Co-worker approached me today and

[MarcieM]

Seems that friends rarely support you when you need them. They are too afraid to speak up, they are afraid to lose whatever they think they will lose.. in this case I have learned the same lesson. It's a shame when you find that your friends are two-faced and will abandon you in your hour of need. Then they come to you later and say sorry, but I couldn't risk supporting you as I could lose such and such..

I'm not sure why you would ever think you could require "friends" to accept/support your crossdressing. And you call them "two-faced" because they don't?
I don't blame them at all for not supporting you.
I don't know all the details of your work situation, but it seems that you're on your own, and you need to realize that and be solely responsible for your actions.
Go ahead on your own and pursue this alleged "harassment" if you feel that's what you should do. Just realize that when you go messing with someone's employment, things have a tendency to get very ugly.
I hope I'm wrong, but I have a real feeling that someone will end up in the hospital before everything is said and done in this issue.

[Kelli Michelle]

I'm not sure why you would ever think you could require "friends" to accept/support your crossdressing. And you call them "two-faced" because they don't?
I don't blame them at all for not supporting you.
I don't know all the details of your work situation, but it seems that you're on your own, and you need to realize that and be solely responsible for what your actions.
Go ahead on your own and pursue this alleged "harassment" if you feel that's what you should do. Just realize that when you go messing with someone's employment, things have a tendency to get very ugly.
I hope I'm wrong, but I have a real feeling that someone will end up in the hospital before everything is said and done in this issue.

Marcie, she is not requiring her friends to support her. How could anyone "require" something like that? She is correct to assume that if they are indeed her friends, they should offer her support. Anyone, could understand a hesitance to do so, though, since there is a perceived stigma attached to people who support CDing, gay lifestyle, and others. Still that hurts.

While it's true that violence can happen at any time, for any reason, and that one should always take precautions, it is less than realistic to suppose violence would happen in this particular case. unless you know more than what's been written of here. I am not sure where you are getting this feeling from.

Anyway, Kimberly, you are apparently doing what you feel you must, and I wish you the best.

[sandra-leigh]

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a real feeling that someone will end up in the hospital before everything is said and done in this issue.

That after having said,

Fear has nothing to do with this issue for me. I simply choose as many many others on this forum do, NOT to CD in public. It's about choices, not fear.

Perhaps this apparent contradiction might be related to

But when you start "blurring the lines" that's when things start getting dangerous. Think about it.

which statement you haven't happened to had time to clarify as yet.


To the naive reader, your several statements may perhaps give the impression that you are fear-mongering; as several of the posters in this thread don't "get it" (the non fear-mongering thing you are trying to say), explication would help.

[MarcieM]

She is correct to assume that if they are indeed her friends, they should offer her support

I disagree. They have zero obligation to offer him support on this issue.

To the naive reader, your several statements may perhaps give the impression that you are fear-mongering; as several of the posters in this thread don't "get it" (the non fear-mongering thing you are trying to say), explication would help.

You can label it however you want, it really doesn't bother me at all. Whoever don't "get it"...sorry but that's not my problem.
There's no fear-mongering to it. Maybe you could call it reality-mongering? This is the real world. Sometimes living in the real world can bite you in the ass. In these economic times, try getting someone fired and you're liable to find out about getting bit in the ass sooner rather than later.

[sandra-leigh]

In these economic times, try getting someone fired and you're liable to find out about getting bit in the ass sooner rather than later.

Perhaps I didn't read the various postings carefully enough: could you provide a quotation / link to somewhere in this thread (or any other posting on this system) in which Kimberly51 indicated that she wanted this person (or any other person at her workplace) to be fired? E.g., did I miss some subtext in this message of Kimberly's?

I told my HR rep that I don't have a problem with this employee, that he is entitled to his viewpoints, but when it it is extended and voiced to an outside service vendor that is when I need to talk to her. That it is unprofessional and possibly harmful to our companies image, I will let her proceed with the investigation of what happened.

Maybe you could call it reality-mongering?

Here's the bottom line...society does not look favorably upon a feminized non-passable male in public like this. This individual will be singled out and harassed at almost every opportunity. You can say whatever you want, but that's pretty much the reality of this situation.

Do you include your statement that "This individual will be singled out and harassed at almost every opportunity" in what you refer to as "reality-mongering" ?

Possibly conditions for CDs are harsh where you live. Where I live, here is a slice of reality:

Early yesterday afternoon, I changed into a long grey woolen skirt in a bar bathroom. Two guys in the bathroom saw me clearly; neither said a thing to me. Four guys just outside the bar door saw the skirt clearly; if they said anything, it wasn't in my hearing. I proceeded to walk a few long blocks along a busy road, and went into a woman's clothing store (Penningtons), where I was welcomed, complimented on my skirt, and assisted by a couple of SA's, including trying things on and them fetching alternate sizes for me and making some recommendations. There was one guy in the store waiting for his wife, and he didn't say a thing about me, at least not while he was in the store (I was within hearing range of him for the duration.) At check-out the SA asked for my store points card, expecting that I would have one (which I did), and bid me to come back again.

After that, I walked a couple of long blocks on a semi-busy road to a nearby major shopping mall, one considered to be the premiere shopping mall in the city, though it is perhaps not actually the largest. I passed a few people on the sidewalk along the way; the only interaction was that I was routinely panhandled for some change, exactly as would have happened if I had been dressed completely male.

Once in the mall, I went about my business shopping, my skirt in full sight of all of the clerks and shoppers in the stores and in the mall and food court. Total observed public response: a couple of mildly curious looks (from some senior citizens). One mid-20's woman might have pulled a friend aside and said "Did you see that guy?!", but the distance was far enough that she might have been saying something else completely, and they didn't turn and look over at me. When I was going down the escalator leaving, a youngish male behind me might have said "Huh", but the tone was more one of startlement, not accusatory and not directed at me.

The various store SAs that I interacted with treated me fine. And when I walked through the Power Tools and Audio/Video section of a department store to go to the washrooms that happen to be located in that corner, the all-male grouping of clerks just did the basic 2-second visual scan to be sure I wasn't carting unpaid merchandise into the washrooms and otherwise paid me no attention.


After the large mall was 30 minutes on the city bus to a local shopping mall near my home;

• No-one on the bus cared how I was dressed.
• The clerks at the bookstore I entered smiled pleasantly.
• The owner of the higher-end bra store was slightly annoyed because I asked for bras that she considers to be too small for me (I was hoping for one that made me look good without any forms, but she thinks anything less than a D cup looks too small for me and thinks that the G cup looks good on me.)
• The two guys at the cobbler didn't care about my skirt, but didn't have the insoles I needed; they took the time to tell me where I could probably find them.
• The male owner of the ladies fashion store across the way again took time to try to understand my needs and make recommendations... unfortunate that his tastes run to more vivid than mine, but he did try to understand, and he asked me more carefully about what I was looking for so he would know what to buy in the future. And although I've always been in drab when I have dealt with him, he "slipped up" and several times referred to me as "she" in talking to his (female) partner.
• The people at the drug store didn't care how I was dressed. The assistant druggist waved and said hello.
• the stream of people I weaved through who were heading to the movie theaters didn't appear to be interested in anything other than making their movie on time
• I've recently been dealing with a tailor at the mall, including getting a dress altered (which required showing them it on me so they could mark the proper places on the dress.) This time I took in some women's jeans I bought at one of the stores and put them on so they could see where to take in the waist. They didn't mind.

Total time out and about in busy public places while in my skirt: about 6 hours.

Did I mention that that second mall is only 1 mile in a direct line from home, a natural place for my neighbours to visit, not just a place far from home where no-one is likely to know me?

Well, that's my "reality-mongering" for the day: not even one outbreak of giggles in six hours. My skirt was, to most people, of considerably less interest than whatever they were already doing, and I got positive reinforcement from several people. And along the way I found a nice pair of pumps in my size (12), and a lovely brown silk blouse, amongst other items. Who knows what I could have accomplished if people hadn't been busy harassing me "at almost every opportunity" ??

[MarcieM]

Perhaps I didn't read the various postings carefully enough: could you provide a quotation / link to somewhere in this thread (or any other posting on this system) in which Kimberly51 indicated that she wanted this person (or any other person at her workplace) to be fired?

Just what do you think the motive is here? That's exactly what will happen if this person is charged with alleged "sexual harassment" (which is clearly not the case).

here is a slice of reality

I'm really not interested in your "slice of reality". That isn't the subject of this thread. Your experience is most assuredly not everyone's experience.

[cd_britney_426]

Marcie, your statements actually appear to be anti-transgender. You didn't even call Kimberly by the correct gender pronouns in one of your previous posts even though her screen name here is a female name and she believes that she may be a TS even though she has not begun an actual "official" transition. You keep stating that violence and even murder is practically guaranteed to anyone who simply ventures out CDed and isn't 100% passable and especially if they make any types of waves such as an HR complaint at work. You state your opinions as if they are facts but they are not facts at all. I have researched hate crimes statistics here in the U.S. with regards to trans people. I will not whitewash the fact that hate crimes are a serious concern and that trans people need to be especially careful. That being said, trans people--millions of them--go out in public every day whether they be CDs, TSs, or even just "gender benders" and there are no battles in the streets over this, bodies are not piling up on the sidewalks, etc. There is the occasional tragedy which hits the news which again does force us to be more careful but the "reality" that you speak of is not reality at all. You need to cite some actual facts here, otherwise your statements are simply your mere opinions. Your anti-transgender opinions will not be tolerated here. If you cannot even call a trans person here by the proper gender pronouns, I conclude that you are anti-transgender and further such posts will be reported to the moderators/admins.

As to "reality," I live in Arizona and just happened to go to a convenience store in a fairly rough area last night not only dressed in femme but wearing "nightclub" attire that would cause heads to turn even if a GG was wearing it. I had to run this errand after I left a nightclub so we are talking a 7-11 type of store in a bad neighborhood at 3 am with gangbangers loitering in the parking lot. Guess what? No threatening looks, stares, or comments. I simply got in line and nobody even noticed. The female clerk asked for my ID for a tobacco purchase and naturally she noticed then. She didn't even poke fun but simply smiled and I smiled back. A couple of men did kind of turn their heads and stare for a few seconds when I spoke to her and I believe my voice sounded more male than female. Even then, I had no way of knowing whether I was actually "clocked" by the other customers or if they were simply admiring the dress I had on. The gangbangers outside wouldn't even pay me a second look as I'm sure their drug deals were of much higher priority on their minds. No gun battles, no SWAT teams, no helicopters, and no bodies in the streets. Could someone have tried to kill me? Sure, but the chances of fatally slipping in the shower in my own home probably was more likely. I don't even live in a "liberal" or "accepting" state. This is ARIZONA where crime is very high, rural towns can be very "backwards," and even a lot of city people come from the "old traditions." Britney

[Michelia]

I am not a mod nor do I want to pretend to be.

Yet as my simple mind sees this, there are 5,000 views of this thread. Obviously it has garnered a lot of attention. It is starting to look like most of us have not joined in this discussion because it has degenerated into a tit for tat exchange by different personalities. I am all for discussion of subjects like this.

But in this case, I think the topic of interest is becoming diluted by a discussion that is not getting anywhere.

I will have to add my opinion for the sake of clarity. I believe Marcy will not listen to anyone or wants to think or reflect upon what others are saying. No one will change her mind. I also think she is becoming increasingly aggressive and dismissive of others' viewpoints. I also believe others have been patient in making their points and trying to lay out what I think are pretty reasonable positions.

Although I am sure everyone is interested in what happens with Kimberly's case, maybe she could just open another thread later and let us know what happens. I would not want to see her valiant efforts at work and her honest search for advice obscured in a thread that becomes a clash of personalities.

[MarcieM]

You didn't even call Kimberly by the correct gender pronouns in one of your previous posts even though her screen name here is a female name and she believes that she may be a TS even though she has not begun an actual "official" transition.

"may be a TS" ? A crossdresser is not a female, so my gender pronoun was correct.

Although I am sure everyone is interested in what happens with Kimberly's case, maybe she could just open another thread later and let us know what happens. I would not want to see her valiant efforts at work and her honest search for advice obscured in a thread that becomes a clash of personalities.

I agree. This thread has ran it's course.

[Nicki B]

..it seems that you're on your own, and you need to realize that and be solely responsible for your actions.

Sounds as if you're really talking about yourself. That's sad, because I fear you're running the risk of making that a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There's no fear-mongering to it. Maybe you could call it reality-mongering? This is the real world.

And yet for those of us who live in it, what you describe certainly is NOT reality? I've asked you quite a few times now to explain just what has caused you to talk like this - since you won't give any reason, one must assume it IS just fear that makes you post so aggressively?

[Christinedreamer]

ATTITUDE speaks volumes. That chip on the shoulder is looking more like a tree trunk every post Marcie.

We all wish your fears could be allayed from our experiences as most of us have not had the hateful and physically dangerous things happen as you proffer to be not only possible but quite probable.

As you can see from my avatar, I am not the least bit passable and I am a full voiced bass singer in a choir so I have little hope of presenting anything even resembling a "typical" feminine voice. Yet with all that, I have NEVER found any hostility, hatred or danger in my forays into the "real" world.

As mentioned SEVERAL times by those MUCH more "out" than me, you seem to be creating a world that the rest of us -and we are many- have not run across.

Perhaps if you did not dress for a while but acompanied a few others who DID you may see where the attitude difference comes into play.

Watch the guys in a bar. Some are mean and ready to take on the world if someone looks askance at them. Others are feeling good, acting a bit silly and laughing. Which do you think will draw the most negativity from the others? The happy guy or the angry guy?

The same holds true in your case. If your attitude or body language telegraphs fear or anger you will atract the same.

This is called human nature.

I also agree that there is no more flesh on this horse's skeleton.

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

heartfelt thank you, to all my sisters who offered their kind advice and words of encouragement. You all know who you are, you have given me support and encouragement and I would be proud to call you all my friends. As I won't be able to talk with my HR Manager till next Monday, I will not know the complete resolution to this incident till then. If this thread is closed, I will open a new one referencing this thread, to allow me to update my friends.

To some critics, I do indeed accept responsibility for how I dress and will accept the comments and ridicule, but sometimes you need to deal with certain people. Not all of the people but some, you need to pick your battle's. This is how change is brought about and for my friends here they understand. You can't just hide, be afraid and hope things change. You need to go out, learn, adapt and grow as a person.

As for supportive friends who withdraw their support, that always hurts. But, when they offer their support to your face and then several day's later say "I don't know what your talking about" and deny everything. That is wrong, but I will remain friends with him. As a loud critic said "he doesn't need to give his support", but he offered it and backed off, that hurts.

Again, I thank all my friends and they know who they are. You all may PM me later after Feb 16th to find out what the resolution of this thread will be..Or you can PM to say Hi anytime..

Love Kimberly,

[cd_britney_426]

"may be a TS" ? A crossdresser is not a female, so my gender pronoun was correct.

No, you are actually being defammatory. It does not matter what one's genitals are or even per se what label YOU think fits them. If the individual presents in public as female, prefers to be called and/or treated as female, uses a female name (as is the case on THIS DISCUSSION BOARD), and identifies as female, they should be treated that way. Anything less is defammatory. I spend most of my day-to-day life presenting as male in drab but on THIS BOARD I use a female name, a feminine avatar, and I do go out in public from time to time presenting as female, with a female name, etc. I expect to be called and treated as a female on THIS BOARD as I do when I am out in public presenting that way. While I cannot control how others view or treat me in public places, this is a SUPPORT board where we respect each other's wishes. If you cannot show me and other transgender people on this board proper respect and educate yourself on the issues, I advise you to leave the board and go somewhere else. You are offending me and a lot of people here. If you don't have any supportive purpose here, you are trolling. Britney

[EryLynn]

Like long hair and mini-skirts in the sixties, high heels and see through blouses in the seventies and then earrings for men in the 80's ... society is always constantly evolving and changing what is and isn't "accepted".

There will always be someone who opposes the "relaxation" of mores and will cite all the dangerous, evil, and life-threatening possibilities that could ensue if they are accepted commonly.

I recall my Dad having fits when my hair would touch my collar, and the disgust in his voice when I bought my first pair of hip-hugging jeans and high heel dancing shoes.... all extremely fashion-forward for men in the early 70's.

I met with some of the same jeering remarks as Marcie claims will happen.... at first, then they faded away and I don't remember noticing when they stopped. The memories I have are that as more and more people either opted to wear their hair longer, or wear hip-hugging jeans, or high heel shoes that less and less people commented, or even made any notice of it. After a while it wasn't noticeable as different behavior.

Marcie is just being an old curmudgeon. I don't mean it as an insult, but the probabilites are that Marcie will take it as such. I can't help that, and as such it will be up to Marcie to deal with the problem as, as she has stated, it isn't mine to worry about.

While 25 or so years ago we were wondering WHICH ear was OK to pierce, nowdays they sport two, or even three... on the same ear. Heck, has anyone noticed the large "hoop" ear-RING? Some of those folks undoubtedly have heard comments such as Marcie espouses.... and probably just ignored them.

Don't give in to the fear. Whether it is your imagination, or the loud rantings of the curmudgeon. If you let them affect your behavior, you will have acquiesced to be under their "control".

While it won't happen this week, and possibly not this year, the time is coming when some enterprising young man will say "Why CAN'T I wear a skirt?", and he'll wear it with such aplomb and self-assuredness that others will soon follow.

A tidal wave is just a ripple .... magnified.

EryLynn

[Shelly Preston]

[SIZE="3"]This Stops Now[/SIZE]

Please stop with the cutting remarks to each other

I hope everyone here remembers this is a support forum

Yes we can all have differences of opinion but we can still be polite to each other

I don't want to close this thread because it is an important topic

Oh and for anyone who has a problem with a staff decision contact a moderator

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

As my co-worker friend who said he'd support me backed out and denied saying anything, I really have no foot to stand on as I did not hear the comments directly.

Anyway, I told her what was told to me by Johnny, my co-worker friend. I further stated I did not want the other employee fired etc as he is entitled to his opinion, my HR manager said he may be entitiled to his opinion but he should restrain his comments, especially when given to outside vendors. She agreed with me that the comments, beside's being demeaning to me can also impinge on the companies reputation. She asked if anyone else may have heard the comments, I mentioned that if the DP manager was in his office at the time he may have heard the comments. But I stated since I was not present I cannot say with 100% certainty.

She further stated that she will talk with the offending employee and will try to determine if comments were made regarding me and to remind him of the sexual harassment and diversity policies. A notation will be put in everyones file to document the investigation. She further reminded me that no employee should be making derogatory comments to me, that I have the right to work in a comfortable enviroment. She also reiterated the companies dress code to let me know what is acceptable attire for either Male or female employee's to wear. She mentioned that I could wear either attire as long as it met the companies dress code. I am going to follow-up with her to see what she meant, to be sure. It may be a green light to dress in skirts or dress's, but I will see. Otherwise, it was a good meeting.

Kimberly

[cd_britney_426]

Good to hear. It sounds like everything is working out. I would still recommend keeping a lid on things unless necessary. In other words, I wouldn't gossip about anyone at work to anyone at work including to even the workers who appear supportive. I doubt you do this anyway as it sounded like they came to you first anyway instead of you going to them. Obviously, the offending employee won't be happy about being talked to by HR but I have turned people in myself to HR over things and they usually get over it. Most companies have anti-retaliation policies meaning that if the offending employee becomes threatening or harrassing due to your complaint that it would result in immediate termination. Usually people don't want to lose their jobs so they either wisen up and quit the behavior and realize that what they did was stupid or at the very least they still don't like you but stay out of your way. I would pay close attention to the goings on at work for the next few weeks, though, just to make sure that nothing does escalate. If it doesn't, it usually will die down and eventually go away. Again, this is assuming that the person actually wants to keep his job. Britney