On my mind ... are we trying too hard?

[PaulaQ]

JessM. is totally right. Transitioning is a no-win scenario for a couple - at least if you define "win" as "staying together as a man and a wife."

The important thing to think of is your child, and you need to take care of yourself so that you can take care of her.

Whatever happens, your wife will get over it. Your child? If you totally break down, or do something really desperate and kill yourself, your kid won't recover well from that. Not at all. Yeah, it will suck for your wife no matter what you do. (Stay as you are? She has to live with your miserable ass, or bail if she can't take it. Transition - yeah, she gets to live with a woman, or bail, if she can't handle it. Die? Yeah, she'll get over it. That's the worst - but spouses recover from this.)

As for you, transitioning is hard. You get everything you want? How can that be a "lose"? Yes, you get to live an authentic life. You also get to experience prejudice that you've almost certainly never experienced in your life. Depending on your situation and luck, this can either be no big deal, or incredibly challenging. (But trust me - even if you are VERY privileged, you'll experience some of this.)

Your mutual "win" needs to be having the best life you can have for your child, given the limitations of your situation. Her individual "win" is to move on with her life. Yours is to live the best life you can as your true self, and to be there for your daughter.

It's a tough break for everyone, hon.

[ReineD]

Chelsea, you say that you are seeing a therapist. Is this a gender therapist and what does he/she have to say about your wife's compromises?

[ChelseaAnn]

Yes, I guess that's probably what my wife sees. Sure there's prejudice and such, but I suppose she sees that I win no matter what.

And Paula, lol, I have a son. I'm not sure if I mixed up my words somewhere, but I had a laugh over that. I really hope that my wife can see that I can be a good parent, I don't have to be a good father.

The biggest issue for me is my wife's views on things. She is a very open minded individual, unlike her parents and sister (very old school... VERY!). Anyway, my wife has two friends who are a lesbian couple, and they have a child (it is one of theirs from a marriage). They are great parents, and my wife can see that, so I'm an constantly asking myself "why can't our son have two moms like their child?" She is constantly saying (especially with our current situation, or "deal") that she wants our son to be able to have a father figure. That is why I can be Chelsea full time, but when he needs a father figure, I need to be there.... ??? So, I'm guessing that her saying that is more of her saying "I need a man in my laugh." That's only my assumption, but her views on what marriage and a family are contradict our situation. So... idk.

I want to be a good co-parent/mother. (Honestly, sometimes I feel like a housewife, but that's another issue with our marriage...). I just wish my wife would see that I don't need to be male to be a good.... hm, masculine figure? I can be a good mother. And yes, Jess, I do agree with you. I feel that I could be a better parent if I was to transition, because I would be the woman I know I am.


EDIT: I am not currently seeing a therapist Reine. However, when I was seeing my therapist, she supported the original compromise back in August (because I had gone along with it as well). However, when I started transition therapy, she told me I had to be honest with my wife and tell her that this is what I needed. ... Wish I was still in therapy. I'd probably be ready to transition soon. However, I do see certain advantages in waiting.


Also, I should note that Pennsylvania is currently working on our equality law, to add transgender to the list of protected statuses for housing, apartment leases, work, etc. The city I work in does have this in place, but I'm not sure if that is for all places of employment, or just the city's employees. Anyone else have a similar law near where they work?

[PaulaQ]

Sorry about misgendering your son! I misread the thread. Also - I deal with so many trans women that the feminine pronoun set just sort of gets stuck in my head sometimes. This causes me problems in other contexts too.

Having friends who are lesbians, and living a life where others view you as a lesbian, or even being in a lesbian relationship yourself are two entirely different things. My wife would've been GREAT if our best friend had come out as trans. Her own husband? No freaking way!

Yes, your wife wants a man in her life, simple as that. Hey, it shouldn't be a surprise - she married one, after all. Is she trying to use your son - and maybe a future child - as leverage? Yeah, I think so.

[MatildaJ.]

I really hope that my wife can see that I can be a good parent, I don't have to be a good father...She is constantly saying that she wants our son to be able to have a father figure.

Your son does have two mothers. You don't need your wife's permission; you already are a woman. Why not try brainstorming with your wife about other male figures who can play a strong role in your son's life. Does he have uncles who live nearby? Do you or your wife have close male friends who could play that role? Or she can start dating and look for a nice guy who might eventually make a good stepdad for your son.

[ChelseaAnn]

Oh heck yeah. My brother of course. My father is very involved in my son's life already. Most of my friends are male.
I think I want to give it some more time, only because I promised I would. We are planning a trip to Disney for the end of the year, so I'd hate to ruin our relationship before that. I told her the other day that I want to reevaluate our relationship after Christmas. That's where I'll stand for now. However, your continued advice is appreciated.

[MatildaJ.]

You can't "ruin" the relationship by being your authentic self. You can only make the connection better by being clear, consistent, and honest about who you really are. More individual therapy would probably help with that.

Also, remember that your son won't get much out of the Disney experience until he's about 3. And if you go then, be prepared to go on "It's a Small World" about 100,000 times in a row. I kid you not.

[busker]

Encourage her to date other people, and remind her that you will also be dating other people. Assuming that part of your relationship is over, you'll each need to start taking care of those needs with other people. And keep going to therapy -- you will still have issues as long as you're putting off your transition. I think it will be wiser for you to understand that your professional choices are behind your delayed transition. Your co-parent is not the roadblock.

Jess, seems to me that this is REALLY jumping the gun. ChelseaAnn has NOT figured out what her present circumstances are and you suggest getting into ANOTHER situation with another person who will ultimately have the same problems. I don't think under the circumstances that starting another fire when you haven't put the first one out is really wise.
I don't know ChelseaAnn's background but I'm a little surprised that after having seen a video, she has determined that she NEEDS to transition. Wasn't that known before? Is this some sort of rationalization dealing with a gender issue? I understand there is a lot of confusion and angst with GD but I am suspicious about the motives and origins. Also, I'm curious about the "job protection" claim as a temporary barrier. If the feelings are that strong, then I would think that getting the GD fixed would be of paramount importance. There is likely a good chance that the job will disappear shortly after transition anyway, laws or not. Businesses tend to be GOP and right of center on most social issues and it is doubtful the company will want to deal with a TS, though obviously there are transitioned girls that do work. There is the matter of child support and alimony and many other things, not least of which is the DESIRE to procreate one more time. Who benefits from that? Certainly NEITHER of the children who will be fatherless at the very least. This sounds like a very poorly thought out plan if it is one, but according to ChelseaAnn, "we'll just see what happens I guess" seems to be the play at the moment. everyone wants to accepted for who they are, but how about first being the ADULT they should be and then worry about acceptance.

[PaulaQ]

Jess, seems to me that this is REALLY jumping the gun. ChelseaAnn has NOT figured out what her present circumstances are and you suggest getting into ANOTHER situation with another person who will ultimately have the same problems. I don't think under the circumstances that starting another fire when you haven't put the first one out is really wise.

Don't they set fires to sometimes stop other fires?
The thing about being trans is you have to realize - once you start transition, you are flipping the bird to all of society's conventions. Nobody cares if you are trans and poly, or trans and bi, or whatever - they don't get past the freak out over the "trans" part.

Wasn't that known before? Is this some sort of rationalization dealing with a gender issue? I understand there is a lot of confusion and angst with GD but I am suspicious about the motives and origins.

Say what? Nobody in their right mind is motivated to have GD - please believe me on that. I'd rather be waterboarded, because at least that ends, one way or another!

There is likely a good chance that the job will disappear shortly after transition anyway, laws or not. Businesses tend to be GOP and right of center on most social issues and it is doubtful the company will want to deal with a TS, though obviously there are transitioned girls that do work.

Um, wrong. The job usually vanishes either:
1. The minute you come out at work and start transition there
2. If you are *really* unlucky, about 1/2 way through your transition, where you no longer pass well as either gender.
Young transitioners tend to work for smaller companies with bigoted mindsets often times - or places that realize that young employees are generally vulnerable and easy to screw with. Older transitioners often kiss entire careers goodbye.

Once you've transitioned, if you are very passable, you can go stealth, and your employer really never has to know unless you choose to reveal it.

Certainly NEITHER of the children who will be fatherless at the very least.

Either Chelsea or her wife could remarry, finding a nice guy who'd be a great Dad. I mean, sure, having two moms and two step-dads is a little weird, but it's not THAT much weirder than have mom+step-dad and dad+step-mom.

everyone wants to accepted for who they are, but how about first being the ADULT they should be and then worry about acceptance.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Can you clarify this?

[ChelseaAnn]

Um, I'm sorry busker, but I think you were a bit off the mark.
You can't quote something from way back in the conversation without taking into account what she just said...

As for your points, I will help you out.
1. If you had read the entire convo, you would have seen the updates on things, such as my decision to stick with how we are right now. I am not looking to create a worse situation. If it is to be, that day will come. Right now, as my last post said, I am sticking with our current situation.
2. As per the "video" comment, I had been having trans issues. I didn't realize what they were fully, nor did I realize there was a way to fix them. The transition video was a realization that there were options to deal with my condition, and also a realization that I didn't have to hide it for the rest of my life. I don't know why you are "suspicious about motives and origins." I have been dealing with this since I was 15, for your origin question, and my motive is to be the woman I should be. End of story.
3. I'm not sure why you are confused about job protection. It is simple math. Transition costs money. Without a job, I have no money. Not to mention the potential for divorce increases without a job. If I were my wife, and the transition got my spouse fired, I would question their common sense. So, without a job, I would be unable to transition, hence having two problems instead of one. Or, as you put in your words, starting another fire before putting out the first.
4. As per the child issue, the PROCREATE as you put it, I did point out at some point in the convo (if you had actually read the whole thing) that I do not desire to have another child under the current circumstances. I suppose searching through for negatives will cause you to skip over those things.
5. I am, upon reading near the ending of your post, SURPRISED you are on this site at all. I don't know if you're CD, trans (I doubt, since you don't seem to understand the issues), or an SO, but the requirement to have a father is not, in this day and age, a requirement anymore. Fatherless? I hope you don't have any children....

You know what, it's just easier to say that you obviously didn't read the whole conversation, as you would have seen the development of the issue, and found that things are a whole lot better now after multiple people's advice and some thought. I encourage you to read the entire thing next time, instead of pulling random quotes out that can be taken out of context when not paired with the rest of the post. Honestly, you sound like a newspaper that quotes just to get a story. "Blah blah blah .... (six paragraphs later) blah blah blah." And that is why he is a bad person, never mind the six paragraphs of his speech that we didn't bother to include, because it contradicts the story we're writing.


EDIT: also, Paula, just to drive this busker insane, as per his "fatherless" comment, I'm a lesbian. Don't do that guy thing. Thought about it, but couldn't imagine any of it. Also, I think the last thing you quoted, busker is trying to point out that I am a bad adult, and I should have never gotten married, and never had a child since I did not take responsibility for my trans issues (which he clearly points out I should have COMPLETELY understood when I first had them), therefore, I am a bad adult, never mind having a son I love, a wife I am trying to remain with, a house, a steady job, health insurance, a car which is almost paid off, best friends I can count on to help me out at any moment, I can go on. But, since I'm trans, and I'm having trouble with that, yes, I am a bad adult.

[busker]

Paula, yes they do set fires to fight fires, but they are set by people who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING (not shouting, just emphasis). With a couple who seemed confused about their direction, i would say it is NOT a good idea to start a fire. What I meant by the Video remark was that did it take a video to make it obvious about the GD/transition, and if one knows what one is, then it shouldn't TAKE a video to open ones eyes. Don't know if that is clear or not. In any case, it was not a put down, just something to clarify the issue. The children will be fatherless in that he will not be around to see them grow up on a daily basis--obviously children are NOT fatherless unless born in a test tube but still there is male sperm. Fatherless in the biological/parental sense. step fathers can be good at raising other men's children but I have no personal experience to verify that. I meant by being an adult that sometimes our own happiness and desires have to take a back seat to what needs to be done. In this case, it is the care of a child that has been brought into the world supposedly by parents that WANTED this child. We can choose our friends but not our parents and that puts children at a great disadvantage when the parents decide something else. I'm also a bit taken aback by the talk of Disneyland etc. Is this really something to talk about in the same breath as transitioning? The time and money would be better spent with a psychiatrist I think. and that is said not to be nasty but reality does require something more here than Anaheim California, at least in my opinion. And that is all this is, just opinion.

[ChelseaAnn]

And once again, you took things from various parts of the convo and put them together, plus you made assumptions. Our Disney trip is with my parents, and was planned out when my wife was 2 months pregnant, and nearly a year before I came out. Sigh... I guess we'll have to do this again. While I understand your opinion, I think you need to first think about what you're saying before you decide to post it.

There is no further talk about divorce, or having a second child, etc. I have decided that, so I don't know why you are still talking about starting a new fire. We are currently dealing with the one we have.
As for the video comment.... um, I think you completely ignored my previous post, where I explained my GD experience and such.... I thought it was quite clear, but maybe I'm mistaken.
And back to the fatherless thing, I... wait a second. You are talking about not starting another fire (aka divorce), but you state that I will not be around to see my son grow up. Can you make up your mind? Here you are telling me not to start another fire, but you then write me out of my son's life as if I want to have nothing to do with him. Sorry pal, but wth?
I am looking out for my son's life. I am trying to be a happier person so I can be a better parent. Sometimes, to get to a goal, there are subgoals that are required to achieve the main goal. And, tbh, I do not involve my son in my trans issues.
Finally, how dare you accuse me of not wanting my son. Both myself and my wife PLANNED this pregnancy, and we both love him very much. And please, don't come back with the "you misunderstood what I said." It was pretty blunt on what you said.

You know what, maybe you should just stop talking and keep your opinion to yourself.

[busker]

Um, I'm sorry busker, but I think you were a bit off the mark.
You can't quote something from way back in the conversation without taking into account what she just said...
EDIT: also, Paula, just to drive this busker insane, as per his "fatherless" comment, I'm a lesbian..

ChelseaAnn, you can be what you want to be and I'm not offended in the least about you thinking you are a lesbian.
If I read correctly, this thread began yesterday and over the course of 24 hours you have gone form one stance to a totally different one. I didn't intentionally pick out 'negative" remarks, you wrote them yourself, I merely copied them. sorry for your sad state affairs, and I do wish you the best for you and your family.
JUST A CD, no more no less.