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Thread: Discussion regarding Caitlyn Jenner

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    You talk about advocacy and activism as that should be requisite of those transitioning. Yes there are some that for whatever circumstance are either thrust or make the conscious effort to be an activist. I have no desire to be an activist. I will not walk around with a sign around my neck. " Hi I Stephanie, I'm a transsexual ".
    It isn't requisite, yet in effect, that's what you're doing.

    Activism: a doctrine or practice that emphasizes direct vigorous action especially in support of or opposition to one side of a controversial issue.

    Not saying that this is precisely what you do, but when you interact with people and your identity becomes known, there are similarities. All of a sudden, you're representing whether you want to or not. At that point, you put a face on what they think a transsexual is.

    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    We are absolutely treated differently when we are perceived as female and when they figure we are Trans. Once outed being gendered as female becomes a crap shoot. Many times female pronouns are dropped and male pronouns become dominate.
    Aside from a basic prejudice, which I think you would recognize, the only other possibility would seem to be lack of exposure and education.

    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    You would not know that because you are male and interact as male.
    Only anecdotally. However, it's sort of a moot point as I probably don't pass from less than 8'-10' anyway. Further, when I am dressed, I don't think I interact as male. I think I just interact. And you know, getting hit by a truck is not a prerequisite for reaching the understanding that it hurts like hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    I have no desire to trade one closet for another. I know other Trans individuals that have transitioned and are for the most part assimilated into society as female. They sometimes feel they are in the closet for the fear of being outed. Maybe that will be my path in the future. Maybe not.
    Have you considered that your transition now makes you a member of a minority group? That is a very different perspective on the world. Perhaps you have not experienced direct prejudice before and this is a very new situation. I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    The best way to assimilate and be accepted is to not talk about Trans issues. The general public for the most part do not want to hear it. Transition or like I said earlier go out and live as female 10/7 and you will know exactly what I am taking about.
    I don't doubt any of your experiences. My point is solely that the process of exposure goes much faster when there are more people, in good shape, out there doing it. If there are more people out there, then everybody becomes less of a novelty. The question then becomes how to get more people, in good shape, out there.

    In part, this is where Caitlyn Jenner comes in.

    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    And yes I have accomplished many things on my own. That's my personality. Should I have to modify that to suit anybody else.
    No, everyone has a personality. However, certain male traits can act as an impediment to a more collaborative approach, as most females are socialized to do. So, if you are really going to assimilate as an average female, you may have to round off some of those corners. And yes, that is also a way in which people might come to the understanding that you are different.

    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    I have tremendous self confidence ( large reason I was able to live full-time for 18 months with male facial features before I could afford facial reconstruction). Money I worked damn hard to save.
    You have to do what you have to do. I just think that there may be easier ways to get to the same goal.

    DeeAnn

  2. #152
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    Then why don't you go out 24/7 and help change attitudes. It was not my choice to be born transsexual and it was not my choice to transition. There is no control over that. When it's your time, it's your time. I have no control over how people feel or react. I've been lucky, I can move around freely without undue attention. Unlike since of my friends. I have my experiences and whether you agree with them or not is not my concern. Its my life and I will live it as I see fit. Regardless of what anyone in the "Trans community" feels about it. If you were out and about 24/7 without the comfort of retreating back to male you might think differently.

    Quite frankly I don't know why you want to argue with me how I live my life and how I want to, or don't want to interact with the "Trans community". You live yours the way you want. And let me live mine the way I want. Fair enough?
    "When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes

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  3. #153
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    s:

    In October I will be in front of 200-250 people (mostly cisgender people, including some that I know personally) as DeeAnn. I will post details in the Upcoming Events section in late August/early September. Our entertainer for the evening will be Ian Harvie. Further, you have my personal invitation and it's free. All you have to do is get yourself here. Is that fair enough for you?

    Anyway, your attitude surprised me. That was why I voiced the opinion that I did. I don't recall anyone else here saying that (the distancing yourself from the community part).

    The way things stand for now, at my employer 24/7 is a one way street. I would have to be on the road to transitioning because there is no back and forth, but doing 24/7 is not how I identify. Never has been.

    No, I wouldn't feel differently about my opinions if I were 24/7. It has to do with my opinions about how a community works and I suspect that it is something with which I have far more experience. And further, your understanding is incorrect. I do not retreat. I live 2 lives, but I do not retreat. You made an assumption based on your perceptions of what crossdressers are, but it is incorrect.

    By all means, live as you choose. However, I would be saddened if yours was the prevailing attitude in the community.

    Pleasant Dreams.

    DeeAnn

  4. #154
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    Actually DeeAnn, Stephanie's POV is fairly common from what I have learned. There is nothing wrong with it, just as there is nothing wrong with staying connected with the trans community, whatever that might be. I have encountered both in my travels. These are simply decisions about how to live one's life after what is typically a difficult decision and/or experience to transition.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
    Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)

  5. #155
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    It is what it is. But, if the idea is to gain acceptance, it seems to be the long road to town...

    DeeAnn

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    No, we are not two different people and that's often where there is a disconnect. We are not one person 8 to 5 and someone else the rest of the time. One's personal life effects one's professional life and vice-versa unless one is subject to schizophrenia. To attempt to maintain that separation is not good. That's a problem that lesbians, gays and bisexuals have continually faced because you cannot effectively separate your life like that. This is the point behind the phrase "Bring your whole self to work.". However, my reference was to reinforce the thought process behind advocacy and activism.
    I'm sorry DeeAnn, but you're all over the place with your arguments and you backpeddle. You're the one who brought up "employee affinity groups" as a comparison for TSs mentoring others, not me. And yes, "employee" implies 9-5. As to separating the dressing into "female" and "male" mode which is what I think you are alluding to here, this was not at all what I suggested. Or course TSs are not "part-time" TSs. lol.

    As to advocacy and activism, no one has the right to require this of anyone else, not even you.

    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    As I said, please comment on what I write. I used the phrase: METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING. It was an example of relative numbers.
    It's hard to have a conversation based on metaphors. It opens the way for everyone to have a different understanding of what is being discussed, which is what I think is happening here. It is best to be precise.
    Reine

  7. #157
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    Wow . . . talk about a thread deviating from the intent and spiraling into an "us/them" rhetoric. Seriously, we all have our burdens to bear irrespective of where we fall on the spectrum (and sorry if I have offended anyone by lumping them into a group). We all make choices to do what we need to do to survive in this world. For some it requires total transition (medical and social) to align one's gender identity. For others it means hiding in the closet and stealing a minute or two in a dress in order to calm themselves. Not everyone is going to be a "poster child" for trans rights and some just want to exist in the world as they were meant to be. I can understand the need of those who are transitioning to distance themselves from the community if it helps them to fully integrate into society as the gender they need to be . . . that is their choice just as it the choice of those to be fully active once they transition or for the CDer to remain hidden at home deep in the closet. Folks, it is about choice and coming to terms with yourself, not degrees of what makes you more capable of claiming the "trans title"

    I have recently accepted that I am "gender fluid" (and I am sure some here will say . . . hey you can't use that title as it means this . . . but it is all I have ). The reality is, some days I identify as a woman and some days I identify as a man. Because I came out so openly in the military and have challenged the existing TG policy as not being inclusive enough, I have become an "accidental activist" of sorts. However, it was motivated by a need to have the right to express who I am. If it helps others after me then so be it and I am happy to "breach that gap" but that is where it ends for me. I will be quite visible at work and there will be no doubt I am a guy (the kid is not pretty and is not fooling anyone ). When I first realized I was TG I linked into the local trans community and at my first support group meetings I was set upon by a very angry TS individual who basically implied I knew nothing and should just stay at home because I was not pretty enough and it only draws attention to her . . . "Say what, not pretty enough and here I thought I looked like Charlize Theron". That was my first and last meeting I ever attended. Now I get she was not representative of the TS community but it did put me off and from that point, I just decided to socialize in the Vanilla world vice the community and that is where I have been since. I am not saying the community does not do great things in my local area (and they do) but again, my choice.

    Now the one thing I will take exception with is the rhetoric that as a "part-timer" I get to run home to the safety of being male whenever the going gets tough. Okay folks let's frame this in a gender identity context, I identify both male and female and I am not running home to the safety of anything, I am presenting the gender which I have a deep need to present at a given point in time. If I identify female on a given day and am required to interact anywhere in public, I don't head for a bathroom decompile and come out as a dude to do my business. I cannot because I would feel incongruent at that time. As a woman, I have taken my vehicle to my mechanic who has known me as a guy for several years. Many of my work colleagues have seen me as both a man and a woman and soon I will start working as a woman on the days I need to identify as a woman. Believe me, there is no running home to the safety of being male once that "bell has been rung" . Do you think for a second any guy who has an issue with me is going to think "oh well, sometimes he is a man so that okay". No it is more likely . . . turn in your man card son because you were seen wearing a dress and make-up. When I took my "beat down" a few months back, nobody asked me if I was a "part-timer", they just attacked me.

    Please, can we get off the "you will never understand" train. Yes, I get it there are things about other's existence we can never truly understand irrespective of where we fall on the continuum. I can no more understand what a TS member endures then they can understand what I endure on a day to day basis. Yes, you can understand the concept but not the context because we are each unique beings with our own baggage to deal with along with being TG. In the end there is no "right way" or "wrong way" to do what you need to do in life to survive . . . there is just "your way" and that may differ from "my way". However, the end result is the same . . . some sort of comfort/happiness/congruence or whatever you need to get you by in life.

    Hugs

    Isha

  8. #158
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    i buy alot of what you are saying isha...
    you should be proud and i hope you are

    however steph and others are not claiming trans titles... others are imposing/projecting it on us, co opting our female identities and demanding we "fall in line"...

    and what's more, there is no coherent, specific action being talked about by these people..they just want our lives on a platter to serve their ends.
    and the idea of being out 24/7, living life authentically against all odds every day is not enough..
    this is breathtakingly arrogant and ignorant...and then when there is push back, we get condescending platitudes
    i call bs...sorry.... i stand by my comment...he/she simple does not understand..

    (fwiw perhaps you don't care but i count you and most of the people in this discussion in the club of living authentically and honestly 24/7, i am thrilled for you and have read your posts with interest and hopefulness..kudos to you....)
    and i would add you won't find me belittling or judging anybody's gender issue ..its really frustrating to get others insecurities and hang ups projected on my comments ...that's where trannier than thou comes from..not from me..it comes from them
    god i wish i was less tranny than them

    and you don't offend me by attempting to "include" me in a spectrum of gender... i hope i don't offend you by rejecting that. My simple statement on this is that i am no more or less on a gender spectrum with a crossdressing guy than any other guy...
    thats why i reject the tg umbrella... it invalidates the men that dress for fun and are into it for clothes...they are just guys that like dressing...and it invalidates the women that live as women every moment
    you are gender fluid, its no surprise you embrace the concept of the umbrella...it feels right to you because it is right for you..
    Last edited by Kaitlyn Michele; 06-21-2015 at 10:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I'm sorry DeeAnn, but you're all over the place with your arguments and you backpeddle. You're the one who brought up "employee affinity groups" as a comparison for TSs mentoring others, not me. And yes, "employee" implies 9-5. As to separating the dressing into "female" and "male" mode which is what I think you are alluding to here, this was not at all what I suggested. Or course TSs are not "part-time" TSs. lol.
    That's just silly. It is a parallel. It could apply to ANY support group situation. You're reading something in that I didn't say.

    The quote was:

    What I said was based on being involved with, and leading, employee affinity groups for the better part of 20 years. What I've seen happen sometimes is that people draw upon the resources of the group, get the benefit of advice and counsel, have doors opened and they progress without ever reaching back. So, those experiences that could be shared, that first-hand advice that could be given, etc. is lost. That does not help the community (speaking across any number of constituencies) or those who come afterwards.

    What is so hard to understand about that? Are you saying that can't happen? You're trying to extrapolate to some place where you shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    As to advocacy and activism, no one has the right to require this of anyone else, not even you.
    It's not a requirement. I don't think I said anything even close to relating to a requirement. What I said relates to what is lost if passing on experiences does not happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    It's hard to have a conversation based on metaphors. It opens the way for everyone to have a different understanding of what is being discussed, which is what I think is happening here. It is best to be precise.
    Metaphors are an integral part of how language is used. But, I'll rewrite it so you cannot come to any erroneous conclusions:

    When you consider the number of cisgender people that you encounter in the world at large, for every person who comes out of transition in good shape (relatively), you have potentially doubled the number of impressions that you would have made by yourself. By not reaching back, you lose the potential multiplier of your own efforts. Simply put, this is how activism works. So, if the goal is to gain acceptance and eliminate the situations were people are referred to incorrectly, the asking of inappropriate questions, etc., is it better to have just s interacting with people or a bunch of other transsexuals in addition to s interacting with MANY people? This is not a trivialization of one's efforts; it is a reminder of how those efforts can be expanded.

    You know, if you don't try to morph it into something it's not, it really is a simple concept.

    DeeAnn

  10. #160
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    A whole week and 80 posts ago...

    I was trying to encourage everyone to stay on the point (briefly: Caitlyn Jenner and the validity of late transitioners and SRS) and NOT get drawn into semantics... again...

    You all know darned well how the arguments about categories, umbrellas, your life, my life, etc. ends...

    Get back to the point - accept that there are different opinions here (valid), different viewpoints (valid), different circumstances (valid) and try to add something new to the discussion... or go find a new discussion!

    Last chance...

    Katey
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    Oh no Katey. People would rather drag each other through the mud. And be rude and condescending. Everyone is so powerful behind the power of their computer screen. Thanks for trying to jump back in and get the topic back on track. But it obviously wont happen.

    :/

    In regards to the OP. I wondered if my fiancee was "outing" himself a little as well with all the posts regarding Trans and Trans acceptance. And Whether or not I might be outing us. This is going to be a LONG post about the conversation that ensued due to Caitlyn.

    I posted This little gem on my Facebook wall.

    If you are posting hateful stuff about Caitlyn Jenner, I am unfriending you. I have no time for hatred or bigotry. Feel free to unfriend me if you are anti caitlyn. Fyi, who is Caitlyn Jenner NOT Bruce. By saying please call me Caitlyn it's now no longer acceptable to call her Bruce or He, unless she changes her mind, which she is the only one who is entitled to change that.
    To which I got a couple amens and then someone from a local non profit commented basically that me being so stubborn to not be able to "see the other side" of the argument made me a bigot. There were many comments but most notable this

    HER: I do find the conversation interesting, and can see it from both sides because I really do not feel any moral compunction either way. But that said, I am amazed at how many people will vehemently assert that other people must accept the view that transgender procedures are fine and acceptable, while refusing to extend the same acceptance of an opinion that does NOT agree with that procedure. To me, that seems as one-sided and close-minded as someone berating someone for promoting transgender situations.

    If we are to promote acceptance, we must realize that acceptance goes both ways. If I expect someone to accept my view that Caitlin should feel positive about who she now is, then I must accept someone else's view to the contrary without feeling the need to label them hateful or mean. They simply have a different view than mine, and I can live with that peacefully.

    I posted the recent article by Matt Walsh BECAUSE it did not easily align with what I personally would support...and my point has already been made on my own wall. Rather than folks asking, "Hey, can you clarify for me what you mean", I am receiving comments absolutely critical of "my position", though I did even not state my own position, I merely posted the article as a point of discussion.

    How quickly we become judgmental in the process of telling people not to be judgmental. Just food for thought.
    I was pissed. DAMN RIGHT I am JUDGMENTAL of HATRED AND BIGOTRY. Pissed that someone I considered a friend thought that way. And that they could assume that there is acceptance both ways. BOTH WAYS? Isn;t that acceptance and..... Not acceptace. No way in hell am I going to accept that other people think that trans people are gross. no way I am going to accept other people being disrespectful to another human being based upon their "Beliefs". That we should ACCEPT people who disagree with a fundamental part of who each of us is. Many of you being Trans, Me being bisexual, possibly pansexual. All of these things are WHO WE ARE. Someone who thinks that Cailtlyn Jenner is disgusting. IS HATEFUL AND MEAN. There is no other side to that for me? Is there for you all?

    But I am privileged. I a a white cisgendered person. I have so much privlidge. BUT this lady. This lady took the fricken cake. White, religious, wealthy, cisgendered, straight. She never had to deal with a struggle her whole life.

    To which the conversations finished like this

    ME: I don't believe it's something anyone had the ability to agree or disagree with. It's not a choice. This is who someone is. No one else has the right to have an opinion on who someone else is. People who have grown up where their body matches their identity are privileged. As with any privilege they (myself included) will never understand what it's like to be in the wrong body. This isn't something that had sides, or opinions. I read a statistic that 1 in 2000 people a year are born intersex. That's more common than being jewish. A fact most people don't talk about when talking about gender issues. This is a way someone is born. Like their hair color, or skin color. No one has a right to have an opinion on those things, why this? That's like saying, if we promote black acceptance we need to realize the other side? Um.... no we don't.

    P.s. you don't need to be inter sex to be trans. So before people misconstrue what I am saying... Which they will. Its just to highlight that there is a whole world people who have an opinion about this, dont even know. On another token, it also is common for those who are born intersex to be forced into a gender that possibly does not match their own. There are some studies showing that SOME people who identify of trans people who are born somewhere on the intersex spectrum. But if you look into research about genetics people are born this way. Its not to far of a stretch that all people of gender variations are born this way.
    To be honest(Her name) this seems to me like when we used to think it was okay to enslave people by the color of their skin. Feeling power over another group of people, and power to alienate them, is wrong. Alienating them by talking about it like it's a choice is a step in the wrong direction.

    HER: And...I am pretty sure that Caitlin opened the door for ll this attention by even doing the cover photo and article. No one forced that on her. So it appears that she does not mind the conversations swirling, and the thoughts and ideas that follow.

    ME: I think attention versus discussion about legitimacy are different. Trans youth commit suicide everyday. If being on a cover of a magazine gives youth hope that they can survive this struggle, more power to them. If you watch the interview with Katie couric, Caitlyn, Bruce at the time, makes that important connection.
    She then blocked me. So we were done..... But really, Like it or not. Caitlyn Jenner being public and in the media, give us these moments to educate people who would otherwise not have been educated. She opens the door for conversations that were only happening between those that were already enlightened before.


    I also a couple days later posted about the "hero meme", it was the article in which the man realized he was wrong; To which I lost 5 more face book friends. Better off without them I think...

    ME:What an interesting and Ironic way to be enlightened. Just because you call someone brave, doesn't mean you are negating the actions of another. Bravery is subjective. I think that the men and women who risk their lives for this country are very brave. I also think, becoming the person you were always supposed to be, in the wake of bigotry, hatred, judgement, fear and danger, is also bravery. The attached journal article is about the prevalence of suicide among LGBTQ people. http://www.tandfonline.com/…/…/10.10....534038…
    Imagine how bigotry and hatred effects those that you don't realize. The snide comment on the bus or the online bullying. You never know if that toxic hatred is the reason that one more at risk LGBTQ person, decides to go home and end their life. Each and every LGBTQ person, who lives another day, in the face of these struggles, is brave. And every person who transitions, and speaks out on behalf of themselves and their counterparts, is braver still. And each person, who is "against" the idea, who takes the time to understand that being a trans-person, isn't a subject up for your opinion or debate, and realizes the error of their ways, and ADMITS it, like the man who wrote this article, is also brave. Bravery is subjective and pinning people against one another in a contest of Bravery, or beauty, wit, courage, intelligence or any other attribute, is demeaning. Especially for the sake of an argument, that shouldn't be taking place in the first place.
    Last edited by Greenie; 06-21-2015 at 11:29 AM.
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    Greenie, I would like to say that the facebook posts that you linked to were great.

    One thing stuck in my mind though while reading your posts. And I couldn't shake the thought that I had. Namely, this comment:

    "Fyi, who is Caitlyn Jenner NOT Bruce. By saying please call me Caitlyn it's now no longer acceptable to call her Bruce or He, unless she changes her mind, which she is the only one who is entitled to change that."

    What stuck in my mind was just how much we (that's a collective "we") attempt to speak for other people. You are telling people that it is "now no longer acceptable call her Bruce or He", and that Caitlyn is the one who determines how she is now to be known.

    My problem with that is that that is an ideal. Not a reality. We, as individuals, do not get to determine how we, as individuals are to be recognised as, referred to as. That is something that trans people know all too well. From making applications to have legal documents changed (such as a driving licence for example - we apply to have that changed, never ever can we DEMAND that such a change is made - if it is made, it is done so by an authority figure, not by ourselves.

    All of us are part of a system, and it's that system, whether we like it or not, that determines, not who we are, but how we are identified.

  13. #163
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    when people talk about things they dont understand they can argue their "opinion" is valid, but people that do understand know it has no standing or merit..
    its like talking with somebody that claims 2+2=7..if i have the "right" to say 2+2 is four, they have the right to say its seven...its especially prevalent on social media which often brings out the worst in people IMO

    its unfortunate in this case because so many people do not understand....i have found when people do understand (specifically with regards to transsexuals) they tend to be fine with it but also tend to shy away from the light because its challenging and uncomfortable.

    the way around this is day by day and person by person real life contact...i tend to focus people on an easier thing to understand... that transsexuals suffer gender dysphoria to the point of suicide..what can be wrong with letting them do something that helps them want to live their lives?? some are so ignorant and hateful they begrudge this to us as if we are not human... its easy to say get them out of your life, don't listen to them etc...but their voice is loud and resonates with many that keep quiet..

    it is a very very long slog for transsexuals.

    Caitlyn has started many conversations...even if some of them lead to enlightened thinking its worth it and if it blew up some relationships its probably true those relationships were not authentic to begin with..

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni_xx View Post

    My problem with that is that that is an ideal. Not a reality. We, as individuals, do not get to determine how we, as individuals are to be recognised as, referred to as. That is something that trans people know all too well. From making applications to have legal documents changed (such as a driving licence for example - we apply to have that changed, never ever can we DEMAND that such a change is made - if it is made, it is done so by an authority figure, not by ourselves.

    All of us are part of a system, and it's that system, whether we like it or not, that determines, not who we are, but how we are identified.
    I totally see your point. But just because it is not reality,. doesn't mean it shouldn't be that way. I truley believe that it is a basic human right to be able to self identify. And its okay to be misgendered. But when people misgender on purpose instead and out of disrespect. That is a problem. When Caitlyn came forward, very publicly, and said "call me Caitlyn." That is what we should do. And that is how she should be recognized. I mean.... Its what she wants to be called. We didn't tell Marilyn Monroe, that her birth name is Norma so that's what we are going to call you. We don't correct Jaime Foxx, Reese Witherspoon, Kat Denings, Lorde, etc etc.

    Why then is it acceptable to think that Caitlyn cannot do the same. The same that we do for MANY other stars, famous people, friends and loved ones. Because Caitlyn is controversial. But everyone calls Chaz Bono Chaz instead of Chastity. We have allowed Cis-gendered people to be identified purely by their choice, and we have done it for other "less famous" trans people.

    Just because its how the system works, doesn't mean it needs to stay tht way. Just like how there is Systematic and Structural Racism, there is an institutional oppression of Trans people. This is true but definitely not something I feel that we should succumb to, just because "its the way it is".

    Freedom of speech, religion, slavery. Those were all ideals once too. We in fact DEMANDED the systematic change that abolished Slavery, and segregation. I feel like this is a situation in which we can do the same.

    Does that make sense?
    ~Greenie

    Supportive wife to a wonderful man who just so happens to like to be fabulous some times.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenie View Post
    We didn't tell Marilyn Monroe, that her birth name is Norma so that's what we are going to call you. We don't correct Jaime Foxx, Reese Witherspoon, Kat Denings, Lorde, etc etc.
    That's a really good point and I hadn't thought about it that way.

    I do think that it is acceptable that we do the same for Caitlyn, but the difference lies in the connotation behind such a change. It isn't Reginald Dwight asking to be known, henceforth, as Elton John. The reason for Bruce's name change is because it is a direct reflection of her change of gender.

    I agree with you though - the system should change - we should be in control of how society is to address us as individuals. I'm completely with you on that. I didn't mean to imply that we should succumb to how it is, accept how it is, I merely meant to convey the way it actually is. I think it should change - I hope it does.

    Your post made perfect sense by the way. Thanks for writing it and making me look at it from an angle I hadn't before.

  16. #166
    Nondressing CDer ReluctantDebutant's Avatar
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    I don't think people have that much of a problem calling Caitlyn Jenner Caitlyn from now on. I think the problem is that so many people have memories of Bruce Jenner. So much of Jenner's fame came from the past not only was she known as Bruce but she was a man. Video, documents, photos, and memory do not record a woman named Caitlyn Jenner winning the gold in the 1976 Olympics, being on a Wheaties box, being on TV and so forth. Elton John and Marilyn Monroe got their fame after they changed their names it is easy not to think of them as Reginald Dwight and Norma Jeane Mortenson. Now Imagine Reginald sticking with that name gaining the same fame and is just now deciding to be called Elton. Will fans remember seeing a Elton John concert in the late 70's or a Reginald Dwight concert? Memory is a hard thing to forget .

    I think if Caitlyn was starting off fresh in the fame business, she probably would not have as much trouble putting her past life behind her.

  17. #167
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    Changing your name is much easier and is accepted more readily than changing gender. After 2 years full-time, nobody uses my birth name. They use Stephanie and there is no misuse. Gender on the other hand is more problematic. I get misgendered a fair amount of time. And once someone uses the wrong pronoun. Others will sometimes follow suit. A major reason TS will move after transition. Caitlyn doesn't have that luxury. Being a huge celebrity athlete she is in the spotlight and cannot hide no matter where she goes.
    Were Caitlyn to come out as gay. There would be some commotion and it would go away rather quickly also. Now she is the butt of many jokes. Especially late night vista. There was a picture today of Caitlyn lounging on a couch. And a dog with a confused look on his face saying
    " I'm confused, I smell balls ". Apparently from the guffaws and lol's this was hilarious to many. I try not to take my transition too seriously, but many times the humor is not humorous but hurtful.
    "When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes

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  18. #168
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    Yes, I saw that picture on Facebook. Also one of her with a dog captioned "Bruce Jenner's cat". It can't be helped. They are also making fun of the white woman who has been claiming she is black and working for the NAACP.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantDebutant View Post
    I think if Caitlyn was starting off fresh in the fame business, she probably would not have as much trouble putting her past life behind her.
    Of the people who come to mind that have transitioned, some did have notoriety in their former lives. Specifically, I'm speaking of Chaz Bono, Lana Wachowski and Wendy Carlos. However, their notoriety was nothing like that of Bruce Jenner.

    That brings up a question:

    Had anyone else with a similar degree of celebrity transitioned? I don't recall anyone else.


    Quote Originally Posted by stefan37 View Post
    There was a picture today of Caitlyn lounging on a couch. And a dog with a confused look on his face saying " I'm confused, I smell balls ".
    To call that spohomoric would imply an upgrade...

    DeeAnn
    Last edited by flatlander_48; 06-22-2015 at 07:37 PM.

  20. #170
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    Just like every point of time in history where there is a real movement for added rights or acceptance, it will come with a lot of rough times. Take the suffrage movement. Famous women like Susan B. Anthony. How long did this take and to what hardships did these women go through to finally win basic rights like voting rights? This did not happen over night, and it came with tremendous hardship of all those who participated. Oddly, it was even many women who were also against them.

    My point in all of that is that Caitlynn will be breaking ground. She may be freeing herself of her gender identity, but sadly, the last 20 or so years of her life will not be filled with a complete loving peace from all of society. The haters have and will come out strongly. I have already seen so much of this, and it is sad. Caitlynn will be a tremendous help to transgender causes but will also sadly be a bit of a polarizing figure as well. Just as all those before her have been.

    Not that we should not fully stand behind her, we should. In the end, it will bring us closer to having rights and respect that many minorities are now in the process of getting yet once did not have. Now it is beginning to be our turn to come to the table and get these rights and respect. They won't be passed to us easily though.
    Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned

  21. #171
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    Unfortunately, I think it is necessary to have polarizing figures. It forces people to figure where things sit for them. It will also tend to flush out those silent haters. The vocal ones are obvious, but the silent ones are harder to find until they just can't stand it any more and have to say or do something.

    DeeAnn

  22. #172
    Gold Member DonnaT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    That brings up a question:

    Had anyone else with a similar degree of celebrity transitioned? I don't recall anyone else.
    Renée Richards had the most celebrity status prior to Caitlyn Jenner. There have been other athletes who have transitioned, but none competed in the Olympics/
    DonnaT

  23. #173
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    Still though, he didn't have anywhere the degree of norotiety that Jenner had beforehand...

    DeeAnn

  24. #174
    Aspiring Member ChristinaK's Avatar
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    I admire Caitlyn for her courage to out herself to the world. It must have been a very difficult thing to decide upon. She is honest with herself and those around her. She feels like she must be honest with the world because it is important to her to demonstrate to the world that we exist, are legitimate citizens of the world and are not slobbering perverts lurking in the shadows searching for an opportunity to do society some type of perceived harm.

    Every time I pass a news stand and see her on the cover it makes me smile.

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