Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces

[Zooey]

Amanda, I think you may have skipped over some content here. If not, you may want to re-read what I've actually said here, because I think you've misinterpreted things.

When I say "in general", I mean "in general". There are a number of posts in this thread where I've given examples and explained what I'm talking about. Please read them, and then we can talk.

[Teresa]

Amanda,
Taking up your point about the possibility of being assaulted , I wonder how many attacks actually happen ? There is another side to this , with the increase in girl gangs I wonder how many women have been assaulted and robbed in women's facilities ?

I realise this is not part of the original thread, to me it has more importance than debating whose space we occupy .

[Zooey]

Teresa, this thread is nearing its conclusion, and has already been driven all over the map. If there's something important to you that you'd like to discuss but that is not on topic here, I suggest starting a new thread.

[Alice Torn]

I think some must have blinders on, or heads in the sand, to NOT see, how things have RADICALLY CHANGED for men. OVER 60% of college grads are female now! The suicide rate for men is much HIGHER, than for women! More men are out of work, than women, now. (Men Adrift . The Economist May 30 2015 issue) ( Economist.com) And the pay for women and men is basically the same today. Bogus facts distort the true wage gap. In fact, the single women i have know, all made more money than the single men i have known. Women who are legal secretaries, heads of offices. Men-laborers, temp workers, auto parts drivers, security guards, janitors. In my experience,the women i have dated, had far better incomes, than i did. I also have known of women raped by other women. And i was sexually assaulted by a woman once, when i refused to have sex. We don't get all the truth and facts, in the drive by media.

[Zooey]

I once owned a cat that could reliably solve multi-stage problems and knew how to monitor a kibble supply chain. If you can't see how men are being subjugated by these cats thanks to so called "felinists", you must be blind (more like feliNAZIS, amirite?)...

All joking aside... Alice, if you want to talk about the men's rights activism issues that you're clearly very passionate about then I would suggest starting a new thread about the disenfranchisement of men. Unless you believe that your perceived disenfranchisement is justification for a man to feel self-entitled to access women's spaces, it's not in topic here.

[Marcelle]

Hi Zooey,

Firstly, I respect your opinion and tenacity for digging your heels in on this point and originally I was not going to reply to the thread as I feel it has been beat to death, brought back, beat again rinse and repeat. However, I thought I might give my perspective as a trans woman.

I am sure there are many cis women who have run across me in the room which shall go unnamed (nasty B word that it is ) who probably think one of two things . . . cross dresser or transsexual. I am also sure that some may feel put off by my presence and feel I have no place in that room and who do I think I am being in there. I also believe most don't care. I have had conversations with my cis female friends and asked them point blank if they feel I am invading some sort of private haven. To a person, they have all stated "no". It is a room which provides for a specific biological function with stalls to do your business, wash up and leave. One friend told me "Heck it is not like a sisterhood of the travelling pants moment in there, we pee and leave" . Now this could be a factor of being a military sample I suppose and not reflective of the civilian world . . . heck I have had female soldiers squat at the first available spot in plain view to pee while deployed on operations while I was doing my business at the tree beside them.

To be honest, I personally do not feel any CDer who goes through the process of presenting as woman (regardless of how they identify) who wants to answer nature's call in place where they would feel safer, does their business, washes hands and leaves is exerting any male privilege by forcing themselves into a women's space. They just want to avoid being potentially beat by some disgruntled Bubba who has a hate on for trans folk. Now, I would agree that if a CDer enters a women's restroom just to snap some trophy pics of the big moment or sees this as some sexual thrill then yes, they are not behaving correctly and have not business in there . . . it is for one purpose only and not a thrill source. However, I would argue that for a great percentage of the CD population on this forum most just pee and leave, others use single use toilets and some don't go at all. In a perfect world it would be gender neutral (you know what) and you even stated you could get behind that . . . so let's shove this 300 pound elephant into the corner give it a mint julep and let her rest.

Where I feel your argument has credence is spaces where everything you have is on display for whoever happens to be in the room (e.g., locker rooms). However, I am confident that for the membership here . . . none would ever try to do that. Heck I may consider myself a woman but I am also cognizant that I am physiologically male and I would never deign to try and exert my right to enter the women's locker room at work. So my take home . . . bathrooms (eek . . . did she just use the "B" word) in North America IMHO are considered "gender specific space" by convention only. I think we can all agree that depending on where you are in the world the concept of gender specific bathrooms would be odd (i.e., France). I think the concept of privacy in bathrooms is more specific to I have a stall and can do my thing in private with the rest coming down to cleanliness and I have used some nasty women's bathrooms . . . the concept of toilet hovering comes to mind. A gender specific bathroom IMO does not afford safety from attack as a woman can be assaulted in a bathroom by a man regardless of the sign on the door. On the other hand, spaces such as locker rooms by convention are gender specific because of the intimacy of the situation (i.e., you are naked) and the sense of vulnerability is much higher so a requirement to segregate is deeply rooted. However, I have yet to read any CDer posting here stating they have the right to enter such a room.

As an aside, when I was posted to Germany, I went to a spa several times where everyone is walking around naked as the day they were born and it was not uncommon to share a sauna bench with the opposite gender and bathrooms were gender neutral . . . nobody cared. But to illustrate how deeply rooted the sense of privacy for gender specific spaces can still be . . . the locker rooms were gender specific.

Just to confirm, not hacking on your post . . . just providing my thoughts to pyre

Marcelle

[flatlander_48]

Z:

In the future, I would caution against "not male/not female". That seems to suggest a nothingness and that's not positive. Personally, and perhaps for others, it is a simultaneous combination of male and female. It is coexistence. Certainly more male than female, but the female is significant. For example, my default for problem solving is an intuitive approach. Logic is used, but it is to validate (or not validate) the result of the intuitive process. I suspect that very few engineers work like that, but it is what I did for 43+ years.

Again personally, the idea of entitlement (and believe me, I know what it is) never crossed my mind. It has to do with expediency. And, having an average (at best) physique that is compromised by chronic illness, I see no reason to deliberately put myself in harm's way.

Discussion of gender neutral facilities borders on the pointless. Not because it isn't a good idea, but because it will take an exceedingly long time to implement. Recently I mention the ADA here in the US. The Americans with Disabilities Act was created to define what needed to change in order to accommodate people with disabilities in public places. It covered things like ramp, door and restroom stall dimensions, established penalties for not meeting requirements, etc. The enforcement has been going on for 24 years and there are still many places that are not barrier free. The big stumbling block is the expense of the accommodations and that has always been the issue. But, think about this in the context of the Transgender Community. Gender neutral facilities are also expensive AND many of the people who would decide such things DON'T LIKE US. So the question is, what do you think the chances are?

And finally, I offer the image below without comment.

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

Again, I strongly encourage everybody to read carefully what I actually said in this thread. For everybody who keeps insisting on bringing up bathrooms in particular, and "facilities" more generally, you are fundamentally missing the idea that I'm trying to discuss here.

FL: I did not ever say "not male/not female", nor did I say the more appropriate "not masculine/not feminine".

I said "not man/not woman", with man and woman being gender identities predominantly existing at either end of the binary. There are people who identify in the middle, like yourself, and I'm led to believe that they are neither man nor woman. As I understand it, they possess qualities associated with each in varying measure, but they are another identity entirely.

[jenni_xx]

1) being in female mode in the "mens space" is likely to end in a hospital visit

As opposed to being in female mode in a space that men occupy?

Is THAT likely to end in a hospital visit?

What exactly is the justification in making your comment? Has this actually happened to you? Did you indeed go into a men's bathroom while dressed as a woman and as a result end up in hospital?

Do men all of a sudden (ie when they are in a space where only men are around) turn into raging monsters who will attack anyone who doesn't look like a man?

The mere suggestion that this would happen simply has to be based upon the very notion that these men will instantly recognise you as a crossdresser and as a consequence of THAT alone. attack you. Meaning that the crossdresser in question doesn't pass as a woman because they would have been instantly recognised as a man. If this isn't the case, that is, you aren't instantly recognised as a man, then the implications of what you have actually said here is that in such a scenario we are actually talking men who will violently attack people who look like women simply for entering a men's bathroom. Or in other words, men who will violently attack women, resulting in said women (in your words) ending up in hospital.

This thread has annoyed me greatly, and your comment has annoyed me the most. I'm not annoyed because this thread exists - I agree with the reasons why Zooey has created this thread completely. What has annoyed me is the comment and the inference in your comment that you have made.

The fact is rather that you yourself are scared to enter such a male only space because in such a space you will end up feeling vulnerable, regardless of whether anything negative happens or not. Which is exactly the same reason that women will use in regards to not wanting you to frequent their "space" as well. The fact is that YOU are scared to enter a man's bathroom dressed as a woman. Well, I'm sorry, but in my opinion you being scared does not justify you entering a woman's bathroom. And that is the bottom line for me.

Men, or more specifically, men who cd. Own your own balls, don't deny them. Walk loud and be proud of who you are - a MAN who likes to dress in female clothing. Use the male only spaces because you have just as much right to use those spaces as any other man. What you are not entitled to do is encroach on a female only space just because you are wearing clothes and make-up that "belongs" to the female gender. Putting on a dress does not make you a woman, and it's about time every single CD realised that.

[ReineD]

Again, I strongly encourage everybody to read carefully what I actually said in this thread. For everybody who keeps insisting on bringing up bathrooms in particular, and "facilities" more generally, you are fundamentally missing the idea that I'm trying to discuss here.

I spoke of bathrooms, sorry ... but it's been all over the news with a lot of people getting upset and it is still unresolved in some Southern states. I also mentioned locker rooms and saunas, both places where people get naked which is different than places where they don't get naked. And I spoke of other loosely gendered events, like female friends wanting to get together exclusively (without males present) and the same for men who enjoy getting together to engage in certain activities without females present (sports, poker, or what have you).

You or someone else brought up private men's golf clubs, someone else brought up the extremist feminist lesbian groups who do not accept transwomen. There are also exclusively boys and girls schools and colleges. I suppose we can also include gay clubs that don't welcome lesbians and vice versa, if there are such clubs.

Did you have any specific gendered places and events in mind, that CDers who identify as men might wish to be included? Some past members have mentioned joining groups like quilting bees and knitting circles, but as far as I know these groups were predominately female simply because most men aren't or have not been interested in quilting and knitting, and not because these women had a desire to keep men out.

[flatlander_48]

Message #1 and #25. I didn't rescan the other pages. But the point is that there it a combined situation and not nothing. There is no one that is nothing. Please rethink your words.

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

FL: I'm not calling anybody "nothing". Saying green is neither yellow nor blue does not negate its existence.

Reine: what I'm interested in talking about is the principle underlying all of those things, including things like women's social groups, discussion groups, conferences, panels, etc.

Against my better judgement, I'm going to mention bathrooms in order to clarify what I'm talking about. Basically, there are two arguments I see here for why CDs should be using the women's restroom.

1) There is a safety issue in the men's room, and so female presenting men should be allowed in
2) If you're dressed as a woman, you're a woman, regardless of whether you otherwise consider yourself a man

#1 is sadly legitimate. #2, in my opinion, is not a valid argument, because we KNOW identity is separate from presentation. Let's break down #1... There are two possible solutions to that problem.

1) De-gender bathrooms, i.e. eliminate gendered bathrooms and make them all gender neutral.
2) Self-identified men should be allowed to access spaces designated for women

I am in favor of #1, because it resolves the specific safety issue as best we can over time without having to deconstruct the value of gender. Because I believe women's spaces are valuable, but not when men are allowed free entry, I am not in favor of #2. I view the current discussions around #2, here and in the political world, as short term solutions at best. #1 is the real solution.

End of bathroom discussions.

So given all of that... For people who argue for solution #2 and whose argument is also predicated on the "when dressed, I'm a woman" argument, where does it stop, and why? If we remove the word "bathroom", and talk about women's spaces in general terms, does that same sense of entitlement to access those spaces still apply? If so, is that reasonable?

[Nigella]

End of thread, this is just going round and round and round

[Tamara Croft]

Wow.... I go away for a few days and it's like all hell broke lose on the board!!! I know Nigella locked this thread, however I think the behaviour in this thread needs addressing.

You see the new notice that's gone up? no? try looking at the top of the page, you can't miss it, it's in a bright yellow box... just incase you really aren't seeing it... which would mean you needed glasses....

This forum has rules which all members agree to when they sign up for the forum. We accept that members may have issues from time to time with moderation, however, we do not allow moderation to be discussed on the main boards. If you have an issue with moderation start a thread in the private help forum.

....and one of the reasons is THIS thread and the disgusting behaviour of some members in it. Not only is it full of hatred, vile comments and trolling, there seems to be this TS v's CD'ers bullshit again and a comment by a GG that absolutely floored me (and you're well aware I am a GG)!! And then, you get the disgruntled members sending nasty PM's to staff for closing it, which resulted in 2 of them being banned for the nasty vile way they spoke to members of staff.

If it were up to me, I'd ban the whole lot of you from the board for a month for the bullshit in this thread, however you're lucky it's not just up to me... But you mark my words and mark them clearly, you are all on my list and you break one rule, just ONE and you'll be out, gone, banned. The last couple of weeks have been horrendous on this forum, it's like all the trolls came out to play all in one go and caused a shit storm on the forum. Well today is your last day of causing a shit storm on this forum, because anymore of it and you'll be out. If you have something to say about this, then feel free to PM me, but if you're going to PM me to give me a mouthful or troll or generally piss me off, then don't bother, because my boot will be up your ass so quick you'll be banned. If that isn't clear enough, then get some glasses!!!!!