another controversial attempt at tackling the label

[Inna]

I hope you read this with an open mind, I have been at this for past 4 years and slowly developed this view of transgender condition and the evil but necessary labeling of sub conditions. I know, I know, we are not labels, but I have a need to separate the different aspects of this vast family of people involved in the struggle and joy of being transgender and perhaps, I honestly hope, this may help some to gain more clear understanding of their own life. I reserve the right to be wrong about everything but something tells me I am Right!

Tell me what do you think?


Stage 1
Fetish
Person is experiencing sexual charge from an object (usually undergarment) of the feminine design and character. Wearer is visualizing him self as a feminine object of desire through fixating on worn garments. When garments not present, worn or imagined, personal identity of this person resumes male status. Also typically following orgasm, an immediate return to male status is imminent. This stage is specifically of only sexual nature.

Stage 2
Crossdressing fetish;
Wearing of clothing in combination or without, undergarments, to assimilate into and project an inner satisfaction of feminine character. Typically, person is dressed for visual affirmation and reflection of feminine character within.
All senses are involved, from touch and tactile stimuli, through feeling of soft or tight fitting clothing to visualizing a complete feminine being. This experience will be sexually charged and in combination or an extension of the first stage of fetishism.

Stege 3
Crossdressing;
Same as above but senses involved go beyond mere sexual and dwell well within gender identity which need an affirmation through visual stimuli. Person feels and assimilates the assumed feeling from within of being truly feminine in nature weather part, half/half or entire self. This stage in non sexual and wearing clothing of an opposite sex gives rise to feeling of completeness and true. Person at this stage of transgender condition has a desire to fulfill the transformation but the circumstances of life may interfere in such decision. Many will deny this aspect consciously from fear of unknown but subconsciously given freewill and smooth transition would not hesitate to start.

Stage 4
Transsexual;
Wearing of garments becomes secondary, now the desire of change focuses on another layer of presentation and that is skin and body. Mere dressing becomes more of a camouflage and the desire to become true in nature to the feeling of femininity within and feeling of completeness needs partial or total assimilation of body sexual characteristics.
Now the feeling of sexual charge is not localized on clothing at all, in fact visual stimuli helps but does not complete the feeling of femininity within. The change of body characteristic is necessary for feeling of completeness.

All these stages are a progression of transgender road map. For some it may start at stage 4 and for some it may never go beyond stage 1, but through my own experiences the road map seems true and logical.


OK, as I posted further down here, after reading your conclusions I have REVISED my previously flawed speculation with the concrete findings of the science, and here they are:

here is my revised version of my initial post:

Stage 1:

Stage 2:

Stage 3:


Stage 4:

Stage 5:

Stage 6:

[Karren H]

Well you got one thing right..... Labels are evil, no mater who makes them up... Imho..

[JulieK1980]

Stage 5: None of the above.

[Frédérique]

Crossdressing fetish;
Wearing of clothing in combination or without, undergarments, to assimilate into and project an inner satisfaction of feminine character. Typically, person is dressed for visual affirmation and reflection of feminine character within.
All senses are involved, from touch and tactile stimuli, through feeling of soft or tight fitting clothing to visualizing a complete feminine being. This experience will be sexually charged and in combination or an extension of the first stage of fetishism.

[SIZE="2"]Close, but you’re off base when you say the experience WILL be sexually charged – you’re making an assumption based on your insistence about a fetishistic aspect you strongly believe MUST exist. I’m living proof that the wearing of snug feminine garments, replete with a plethora of tactile stimuli or other sentient pleasures, can be accomplished without a sexual connection, overt or otherwise. Oh, I worship my feminine clothes, to be sure, but they are not my personal conduit for sexual release…

Projecting "an inner satisfaction of feminine character” is more like it, but it may be more accurate to say that one projects an expression of gender incorporation by wearing the appropriate “uniform” for such a blessed event – there isn’t much to choose from, in terms of clothing, so the feminine clothes are convenient and somewhat inevitable. Satisfaction is guaranteed, but sexual satisfaction is not the aim for me – aiming at something is purely a masculine activity...
[/SIZE]

[Kaz]

I have several problems with this. Firstly any attempt at a unifying model will be flawed by definition - this is a very heterogenous group, so categorisation, whilst helpful in generating debate, will always leave people outside the boxes. But there is another problem in that you see this as a progression... My experience and reading everything I have as part of this community would suggest that there are many different paths and desired outcomes... Having said that, I can relate to your stages very well on a personal level. I have, however no desire to transition. If I could zip between male and female that would be brilliant, but I have no desire to live as a 100% CD... I would also not desctribe my early mumblings as "fetish"... it was more experimentation and exploration. Yes there was always a "sexual/sensual" element after puberty, but this I think was tangential. It was not the main reason for doing it. I did it because I was drawn to it initially and then it just felt right?

[kathie225]

To say this topic is controversial is total understatement. Crossdressers are like finger prints. We all have finger prints, however, the whorls formed by the ridges of the prints are unique to the individual. So are the experiences and events that lead up to our becoming crossdressers unique to each of us. We are crossdressers. To dicotomize that category further begins to exclude people from the population. Why we are as we are is for each of us to answer for ourselves, i.e., if you really must know and can't enjoy the trip without knowing. I say have a beer or glass of wine, kick back and enjoy.

[DeeInGeorgia]

No!

Wearer visualizing self as feminine image of desire- Definitely not at age 6. Nor at 9 when my sister, next door neighbor girl and I dressed up as ballarinas and went and showed my mother. Nor at 11 when I took a year of ballet. At 12 I kept hoping I would grow breasts. At 14, it was more what I hoped my future girl friend would be.

Fetish for sexual gratification came insomewhere in early teens, but was not a major part.

[Cynthia Anne]

Stage LEFT Just what I'm going to do so I don't get involve in another atemp to tack labels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[docrobbysherry]

Stage 1. We r born.

Stage 2. With luck, we grow up.

Stage 3. With even more luck, we grow old.

Stage 4. We die!

As u say, there R always a few exceptions! Some folks rush to Stage 4 from Stage 1, or 2!

[Elsa Larson]

As much as I hate being labeled, I agree that descriptive labels would be handy.

Imagine you have come out to a person in your life as a "crossdresser" and that person has done a search for "crossdresser" on Flickr.
The first page of the 224,198 results I just got includes:
> attractive, apparently female persons
> people dressed like sex workers
> people dressed like drag queens
> hairy men wearing lingerie and masturbating

ALL have a legitimate claim to the label "crossdresser". But to the public at large, we are all lumped together.

[AllieSF]

Whew! I guess I really lucked out and do not fit any of those hated lables. I enjoy my male self and dressing up and presenting as a female. I do not get sexual satisfaction with the dressing itself. I do not want to be a woman, though I do enjoy the dressing and acting like one. It is like a constant costume party where I always dress the same theme with different styles and outfits. My "turn on" comes with interacting with the people I meet while dressed. The conversations, jokes, laughs and serious conversations more than make my time out dressed more than well worth it. The garments and accessories are very important to me as I work to perfect my look, styles and presentations for my audiences. I do not feel, see or want to have two different genders and identities. I am me and I love myself dearly.

[Vickie_CDTV]

There is already the Watson Gender Identity Scale which is virtually identical, which has 6 levels from cis to high intensity TS
http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/watson.html

and the Harry Benjamin scale (which I think is more accurate)
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Benjamin_scale

[Joanne f]

How can it be a road map that is true and logical if some will start at #1 and go no further and some will start at #4 without going through 1,2, and 3, i am sorry to say but this is the worst explanation of the way things work i have seen so far .

[joanna4]

I would like to say 1 and 2 FORSURE and half of #3 but not #4

[Pythos]

Label E is my stance. That is "The ever present want of clothing styles and choices to be equal among the genders, no matter the sex of that person." I personally do not want to be a woman. I have no desire for a sex change. I am who I am, and want the freedom that is held from me and others due to hate, ignorance, bigotry and sexism.

[Inna]

There is already the Watson Gender Identity Scale which is virtually identical, which has 6 levels from cis to high intensity TS
http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/watson.html

and the Harry Benjamin scale (which I think is more accurate)
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Benjamin_scale

thanks Vickie, after all I am #5 Benjamin baby on my way to #6
As I posted this will be controversial, I suppose it will always remain controversial just as theory of everything in astrophysics does elude our understanding, and yes I am comparing both as equally important , WOW ain't that controversial

[Sara Jessica]

That is just way too cute!!!

(edit - your revised version, Alexia. Seems I'm not allowed to quote your little emoticon chain)

[juno]

We need to think in terms of adjectives rather than labels. Many descriptions are useful, but not when you try to make them into labels or specific groups.

For example "tall" is a perfectly valid adjective, and nobody is bother by the act that it is totally ambiguous. Someone who is tall can still be a short basketball player. The term is useful, but trying to classify people as short, medium or tall is problematic both because there is no strict cutoff, and because it is only one aspect of thousands that describe that person.

It is also context-dependent. I might be able to classify myself as transsexual among typical "straight" crossdressers (I am more female than male on the inside), but I would just call myself a crossdresser among transsexuals (because I only dress female part time).

Secondly, I think the idea that crossdressing starts out as a fetish is flawed. It starts as a fetish for many people because they are young and full of hormones. Eroticism permeates your thoughts. Cross-dressing feels like a fetish because you are young and horny. Consider the sexual preference for females. Nobody describes it as starting out as just a fetish. Of course, you could say that all sexual preferences are a fetish. Of course, some people retain it as a fetish as an adult. At least for some people, that may be more a result of being secretive instead of accepting their desire as "normal".

Lastly, this whole categorization thing is a problem in many areas. People are often categorized into ethnic groups like Caucasian or African-American, but what do people do when they are somewhere in the middle? What percentage of African genes do you need to be African American? The Unites States is well-know for being a "melting pot" of mixing ethnic groups, but we still have these categories on many documents. In some ways, ethnic classification is stupid because it is so ambiguous. However, there are many cultural differences and racism still exists, so the differences are real. Also, they are smart enough to include some "Other" or "No Comment" options and don't force you to pick one, as is done with male/female or LGBTIQS classification.

[Fab Karen]

That may be the progression of YOUR life, but in general, no, that doesn't fit the reality of many of us.

[Vickie_CDTV]

For example "tall" is a perfectly valid adjective, and nobody is bother by the act that it is totally ambiguous. Someone who is tall can still be a short basketball player. The term is useful, but trying to classify people as short, medium or tall is problematic both because there is no strict cutoff, and because it is only one aspect of thousands that describe that person.

Tall is a vague term, but one can describe height using an objective, empirical scale. Having something similar would be very useful for those who need to study and describe transgender behavior (spoken like an engineer, I know.)

[Rianna Humble]

I hope you read this with an open mind, I have been at this for past 4 years and slowly developed this view of transgender condition and the evil but necessary labeling of sub conditions. I know, I know, we are not labels, but I have a need to separate the different aspects of this vast family of people involved in the struggle and joy of being transgender and perhaps, I honestly hope, this may help some to gain more clear understanding of their own life. I reserve the right to be wrong about everything but something tells me I am Right!

Tell me what do you think?


Stage 1

Stage 2

Stege 3

Stage 4

All these stages are a progression of transgender road map. For some it may start at stage 4 and for some it may never go beyond stage 1, but through my own experiences the road map seems true and logical.

I think your "stages" are a fairly reasonable description of some parts of the transgender community, but I cannot agree with the premise that you "progress" towards being transsexual. All the evidence that I have seen suggests that TS's are not made but born. True, many of us try to suppress the knowledge of who we are and some of us may try to portray ourselves as one of your types of cross-dresser, but the reality is that we are TS even when we try to pretend to ourselves that we are not.

Admittedly, you have tried to cater for that by saying that some may start at "stage 4" and others may not progress beyond "stage 1", but where we differ is in the idea that you can evolve from being a non-TS cross-dresser to being TS.

I am not sure where you fit members such as SissyStephanie who insist that they have never been anything other than a man wearing female clothing because they like the style and comfort, or those for whom there has never been a sexual element.

My other concern with this being projected as a progression from A to D is that some could use this idea to treat those at a different "stage" as some kind of second class citizen.

The fact that I am transxexual does not make me any better or any less good than any other member of crossdressers.com

[Loni]

well i am not a bottle so i have no need for a label.

i just want to be treated as i appear. just treating one with kindness, or just O what would the word be were you are just treated and not punished or looked down on. or held in a "special" kind of way.
just letting one live there life and being my self, as i am spending more and more time as loni (i have very little "free" time as it is). work gets in the way of having a life, and must be the drab male self to earn a pay check.

.

[Inna]

I think your "stages" are a fairly reasonable description of some parts of the transgender community, but I cannot agree with the premise that you "progress" towards being transsexual. All the evidence that I have seen suggests that TS's are not made but born. True, many of us try to suppress the knowledge of who we are and some of us may try to portray ourselves as one of your types of cross-dresser, but the reality is that we are TS even when we try to pretend to ourselves that we are not.

Admittedly, you have tried to cater for that by saying that some may start at "stage 4" and others may not progress beyond "stage 1", but where we differ is in the idea that you can evolve from being a non-TS cross-dresser to being TS.

I am not sure where you fit members such as SissyStephanie who insist that they have never been anything other than a man wearing female clothing because they like the style and comfort, or those for whom there has never been a sexual element.

My other concern with this being projected as a progression from A to D is that some could use this idea to treat those at a different "stage" as some kind of second class citizen.

The fact that I am transxexual does not make me any better or any less good than any other member of crossdressers.com

Personally I truly hope that our nature shall be understood as perfectly normal variation of gender flux within a natural process of evolution. Such evolution throws a dice hence we end up with one of this and one of that.

My thinking that this is more of a progression then a list of separate tendencies comes from observing others as well as me, and given time, seeing tendencies of progression. It isn't a learned progression, nor truly a progression at all but further stages of the same. By being transgender, we are born with brain function which provides us with the alternate view of the world, a feminine world. As nature would have it, even though we are born with female brain the variation of femaleness within it differs greatly because of a natural and factual process seen every where around us. More or less feminine females are everywhere, it is just a natural diversity.

Our need to express femaleness is paramount, but the level in which we project it is individually personal. It may start with fetishistic yet simple panties under your jeans, it may manifest it self so strongly in a 7 year old that she wants nothing else but be a girl she is, right now! The realm of possibility is as vast as are transgender.

Progression happens when slow deliberate want drives us to uncover yet another layer of our selves, the unconscious process hides our tendencies to protect our conscious ego and allows us to function well within programmed ways of the society. It is mostly the pressure of this society that put a stopper on our immediate embrace of transgenderism. Hypothetically, given the full freedom and no consequences in discovering who we really are, most of us would venture within one minute outside our doors fully dressed and feeling as though we belong.

Not everyone would go into body modification, in fact I tend to think that the process which stifles and halts our ability to feel whole just the way we are may be a culprit. It may be possible that if we were given freedom to discover all about our selves at the young age and not suppress our feminine feelings, we would be way more comfortable with our selves and perhaps some would not go as far as FFS or SRS because we would be loved, accepted and feeling whole just the way we are.

Yet again, this is my observation, feel free to tear into it and point any false or misleading direction.
I love this process of discovery and need to venture further to understand who I am and what the heck am I made of ( of course I already know it is all pixie dust

[NicoleScott]

Not to get into definition discussions (again), but we're not all "transgendered", that is, having a feminine identity rather than using the word as an umbrella term for any kind of gender-crossing behavior. Dressing for pleasure is not a stage on the way to transition. It just is what it is. Wives, like mine, that accept my dressing for pleasure, might be alarmed to think that it doesn't end there. But in my case and others, it starts and ends there.
I also don't think that a transsexual starts out anywhere but at transsexual. That's just based on what I've read, not personal experience. Want personal experience? See what Rianna has to say about it (#21).

Lastly, this whole categorization thing is a problem in many areas. People are often categorized into ethnic groups like Caucasian or African-American, but what do people do when they are somewhere in the middle? What percentage of African genes do you need to be African American? The Unites States is well-know for being a "melting pot" of mixing ethnic groups, but we still have these categories on many documents. In some ways, ethnic classification is stupid because it is so ambiguous. However, there are many cultural differences and racism still exists, so the differences are real. Also, they are smart enough to include some "Other" or "No Comment" options and don't force you to pick one, as is done with male/female or LGBTIQS classification.

Shortly after my child was born, I had to answer some questions to complete some government form. Race? Well, I said, I am Caucasian and my wife is Asian. So, the government worker asked, what is your child? Half Caucasian and half Asian, I responded. "Pick one!", she said. I guess that's still how some people think about sex and gender, too.

By the way, if people want to be called African-American, that's fine. But it's a term that's based on geography and doesn't describe or define race. If a black native Nigerian moved to the U.S., he would be African-American. His twin brother moves to London, what is he? I wonder if Australian aboriginies get ticked when called African-American? Just seems like the wrong term to me.

[Pythos]

I wonder if Australian aboriginies get ticked when called African-American? Just seems like the wrong term to me.

They do, I have first hand knowledge. It now reinforces my lack of use of race terms when describing someone unless I absolutely have to.