@Smile
Walk 40+ miles...I mean years...in my shoes and you'll see how one can survive, and even thrive. This is in spite of a common thread of pain that many of us share.
I've said before, putting a gun in my mouth at some point isn't a requirement. That doesn't get anyone a patch on their vest to demonstrate how trans they are.
Am I not real either???
Last edited by Katey888; 06-19-2015 at 07:46 AM. Reason: Expletives deleted
Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)
I began to have my "Death thoughts" in my 40's... i always thought i was a cross dresser....i coped with being female by compartmentalizing and being highly functioning as a guy.. this lasted until i couldn't take it anymore... i left my job and transitioned...i''m 53 next week...i'm very real
samantha you are making stuff up.... posting assumptions you've made that have no substance..
Caitlyn Jenner may or may not have co morbid mental health issues ...and Caitlyn jenner surely enjoys limelight and success in lots of ways including $$
so what.. It couldnt be more obvious that she suffered gender dysphoria , everybody knew for quite some time...there is no controversy around motives ...
the only real controversy seems to be whether she is a good role model..
Social transitioning is the biggest part to it. We got here from a male life and did not have the life shaping lessons that a Cis female has had. However,we have had other lessons as a male...Transitioning socially requires you to give up a lot of what males take as "theirs" and try to learn it from the other side.....The learning lessons will never end..Originally Posted by stefan37
No, it isn't a requirement at all. In fact I am always happy to hear about the folks who transition without reaching the point of "transition or die." Goddammit, nobody should ever reach such a point of desperation. That nearly half of us do is a tragedy.
Last edited by Katey888; 06-19-2015 at 07:46 AM.
I did not reach that point where it was transition or die. I had this inner urge to feminize myself and show that to the world. I felt like i was on a runway train and had lost control of my life. I've always had some anxiety, but it reached a level where it became intolerable. I didn't understand the underlying cause of my anxiety. I may even have been able to live as some of you in the middle. But that internal urge was strong and with the help of my therapist I dug deep and was honest with myself. It was then I felt the best course to obtain my life back was to start actively transitioning. I started hormones and 3 days later my anxiety was not just muted as it was with pharma's. But it was gone. My desire to drink and do drugs gone with it. I have been full-time 2 years and despite the losses and challenges my quality of life has improved exponentially. By the was I turned 58 this year.
Last edited by stefan37; 06-19-2015 at 07:41 AM.
"When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes
"Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation
"A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W
I guess I am ok then since I was 38 before I got to that transition or die moment. And yes getting to that stage does suck, I am not going to relive those thoughts..
But to address the comment about questioning anyone over 40 that transitions. Until you have walked 40 years in these women's shoes you will not understand the fortitude it took to keep pressing on in a life that felt wrong (speaking from experience).
I kept telling myself if I just did this or if I just did that I would be able to make these feelings go away.
I can relate to Caitlyn Jenners story on a very personal level. While I did not become the worlds greatest athlete I did focus all of my energy and monetary resources from the age of 15 to 28 into the sport of motocross, and I became very successful. It took a great deal of focus, dedication and energy to get to the pro ranks and that enabled me to distract myself from my gender issues for those years. Sure there were moments that it crept back in just to remind me that my gender dysphoria was still there but that usually made me push harder to try and erase them.
Then I got injured and was told that I would never race at that level again I shifted that energy into my career like many others did. It got me thru another decade but as each year went by it became more increasing difficult to live the lie I was living.
So yes I am real...
Megan
M G:
Over compensation is a very similar construct for gay people also. Your statement "...if I just did this..." is exactly the same...
DeeAnn
DeeAnn
I am very well aware that it was my overcompensation that got me thru all those years. It was a coping mechanism for me. Along with denial, I kept telling myself that I can't be a transexual as I hunt, fish, race and like women
So yep I am a lesbian as well...
All good now...
reading some of what you say, i think this quote is very helpfully summing up where you are coming from on all this..
Let us all know
How is Stephanie living her simply living her gender identity saying "you're on your own"....it has NOTHING to do with you...it is not ABOUT you....its about solving her medical issue thru transition... how she got there is her own path...it is not dressing up, blending, flowing...its just a medical procedure to solve a huge problem...its a medical transition..how is this a message to anybody????????
also tell me, how is she getting hers? (I've got mine..).... what exactly is she getting?
here's what she gets...she get her gender identity...that's it...regardless of surgery appearance or anything to do with clothes or femininity, she gets to be her...
that's what all transsexuals get... and whether its ok with you or not, I don't look at the world through the lens of what other people have or don't have..i am cheering for everybody especially with regards to their relationship with their gender.. i hope everybody gets everything they want...(just be careful about what you want)
and what is it that Stephanie has that you want??? why would you want what she has?
What can you say in answer to that?? Stephanie is out there 24/7. Living her life and changing opinions and perceptions. Facing a major struggle to be herself.Sorry, but that sounds like "I've got mine. You? You're on your own...".
Amazingly, DeeAnne thinks she is not doing enough. Unlike all the CDs who stay in the shadows who DeeAnne never criticises. I know you go out sometimes DeeAnne but just stop for a moment and compare what you do and what Stephanie does. Then have the decency to apologise.
Last edited by emma5410; 06-19-2015 at 01:46 PM.
As someone FIRMLY in the over-40 category ...
I did it by screwing my life over. Depression (serious, clinical, life threatening), alcohol, divorce, isolation, social anxiety, and a lot more. 3 suicide attempts.
Your statement is built on a lot of assumptions. Rather than cast aspersions on older transitioners and their motives, why don't you think about it then post those thoughts in detail? That would at least be useful.
Caitlyn's recounting of her experiences throughout life in dealing with GD resonated very deeply.
Interesting, as I had a conversation about this earlier today with my wife. Those with whom she has spoken about the Vanity Fair shoot really dislike it from an exploitation point of view. I think there are a variety of reasons Caitlyn has done what she has in the way she has, but there is no doubt it continues the cultural conversation about the exploitation of women's bodies.
Last edited by Katey888; 06-20-2015 at 04:16 AM. Reason: Modified expletive
Lea
First, this is NOT a comparison and it has NOTHING to do with me. Both of you keep trying to do that, but you can quit because it is just silly.
The passage above by s37 appears to be saying that after she has drawn all of the support and goodwill from the community, then the only way for her to go further is by separating herself from that community. It's hard to interpret it otherwise. To me, it doesn't seem to be the right thing to do. Evidently s37 has figured out some things and her transition is progressing. But, by separating herself from the rest of the community, her advice and counsel will largely be lost to others in that community. Evidently as time goes on, it appears she is spending less and less time interacting with the community.
THAT was the point.
I believe that the saying "None of us are free until we are ALL free." is very descriptive of how things really work. Put another way, we must all move forward together.
DeeAnn
None of us are free until we all are free..
this could be said of every person on planet earth...its a noble sentiment...however it is NOT descriptive of how things really work..its not even a little bit close...perhaps its the way things should work..imagine all the people....
in any case, you said what you said...you didnt answer the question..
you clearly think she "got something" ...what did she get?? what exactly should she give back? who exactly is she ignoring?? should she go to a meeting?? give a speech?? I go to some meetings btw...i give speeches...i have laid my heart and soul on the line for dozens of large groups...we go out every moment of every day and lay it on the line..
is living an authentic life in front of everybody around her enough for you??
What you clearly do not understand or appreciate is what a person does when they transition. i can deal with that...you are going to have to deal with it too..
I wish everyone who transitions the ability to "disappear" into the world. It won't happen with me no matter how much surgery etc I try. It won't happen to most TSs. Therefore, I will align with the community even after. If just to help others transition
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
Yes, I did. The following paragraph covered it specifically. And sorry, while I can explain it to you, I cannot understand it for you.
It's curious that this is such a difficult topic for some...
DeeAnn
Last edited by flatlander_48; 06-20-2015 at 06:20 AM.
Just exactly what is it about my perception that I have to limit my social interaction with the Trans community that you do not get? What exactly has the "goodwill and the support of the community" given me? Caitlyn's coming out will my doubt be beneficial to the Trans movement in the future. But for right now has shined a huge fat spotlight on me and my transess. Any hope I had of blending in the shadows for now has vanished. I belong to 2 professional organizations for many years. Many more years as Stephen. I have been full-time close to 2 years. I still get gendered male regardless of the fact I have breasts, show up with makeup and occasionly dresses. Had I a male identity I wouldn't mind. But the whole idea behind transitioning is not only to freely express my identity and live authentically, but to have that identity reflected back.
I am out 24/7 as Stephanie interacting with the general public. I belong to a Sailing club and they have only known me as Stephanie. Yet I still get misgendered. Because I am out publicly as who I am an ambassador for the Trans movement every single hour I interact with the public. Can you say the same?
Let's see what the Trans community has given me. First of I have lost the love of the one person I love more than any other in the entire world. A person I have spent over 35 years building a business and raising 2 kids. My need to be authentic cost me any chance to live out my life with companionship. There is a very good possibility I will live alone the remainder of my life. I have spent to date over 60k out of pocket money to get medical treatment to have any chance of quality of life and to live authentically. I still need another 28k betwenn now to Nov
For scheduled SRS. Major issue with insurance is there are no doctors in network that handle Trans issues. So all the therapy, hormones, endocrinologist and SRS surgeon is all out of pocket. Thankfully my immediate family is accepting if not exactly supportive.
Spending time with Cis individuals especially women has shown there is a huge difference how females interact with each other and the world. A perspective I will not get interacting exclusively of a large part of my time with the Trans community. Those of us late life transitioners( and the majority of transsexuals I meet are later life) are transitioning from a male point of view. Cd's that are part of these support groups are for the most part male identified. So that means that any transitioner that wishes to shall we say unlearn male socializations and learn how to interact with the world as a female will have no chance to do so successfully.
Those of you that are/or have transitioned will know exactly what I am taking about. Those of you that are male identified will not. There is absolutely male privilege. It exists and to successfully integrate as female and have that reflected back. It is imperative we give up that privilege that was bestowed on us only due to the fact we were born with penises.
Until you are ready to give up that male privilege, spend this retirement on medical treatment, take the chance you will lose your loved ones, family, friends, employment. Please don't criticise my involvement of lack of involvement in the Trans community and support groups. Just the fact I live openly as a transwoman I am doing exponentially more than any CD or part timers that go to support groups or only go out web enfemme with other Cd's and part timers.
I said I have limited my interaction with the Trans community.
But to illustrate how involved I still am. My son asked me to talk to his girlfriend's friend because he was having gender conflicts. We spoke for over an hour and I offered to accompany him to the support group I used to attend.
As an in place transitioner I am out, and visible. It is my choice and mine alone how involved or not I am with the Trans community.
"When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes
"Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation
"A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W
DeeAnne have you finished criticising TS who are visible and doing far more than you or the vast majority of CDs will ever do?
Are you now going to turn your attention on the real reason why there is no 'transgender' movement and that is the legion of hidden CDs? Based on your attacks on TS you must be furious with them. Yet all we get silence and more criticism of TS.
DeeAnn i enjoy your comments because they are so condescending about something you literally do not understand.
You don't get it. I know this because i live this. You do not.
Every single day , every moment...all of us.. i don't mind generally being "asked" to do something..but co opt my identity and then demand my "support" (whatever that means to you)??? no thanks..
You are dealing with your inablity to internalize the transsexual experience on this board.
When you say condesceding things it only highlights the missing substance.. You don't understand why its a difficult topic because you don't actually understand it.
I asked because perhaps you could clarify your statement but you doubled down.
I asked because your pointed misinterpretation and making assumptions about Stephanies comments show your lack of understanding...
Nobody who understands what she goes through would say what you said.. Nobody.
Your platitudes are nothing to a person that is living their life as a transsexual 24/7.
Your jabs just show your lack of empathy and understanding for what transsexuals really do when they transition.
Last edited by Kaitlyn Michele; 06-20-2015 at 09:12 AM.
What is obvious is the desire to integrate as a female is a difficult topic for you to grasp. If I didn't have a need to have my identity reflected back to me as female. I could have just lived as an open transgendered part timer. Such a simple solution. I would still be married to my beautiful ex. I could have saved myself 75k. Not to mention the pain and suffering and emotional trauma from medical precedes. Socially interacting would be so much easier.
It's different (diffucult implies a wall or obstruction, hence the term different). There are many challenges to integrating as female. Notice I didn't say dress. That's easy, but you will still be perceived as a male in woman's clothing. The further we entrench in the Trans community the longer it takes to integrate as female. Many transsexuals and certainly Cd's are men in dresses. They espouse their female identity but they really aren't. They have no clue that they won't let go of their male privilege.
I have many transsexual friends. Some truly do not have female identity. Others are OK being Trans and able to express their authenticity. A minority and that includes me want to leave the male behind and completely integrate as female. Transitioning in place at my age, it will never truly happen. But damn I will do my best to achieve total integration. I love all my friends and I will do anything in my power to support them. I fully understand the trials, challenges, hatred and losses we all have had to endure to live authentically. But that doesn't mean I have to live my life as them.
Start living your life open. You don't need to medically transition. But live your life authentically as an open and out cross dresser and you may then find what we NEED to do to make living authentically a reality.
Last edited by stefan37; 06-20-2015 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Grammer
"When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes
"Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation
"A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W
I think DeeAnn genuinely doesn't understand - I can't think she would deliberately be condescending (although I'll leave her to answer for herself...) - but let me explain why...
I can understand that you wouldn't either need or want to spend any or much time with the transitional trans community if it's your desire just to live a normal life once you've got beyond the support the community can offer - normal life is meant to be as normal as possible - I think that's a choice and perfectly understandable and not unreasonable either. I get that...
It's also easy to misinterpret what folk are saying here - we don't always write in elegant, flowing language - it's often very shortform and quickly written so PLEASE try to stop having little digs (Both sides) about 'getting things' or 'difficulty' and just try to EXPLAIN it in a different way...
Just shouting the same thing louder is like 'Brits speaking Foreign'... it really doesn't help understanding... and if it doesn't get accepted, then we just have to agree to disagree...
Thank you...
Katey
Moderator
What I said was based on being involved with, and leading, employee affinity groups for the better part of 20 years. What I've seen happen sometimes is that people draw upon the resources of the group, get the benefit of advice and counsel, have doors opened and they progress without ever reaching back. So, those experiences that could be shared, that first-hand advice that could be given, etc. is lost. That does not help the community (speaking across any number of constituencies) or those who come afterwards.
When you speak of gaining acceptance, do not forget that it is a game of numbers. If you reach back and assist someone else in their transition and the result is making it a smoother process, a less painful process (although it will never be painless) or a better understood process so good choices can be made, this can only be beneficial. When you consider the number of cisgender people that you encounter in the world at large, for every person who comes out of transition in good shape (relatively), you have potentially doubled the number of impressions that you would have made by yourself. By not reaching back, you lose the potential multiplier of your own efforts. Simply put, this is how activism works. Metaphorically speaking, is it better to have one person carrying a sign or a whole busload? This is not a trivialization of one's efforts; it is a reminder of how those efforts can be expanded.
Now, argue the concept and the logic, but this is not about me. All I am doing is sharing what I have learned from advocacy and activism. And while it is a very human trait that our own well being is of primary concern, we can't forget that when we help others, we help ourselves; we make it easier for ourselves.
DeeAnn
This thread is all over the place. I thought we were talking about defining what is and is not TG.
DeeAnn, there's a difference between employee affinity groups where the focus is business pathways, which are secondary to a person's private life (and indeed everyone goes home at the end of the day to enjoy their highly individual private lives), and transitioned TSs who see themselves as women and who do not have a lot in common with people who identify differently and who may possibly end up choosing different paths.
It's like people who've graduated from college and are now moving forward in their adult careers, settling down, starting families, getting mortgages. You don't see them hanging out with college kids who have entirely different perspectives and priorities and who will also follow different career paths and live in different areas in different socioeconomic circles, etc.
Some things we can pass on to others, like how to do a specific job that involves an algorithm of sorts, but other things that involve personal choices based on a myriad of variables (personalities, life circumstances, personal desires, etc) cannot be passed on. People need to make choices appropriate for themselves. If you're talking about sticking around to tell someone HOW to transition (medications, which doctors to use, how far to take the transition, how to handle it at work, etc), then again the choices are too varied for one transitioned TS to advise another. Still, there are doctors to answer these questions, therapists, the HR department at work, support forums and groups where some transitioned TSs participate.
Why do you think that a TS woman can better assist someone beginning the process of transition (who is likely not yet sure how far she wants to take this because it does depend on personal circumstances for many people) better than the doctors, therapists, the person's own family, employer, etc.
If you're talking about transitioned women taking up signs and making their transitions public so help inure the public to the few transitioners there are, this is asking a lot. Not every person is prepared to live a public life (thus ruining their prospects of living quietly as a woman) for the sake of others who are not yet out. And what of these others? Should they all come out and carry signs even if they don't fully transition? Do you really think this will make a difference?
If you're not talking about any of these things, then I'm at a loss to understand your main point.
Reine
No, we are not two different people and that's often where there is a disconnect. We are not one person 8 to 5 and someone else the rest of the time. One's personal life effects one's professional life and vice-versa unless one is subject to schizophrenia. To attempt to maintain that separation is not good. That's a problem that lesbians, gays and bisexuals have continually faced because you cannot effectively separate your life like that. This is the point behind the phrase "Bring your whole self to work.". However, my reference was to reinforce the thought process behind advocacy and activism.
No, it's not. They are no longer peers in a significant sense. Someone who is about to transition, or is in the process, has much more in common with someone who has transitioned than the situation you mention. There is no comparison with permanently life-altering events.
I NEVER said "tell someone HOW to transition". Please comment on what I write. What I said was sharing one's experience. While there are doctors and therapists who have transitioned, they would represent a very small part of the total number of practitioners. World wide, the company I work for has about 30,000 employees with HR folks at every site. I've been a member of our LGBT affinity group for 12 years. As far as I know, no one from the HR community that has transitioned; at least in the time that they have been employed here. We would have heard, unofficially, as it's hard to keep that quiet.
Seriously? It's another piece to the puzzle; an experiential piece that may be difficult to find otherwise. I didn't put any qualifiers on it relating to beginning, middle or end, but be realistic. The vast majority of employers need to be educated as few have had to deal with transitioning employees. Further, what are your chances of having someone in your family to share their experiences?
As I said, please comment on what I write. I used the phrase: METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING. It was an example of relative numbers.
This is really a simple concept. s said she was limiting her involvement in the community and placing more emphasis on her interactions in the cisgender world (or whatever the exact text was). This is her path to gaining acceptance. My point was that gaining acceptance is a game of numbers, hence the metaphor. Obviously, one can interact with only so many people. What if, by sharing your experiences and knowledge with others, it helped make things easier for them or perhaps led to a better outcome? Then instead of YOU interacting with the cisgender world, then it would be YOU and OTHERS doing the same thing. Your efforts are multiplied; many more positive impressions are made. It is a game of numbers.
If I remember correctly, same-sex marriage is now legal in 37 US states. It wasn't terribly long ago that the number was almost nonexistent. It wasn't one person or a small group of people that brought this about. It was a small army. It is a game of numbers.
This is how acceptance is gained. I didn't say that s's efforts on her own behalf were misplaced. What I talked about was a way to multiply her efforts.
It also struck me that what she said sounded like a typical male isolation pattern. It is the "I can fix this all by myself, I don't need help from anybody" notion. Sometimes, that just isn't the best way forward.
DeeAnn
You talk about advocacy and activism as that should be requisite of those transitioning. Yes there are some that for whatever circumstance are either thrust or make the conscious effort to be an activist. I have no desire to be an activist. I will not walk around with a sign around my neck. " Hi I Stephanie, I'm a transsexual ". Trust me I do more to advocate Trans issues by the very fact I am out and about 24/7. The fact remains that if a transitioner wants to integrate as female they need to limit their interactions with the Trans community. I don't say this lightly. I have been actively transitioning for 3 years. Full time the last 2. I have many transsexual friends that I communicate and interact with frequently. There are some that live exclusively in the lbgt community. Interacting with the general public when it's absolutely necessary. There are some that are very open about being Trans and are happy to be. I also know many that wasn't nothing more than to live amongst the general public as female and to be treated as such. We are absolutely treated differently when we are perceived as female and when they figure we are Trans. Once outed being gendered as female becomes a crap shoot. Many times female pronouns are dropped and male pronouns become dominate. You would not know that because you are male and interact as male.
I have no desire to trade one closet for another. I know other Trans individuals that have transitioned and are for the most part assimilated into society as female. They sometimes feel they are in the closet for the fear of being outed. Maybe that will be my path in the future. Maybe not. The best way to assimilate and be accepted is to not talk about Trans issues. The general public for the most part do not want to hear it. Transition or like I said earlier go out and live as female 10/7 and you will know exactly what I am taking about. My transition despite my personal loss of my marriage has been relatively easy compared to many.
And yes I have accomplished many things on my own. That's my personality. Should I have to modify that to suit anybody else. I have tremendous self confidence ( large reason I was able to live full-time for 18 months with male facial features before I could afford facial reconstruction). Money I worked damn hard to save.
"When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes
"Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation
"A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W
That's just it. Most of us see no advantage to being able to walk around in public crossdressed; women's clothing simply requires more attention than men's does, and heels, well that speaks for itself. Dressed in drab I suffer no persecution, feel quite safe, etc.. Gay, lesbian and TS rights are needed because all of them have been dealing with obvious prejudice that they cannot avoid. We can; and I look at it no differently than I see not freely walking around naked. I wear what 'does the job'. I don't routinely go out wearing clothes to 'make a statement'. If you feel the need to dress and be seen as female so strong that you need to do it all the time and in public, there's more going on than just the clothes.
To some degree, I think it's the novelty of just being able to do it. Like women, after a while you're going to go with what makes you most comfortable, and that won't include two hours of make up, hairstyling, etc. just to go do routine daily errands. Sure, women like to feel really glamorous and beautiful, but they don't want to go through that every day, fancy dresses, hairstyles, jewelry, heels, etc.. Neither will we.
In the meantime, I'll stay in the closet. It's a nice closet, and it has lots of my favorite things in it.
Last edited by sometimes_miss; 06-20-2015 at 06:56 PM.
Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.
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