. Be careful she doesn't come back at you and ask why you didn't tell her that at the time you got married. Only time will tell.

It's amazing that your youth hides Experience and at the same time gives you a cloak of morals that only applies to you and nobody else. I do not mean to flame you, but for you to sit there in your own circumstances and pass judgment on anybody is like living in a glass house.

Be careful because one little pebble is all it takes.

I will not further my comments here, so feel free to get in the last words.
You will have to live with them, not I.

Jacqui

You can end the discussion any time you wish, I won't lose sleep over it. But I'm going to argue my beliefs to the bitter end, because they are my beliefs. Its no different than you arguing your own. To disagree is divine. I'm sorry you are offended by my opinion, but that doesn't give you the right to flame me for having it.

I've already stated SEVERAL times, I CANNOT RELATE TO THOSE THAT CHOSE TO HIDE IT AFTER MARRIAGE. I did not choose that path, and thus cannot relate or judge. But to preach the greatness of dishonesty to loved ones is rather absurd. My fear is that a young crossdresser is going to agree with you and keep this cycle going. I still don't see how you can compare loved ones to coworkers, but maybe thats just me. I don't see any reason for telling a coworker unless I chose to transition and go to work dressed. That said many of my coworkers do know I crossdress. The ones that don't know I could care less if I'm decieving they are coworkers NOT friends. As for my real friends Yup they all know. I decided a long time ago, I don't want friends that don't accept me for me. So the ones that dropped me like a plague as you pointed out are long gone, and what remains are the ones that are true and good friends that don't care what I do as long as I'm happy. If you choose to live a lie as I said earlier good for you. I"M NOT JUDGING! BUT DON"T YOU DARE JUDGE ME!

Also you should know before you pass judgement on the telling of the kids, my son is 1 year old, and my daughter 5. So my son, won't really understand at this point whether I tell him once or 500 times. As for when I decide to tell them, me and my wife have had numerous discussions about it, and we are still in the deciding stages of when. Now as for the "full" disclosure of my wife, sorry thats a fail. Me and my wife maintain complete honesty. Yup we have discussed transition and all the nitty gritty and what ifs we can think of. Why because we both lived in relationships revolving around lies in the past, and KNOW it ends in failure.

Its funny your whole point was about me preaching my own beliefs, yet here you are doing the same. Sitting in your own circumstances and judging those that chose a different path. Its real easy to hide behind the cloak of experience and age and tell others that your way is the best.

Now that said, I wish to apologize for any I offended. I do not judge any who choose a different path than my own. You however must respect my own beliefs as well. I will utilize my right to free speach to argue my beliefs and point of views whenever it is challenged. Disagreement is something good and healthy and leads to a good discussion on any topic. Just don't flame me or others for their own beliefs and I will return the favor. Don't ever attempt to silence someone as no matter who they are, you may learn something from them. Now I also wish to point out, I WILL respond to discussion again.

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

I've already stated SEVERAL times, I CANNOT RELATE TO THOSE THAT CHOSE TO HIDE IT AFTER MARRIAGE. I did not choose that path, and thus cannot relate or judge. But to preach the greatness of dishonesty to loved ones is rather absurd. My fear is that a young crossdresser is going to agree with you and keep this cycle going.

I agree quite strongly with you on this. I don't agree with people who are married and have not told their partner and still won't do so. To espouse their position as if it is acceptable for someone who is not yet in a marriage to do the same thing is setting that unmarried person up to potentially experience the type of disastrous marriage failure that has been discussed so many times here and elsewhere.

As for my real friends Yup they all know. I decided a long time ago, I don't want friends that don't accept me for me. So the ones that dropped me like a plague as you pointed out are long gone, and what remains are the ones that are true and good friends that don't care what I do as long as I'm happy.

I've made more true friends both online and in real life by being a crossdresser and being honest that that is what I am. I have a few friends who I'm out to, including some I expected would never talk to me again, and their acceptance was far better than I ever dreamed possible.

If you choose to live a lie as I said earlier good for you.

But when that lie is discovered with disastrous consequences, don't be surprised if sympathy is not forthcoming.

Also you should know before you pass judgement on the telling of the kids, my son is 1 year old, and my daughter 5. So my son, won't really understand at this point whether I tell him once or 500 times. As for when I decide to tell them, me and my wife have had numerous discussions about it, and we are still in the deciding stages of when.

In my case, my son got to see me crossdressed from the first time I did so after he was born. If he is home when I'm dressing and going out, he sees me getting ready. At 5yo, he's entirely accepting of it.

From everything I've read on the subject, young children will accept it quite well up until about 8yo. Between about 8 and 22, they will be dealing with their own gender and relationship issues and may not take it well. After about 22, they are reasonably likely to be accepting except that by then you've done the whole hiding bit for over 20 years, so deceit raises its ugly head again.

The only downside of a young child knowing is the likelihood that they will out you accidently.

Now as for the "full" disclosure of my wife, sorry thats a fail. Me and my wife maintain complete honesty. Yup we have discussed transition and all the nitty gritty and what ifs we can think of. Why because we both lived in relationships revolving around lies in the past, and KNOW it ends in failure.

Ditto. Disclosed very early when dating, long before the decision to marry. If something changes, it will be discussed.

Alice

[Jacqui]

Ok, I lied. Here I go again, dishonest, deceitful and full of sin!

If you care to look at any of my previous posts on this subject, you will find that I have always said that I admired those who have opened up to their wives, have accepted themselves for who they are, etc., etc, etc, etc. But it is impossilbe for those who do not know the circumstances of other people's relationships and situations to preach to them. For you to imply that your way is the only way is, in a simple word, Wrong!

There is a constant theme on this board that offends many, many people, especially those who grew up before the good old Internet days. Many of us older CD'ers have been married longer than you've been alive and are still married!

For you and the Honesty Squad to insinuate to us that we are the lepers of this minority is to ignore the fact that we have somehow made our marriages work defying current statistics that say that 50% of marriages end up in divorce. So come back to me in 20 years when you decide whether or not you want to transition and your wife still stands by you.

You have taken my post totally wrong. You and all of the other members of the Honesty Squad are the ones espousing total honesty as the only way to go. Maybe, in my sarcasm, you have mistaken that I preach dishonesty. If that is the case, I apologize.

You see, even though you may say that total honesty only extends to the
ones you are intimate with or those who will accept you for who you are, I
believe that you are building your own glass bubble.

However, if that's what's good for you, it's fine with me. I will never tell you
how to live your life, it's none of my business.

I don't need you or anybody else telling me how to live mine.

Respectfully to Jody and the rest of the Honesty Squad,

Jacqui

[LA CINDY LOVE]

I told my wife after about 10yrs of marriage, we are married 37yrs now. the biggest relief to me was that I didnt have to lie anymore to her. All the times I would go out and get dressed I would tell her a lie. I was going to a hockey game or going to work and I had really taken off. Now when I go out I tell her Im going out with my friends, she knows what that means. It's not perfect, but it is much better than when I had to lie.

Yours Terri

Sooner or later as a crossdresser you will get CAUGHT if you live in the same house by your wife or girl Friend maybe even by your kids, and all that lying and being deceit you are doing they already know something is up so it is best to tell before you get caught.


LA CINDY LOVE

[Emily Anderson]

I'm the bank and I lost all your money. I'm not going to tell you about it. You can find out for yourself.

How do you feel?

[JulieK1980]

AliceJane,

Interesting points on when to tell the kids. Thats one of the things we've been contemplating and trying to figure out the best way to go about it. 8 or so is the age we seem to be coming to the conclusion of. Thanks for the input!

Jacqui,

Sorry if you feel the need to attack those that believe honesty is good. What part of I'm not able to relate or judge don't you understand? I'm NOT telling you what to do, or have I previously, so get off your high horse already. Being married for 20 or 30 years does not make you an expert, so excuse me if I don't let you tell me how to live my life either. AGAIN I reiterate, my views are just my views. You are entitled to defend yours and I'm entitled to defend mine. However you continue to try and personalize it, and a real debate doesn't work when its personal, so I'm going to let it lie for now, unless you decide name calling (truth squad) and such is not appropriate.

Again I reiterate, someones choice is their choice, you just have to live with the consequences of it. Congratulations though on being married for that long in a world where the odds are stacked against you. Thats no easy feat. But DON'T preach to me how to live my life, and maybe you should be more open to another point of view? What works for you may not work for us. I personally could never live with myself knowing my marriage was based on a lie. As for the glass bubble, I don't agree. I don't talk about my sex life at work either, is that putting myself in a bubble? We have fundamentally different ideas of how to live. I'm not attacking you, I don't see why you feel it necessary to attack me.

On a side note, DON'T EVER BRING MY WIFE INTO THE DISCUSSION on this, I kNOW HER YOU DON'T your opinion on whether she would stay with me or not is baseless and stupid. Do you know her? Didn't think so.