Transgender = Transsexual ???? Since When?

[Dana44]

I saw on another site what to calls us crossdressers as many did not like that term. The Crossdress folks did not want to be called transgender. So a vote was put forth and what came back was that the crossdress person does not like that term crossdresses and if you are not gay. Then the term would be transvestite meaning that a male is in woman's clothes exposing themselves. They all liked that better.

In Houston, every year they have the art festival on Montrose street which is a gay community . The transvestite dressed folk that were there were totally surrounded by men asking them questions. They had the most focus than most of the art. Some of them were totally beautiful. It was site to see.

[Bria]

As always Jorja makes perfect sense. One is transsexual during the transition and when that process is over then one is just woman (mtf) and no longer transanything.

However, that perfect logic throws another complication in to the communication process, try to get the media to understand that and use it correctly.

When I first joined this site, as a cd, I was not comfortable with applying the term transgender to myself, somehow it just didn't seem right or descriptive. Over time I have come to a more comfortable feeling of the term as an umbrella term that includes me. The problem with umbrella term is just what falls under that umbrella? Try and get the media to understand and use it correctly.

My 2 cents.

Hugs, Bria

[reb.femme]

I'm with you Nadine, in noticing a standard generalisation that TG and TS are synonymous. This discussion could go on for ages and I'm not prepared for the usual sword fight that that entails, but I'm happy to be described as either trans or transgendered and explain the subtle differences of TG and TS to people (as I see it) thereafter.

...The Genderbook, btw, is licensed under the Creative Commons principle so can be legally used in this way. )Katey x

Spot the person that works in Marketing with the associated legal connotations. But a damn good shout from Katey though, being a student of Brit law myself.

Rebecca LLB (Hons)

[Ivy]

As you all explain here are my thoughts. Yes, labels are for canned fruit. That way you know what fruit you are getting. Now I will explain:

Humans have a need to catergorize and place things into compartments. In that we give people that are liken to a specfic way a name. Why? It is what we have been trained to do. It has been pushed further through studies in phsycology and sociology. Everything has to have a label, so that you can fit in it compartment. We are fools when we do this. No person is yhe same as another. We are all unique and interesting in our own right. If you are going to label me, go ahead, my label is IVY and I am beautiful to me

[Nadine Spirit]

Yes Ivy, I have heard the label argument before.

But you do realize that you yourself used labels for things other than fruit right?

As in:
- human
- people
- person
- fools
- compartments
- name
- psychology
- sociology

These things are all just words. Words meant to describe something, not to stuff square people into round holes.

[reb.femme]

Nadine!, are you reading my mind and writing for me? Of course we use labels for convenience to give a quick and easy description of an item and then explain the finer points thereafter, if asked to elucidate.

This also highlights the sword fighting I alluded to earlier. Good luck Miss (oops, label alert) and keep your shield up.

Rebecca

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Nadine,
Both words have definitions, thanks to Miriam Webster, or whatever
dictionary you may choose to look them up in, they are there. I don't see one replacing the other ever happening.
Society may get them confused, and not consider the "big picture" when they use either of the two.
But I think as the public gains more knoledge, and hopeful greater acceptance, some new terminology will
come along that may make the differences among the TG community more clear.
As it stands, the TG umbrella does cover us all.
TS has bee around a lot longer than TG (20 some years).
Just sayin' , things change, usually for the better.
Much Love
Kristyn

[Kaitlyn Michele]

ok here's the deal..

stop calling transsexuals transgendered...

if you don't, i will personally tell all your wives that i am transgendered as you call it...and that i've been transgendered since i was 6 and that i got married had kids and then like most transgendered people i "decided" to "go all the way" and transition while my kids were in high school

might as well call the divorce lawyer now...

oh wait wasn't there an entire massive thread filled with cross dressers complaining about all the misinformation spread by us transsexuals about how cd's are really budding transsexuals...

[Badtranny]

Yikes.

Sometimes Transsexual and Transgender are interchangeable and sometimes's they're not. Who cares? It certainly doesn't concern me one way or the other and I don't have a good track record in discussions with people that concern themselves with such things. For example, the word Tranny has now become a slur in some circles. Woe to the broad who tries to police my use of this term, but the word Transsexual is also falling out of favor for the more broadly used Transgender so when will the policing of those terms start?

Here on this forum we have made a distinction, but since I've been a member here, even those distinctions are beginning to be blurred. We now have TS's that don't want to actually transition, and in some cases we have even redefined the word Transition to the extent that someone who is 'transitioning' has no plans to change their name. If we can't even delineate between terms on a forum like this, how in the world do we expect Joe Public to make any distinctions at all?

For those of you who think that owning the word Transgender will make your lives and relationships easier, you're just fooling yourselves. If your wife is conflating Bruce's use of Transgender with your use, then just say "I'm not that kind of transgender", because trying to explain the apparently fine difference between TG and TS so your wife can understand it is an exercise in futility. Isn't it all just a continuum anyway? The prevailing wisdom on this board is that TG is on one end, and TS is on the other, so that being the case, where do you put yourself on the spectrum?

Better question; Where do you put yourself on the spectrum HERE and where do you put yourself in discussions with your wife? If you tell your wife that you are TG and NOT like Bruce, but you come here and make impassioned arguments about how you should be included in the TS discussions then you my friend have bigger problems than Bruce.

The brutal truth is none of these 'labels' have anything to do with real life. For those of us who endure these issues in the light of day, the words allies use to describe us is of little consequence. It's all better than the words I grew up hearing. :-)

[Ivy]

It is hard not to use labels. That is part of my point. It is not the square peg in the round hole, but the right peg in the right hole. That is why I say each of us are different. I am me just as well as you are you. Why label that?

[Marcelle]

Hi Nadine,

For those who think labels are for soup cans . . . hey I resemble that remark

Okay, I admit I hate labels even though I use them myself and as I become more public the use of the umbrella term (kind of sounds very Resident Evil . . . nasty Umbrella Corporation) has allowed me to explain to and educate many what TG means to me. Now before anyone goes off half cocked . . . I said means to me, not you, not the other person or the person down the street but to me.

Yes, people confuse the terms and when I say I am transgender I get the old . . . so you are like Bruce J . . . going to get the old snip, snip? It is at that point that I educate and explain what the umbrella term, spectrum, whatever you want to call it means. I let them know that on one side you have Cross dressers who enjoy dressing up in whatever suits their fancy and that does it for them. On the other side you have Trans women/men who feel out of sorts with their body in that their birth sex does not match their gender identity and they take measures (not always the same measures) to bring balance to their lives. In between those two points you have a whole host of individuals at varying stages. I (again folks this is me, not you) lie somewhere on the spectrum where at times my gender identity does not match my birth sex and I require the latitude to express that gender difference by dressing and presenting as a woman both in my private and public life. However, my guy side also requires the same latitude.

Hugs

Isha.

[Lori Kurtz]

So if I call a stapler a banana that is fine as long I prefer that?
...
Like it or not, words have definitions, regardless of we feel about them and regardless of what we mean when we use them.

... Generally all it takes is usage among the populace.

Absolutely true. But there's widespread--probably unanimous--agreement among the populace about the usages of the words "stapler" and "banana." Usages of the words to describe people like us, on the other hand, are not even agreed upon by us on this site, as this thread demonstrates; much less among the general populace. And for people like us, there is a lot more emotional energy tied to those words than "stapler" and "banana."

The result is that when we use words like "transgender" or "transsexual" or "crossdresser" or "gender non-conforming" or other related words, we can't assume that either the general populace or our own sisters here will understand what we mean. I have no solution to this problem. All I know for sure is that whether we have some agreement among ourselves or not, we should be kind to each other. Who else can we count on to be kind to us?

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

I think this whole thread exemplifies why the problem exists. Since those who experience life outside of "normal" gender associations all want to use their own terms to describe themselves and their point of view, there is no standard definition for Transgender anymore. As has been pointed out, today's media no longer wishes to take the time to explain nuance to an audience with the attention span of a gnat, so they went with the definition provided by a vocal sub-group, transexuals who objected to the term feeling it distracted from the seriousness of their experience. So if anyone is looking to blame anyone for this state of confusion there is enough to go around.

I think Isha's position is best. Let people who hear the word transgender ask if you are planning to transition then take the time to explain the broader meaning and how it applies to you. It can be exhausting and feel like you are having the same conversation over and over again, but it represents an opportunity to build a relatinship with a person that may lead to greater acceptance.

[Ivy]

The point I put, is that we will be labeled in our different, for lack of a word I like, flavors. I see in fighting over words. Have we not all been called things we would not want to remember. I am me you are you. Yes we are different, that is what makes us us. Labels define and divide at the same time. Am I going to go as far as you, no, not right now. Do I dislike you for where you are, at times no, yes at times a twing of envie! All of us have to face each day and deal with what it brings, yes the bad with the good. If we live with a simple rule, that most in the world forget.

My rights end where yours begin!!

[flatlander_48]

It's the equivalent of "black" and "African American." It's the new political correctness without understanding. It just sounds nicer. By the way, my buddy from Jamaica hates "African American" because that umbrella misrepresents him!

No it isn't equivalent. There is nothing inherently wrong with using a hyphenated structure but it devolves into all sorts of dumbass questions like "Is a White Person From Africa an African-American?". All this does is send a potentially useful conversation down a ridiculous and unprofitable path. Sometimes I think people do that on purpose rather than have a substantive discussion.

It comes down to political correctness. The media thinks that by calling a transsexual, transgender, they will not offend anyone. It sounds better. What they do not understand is that today I am a woman, I was a transsexual, and before that I fell into the transgender umbrella somewhere.

For me, it doesn't matter. I transitioned at a time when these terms were just starting to be used. I haven't been either transgender nor transsexual for a very, very long time. Guess what? I am still a woman just like any other. Just don't call me late for dinner!

Political correctness is a myth. The real root of this is the superficial and prudish attitude held in the US regarding sexuality. It makes it very difficult for us to use the word SEX in a conversation without giving rise to prurient interests.

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

The real root of this is the superficial and prudish attitude held in the US regarding sexuality.

The reason I don't like to use the word "transsexual" has nothing to do with prudishness. I'm not a prude. I don't think people in the trans-rights movement are prudes either. And while the attitudes about sexuality in the US are superficial, I don't think that has much to do with it either.

A lot of trans people are rejecting the term "transsexual" for a number of reasons:
1. By it's name, it tends to conflate gender identity / expression with sexual orientation. There are massive issues with this already, and we don't need to add to them.

2. My sex won't change after GCS. I'll sure as hell be a trans woman. I'm still genetically male. I'll still need a prostate exam, although the doctor will have to perform it vaginally. I'll also need a mammogram. Medically, I'm not precisely male, and not precisely female. It sucks, but it's the best science can do. (I'd loved to have done this 30 years ago, and been able to carry a child to term. But that just wasn't in the cards during my lifetime. It's not possible even now.)

3. Trying to define even a concept like "sex" as a binary is part of the problem because of intersexed people. Quite a few of us are also intersexed. It is best to just entirely remove the visible biological characteristics of the person in question from the equation of gender.

4. None of that, what genitals I have, how many hormones I take, or whether I take them, should matter. Look, we can't decide on this forum who's "just a CD", vs. "who's going to transition". So maybe to some people's minds CDs (for example) deserve no legal protection - they are male identified, male bodied, so to hell with them! But you know what? It's really damned hard to differentiate between a CD and a trans woman who's just started her transition, and it is completely unreasonable to force the trans woman to show a note from her doctor every time she wants to pee in a public restroom. So for this reason alone, I'd rather see all of us lumped into one, protected category than divided in cruel and arbitrary ways that would end up hurting people who would define themselves as "transsexual" anyway! Because our interests intersect, and that's good enough for me. (Plus I like CDs and other non-transitioning, non-binary trans people. I think they deserve rights too.)

5. The term "transsexual" was cooked up by cisgender people. Well meaning cisgender people, but still, they didn't have a freaking clue what any of this feels like. They shouldn't get to define us.

6. The focus on medical transition inherent in the term transsexual is problematical, because it creates all sorts of excuses for cis people to tie our identity documentation or other legal matters to our surgical status. This is an intolerable cruelty, and this alone is good reason to never use this term.

I don't actually care if referring to us all under a big umbrella term like "transgender" makes any individual uncomfortable. I don't. Tough. This is bigger than whatever little personal issue you might have with terminology. Look, I don't actually like the fact that people who medically transition like me don't really have a name to use. I actually fit the term "transsexual" pretty well. It feels a little like erasure. At least until I realize that in the bad old days, if you could transition at all, you had a number of hurdles to overcome, all setup by cis people:
- you had to be passable before HRT
- you had to be able to stay employed during transition
- you had to be highly feminine, binary gender aligned
- you had better freaking be straight, or lie about it
- you had better tell them the story they wanted to hear, or the gate would close on you

So no, I don't care a thing for the term "transsexual" anymore. This is an inaccurate term steeped in a horrible history.

[Jenniferathome]

So if I call a stapler a banana that is fine as long I prefer that? ....

Makes one really think about the age old question: "Is that a banana in your pocket?"

[Lorileah]

The main reason for 'labels' as you all call them is communication. It allows people to talk to one another without adding definitions. That's why we use Latin in law and medicine, it's dead an d never changes but if a lawyer speaks to another lawyer using a Latin term, they BOTH have the same reference. If I speak to another medical professional using a Latin term, we BOTH know what I am talking about. Simple.

If we decide we don't want to use a term as it has been agreed upon, we end up...I dunno arguing what a term means? Case in point 40+ posts.

One post said that transsexuals change sex...no we change GENDER. Sex is defined by the genome and in most cases we are XY and that doesn't change (BTW Paula...they need to check the prostate through the vagina? When did it move?"


Another (several) claimed TSs are WOMEN...OK, I'll buy that but why can't you be a TG too? After all, you still have the genome.

Another says that to the general world, the word transgender reads as transsexual and CDs are TVs. and you say either and I say I-ther. But if you use that argument, the majority of people not in the community also thing every CD here is a Drag Queen. and gay.

After surgery, physically I will be a woman...not a female. I think Paula pointed this out well. I will still have the propensity for diseases that males get AND I will be at risk for diseases that females get because of hormone, not genetics. The CDs here won't be at risk for the hormonal but will be for any genetic...So, there is a variance (for you engineers in the audience).

Media may use the word "Transgender" because they don't have all the facts. They may not KNOW if the person had GID or was on hormones or actually considered themselves the opposite GENDER. They don't really care about that distinction unless it is pertinent to whatever story they are telling. In journalism we were taught to write on an 8th grade level because that was the average. Again to MOST people transgender individuals are Drag Queens, fetishists, strange, mentally ill all the above OR they are transitioning. You speak to the lowest common denominator because your audience doesn't have the same point of reference you do.

I am comfortable with being transgender (although that is not correct grammatically) or as a transsexual or as a transitioning person. The use of MtF seems redundant usually because it is obvious WHERE I am going.

So, we get down to this. What DOES it matter? If you get your point across using a slightly incorrect (as far as convention) term it really doesn't

Try this. If I said I have a tumor...you would think????Cancer, right? Yet they aren't the same, Many would think "Malignant" cancer on top of that, and that is even further from being right. OK, here is the way that works "What's the difference between Cancer and Tumor? Tumors are sometimes cancerous but this does not mean that tumors and cancers are synonyms." Not synonyms...In a clinical view transgender and transsexual are NOT synonyms. But they are used interchangeably. Maybe more distinct, remember SAT tests One question was always If A=B and B sometimes = C is A=C?


Have a nice summer vacation, we'll see you in school next fall

[PaulaQ]

Lori, here's what trans bodies / trans selves says about prostate exams for trans women:

If a prostate exam is performed on a trans woman who has had vaginoplasty, a finger inserted into the vagina may offer a better exam than a finger inserted into the rectum because the prostate sits on top of the vagina instead of directly on top of the rectum . Providers may perform this exam in a manner similar to a gynecologic exam for cisgender women: lying with stomach facing up, with feet in adjustable brackets (“ stirrups”), and knees spread slightly apart

[Vickie_CDTV]

This is nothing new, and the gradual move to replace "transsexual" with "transgender" has been happening for a long time. Even the trans community is "guilty" of this.

Why does the media do this? The same reason they use all politically correct language; so they can feel good about themselves for being all inclusive and tolerant and whatnot, despite the fact it really helps no one or accomplishes anything productive.

[kimdl93]

It's simply a matter of the writers making careless use of the terminology. The same thing happens so often here that I have given up on correcting each misuse of the term.

[Nadine Spirit]

Ah yes, careless use of terminology. I think it might have been when I first joined here that I read over the sticky on terms used here and their meanings. When I read transgender defined as an umbrella term, I said, cool that works, and I have seen it defined as such most other places as well.

Btw, great discussion here folks. Thanks to everyone who has joined in. I love discussions that force me to think, consider stuff, and ponder other viewpoints.

[sometimes_miss]

The older term "transvestite" is considered derogatory by many in the United States.

It's not that it's derogitory, but the term was mostly used in the past to refer to a man who wore female clothing either as a sexual turn on for himself or to attract other men. As such, it misrepresented a large percentage of us. So the 'crossdresser' tag became more widely used, at least online since the early 90's. Transvestite is essentially the exact same thing by definition, but how people use it is something else entirely.

So if I call a stapler a banana that is fine as long I prefer that?

As long as it's ok with the stapler and the rest of the bananas!

As you all explain here are my thoughts. Yes, labels are for canned fruit. That way you know what fruit you are getting.

Of course, you do know that the connotation 'fruit' in America is a slang for gay, right? It's one reason I use the word food instead of fruit when I use this example.

ok here's the deal..stop calling transsexuals transgendered...
<snip>
oh wait wasn't there an entire massive thread filled with cross dressers complaining about all the misinformation spread by us transsexuals about how cd's are really budding transsexuals...

The whole thing can only be rectified with education. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, which this whole argument exemplifies: When trying to use a more politically correct term without knowing exactly what you are saying it's easy to screw it up royally and wind up saying something completely different from what you want to convey.

It is hard not to use labels.

It's not that it's hard not to, it's that our society insists upon using them. People do not want to have to discuss everything in multiple paragraphs stuck into every sentence they speak or write just to explain one object. They want a term, in one word, that tells the person they're talking to what they're referring to. They want a standard. That's all. What we're going through right now is the same as what blacks are going through with all the african, african american, black, caribbean american, colored, jamaican american, negro, people OF color, and all the other assorted terms that are constantly bandied about in the media. We had one and there was nothing wrong with it until somebody didn't like it. Now no one knows what word/words to use to the extent that you will often see multiple different choices for it being used in the same sentence. I'm white. So is a guy from Moscow. And so is a white guy who's dad and grandparents were born in the middle of the Congo. He's not 'european african'. He's white. Etc.. We don't need another mess like that one. That's why labels are needed, and they need to be generally accurate.

[Pat]

I was wondering if this is something specific to us and then realized there's a perfect analog: cop. To the general public anyone with almost any kind of police authority is a cop. It doesn't matter if it's a patrolman, a detective or an FBI Special Agent. And I'll bet the FBI agents probably feel pretty strongly that they've distinguished themselves and don't deserve to be summed up as "cops." And there are a ton of cops -- state police, postal inspectors, railroad police, tribal police -- all different. But cop is an umbrella term; a collective noun used loosely by the uninitiated, but I'll bet refined and redefined unceasingly by the people it refers to.

[Megan G]

Here is an article I read today that applies to this thread. It's all about cross dressers being lumped under the transgender umbrella and the effects of it on the transgender (or transsexual, however you want to say it) rights movement.

http://montrealgazette.com/life/rede...erogatory-term

In the article it points out one of the reasons that a bill had been stalled here in Canada regarding washroom rights.

Megan