The right to privacy

[Elizabeth Ann]

Do CDs have a right to privacy? Or, at least, can they negotiate the privilege of privacy?

The great moral conundrum on this forum seems to be the issue of total honesty with your SO, with ardent advocates on each side. But why cannot a relationship be honest and respectful of each other's privacy at the same time?

I believe that my 35 year marriage is open, honest, and loving, but both of us recognize that the other is an individual with their own thoughts, desires, and rights. We both draw incredible strength from our marriage, but we are not that romantic notion of "one."

That right of privacy extends from the trivial (I don't actually know how much she weighs) to the more serious. I would actually prefer to be naked than wear male or female clothes. After more than 25 years of marriage, she finally told me that the reason this bothers her is because of a traumatic experience in childhood with a man who exposed himself.

She has secrets I don't know about, as do I. We don't lie to each other, but we do acknowledge the right of each of us to refuse to answer a question, or to voluntarily reveal some things. It does require a trust that your loving partner will do the right thing for you, without losing his or her own individuality.

And if you are wondering, she does know about my CDing. I only started in my 50's, and her knowledge of it lagged somewhat behind its acceleration in my life. She couldn't argue that it was illegal or immoral, but felt somehow it threatened her adequacy as a woman. It certainly doesn't, and as we worked through my argument that "it's not about you, it's about me" she slowly came to accept it.

But I don't have to reveal everything. To listen to some here, you would think that some mornings when we are getting dressed, I should say "Oh, by the way, I masturbated in the shower this morning, and you weren't in my fantasy." I'm not sure that I am in her's either, but I don't think she has to tell me.

I was going to comment on the "lies vs. deceit" thread, but the author appealed for a more narrow focus.

Liz

[battybattybats]

Good point.

Can trust actually exist or have any value in a situation of absolute disclosure? If one demands absolute disclosure then does that mean they have no trust?

Its like does a pet staying with you mean anything when they are chained or caged and cannot escape? But when they have the freedom to leave but choose to stay isnt that the valuable thing?

[JoAnne Wheeler]

For some reason, spouses seem to have a rule that says that we are not to have any secrests from them - it is ok for them to have secrets, but it is not ok for us - it is in their RULEBOOK, page 28

JoAnne Wheeler

[Sheila]

Look I am fed up with us GG's being jumped on for the inability off CDR's to be open and honest with their partners ........... if some of u wonder why some GG's get ticked of with cding, then just take a look around, you want to keep it secrert fine then damn well do so, but if you do decide to come clean or are sloppy about your secrey then tough if it don't go down too well when we discover we have been lied too ......... then Guess what we are expected to keep it secret once you decide to "inform us " or are "discovered"

"talk about wanting to have your damn cake and eat it"

do you realise or even damn well care that you upset the SO's 's that are here supporting our partners/brothers/sisters/aunts uncles/etc ....... apparently not .... you know what Tamara was right a few weeks ago ......... at least about a damn hardcore lot of you

Thank God I have Debs, thank god I know a few sane CDR's, thank god I got to know a lot of decent people on this site or I will tell you whay I might just at this moment in time agree with Joe/Joesephine public about how the vast majority of society APPARENTLY (according to you lot) view you ........it is a long long time since i have been this angry about a thread

[rickie121x]

One may enjoy complete trust, until that day when an incomplete, an untimely, an inappropriate, or an unspoken disclosure weakens or shatters that trust. It seems clear that well balanced individuals would have no problems here... but how many of us, CD'ers, are truly well balanced?

So we teeter on the edges of our intellectuality and intelligence, balancing issues critical to our long term happiness and welfare, hoping to keep our deep pleasures - knowing all the while that dangers are continually generated. Owwww.... difficult situation!

But I don't know about you - I am going to keep doin' it!

Rickie

[Lorileah]

Elizabeth, I agree with you. Maybe it is part of my upbringing but I never expected my spouse to be perfect. I wonder often if marriages collapse due to unrealistic (altruistic) expectations. You know the old story that women marry men hoping to change them and men marry women hoping they will never change. Neither side gets what they want. My wife was never one to be on a pedestal. She knew when we married I wasn't Prince Charming. We have secrets from each other. Keeping those secrets did not interfere with us having a good time together or make the marriage less secure. Maybe it was more that we both knew that the other was not perfect. That I think is the key, knowing that your spouse or SO has flaws and that they know you do too. Ignorance can be bliss. When she was willing to share something I listened and tried not to be judgmental (we all have a little judgment, it is just how we handle it). There are things that I will never know and there are things she will never know. I didn't know how great a marriage I had until recently. Now I wish it could go on longer.

IMHO don't sweat the trivial BS and you will soon learn that it is all trivial.

Dam Sheila, did I miss the point here? Are you one for complete honesty? The way I read that was that Elizabeth was very supportive of her spouse and her spouse supported her

[Elizabeth Ann]

Sheila,

I regret that you are so angry, but I am genuinely confused about it. Is your post, and anger, directed specifically at me, or at all crossdressers in general?

If at me, I don't understand it. I tried to point out that my wife and I have a good and mutually satisfying relationship. Did you read something into my post that made you think otherwise?

If at crossdressers in general, I thought this was intended to be an open forum in which all aspects of crossdressing could be discussed. This is a major issue for all of us, and I believe that it is important for everyone to be able to discuss and give their opinions without recrimination and attack. I am sure you are correct that some things said here do upset SO's and supporting others. But you yourself argue for complete honesty. If not here, then where?

Regards,
Liz

[Sheila]

For some reason, spouses seem to have a rule that says that we are not to have any secrests from them - it is ok for them to have secrets, but it is not ok for us - it is in their RULEBOOK, page 28

JoAnne Wheeler

Lorileah & Elizabeth sorry I did not want to particularly quote post 3 and be accused of picking on Joanne but it was that response that blew my gasket

and yes I am for honesty in full ..... but even i am realistic enough to realise that full disclosure off all facts are ann impossability but when it comes to CDing it is not like or comparable to eating an ice cream if you are on a diet and not being honest about it ....... this affects our lives as well, so surely we deserve the right to have some idea of what may have an effect on how we choose to live it ...............

I have in recent times walked away from post like post ~3 and caome back when calmer .... maybe being full off flu should have made me do it again, but right now I am helping two friends through a break up of marriages due to CDing and lieing ....... they are two decent people who do not deserve the hurt and devestation visited on them .............. now it may well have been that theuir partners were golfers/train spotters and the same hurt and pain over the various activities would have transpired, but it is cding and it's activities that are the cause, so to have Joanne to say that it is okay for us to hahve secrets and not you lot just made me lose it

[Deborah Jane]

For some reason, spouses seem to have a rule that says that we are not to have any secrests from them - it is ok for them to have secrets, but it is not ok for us - it is in their RULEBOOK, page 28

JoAnne Wheeler

I just looked, it ain,t there!!!

I think i ought to tell you JoAnne that they,re working by the same rules as us!!

You,ll find if you are honest with your spouse, then she,ll be honest with you, you,ll also find if you hide things so will she.

In the meantime, would you like a burger to go with the chips you got on your shoulder?

[mykhelee]

I can understans both Sheila's point of view and why it might be deemed a bit overeactive to some. After spending many years in a don't ask don't tell type of relationship I decided to be completely open with any possible relationships. This way I would not have to deal with the sort of fallout that occured when my most tecent ex-wife found my stash.
If your wife is aware that you dress and just doesn't want to know about it or see it and you are comfortable with that, then all is good. If you are in the closet and think she has no idea, you are most likely fooling yourself.
Everyone has to handle things in their own way and in their own time.
This is a very decisive issue and it is a matter of personal beliefs that guides how we choose to deal with it.
May we all find peace within ourselves as we continue our journey,
Khelli

[Joanne f]

I am not sure if anyone has the "right "to anything as most things in life are earned, if you ask for privacy then that can sound like you are doing things that maybe you should not be doing , i would prefer to say i would like to do (whatever) do you mind if i do it on my own .
And although i believe in honesty you have to be a bit realistic about it , it is an ideal that in all honesty cannot really work it is a question of degrees but for some reason when it comes to cross dressing the ones that are out and have survived seam to think that is the way all should go , in my opinion that is not fair as it makes cross dressing look like a big crime and the only way out of this crime is to tell your partner that you cross dress in some form,
this will only make the CD feel like they are committing a crime which in tern will stop them from coming out and sharing what they do with their partner.

[gennee]

[SIZE="3"]I told my wife about my Cding a short time after I started. She found my stuff and I spilled the beans. The fact is that was going to tell her but at a later time. I emphatiically pointed out that I love her. Yes, she was shocked at first. Now over three years later, she is accepting of this part of me (not totally).

We have never prevented each other fro doing the activities that we love. I encouraged her to get GED and she did. She goes out with friends. I'm able to go out in public. My wife gave me a ladies sweater as a Christmas gift. She wears my clothng, too .

The point is that I would never do something that would bother her. I'm sure there are things that she's never shared with me. There are things I have never shared with her. We have been married almost 29 years and we still love and respect each other. If my CDing caused her much anguish, then I would confine it to when she wasn't present. My marriage is much more important than my CDing.

Gennee[/SIZE]

[GaleWarning]

"Absolute disclosure" doesn't do it for me.

But "transparency" does.

[Kelli Michelle]

You,ll find if you are honest with your spouse, then she,ll be honest with you, you,ll also find if you hide things so will she.

Really? Do you really believe that? Not every wife is the same. To ascribe that to all wives (or even people in general), well, I just disagree.

I must admit, I am sorta confused, about the issue of "telling" ones wife. I have told mine btw. I have said this before, but, if the cding is sorta minor in your life, I don't feel that telling is necessary. If it's more important to you, than I am kind of unsure as to what is more important, complete total, bald-faced openness, or the right to privacy (this assumes nothing else going on but cding--no trysts,etc). Thus, I think this is a good thread to explore.

[Karen564]

For some reason, spouses seem to have a rule that says that we are not to have any secrests from them - it is ok for them to have secrets, but it is not ok for us - it is in their RULEBOOK, page 28

JoAnne Wheeler

I know that it's in My rulebook.. what do you mean about theirs?, I didn't know men have rulebooks too.. LOL

Karen

[carhill2mn]

I have my doubts that there is any relationship in which there are no "secrets". Even the very best of friends, siblings, spouses all have a few things about which no one else knows. IMHO it is better that way.

[Christina Nicole]

Look I am fed up with us GG's being jumped on for the inability off CDR's to be open and honest with their partners ........... if some of u wonder why some GG's get ticked of with cding, then just take a look around, you want to keep it secrert fine then damn well do so, but if you do decide to come clean or are sloppy about your secrey then tough if it don't go down too well when we discover we have been lied too ......... then Guess what we are expected to keep it secret once you decide to "inform us " or are "discovered"

"talk about wanting to have your damn cake and eat it"

do you realise or even damn well care that you upset the SO's 's that are here supporting our partners/brothers/sisters/aunts uncles/etc ....... apparently not .... you know what Tamara was right a few weeks ago ......... at least about a damn hardcore lot of you

Thank God I have Debs, thank god I know a few sane CDR's, thank god I got to know a lot of decent people on this site or I will tell you whay I might just at this moment in time agree with Joe/Joesephine public about how the vast majority of society APPARENTLY (according to you lot) view you ........it is a long long time since i have been this angry about a thread

Good point. Never conceal from your wife that you are a crossdresser. If she tells you that you must stop, then stop if you can. Throw all of your crossdressing things away and never ever go back to it. If you can't tell her that you can't or don't wish to stop. If she leaves and divorces you, takes the children, alienates you from your friends and family by spreading gossip, well it's all for the better because it is honest. Imagine how much better you will feel when it's all over, alone, without your children, wife, friends, family and probably thrown out of your home. Yes, what great suggestions!

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Sandra]

I must admit, I am sorta confused, about the issue of "telling" ones wife. I have told mine btw. I have said this before, but, if the cding is sorta minor in your life, I don't feel that telling is necessary.

Minor or not if the SO finds out to them it is not something minor for them. For most their world is shattered knowing that their partner has been doing this behind their back.

[Nigella]

Originally Posted by Kelli Michelle
I must admit, I am sorta confused, about the issue of "telling" ones wife. I have told mine btw. I have said this before, but, if the cding is sorta minor in your life, I don't feel that telling is necessary.

Minor or not if the SO finds out to them it is not something minor for them. For most their world is shattered knowing that their partner has been doing this behind their back.

This relates to anything that has been going on behind a persons back, and don't lets forget that the shoe can fit the other foot.

[Sandra]

This relates to anything that has been going on behind a persons back, and don't lets forget that the shoe can fit the other foot.

I agree the shoe can fit the other foot, and there's more to life than cding.

Lots of people find things out about their partners, but none of you know just how an SO feels when she finds out her partners cding, especially if she finds herself and is not told about it.

[JulieK1980]

Look I am fed up with us GG's being jumped on for the inability off CDR's to be open and honest with their partners ........... if some of u wonder why some GG's get ticked of with cding, then just take a look around, you want to keep it secrert fine then damn well do so, but if you do decide to come clean or are sloppy about your secrey then tough if it don't go down too well when we discover we have been lied too ......... then Guess what we are expected to keep it secret once you decide to "inform us " or are "discovered"

"talk about wanting to have your damn cake and eat it"

do you realise or even damn well care that you upset the SO's 's that are here supporting our partners/brothers/sisters/aunts uncles/etc ....... apparently not .... you know what Tamara was right a few weeks ago ......... at least about a damn hardcore lot of you

Thank God I have Debs, thank god I know a few sane CDR's, thank god I got to know a lot of decent people on this site or I will tell you whay I might just at this moment in time agree with Joe/Joesephine public about how the vast majority of society APPARENTLY (according to you lot) view you ........it is a long long time since i have been this angry about a thread

I agree 100% Coming to this site has taught me that I was wrong in defending CDing as not always being selfish. It seems that no one here cares much what it does to their significant others. Why does it seem I'm one of the VERY few Crossdressers here that don't think its ok to keep something that significant from your wife/so? Don't tell me its not significant enough, cause guess what, if it wasn't significant you could just stop. (I've yet to meet a CDer who could)

[Cassia-Marie]

[SIZE="3"]Secrets in Marriage[/SIZE]
Your Right to Privacy
[SIZE="1"]By Sheri & Bob Stritof[/SIZE]

Being honest with each other doesn't mean you must share every single thought, dream, fear, or fantasy with your spouse. Honesty may be a double-edge sword in your marriage. Knowing what to share and what not to share is an important communication skill for couples to learn and use in their marriage.

"You have the right to privacy--in marriage, in a family, in any relationship, in any group--the right to keep a part of your life secret, no matter how trivial or how important, merely because you want it to be that way. And you have the right to be alone part of each day, each week, and each year, to spend time with yourself." - From the Valley Mental Health

If you don't honor the sense of privacy, both emotionally and physically, for yourself and your spouse, you limit your intimacy with one another. You can't be intimate with your mate without being in touch with the inner most parts of yourself.

There are valid reasons for keeping a secret from your spouse. You shouldn't have to defend not revealing embarassing or hurtful moments from your past. It is possible that the secret involves someone else who asked that the story not be told.

There are many couples who have been married for a long time who have personal secrets that they haven't shared with their spouse. The sense of space, and the sense of a private me is important to many individuals.

[battybattybats]

I agree 100% Coming to this site has taught me that I was wrong in defending CDing as not always being selfish.

For the word 'always' to be true and not offensive all CDs would have to keep this a secret from their spouses! I DID NOT!

And I would think that being the victim of sexual assault resulting in decades-long mental health issues would also be something that a spouse would be best to know about. But people who are wracked with trauma guilt and shame are not so easilly able to confess such a thing.

So that many CDs are too scared to be honest is unsurprising and predictable and should be expected!

lets see, about 1 in 3 people, men and women both, cheat on their partners.

So then thats likely 1/3rd of GG SOs lying to their CDing husbands and vice versa.

Now thats about 1/3rd of all humans in relationships risking exposure to their spuses to STDs just for starters.

And even in anonynous surveys both men and women LIE on the number of people they have slept with in the past. The need for many to conform to socially approved expectations is just that strong!

And on top of that, what is the motivation for such an omission?
How is it purely selfish? Now thats not whether the effect and result is one of gain purely to the CDer but one of intent! To show that an act is truly selfish you must show that the intent is selfish!

Easilly some are. I expect at least 1/3rd of both CDs and GGs, by being cheaters (unless there is some trait in being a CD that leads to more or less cheating, that would be possible as they are all CDs they may have a set of comorbidity traits that might effect that, but for GGs who should otherwise be a fairly random crossection of the comunity to be less often cheaters would be astounding astonishing and astrnomically unlikely!) I think it's safe to say that 1/3rd are mostly selfish.

But to state that ALL CDs are selfish? Thats going to be a very impressive feat of argument to justify that.

[JulieK1980]

For the word 'always' to be true and not offensive all CDs would have to keep this a secret from their spouses! I DID NOT!

And I would think that being the victim of sexual assault resulting in decades-long mental health issues would also be something that a spouse would be best to know about. But people who are wracked with trauma guilt and shame are not so easilly able to confess such a thing.

So that many CDs are too scared to be honest is unsurprising and predictable and should be expected!

lets see, about 1 in 3 people, men and women both, cheat on their partners.

So then thats likely 1/3rd of GG SOs lying to their CDing husbands and vice versa.

Now thats about 1/3rd of all humans in relationships risking exposure to their spuses to STDs just for starters.

And even in anonynous surveys both men and women LIE on the number of people they have slept with in the past. The need for many to conform to socially approved expectations is just that strong!

And on top of that, what is the motivation for such an omission?
How is it purely selfish? Now thats not whether the effect and result is one of gain purely to the CDer but one of intent! To show that an act is truly selfish you must show that the intent is selfish!

Easilly some are. I expect at least 1/3rd of both CDs and GGs, by being cheaters (unless there is some trait in being a CD that leads to more or less cheating, that would be possible as they are all CDs they may have a set of comorbidity traits that might effect that, but for GGs who should otherwise be a fairly random crossection of the comunity to be less often cheaters would be astounding astonishing and astrnomically unlikely!) I think it's safe to say that 1/3rd are mostly selfish.

But to state that ALL CDs are selfish? Thats going to be a very impressive feat of argument to justify that.

I agree, and I should not say all. as all blanket statements are inherently false. (just angered over a different thread) I'd be willing to bet that overall CDers are merely a microcosm of the rest of society, some good some bad, some worthless, some genious, etc. etc. etc. I've seen already that some are right wing conservatives. (this surprised me personally)

[justmetoo]

Here we go again...

It seems like some CDr's are looking for excuses/justifications to keep information from their partners. On the other hand, there seem to be plenty who have owned up and take responsibility for their own behavior. And some of those have found their partners did not accept, others that their partners want to have a sort of "don't ask, don't tell" policy, and quite a few who have found they have loving and understanding partners.

Yes, there is such a thing as too much information. And such a thing as privacy. But honesty and communication are very important, too.

It's been enlightening to me to realize that so often it seems the timing of the telling, and the idea that something like this was kept hidden for so long (however long it was) are often felt by the SOs as more serious than the CDing itself.

For me it, in some ways, it has become easier to be honest about this side of myself as my self-acceptance has grown and as I realize how important this issue - not the CDing so much as the honesty (for both of which I have this community to thank - so, Thank you, lovely people!). I feel now I can and will be up-front about this side of myself to potential SOs very early on.

I'm not trying to tell anyone else how to live. But I know what's right for me.