Bathroom bills and other laws , discussion thread

[BillieAnneJean]

The biggest dangers to women and girls in the bathrooms is from heterosexual men. I can't recall an news stories of a real trans person committing any crime in a bathroom. But there certainly have been plenty of news stories of heterosexual men and boys making peep holes from the adjacent store room, placing small cameras, you name it.

I remember a long time ago some guy was caught down inside the accumulation area of a primitive rest stop outhouse. He was wearing waders and had an umbrella.

While we are at it, the biggest dangers to women and girls anywhere, not just bathrooms is heterosexual men. Coaches, clergy, politicians, you name it. Has there ever been a case of a true trans person caught doing anything improper? Doubt it.

[prettytoes]

I find it interesting how all the chatter seems to be about men (or boys) using the ladies room..."not with my daughter, wife, etc." What about a trans woman using the men's room?

[Rhonda Darling]

Yesterday in Washington, DC, a trans woman attempted to use the ladies room in a local chain food store. A female special police officer (armed contract security licensed by local PD) followed her in and told her to get out, going so far as to follow the woman to the front of the store and push her out of the building. The trans woman rightly called the police, who responded and ARRESTED THE SPECIAL POLICE OFFICER for assault. She will likely also be charged with a civil rights violation under DC's long standing trans protective bathroom laws.

see: http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2016/...h-assault.html or Google it yourself.

Rhonda

[Genny B]

Yesterday in Washington, DC, a trans woman attempted to use the ladies room in a local chain food store. A female special police officer (armed contract security licensed by local PD) followed her in and told her to get out, going so far as to follow the woman to the front of the store and push her out of the building. The trans woman rightly called the police, who responded and ARRESTED THE SPECIAL POLICE OFFICER for assault. She will likely also be charged with a civil rights violation under DC's long standing trans protective bathroom laws.

see: http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2016/...h-assault.html or Google it yourself.

Rhonda

What if this happened in Virginia though? This issue has me very concerned. At the last soiree I left early as I was afraid to use the restroom. Everyone seems so high strung. You know what I mean?
Genny B

[Lena]

The issue started in Houston when city council passed HERO (Houston Equal Rights Ordinance). HERO added LGBT to a protected class that cannot be discriminated against for employment, services, housing, etc. It also included protections for trans persons to use public restrooms that matched their identity. There was massive opposition to this ordinance. Mostly the opposition argument was businesses were afraid they would be forced to bake "gay" cake(and all the marriage, wedding halls etc). Conservatives in Texas are very upset that they are being expected treat LGBT with any dignity and want to protect their ability to discriminate legally.

So, the ordinance was put to a ballot. They couldn't gain traction by saying LGBT shouldn't be protected, so they ran television and radio ads showing predators in bathrooms. Most people voting didn't even know the ordinance included veteran status, age, weight, sex, race. They only knew it as the bathroom law. The vote happen and the ordinance was defeated. But the Houston anti-trans bathroom movement had been born. Texan politicians love to use deception, fear and anger(and religion) to manipulate their voters. Now that Texas politicians found a winner for fundraising and support, they're milking it for all they can. They don't care about the lives of those affected as long as they get their voters and donations. I've never seen such corrupt politics till i moved here.

The supporters of the law did a horrible job of defending it and countering the fictitious arguments. At the same time, money was flowing into the HERO opposition groups.

[Lauri K]

To add to Lena's post about HERO

The initial measure passed the Houston city council to place HERO into effect, the opposition took HERO to the TX Supreme Court and bought themselves a few conservative judges to overturn HERO, which happened. As a result of the court action HERO had to be placed on a ballot for a vote of the public, which is what the conservative groups wanted, so they went off on a smear campaign to make HERO all about bathrooms and it worked for them.

Here is my thoughts on this, you can NEVER let the majority vote on rights for minorities.

This why you NEVER want to see minority rights issues on ballots, never, ever, ever.

Is should also be noted that HERO supporters outspent the opposition by a large amount and we still lost because the opposition made it about men in bathrooms.

The bathrooms bills / talk of them are a minor temporary setback for sure, unfortunately until we see what the next administration looks like and who ends up getting appointed to the SCOTUS .........we are going to remain in a state of limbo expecting any protections to be passed protecting our status any time soon.

Lot's of work to do but it will get done in due time, hang in there and educate people in the interim,.

[Michala]

Lena - Texas voters don't hold exclusive rights to having uninformed voters. I'm sure every state has had issues where a person wonders what some voters are thinking. It's OK to disagree with someone but if you do you should at least have some facts and actually make an informed decision instead of getting all your information from gossip and the internet. Somehow too many people think "I read it on the internet so it must be correct."

BillieAnneJean - When I read your comment about a person standing in the bottom of an outhouse with an umbrella I started to laugh and then wondered whether I was going to throw up. For those of us old enough to remember using an outhouse, me for sure, have to wonder how bad do you need a dose of peeping tom to think you're going to get some kind of kick out of that situation. Seems like there might be some other mental issues. I can't imagine anything more disgusting than standing in an outhouse hole and I'm pretty sure the umbrella had nothing to do with making it more comfortable.

[arbon]

The issue started in Houston when city council passed HERO (Houston Equal Rights Ordinance).

Its been going on a lot longer then that. Years. Decades. Its only been getting more attention now.

[flatlander_48]

The difference was that previously the trans community wasn't really visible enough to be able to point to something other than a ghost. Now, there are specific faces to point to: Chaz Bono, the Wachowskis, Aydian Dowling, Janet Mock, Laverne Cox, Zachary Drucker, Caitlyn Jenner, et al. A Wedge Issue works much better when there is a specific and clear target.

DeeAnn

[Robin414]

Reading a LOT about CIS women not looking femme enough to use the ladies room but NOT A PEEP about a CIS male looking too femme to use the men's room.

Does this somehow speak to the 'male privilege'?

Just a random 'shower thought'

[heatherdress]

I can't recall an news stories of a real trans person committing any crime in a bathroom....Has there ever been a case of a true trans person caught doing anything improper? Doubt it.

Unfortunately - yes, there are crossdressers arrested in public bathrooms:

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/c...-walmar/nQddG/
http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/27/cr...-college-dorm/
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...351232041.html
http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/02/m...n-in-bathroom/
http://www.snopes.com/transgender-fi...omen-restroom/

Crossdressers who are voyeurs have always preyed upon women and children in bathrooms. They are difficult to catch and arrest. Crossdressers who were prostitutes also used to be frequently by arrested in public rest rooms in the inner city area I used to work.

[Helen_Highwater]

Heather's research does make a case that the haters can and will use. However I would suggest that the last sentence should read Voyeurs who are cross dressers, because that's what they primarily are, voyeurs who's reason for dressing is as we all know, different to ours. Looking at some of those cases it does seem that the person is more in need of psychiatric help than incarceration.

Laws cannot be formed around a small number of cases because if you do then statistically you'd need to ban many other groups, priests/pastors/care workers/doctors/dentists etc. given the well documented and numerous instances were they're been convicted of serious sexual assaults against both adults and children.

Enfemme I've walked into public toilets, made my way into the stall. I could just as easily done the same dressed in drab without being challenged and if I were a sexual predator laid in wait for a victim. And surely that's the point. Unless the toilet is extremely busy a sexual predator can access female toilets in order to carry out their criminal act. There needs to be rational debate and argument and not focused on small number of sad individuals.

[Lorileah]

Unfortunately - yes, there are crossdressers arrested in public bathrooms:

Every one of those links were not a a person claiming to be crossgender. You comparison is like when a guy in a monkey mask robs a bank...he wasn't a monkey So these examples are not really true.

[flatlander_48]

While that is an accurate distinction, somehow I don't think that anyone who would use that information negatively would point that out...

DeeAnn

[lisa_vin]

Every one of those links were not a a person claiming to be crossgender. You comparison is like when a guy in a monkey mask robs a bank...he wasn't a monkey So these examples are not really true.

Ah, and therein lies the rub......in these articles, they were all men "disguised as or pretending to identify as female". They were not even true crossdressers per se, only labelled as such by the media. They were not in there just to perform a normal body function or to "freshen up". They were predators and were in there under the guise of "female or trans" in order to perpetrate their crime! I don't care how you slice it.......these types of predators will always exist and even though they are a very low percentage of the overall population, their acts will always cause problems for the TRULY trans community. These types of incidents will be streamlined into, at least for the foreseeable future, "headline" news and therefore presented as prime examples of the "consequences" of legalizing the transgender bathroom issue! This IS the fear that many, many people cling to and identify with to justify their feelings and opposition to legalizing transgender bathroom usage. Because you can't single out and eliminate the "pervs", the issue will remain extremely hot button and divisive for the foreseeable future.

By the way, these are definitions of the members of our community from the GLAAD website. I thought this might be pertinent to this discussion as to one of the sources of confusion surrounding the identity/terminology of each individual within the trans community. (Using this definition, a crossdresser is not considered to be identifying as a woman so, therefore, he or she should not be legally allowed in the bathroom identifying to their style of dress!) This is just food for thought but does signify that there is a looooooong way to go on this issue.

From the GLAAD website........
Transgender woman:
People who were assigned male at birth but identify and live as a woman may use this term to describe themselves. They may shorten to trans woman. (Note: trans woman, not "transwoman.") Some may also use MTF, an abbreviation for male-to-female. Some may prefer to simply be called women, without any modifier. It is best to ask which term an individual prefers.

Cross-dresser:
While anyone may wear clothes associated with a different sex, the term cross-dresser is typically used to refer to heterosexual men who occasionally wear clothes, makeup, and accessories culturally associated with women. This activity is a form of gender expression, and not done for entertainment purposes. Cross-dressers do not wish to permanently change their sex or live full-time as women. Replaces the term "transvestite."

PLEASE NOTE: Transgender women are not cross-dressers or drag queens. Drag queens are men, typically gay men, who dress like women for the purpose of entertainment. Be aware of the differences between transgender women, cross-dressers, and drag queens. Use the term preferred by the individual. Do not use the word "transvestite" at all, unless someone specifically self-identifies that way.[/I]

[Tina_gm]

If the purpose of these bills is to keep predatory men out of the women's bathroom, then they should do the right thing by keeping men out of the men's bathrooms as well.

[Lorileah]

PLEASE NOTE: Transgender women are not cross-dressers or drag queens. Drag queens are men, typically gay men, who dress like women for the purpose of entertainment. Be aware of the differences between transgender women, cross-dressers, and drag queens. Use the term preferred by the individual. Do not use the word "transvestite" at all, unless someone specifically self-identifies that way.

I am going to reference you to the sticky about definitions; Your thinking not only is wrong, it divides us into smaller marginalized parts. Now let's ask the question "How in real life, do you tell a crossdresser from a TS (NOt transgender they are all in that boat?) You see your OWN prejudices are showing. You make an assumption before you know any facts. The articles posted were after tyhe facts hd been established, these me were criminals, perverts who used the guise to get what they wanted.


I am amazed here how many crossdressers don't see that a law against one section of is a law against all of us. Partly because crossdressers know they could in teory fade away to being "just men" so they feel that the law would not impact them.

The point I am making about the quote is if we don't get OUR own language together, how in the hell can we communicate with those who aren't in our circle. All the infighting I get to see going on in this forum is frustrating. So many want to play the game but don't want to follow the rule.

THe "Rub" as you call it is that not one...no one...in this community stood up to the media or the police and said "Listen...don't lump us with them, they are not US." Again, a bank robber isn't always blue collar low paid worker. Every minority had a hill like this to climb. How did they? They educated and informed. WE don't we hide. (excluding thos who cannot hide). There's the rub, we are not self supporting, we are in fact self destructive. Not caring is as bad as promoting wrong.

Stand up

[Tina_gm]

As guarded as I am, as much as in the closet as I am, on social media I have defended crossdressers and trans everyone against these bathroom laws. There are lots and lots of people who soak up all the babble about predators and etc etc. I know I do not do hardly as much as some, but I felt very good about what I did do. I also went against the grain of many people that I know in my area, who feel and believe that trans anyone should not be in a bathroom that is opposite their physical gender.

[flatlander_48]

The point I am making about the quote is if we don't get OUR own language together, how in the hell can we communicate with those who aren't in our circle. All the infighting I get to see going on in this forum is frustrating. So many want to play the game but don't want to follow the rule.

THe "Rub" as you call it is that not one...no one...in this community stood up to the media or the police and said "Listen...don't lump us with them, they are not US." Again, a bank robber isn't always blue collar low paid worker. Every minority had a hill like this to climb. How did they? They educated and informed. WE don't we hide. (excluding thos who cannot hide). There's the rub, we are not self supporting, we are in fact self destructive. Not caring is as bad as promoting wrong.

Stand up

L:

I'm glad you said this; all of it. Reason being, because when I have, it is followed by a half dozen folks jumping on me saying that I don't know what I'm talking about. The point is that one does not need to transition in order to see this. There seems to be this prevailing opinion that all that humans have learned in the past 100 years or so regarding rights movements and social change somehow does not apply here. Well, guess what...

It's funny. On aggregate, this is an exceedingly intelligent community. Sadly, it is also true that we suffer from some awfully powerful tunnel vision.

WE CAN DO BETTER.

DeeAnn

[bimini1]

The president of the Georgia Chapter of the ACLU has resigned in protest of the chapter's challenging of the NC law. Says the group's move smacks of special interest pandering and goes on to talk about her young daughters encountering 3 "transgenders" over 6 feet tall with deep voices in a bathroom where her daughters were visibly upset and frightened.

http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2016/06...sgender-fight/

[Zooey]

I am going to reference you to the sticky about definitions; Your thinking not only is wrong, it divides us into smaller marginalized parts. Now let's ask the question "How in real life, do you tell a crossdresser from a TS (NOt transgender they are all in that boat?) You see your OWN prejudices are showing. You make an assumption before you know any facts. The articles posted were after tyhe facts hd been established, these me were criminals, perverts who used the guise to get what they wanted.


I am amazed here how many crossdressers don't see that a law against one section of is a law against all of us. Partly because crossdressers know they could in teory fade away to being "just men" so they feel that the law would not impact them.

The point I am making about the quote is if we don't get OUR own language together, how in the hell can we communicate with those who aren't in our circle. All the infighting I get to see going on in this forum is frustrating. So many want to play the game but don't want to follow the rule.

THe "Rub" as you call it is that not one...no one...in this community stood up to the media or the police and said "Listen...don't lump us with them, they are not US." Again, a bank robber isn't always blue collar low paid worker. Every minority had a hill like this to climb. How did they? They educated and informed. WE don't we hide. (excluding thos who cannot hide). There's the rub, we are not self supporting, we are in fact self destructive. Not caring is as bad as promoting wrong.

Stand up

Lori, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here - I'm getting mixed messages, and I'm not sure I agree with your viewpoint here.

[ellbee]

I am amazed here how many crossdressers don't see that a law against one section of is a law against all of us.

I've come to see the light on that, in my own odd way...


One time a group of friends (GG's & gay males) & I were at a hetero bar. And I gotta admit that I was looking pretty "legit" that night.

But being a CD'er, I personally had no issue with using the men's room.


Well, apparently some male stranger did -- as he politely told me as I exited that this was the men's room, and that the women's was around the corner. Um, what?? LOL

One in my group saw what happened, and afterwards told me that I really should be using the women's room for the rest of the night. I thought they were kidding around, but three others who were part of the conversation genuinely agreed.


I honestly didn't want to, out of respect for the GG's. But looking back, I suppose there was no way in heck I was going to be able to pass as a *guy* whatsoever that night, ha!

And so, I used the women's room the rest of our time there. It was just a "single," so there was no issue with that. But one time as I exited, there was a GG outside the door, waiting her turn. We exchanged the "polite smile" thing -- I have no idea if I was read or not on that one. But nothing out of the ordinary that I felt, anyway.


So, 5 to 6 people (call it 5 & a half, to be safe?) "polled" -- basically everyone -- saw no issue with me using the women's room. Even though I didn't want to, I kind of had no choice, since that microcosm of society expected it in order to keep things running smoothly for everyone there.

Obviously I was going to defer to that -- and not some law that I may have apparently been breaking. I suppose it's all about using good judgement in these situations. And trying to legislate that as a "one-size-fits-all" just doesn't work!

[heatherdress]

Every one of those links were not a a person claiming to be crossgender. You comparison is like when a guy in a monkey mask robs a bank...he wasn't a monkey So these examples are not really true.

Sorry Lorileah - you can't have it both ways. Each of those people were transgender individuals, by your own definition - crossdressers. These examples are definitely "really true" examples of transgender individuals - crossdressers - arrested in women's rest rooms dressed and presenting as female. Unfortunately we have seen examples of voyeurism in this forum and it does exist to some degree in crossdressing and thus in the transgender community. And crossdressers who are voyeurs have just as much right to every linger in ladies rooms as any other member of our transgender community - by definition.

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

I was in an older restaurant in DC which converted both rest rooms to "gender neutral". It was not a very efficient system because they eliminated urinals from the former men's rest room which reduced capacity significantly. An elderly woman also complained to the restaurant owner that there was now always urine on the toilets and on the floors in both bathrooms which was disgusting to her. It was, however, rather meaningless due to the single capacity both rest rooms had.

But for those who really think that gender-neutral bathrooms are the solution, let me ask what protection is there from the "bathroom bullies" who will follow a transgender person into open-gender bathrooms simply to harass them? Guess what - the comfort or security you used to have using the ladies room would no longer exist. Is that really progress?

[Lorileah]

They were transgender? OK let me refer you to a book, "Black like me" he wasn't black but presented as such. Didn't make him black. There have been other examples of this in other situations. THese MEN dressed to break a law. They didn't identify as being TG in any form except when they were caught. If those men had dressed as police, would they then be police? Yes I can have it both ways. One member here years ago said "just because you have frosting on your head doesn't make you a cupcake" If a man wears a mask to rob a bank does not make him the Lone Ranger.

Why would single room restrooms be meaningless? It seems a very good solution to me. You have a room to yourself, you have a door that locks, you can feel safe. Why would that be meaningless? Because it doesn't open up a large room to everyone? This isn't "separate but equal". This is "Everyone has the same opportunity" . Seems logical in this day. No one gets, more. No one gets less. And no one gets to be concerned who else in there with them. I think for a small venue, this is an ideal situation.

Comfort and security to...? There was never security. The doors swung no matter who was in there. It was "Perceived" security. Still is. There are laws supposedly protecting everyone from attacks in these rooms, and yet...as the old saying goes, one could walk right through that piece of paper and do your damage.

[Zooey]

But really, how can you not see that if all public rest room facilities are genderless, those of us who feel comfortable using ladies rooms - as we always have without difficulty - will no longer have the comfort of a female environment when we are dressed as females. There will very definitely be more occasions of uncomfortable exchanges when jerk guys can harass those of us who look like men in a dress when we have to use the bathroom.

I'm sorry, but why do you need the "comfort of a female environment" just because you're wearing stereotypically women's clothing?

You need a safe bathroom, not the female environment.