Co-worker approached me today and

[sandra-leigh]

Anything can happen to anyone at any time but the question is to what degree are we concerned over the possibility that something might happen vs. WILL likely happen tomorrow. Proper risk management of one's life allows one to find a healthy balance between paranoia and obliviousness.

About 5 years ago, one night as I hustled to get the last bus of the night, I got mugged on the way, only about 1 1/2 blocks away from work. They had a piece of wood wrapped up with carpet that they hit me on the head with, which surprised me and dazed me a bit. And there were two of them and I don't run all that quickly... so I handed over my wallet. Lost somewhere around $220.

I could have gotten bitter and outraged and could have lived in fear of everyone after that and completely changed my habits -- but I made a decision, and so in the end all they stole from me was a bit of money, and not my way of life or personal sanity. So I'm a little more careful now, but situationally, not perpetually. If I'm walking by myself all Dressed in a rough neighbourhood, I keep my eyes open and don't act like a victim.

The mugging had nothing to do with CD'ing -- I wasn't a CD-er at the time. And it didn't steal away my capacity for forming bonds: since I've become a CD, I've been open with lots of different people, and nearly all of them have been either indifferent or accepting or encouraging -- I talk socially to many more people now than I did before, and a lot of them enjoy my company. If I had been afraid of what might be, I would have missed so much!

I can walk into nearly any clothing chain or boutique in the city and expect to be treated with respect -- and conversely, places that had no experience with cross-dressers and were a bit squeamish on the idea now welcome me and welcome other cross-dressers, because they've dealt with me as a person and found that Okay, so I'm a bit different, but I'm good-hearted and treat them well, and that have a sense of taste, and that many clothes look surprisingly good on me -- I'm a person, not a pervert and not a caricature.

My mugging didn't set me back (and didn't push me forward either), but just "being myself" has broken down barriers and raised public acceptance, and so notably reduced the likelihood of lynching.

Is my openness without risk? Of course there are risks. Even cross-dressers get pretty confused sometimes about attraction and sexuality, so if some guy were to perchance take a liking to me while I was Dressed, then even if they could tell I was male (which apparently is not especially hard in my case), their confusion over what that attraction means about themselves could potentially lead to an Incident. But I don't lead anyone on, and I don't try to seduce anyone or even dance with any guys (or dance at all): I don't hide this major part of me away because of a possibility of what someone might think. I have much more important things to worry about -- things like the stress my wife is going through trying to deal with her mother's health problems: those stresses are very real and present and not hypothetical at all.

[Jess_cd32]

Since I am out of town this week, I have not been able to talk with my HR manager, I did email her about the comments that were relayed to me by a co-worker, who indicated support at that time. Since then he as reneged on his support. He is refusing to say he heard anything and refusing to say he spoke with me. I guess you learn who your friends are when you ask their support................

Before approaching HR I think you should have made your intentions known to this person beforehand and asked them for their support. I think he's feeling that he helped you by making you aware of this situation, but apparently had no intention of getting involved any further and wasn't asked prior if he would.

It seems that he really doesn't want to get in the middle of this and he does have that right not to, like it or not. I think out of respect he feels he should have been asked first rather than just thrown in the thick of it. Just my .02

If he had been asked prior and reneged, then that is no friend.

[MarcieM]

I would suggest, Marcie, that you do no good to other CDs by advising caution fear as an option. We CDs have all had quite enough of that, and many of us have decided to let the fear go and live our lives fully. I think you do us no service by holding us back. If you can't give us courage, give us the respect of silence. What we're doing, we're doing for you too.

First, you're doing absolutely nothing for me, so don't even pretend to go there. Comments like this only make you look foolish.
Second, I'm not here to automatically respond with "You GO, Girl!" at every post.

I don't live in some fantasy land, I live and function in the real world. If more CD's used some common sense about living and functioning in the real world, maybe things would go a bit easier for them.

As Kandis has said:

Here we have a crossdresser, not a TS as Kimberly has stated she is NOT interested in transitioning at this time, who is dressing femme at work and has a person she works with that apparently has a problem with her doing so.

Let's break down the facts here.
At this point, Kimberly is basically a non-passable crossdresser. Some form of support from the employer may be available, but obviously there's not much support available from other employees. Did you really expect there would be?
Talk is cheap, but most "don't want to be involved" when the rubber meets the road, and you really can't blame them.

As I said before, sure...you can "make a stand" "be true to yourself" or whatever you choose to call it. But nothing is free in life. Everything comes with a price. The question you need to ask yourself is - are you willing to pay the price?

[Nicki B]

The question you need to ask yourself is - are you willing to pay the price?

My answer (and, I suspect Katie's) is yes - I can and do.

You don't seem willing to. That's okay - but you could stop knocking the rest of us who just get on and live our lives as we see fit? Or is there something important you're not telling us?


Edit - this thread seems to apply..

[MarcieM]

My answer (and, I suspect Katie's) is yes - I can and do.You don't seem willing to. That's okay - but you could stop knocking the rest of us who just get on and live our lives as we see fit?

I'm not knocking anyone. I'm allowed to state my opinions on this forum just as you are.

[cd_britney_426]

I'm not knocking anyone. I'm allowed to state my opinions on this forum just as you are.

I hate to say it but it does seem like you are. You made a statement that "passing is everything" and in the same point stated that you don't leave your apartment/home CDed. That is basically saying that you discourage CDing unless you are 100% passable or close to it. This is a support forum for crossdressers and I don't think that this type of discouragement is supportive in any way. Additionally, you also implied that merely having the HR department of a company confront a person who is gossipping about another employee will lead to a good chance of the employee being shot, stabbed, or hit over the head with a tire iron. I'm sorry but you do need to do a reality check here. If you want to stay inside of your home and live in fear then that is up to you but your statements here are not statistically realistic in even the most remote ways and you are cleary discouraging open and free crossdressing in a support forum for people who choose to do so. If everyone used your logic here, nobody would be leaving their house CDed so again you are being anti-supportive here in my opinion.

I also have enough personal experience with dealing with actual threats and actual dangerous people to make a logical assessment on what I'm dealing with when I go out in public (in drab or not). Believe it or not, the more exposure you have to the real world and the more real problems you do encounter, the less scary everything appears to be because now you have the first-hand knowledge and intelligence to sort out the real threats from the possible ones. Until you get real exposure first-hand and not just imagined in your mind or from what you hear on TV, you will never really get to experience real life. I'm going out dressed tonight BTW and I will certainly use caution. I'm not hiding behind my front door scared because of some imagined tranny-basher who probably isn't even there. As someone said one time to me, "Either you are in control of your life or someone or something else is." I refuse to let my own fears or others control my life. Britney

[Katrina82]

Thats pretty sad for him. I think people now will maybe loose respect for HIM because they know he talks about others behind their backs.

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

a reputation for talking behind ones back and spreading rumours, it was one of the reasons I chose to call him on this incident. Though, I am not sure if he knows, it was I who reported it.

All I know at this time is that my HR manager has spoken with the two parties involved, the one who made the comments and my so called supportive co-worker. I suppose I will be called and informed with the results of the investigation soon.

I am usually one who ignores most comments that are directed to me, but this one I felt needed to be addressed. I have the support of the HR to appear the way I have been, as it does not violate the dress code and it was their suggestion if anyone made negative comments directly or indirectly, to come to them as it comes under the sexual harassment policy.

Like I said I chose this incident to report as it was one where I know the person is one who spreads gossip and rumours to hurt people.

[MarcieM]

I hate to say it but it does seem like you are.

Nope.

You made a statement that "passing is everything" and in the same point stated that you don't leave your apartment/home CDed.

Passing IS everything. That is precisely why I don't CD in public.

That is basically saying that you discourage CDing unless you are 100% passable or close to it.

Nope. I don't care what anyone does. Just don't whine and complain about it when you are singled out, talked about, and maybe worse. Society is not required to accept your CD-ing.

Until you get real exposure first-hand and not just imagined in your mind or from what you hear on TV, you will never really get to experience real life.

It's not your job or anyone else's here to define what "real life" is.

I'm going out dressed tonight BTW and I will certainly use caution. I'm not hiding behind my front door scared because of some imagined tranny-basher who probably isn't even there. As someone said one time to me, "Either you are in control of your life or someone or something else is." I refuse to let my own fears or others control my life. Britney

If that's what you choose to do, that's great for you. Fear has nothing to do with this issue for me. I simply choose as many many others on this forum do, NOT to CD in public. It's about choices, not fear. But that really has nothing to do with the issue being discussed in this thread.

[sandra-leigh]

If that's what you choose to do, that's great for you. Fear has nothing to do with this issue for me. I simply choose as many many others on this forum do, NOT to CD in public. It's about choices, not fear.

In this thread, you have not mentioned any motivation other than fear for keeping CD'ing private -- but you have repeatedly, in this thread, listed possible physical harms. For example,

The "battle for freedom" won't mean a thing if some maniac pumps a few slugs from his 9mm into you.

If your points had been along the lines of, "If you CD in public, then you have to expect that people will talk, and you have to expect that some people will disapprove", then that would have been one thing, but you repeatedly explicitly or implicitly mentioned actual violence.

Here's the bottom line...society does not look favorably upon a feminized non-passable male in public like this. This individual will be singled out and harassed at almost every opportunity. You can say whatever you want, but that's pretty much the reality of this situation.

That is not "the reality of the situation" where I live. It probably isn't the reality of the situation where you live either, but I don't know where you live and I likely haven't visited your home-town myself to observe conditions there.

The "reality of the situation" in the city I live is that I can walk out on one of the busiest corners in the city as "a guy wearing a skirt" or "a guy wearing a dress", and be fairly sure that most people won't even bother to look at me, and that (providing it the clothes are not too immodest or too flashy) that most people who look at me will find the event less interesting than what-ever was already on their mind. What have I suffered from at that busy corner? One hard stare from a known sourpuss who has never been observed to smile, and one passing guy who said, "Nice dress!" in a tone that wasn't sarcastic (but his companions broke out in twitters after they passed me, appearing to laugh more at the fact that he'd talked to me than at the fact that I was wearing a dress.)

What have I suffered from as I walk around the malls or local supermarkets (large grocery stores) in a skirt and blouse? I have suffered grievously from people smiling affectionately at me or admiring my clothes or talking congenially to me.

Before I started cross-dressing (and I went public within a couple of weeks of starting), I was "just a customer" -- you know, someone passing through, you get them what they ask for and you take their money and make change and say "Have a nice day." Now that I'm a known cross-dresser, whether I am in drab or fully dressed, in those same stores I am now a person, remembered and welcomed back and talked to, sometimes teasingly scolded for not having been there for awhile, sometimes worried that something happened to me if I haven't been back for awhile.

Average rate of negative remarks or nasty looks when I go out completely Dressed: extremely low. Average rate of positive remarks when I go out completely Dressed: some pretty much every time. And no, that's not due to "fooling" anyone: there is something or other about my appearance (e.g., the shape of my nose or something that like) that makes it fairly easy for people who have met me as a guy before to recognize who I am when I am fully Dressed... and the way they respond is to come over and say that I look great.

Average rate of negative remarks or nasty looks when I go out "gender-bending" (e.g., a guy in a skirt): pretty low. Most people simply don't appear to notice. Even the children (renowned as a class for blurting things out) almost never say anything -- only once, in fact, and that small group wasn't being at all critical, just observational. Meanwhile I have had some lovely warm smiles from children.

This individual will be singled out and harassed at almost every opportunity.

This individual (me) has given the public many opportunities to harass them, and the public here grabs those opportunities by mostly not noticing at all, and by otherwise being welcoming.

But the public reacts to confidence and to happiness. Go out looking nervous or downcast and you will be picked out quickly: you will "move wrong" and "look like you don't belong" even if you are dressed identically to the next person. And what the public sees when I go out fully dressed or gender-bending, is someone who is happy and relaxed, not a threat at all. And there are literally scientific studies that being around happy people makes you happy: happiness is contagious, and people catch it from me when I go out in the clothes of my choice.

If you find the opposite, that going out "feminized" exposes you to harassment and ridicule or the like, then possibly it is the environment (some towns are more accepting than others), but possibly it is you, the way you act and move and so on: other people might be reacting to your body signals much more than to what you are wearing.

Passing IS everything.

Well, what, in more detail, do you mean by "passing" in this context? If I go out to the local mall as "a guy in a skirt" and a middle-aged woman comes up to me and congratulates me on having the courage to be myself (as did happen), then if that isn't "passing" then it's close enough for me! We aren't all here to be "replica women" (to paraphrase Blade Runner's Tyrel Corporation, "More woman than woman"): for some of us, "passing" is acceptance of who we are. Especially for those of us who are not situationally polarized as being "all male" or "all female" (at any one time), looking and moving and talking to be believed to be female by 99%+ of the population, is itself a form of lie, because we are part "male" and part female; for us. Feeling that we have to imitate female 100% is to perpetuate the belief that "there are men, and there are women, and they are completely different". It ain't necessarily so, and thus for many of us, "passing" is not about whether any particular person notices that we are male: it is about whether society accepts that it doesn't [U]matter[U], that society recognizes that there is a spectrum, not just two pigeon-holes.

[rickie121x]

.... When will people ever grow up..

Kim - I think you will be even more happy if you were to lower your expectations a bit, 'cause I don't think it's gonna happen!

[MarcieM]

It ain't necessarily so, and thus for many of us, "passing" is not about whether any particular person notices that we are male: it is about whether society accepts that it doesn't [u]matter[u], that society recognizes that there is a spectrum, not just two pigeon-holes.

You're entitled to whatever view you choose on this, and so am I.
But when you start "blurring the lines" that's when things start getting dangerous. Think about it.

[MarcieM]

And I do feel that you're doing it for all of us, because success is contagious. Not only will this individual be dissuaded, but others in the firm, hearing the result, may be encouraged to come out of their closets of fear. And then they pass the news on...

I think I heard the theme from "Bridge Over The River Kwai" playing in the background as I was reading this.

what a crock.

[Nicki B]

We aren't all here to be "replica women" (to paraphrase Blade Runner's Tyrel Corporation, "More woman than woman"): for some of us, "passing" is acceptance of who we are. Especially for those of us who are not situationally polarized as being "all male" or "all female" (at any one time), looking and moving and talking to be believed to be female by 99%+ of the population, is itself a form of lie, because we are part "male" and part female; for us. Feeling that we have to imitate female 100% is to perpetuate the belief that "there are men, and there are women, and they are completely different". It ain't necessarily so, and thus for many of us, "passing" is not about whether any particular person notices that we are male: it is about whether society accepts that it doesn't [U]matter[U], that society recognizes that there is a spectrum, not just two pigeon-holes.

I would say passing and acceptance are different (and mutually exclusive) - but you're describing exactly what I've found, over the last eight years.

You're entitled to whatever view you choose on this, and so am I.
But when you start "blurring the lines" that's when things start getting dangerous. Think about it.

Dangerous? Rubbish. Certainly not IME.

Why don't you explain your experiences of others that have made you think that way?

[sandra-leigh]

But when you start "blurring the lines" that's when things start getting dangerous. Think about it.

Dangerous? In what sense? Remember you already stated that this issue is not about fear for you, so whatever danger you list in support of your previous statement will have to be one that does not have to do with some hypothetical physical danger. Are you talking "dangerous" as in "It could lead to the breakdown of civilization as we know it" (just like they said about Rock & Roll), or what?

If you are talking about physical danger then either you are being hypocritical about the issue not being about fear, or else you are splitting some hair pretty darn finely.

Your statement, as written, looks to me as if you are fear-mongering again.

You're entitled to whatever view you choose on this, and so am I.

Ah, that's not actually the case. This is a private web site, and First Amendment Rights, or the relevant Charter of Rights and Freedoms rights (Canada) do not apply for private property. We are "entitled" to express only whatever opinions the site owners and managers permit us to express, and there is even "prior restraint" in effect on the site (there are certain words that are automatically bleeped out.)

I'm not saying that the Management has anything to say about the opinions either of us has expressed here; I'm just pointing out that your repetitions of "you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine" is not an accurate representation of the situation.

[Rachel B]

What exactly is "passing" anyways? Next time you go out look around at all the GG's and tell me how many of them actually pass!

If you want them to look like - I dunno, someone like Tricia Helfer - then I'd say not many GG's match up. If they were to look like Jo Brand (British Comedian and sorry Jo, but let's face it IMO you aint the prettiest leaf on the tree) then we'd all "pass"!

MarcieM, I'd say you have some valid points, but they are not well made.

Anyone who is deemed different by society is running the gauntlet of becoming the subject of abuse. And no matter what society does, now or in the future, be it acceptance or denigration, there will always exist an element who will never conform. We all must be aware of this, and never allow ourselves to become complacent. Nor should we allow these things to dictate what we do with our lives. After all, no point worrying about it till it happens is there?

To Kimberly51, having been down the HR route in a previous job (though not for CD'ing related stuff) I'd say be careful when you next go to work. Because in a weird sort of way YOU are now the tittle-tattler, and will be seen as someone who'll go running to HR every time something happens. This makes co-workers wary of you (from experience). Just go about like nothings happened and as has been said, clock in do the job and clock out till the dust (if any) settles.

Regards
Rachel

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

Anyway a little update, my HR manager spoke with my supportive co-worker yesterday and he disavowed saying anything to me and doesn't recall any incident. I'm disappopinted with him, but now know I can't rely on him in the future for anything, changes the dynamics of our friendship somewhat. But my HR manager still wants to talk with me anyway, more likely to hear my side of the story firsthand. She has probably spoken with the other people and gauged their response's to her questions and now she wants to hear my side of the story and see my response's. All I can say to her questions is, "Why would I say something that I can't prove, unless I thought I had support".

Needless to say, This incident will be part of mine and their's permanent record, so if something like this happens again, it could cause more issues for them..then for me.. No matter what I believe I did the right thing. And I want to thank all of my Sisters for their encouraging words and thoughtful insights, but mostly I appreciate the encouraging words. Love Kimberly

[Charisma]

Is any possible way of getting what this turkey is saying behind your back or not in your presence on audio tape? Might sound extreme but its like having a witness that will back you up. sort of a picture (audio tape) is worth a thousand words.

[Christinedreamer]

From what I have read here it seems to me that passing, acceptance etc is just as much attitude as appearance.

I have seen CDs who dressed beautifully but still had a large chunk of masculinity they held onto that telegraphed "Ignore whjat you see , I am a man."

I have seen very plain Janes who acted like charm school matrons.

I have seen CDs who looked all the while like they were ready to rumble. IMO they have the idea that they must be willing to fight to dress the way they want and opt to get nasty if called on the appearance.

If you act in such a bravado manner you will probably be called out. You don't have to be a Casper Milquetoast either.

When I have gone out I have been treated very nicely and I returned the pleasantries and indulged folks in the questions they posed. I did that with honesty and no hostile attitude. That response made the experience enjoyable for everyone.

Sure some giggled at my size and outfit, but they also saw that I was not a threat and after a few minutes listening to my answers to their questions all I got was respect for being an individual.

So I would caution those posting here with such strong and rather across-the-board negative attitudes that the hostility displayed here to those who politely disagree with you will also carry with you in the "real world". If it does you can rest assured that you will DRAW negativity to yourself; it will not go looking for you.

You might consider just walking up to him in front of others and say" You seem quite interested in me for some reason, but as I am sure you have heard before, "methinks thou dost protest too much"

[MarcieM]

You might consider just walking up to him in front of others and say" You seem quite interested in me for some reason, but as I am sure you have heard before, "methinks thou dost protest too much"

I agree. That's a good option. But I doubt you'll be able to get an internet connection from the ICU to post on this forum.

[Michelia]

Anyway a little update, my HR manager spoke with my supportive co-worker yesterday and he disavowed saying anything to me and doesn't recall any incident. I'm disappopinted with him, but now know I can't rely on him in the future for anything, changes the dynamics of our friendship somewhat. But my HR manager still wants to talk with me anyway, more likely to hear my side of the story firsthand. She has probably spoken with the other people and gauged their response's to her questions and now she wants to hear my side of the story and see my response's. All I can say to her questions is, "Why would I say something that I can't prove, unless I thought I had support".

Needless to say, This incident will be part of mine and their's permanent record, so if something like this happens again, it could cause more issues for them..then for me.. No matter what I believe I did the right thing. And I want to thank all of my Sisters for their encouraging words and thoughtful insights, but mostly I appreciate the encouraging words. Love Kimberly

I wish you the best, Kim.

Sorry you had to go through this with your friend. I had the same issue at work once (non-CD related). Others also had issues with the problem person. I stepped up to the plate and had plenty of evidence. Two co-workers swore they would back me up. During the interviewing process, they said nothing.

It is something to keep in mind. Maybe this happens a lot?

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

the whistle at a government job over some issue, he was told by his friends they would support him, but when it came time to back him up they all backed off and offered no support. My brother was run down by government politics, and was black listed for like 12 years now. They have kept him on the job but don't give him any real reponsibiltities.

Seems that friends rarely support you when you need them. They are too afraid to speak up, they are afraid to lose whatever they think they will lose.. in this case I have learned the same lesson. It's a shame when you find that your friends are two-faced and will abandon you in your hour of need. Then they come to you later and say sorry, but I couldn't risk supporting you as I could lose such and such..

[Nicki B]

Needless to say, This incident will be part of mine and their's permanent record, so if something like this happens again, it could cause more issues for them..then for me.. No matter what I believe I did the right thing.

The guy doing the original gossip is a jerk and that's unlikely to change - but the company needed to know if the comments were being made to people outside the company.

Now the company knows, leave it at that? Being perceived as oversensitive to 'banter' makes it difficult for others to work with you, if they feel they might need to tread on eggshells - so go out of your way to talk to people and come over as just the same as ever, to reassure them?

You need friends and allies - always.

[EryLynn]

Friends, co-workers, and generally anyone else other than family will usually support you... as long as there is no cost to them involved.

Sometimes, in their efforts at "due diligence", HR departments will proceed to document, in everyone's personnel file, many of these complaints. The end result is that when confronted with having a comment or complaint, "written in stone" in their personnel file, many find it easier to deny than to affirm it. Without affirmation, HR cannot proceed.

That ends up being an added "punishment" to the ones already being persecuted or oppressed.

Sad but true,
EryLynn

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

resolution to this matter will be in another week, when HR will talk to me directly about the incident. Up to now communication has been thru email and phone.. Again I appreciate all the insightful thoughts and all the encouraging words of support. Love Kimberly