MGTOW: A possible inspiration for DADT-afflicted CDers?

[Leslie Langford]

Some of you here may already have heard of a movement that has recently sprung up and which is gradually gaining momentum called MGTOW, or "Men Going Their Own Way". In essence, it is a backlash against the institutionalized feminism that has become such a force in the Western world in the last 50 years or so, and is meant to empower men against the way women often try to control us to do their bidding through manipulation, subtle coercion, guilt, and that old standby - the promise of great sex if we just toe the line. Attached are a couple of links that explain what that philosophy is all about:

https://www.mgtow.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEk4rUqvVhY

Sure, the MGTOW movement has attracted its fair share of misogynists, mouth-breathing Neanderthals, Bubbas, and assorted other A-holes, just as feminism often finds itself having to deal with the virulent misandrists, TERF's ("Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists"), and professional victims in their midst, and which often give it a bad name as well. And yet, I can see how the one movement may have begotten the other, with both sides of the great Mars/Venus divide staking out their respective positions. I can also see where some of the MGTOW's are coming from, although not necessarily with the simplistic approach some of them have adopted, nor some of their perhaps mean-spirited retaliatory tactics.

And yet...for those of us trapped in miserable DADT relationships not of our choosing, and where our wives or SO's seem to hold all the power that we have reluctantly yielded to them when it comes to controlling our crossdressing for the sake of peace, who among us wouldn't also want to say, "Hell, yeah! Maybe these guys have a point when it comes to growing a pair..."

So I ask - has the time come for us CDers to band together and start a similar movement... a CDGTOW "Crossdressers Going Their Own Way"
analog to MGTOW if you will, and one that will liberate us from DADT once and for all?

[Tracii G]

The reason for the MGTOW movement is the way women have treated men.I'm glad men are finally standing up for themselves.
Now some CD's here have the idea that they are feminists and they will tell you all about how men have held women back so get ready for the backlash.
You are going to hear all men are misogynists,xnenophobs,homophobes yadda yadda.
This has the makings of a great thread or not.LOLOL

[Laura912]

Leslie, now you've done gone and poked the hornets nest! Not too sure there is a parallel between the forces driving DADT and MGTOW.

[Teresa]

Leslie,
I go go for it 100% !

DADT is destructive in so many ways, OK I've said this before but being reduced to almost ending your life is as bad as it gets . The rejection, lack of understanding and not wanting to accept some men are wired this way. Most of my conversations usually end with me feeling guilty about how my Cding is affecting our relationship, it's mostly give with very little take . I don't think most men would take the hurtful comments if they weren't in a CDing situation so why should we, I try so hard not to hurt her back, all it ends up with is me suppressing anger and resentment.
I know my wife isn't that stupid not to realise the hurt it causes, I've told her more than once how much I hurt inside, somehow it feels more like a punishment I must endure because of something I can't change.

Sorry folks, I'm having a tough time at the moment, I've looked deeper into AGP and I know it's my problem, the frustration is my wife is never going to understand or even try to let me explain any of that. I'm so desperate to go full time , CDGTOW 100% !!

[sometimes_miss]

MGTOW is nothing new. Alpha males have practiced this forever. It's basically just being sure to be the one who 'loves less', staying in charge of the relationship. For most men, it doesn't happen until too late, after we've been burned badly in a divorce settlement, crippling any further socializing by removing so much of our salaries and assets and giving them to our ex wives and family and leaving the man alone, to survive at a subsistence level of life.

[Amelie]

I think there is some sort of control in all relationships. Even with me, the guys wanted me to do what they wanted me to do. I had to give in to their demands on how I should live my life. Some thought being a goth was cute until they wanted me to stop and change to their way of being. So even if the person knew I was trans or a goth, they still tried to restrict how I live my life. So instead of changing my life, I moved on, sometimes it took awhile to move on but eventually I did.

I can't answer being DADT cause I am not in a relationship with a female or have a family like others here have. If I feel that someone is pressuring me to be something I am not, then I move on. This is kinda how I feel about others, sometimes if you wish to live the way you want, sometimes you have to do it alone or until you meet that right person. If the other person can't change the way you live, then you probably won't change the way they feel either.

I only write the above from my experiences, it not meant for everyone. I never heard of MGTOW until just now.

[Allisa]

I've found the solution to DADT marriages...don't get married, I didn't. Get ready ... no ball and chain around my ankle, now bring on the hate and envy.

[sweetdreams]

This is such a difficult topic especially when the discussions happen sometime later in a marriage. The consequences can be dramatic. I'll tell you a little about my life to illustrate how I've dealt with my CDing in my relationships.....

CDing has always been there. I haven't always understood it well enough or handled it well. The worst I did was when I first married. I was 20 and the wife was 18. I didn't tell her about it before we got married, but it surfaced early on and I wanted to share it with her. At this point there were no children or a mortgage. It would have been relatively easy to go our separate ways if that's what was needed. The wife was somewhat accepting and things continued rolling along. CDing was something I did occasionally. I kept a collection of lingerie that the wife knew about and every once in a while I would underdress or wear pretty things when we were intimate. Stockings were/are my big thing.

As things continued my CDing changed. I tried to make it more of a natural part of my life. I would wear panties pretty much 24/7 at times. We had children, had a mortgage, all the trappings of a relationship. Things were generally good. Then the mid-life crises hit when I was around 40. The relationship strained. It wasn't related to my CDing. It was other things. We went to counseling. Lots of things were talked about including my CDing. I need to emphasize the CDing was not the elephant in the room but merely something needing to be discussed. The wife did go to a therapist of her own. Her therapist was less than supportive toward CDing and warned of future escalation. Again this was not our biggest problem. In the end of all of this we separated and later divorced.

So at this point I was single and wanting to find a new relationship. One of the big take-aways I had from our therapy sessions was the need to be out with CDing early in the relationship, not on the first date or anything like that but before things became really serious. I made a commitment to my self and whoever I got involve with, that this would be out in the open.

When this happened there was no internet. I decided the best way to connect with people was through the personal ads in newspapers. I placed a couple of well written ads (specific to who I was and looking for). I met some of the girls who responded for lunch or coffee to get to know each other better. Most didn't work out but a couple did.

The first girl I started to date was very open minded. We didn't get to the point of a serious long term relationship. I didn't bring up the CDing topic but one Halloween I decided to test the waters a little bit. I got girlied up as best as I could (no makeup or a wig). This was essentially a guy in a dress with all the trimmings. I headed over to her house. Her first reaction was "oh, I wondered if you had a creative side." As the evening went along she put a wig on me and was actively playing with the situation. She tried to get me to strip down a little. I didn't (what a dummy). The evening ended with her asking me if I enjoyed dressing in girls clothes a lot, a little, or not really. I said a lot. She told me to keep the lingerie and we would have a girls night out sometime. Things moved along and we didn't progress much farther due to other reasons.

The second relationship was much more serious. We dated for several months and things felt pretty good for both of us. This girl was divorced and had a couple of kids at home who were in their teens. As things moved along she suggested it was time for me to move in with them (she had a house, I lived in an apartment). This was the time I decided to tell her about my CDing. She came over one evening and we had the talk. Basically I said something like "It's a little embarrassing. I don't know where this comes from but it's there. I like to dress in girls clothes." She wasn't shocked. She didn't cry. She was just processing the information. A few days went past. She had talked with her therapist who was supportive and said it's no big deal, it's just clothes. The GF told me it was OK. I decided to put it to the test to make sure. She came over one evening and I got girlied up again as best as I could (still no makeup or wigs). She knocked on the door, I opened it and there I was. She smiled and came in. Again she was processing the information. She had never really encountered this kind of situation. Well what good timing, the ex phoned right then. There I was in full dress, standing in front of the GF, and talking to the ex. The ex wouldn't get off the phone. Normally we have quick conversation that last a minute or two. This time she wanted to chat about all kinds of stuff. Meanwhile the GF is ogling me. Finally I get off the phone and walk up to the GF. She slides her hand up my dress to see what I have on underneath the dress. It wasn't more than a minute or two and she took me by the hand into the bedroom. Game on. We made love while I was fully dressed and she liked it. The relationship progressed, I moved in, and for a couple of years it was wonderful. I could go into lots more detail but this would digress from this thread and what I'm trying to get to.

I came to a crossroad in my life. I had the chance to move to a different city for work. The relationship with the GF was a little rocky. I was essentially looking for a way to end it. This was my chance. GF and I were going to therapy. The ex also surfaced and wanted to reconcile. The potential move to a different city was forcing the issue. I basically had two girls wanting to be with me. I had to make some decisions. To make a long story short, I reconciled with the ex. We are back together for another 20 years (so far). The CDing was certainly out in the open.

My point in this rather lengthy discussion (sorry for being long winded) is if you are true to yourself, things can work out. I made the commitment to myself to make sure the CD part of me was accepted and embraced to some degree. It had to have a home in a warm and loving relationship. If I would have encountered someone who was not willing to have this as part of the relationship, things would have ended. I never had this happen. I'm not saying there haven't been compromises, but I will say for me living in a DADT or a total rejection wouldn't work. My CDing is a special part of me that needs to be accommodated. MGTOW? Absolutely for me but not in an uncaring, ruthless ultimatum kind of way. Again a relationship has to be warm and loving, and if I'm with someone who is so callous as to give me an ultimatum or start laying down hard and fast rules to accommodate only her, well that just wouldn't work for me. I might wear a dress but I still have a pair.

[CarlaWestin]

The reason for the MGTOW movement is the way women have treated men.I'm glad men are finally standing up for themselves.
Now some CD's here have the idea that they are feminists and they will tell you all about how men have held women back so get ready for the backlash.
You are going to hear all men are misogynists,xnenophobs,homophobes yadda yadda.
This has the makings of a great thread or not.LOLOL

I'm certainly with you on this one, Tracii. I can't recall ever being in a relationship that was manipulative. My ex pretended to like my CD activity to collect divorce data. I'm in my big booby, skater skirt comfort zone while DADT sleeps in. It's pretty calm but, it took a while for her to see that I am really the same person. And, she seems to want to play the victim routine until I mention that when the knight in shining armor shows up to sweep her away, he can't park his horse in my garage.

In my sixty-one years I've come to the conclusion that there are only two types of people in the world.
Victims and Problem Solvers. I've done very well with the latter.

[Micki_Finn]

"for those of us trapped in miserable DADT relationships not of our choosing" Are you kidding me? I wasn't aware that there were states/provinces where divorce was illegal. Unless she's got you chained up in the basement it most certainly IS of your choosing.

[CONSUELO]

This is the first time I have heard of MGTOW. I think it is a silly idea. Feminism and equal rights are issues for a good reason: women were treated unequally and poorly for a long long time and it needed correction. It would be too easy for this so-called movement to become a cover for misogyny and boorishness.

I told my spouse before we were married and she was happy to go ahead. I don't think she understood what being married to a fetishistic transvestite truly meant and she did not do any research on the issue. So problems arose.

We are still together but not because I joined some silly "movement". I asserted myself and my needs. This is what I am and have been since the age of about 5 and this is what I shall remain being. It wasn't easy and there was much conflict but the relationship survived.

What we really need is for cross dressers to acknowledge who they are and assert themselves. We seem to love to exist in the shadows.

[Tracii G]

Consuelo how is a man standing up for himself a silly idea you did it.
Oh here come the buzzword misogyny (look people here it is again).
What about women that take and not give in a relationship where does that fit in?
What about all the CD's here in DADT relationships that are miserable how is that acceptable?
Women need to be equal in the eyes of the law and be treated fairly I totally agree but they do not have the right to force their mate to be something he is not.
I guess I'm weird because most of the women I know think the whole feminist "movement" currently is a bunch of bs.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Wow, that was one of the most hateful web sites, ive seen in a long time. DADT is mostly used in conjution with the passing of information. I've spoken to people who have DADT in the context of these areas as well.:
. religion
. politics.
. extra marital relationships
. work
. family

The MGTOW from what ive read from the OP links is more about giving men self permission to act and behave like d*cks towards women.

From the quotes section, I got a sense of high school pre pubescent teens who have been rejected by the object of their adoration and now are sulking in their room plotting revenge.

[Tracii G]

Kelly I can see where you might think it gives a guy permission to be a prick but look deeply, what caused the guy to feel that way?
I'm not advocating being mean to women just because you can its about being fair to men and not running their lives.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Tracii;

I'll limit my reply to how DADT becomes a factor in a Crossdressers life on this site, excluding Transgeder couples.

Ive read many stories over the years on this site and a majority of them have a good relationship with the one exception their spouse or SO has withheld the information that they dress in women's clothing. Once they have the talk, the woman now has to process the information and may come to the decision that "I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to know about it" and it becomes DADT. How is that being unfair to men and ruining their lives ? They are the ones who have had their perceptions of what their man is.

[Tracii G]

I totally understand where you are coming from and if both agree to the arrangement then OK.
All are not like that we all have read about those relationships on this site and many marriages dissolved over it.
Those are the ones I was referring to.

[Leslie Langford]

Leslie, now you've done gone and poked the hornets nest! Not too sure there is a parallel between the forces driving DADT and MGTOW.

Yes, that's me...guilty as charged! I'm not a huge fan of the namby-pamby, middle-of-the-road path of political correctness just because - God forbid! - some "inconvenient truths" might offend the more faint-of-heart out there.

Sure, some of Sandman's comments in the linked video might be a bit over-the-top when it comes to his spin on male-female relationship dynamics, but he does have the "cojones" to call a spade a spade. Like it or not, innate biological imperatives are at the root of what drives male and female behaviors when it comes to the relationship/mating dance, and the two camps often come at this from different directions - and certainly from the standpoint of their motivations. Fundamental to this are the associated power dynamics, the need for self-preservation, and the biological urge to keep procreating in order to ensure the survival of the species.

I may not agree with everything that Sandman and the MGTOW adherents proclaim when it comes to navigating the Mars/Venus minefield, but one thing I am convinced of... females - regardless of whether or not this is biologically or culturally induced, and rightly or wrongly - often see much of their worth and self-esteem tied to their perceived sexual attractiveness - or lack thereof.

There have been many debates on this forum as to whether or not our wives' and SOs' aversion to our crossdressing may be rooted in a "fear" of the alleged competition to their innate femininity that the crossdressing spouse represents. The GG's then invariably chime in to shoot that POV down in flames, and let those posters know in no uncertain terms just how full of sh*t they really are, and how no amount of external "female" trappings in the way we might be presenting ourselves is a substitute for the real deal. Fair enough, but then again, noted French author Simone de Beauvoir once famously declared "One is not born a woman; one becomes one"... but I digress.

So yes, while we may not realistically be competing with our wives and SO's on the "true, inborn femininity" playing field, our self-absorption with what we see as our particular feminine sides still sticks in their craws. Getting back to Sandman's point...and here is where I draw a parallel between DADT and some of the drivers behind the MGTOW movement - the fact that our attention is being directed away from them in favor of the "other woman" (in this case, our alter egos) is what drives our partners crazy, and they use every means at their disposal...guilt, shaming, threats of exposure etc. to subvert us in our endeavors and to try to re-assert their psychological control over us.

[TinaMc]

Gawd, the MGTOW is on the loony fringe of the MRA movement, which is already a loony movement.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Yes, that's me...guilty as charged! I'm not a huge fan of the namby-pamby, middle-of-the-road path of political correctness just because - God forbid! - some "inconvenient truths" might offend the more faint-of-heart out there.

Sure, some of Sandman's comments in the linked video might be a bit over-the-top when it comes to his spin on male-female relationship dynamics, but he does have the "cojones" to call a spade a spade. Like it or not, innate biological imperatives are at the root of what drives male and female behaviors when it comes to the relationship/mating dance, and the two camps often come at this from different directions - and certainly from the standpoint of their motivations. Fundamental to this are the associated power dynamics, the need for self-preservation, and the biological urge to keep procreating in order to ensure the survival of the species.

Some of the comments are a bit over the top ? Like these quotes:
... By the age of twelve at the latest, most women have decided to become prostitutes. Or, to put it another way they have planned a future for themselves which consists of choosing a man and letting him do all the work.
... Western ****s, get across the message that your only interest is to perform the most degrading sex acts you can think of before severing all contact. And don’t really care if they don’t want to, because you can easily find some other **** who will
This view is more then a bit over the top

[JeanTG]

I had to do a double-take... for me, MGTOW means Maximum Gross Take-Off Weight....

Anyway the new meaning doesn't resonate with me. While I think men often come up short with the feminist movement, I think it's like any other pendulum swing. Eventually it will come back near the middle to a more balanced and nuanced position.

Men and women are different, including sexually, and we just have to learn to live with it. DADT is necessary because our getting all dolled up plays on one of women's greatest anxieties, insecurity or fear of losing her man. I think it's a primal fear, not based on rationality, but nonetheless very real and we ignore it at our peril. A very few manage to overcome that and embrace their feminine husbands, but my experience is that they are rare. To those married to one, realize how precious a gift you've got!

[CONSUELO]

Don't get me wrong. I am fully in support of those members of our community asserting themselves and standing up for their rights as an individual. What I don't see the point of is to align those perfectly sensible actions with a movement that includes attitudes that appear misogynistic.

Honesty, respect for and by individuals in a relationship and so forth are all good things. I sympathize with those who feel trapped in an oppressive DADT situation and hope they can find the strength to stand up and demand to be treated fairly and with respect.

[JeanTG]

Consuelo, my wife has always spoken of how difficult it is to tolerate my dressing but reluctantly she does (in DADT except for underwear which is unrestricted).

You may have hear about the Muslim murders at a mosque in Quebec City, which is far too close to home for comfort. That got a discussion going about tolerance. I said tolerance is not enough; tolerance means "reluctantly putting up with". We need to move beyond tolerance to acceptance. I said "I as much as anyone else know this". She agreed heartily. I left it at that, but I hope that opened the door a crack.

In an ideal world we'd even move beyond "acceptance" to "embracing", but I can understand how seeing me dressed up could bother her and would never want to make her uncomfortable in that way. But I'd like to be in the open, me out of the figurative closet and my clothes in the real closet, and my bras and pantyhose in my lingerie drawer where my panties, at least, already are.

I think it requires give-and-take. I wouldn't be too happy, for example, to see my wife in boxer briefs and a fake beard, putting on a man's suit and tie in the morning, so I can understand why the opposite would turn her off. We have to learn to respect each others' boundaries. I can't ask my wife to be turned on by what turns her off.

But like you I don't think men asserting their rights should be associated with misogyny.

[Valery L]

Do not compare MGTOW with that feminist crap, it is not an anti-feminism movement, nor an egalitarian ideology. To start with, MGTOW is not a social movement, it is just a personal decision. Men going their own way is just the term used to identify those male individuals who refuse to follow the expected role of a provider in a marriage or any other form or relationship with a woman. They prefer to use their time and resources in other things, such as fulfilling their needs, professional and economic goals. Society expects men to maintain women (in general), to be providers, etc. That expectation made sense before, but with women empowerment, it does not make much sense now, in western societies women have more rights than men, but not the same obligations. The feminist collective demands more and more rights, and has turned the legal system into a joke against men. For that reason, marriage and divorce right now are amazing business for many women who want to receive money for doing nothing, regardless of if they destroy the life of their men or not. That is the main reason MGTOW exists, marriage is a bad business for men. The system makes it that way and there is almost nothing that can be done to change that. Therefore it is reasonable for men, to avoid marriage or any other kind of relationship that endangers them in any economic and legal way. Of course a man taking that decisions sacrifices the possibility of having a family, from some men the price might be to high or not, that is their decision, but of course there are arguments to support their choice if they decide to be MGTOW. Until the absurd system changes and makes marriage a fair deal again, it is completely reasonable to avoid it at all costs (from men perspective). It is common sense, nobody wants to go to jail or to spend money for someone else's children.

[XemmaX]

hmmm i get that these ideas come from a painful place for many but i do think mgtow seems to have some serious problematic undertones and appears to be close to the very sexist anti feminist mens rights movement. i would hope that cding will never associate itself with anything like that. that being said dadt is a painful situation to be in but i hate to say it's avoidable by being open about this stuff and talking to your partner. you know if someone doesn't fully accept you as you are then maybe you need to move on. sure it's sad but why stay. i have been open early on about this stuff to partners in previous relationships and if they react in a way that they didnt accept then i left as why would i have stayed with someone who didnt accept an important part of me that will never go away. this dont ask dont tell situations can make one feel like they are trapped But i think this changes when cd's start to come out of the shadows and assert who they are and what they want out of life.

[DeeDeeB]

Sorry, but MGTOW, DADT, MRA - WTF - doesn't any one speak English any more? I refuse to call the president POTUS, even though in this case it is a compliment, or the supreme court SCOTUS, even though it reminds me of the body part it reminds me of.

Sorry, but I may be too old for this thread.

Dee

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

Sorry for my previous thread, but I don’t text and I do like the English language.

That aside, there is no doubt in my mind that we need to shamelessly (that means without shame, because we shouldn’t have any) express ourselves. That is easy for me to say since my wife already fully accepts me. I also know my inhibitions about going out in public are my own. But there is a real movement going on for all us trans folk, and we each need to decide how much we want to push it forward. I know ladies who have been on the forefront for years, working to get us where we are now. They have faced untold rejection, litigation, and medical issues because of a general rejection of who they (we) are. When I was in college, crossdressing was a crime. Now, years later we are fighting for the right to use the proper restroom. It is a continuing struggle and will be even more challenging in the current political climate. I fully understand we all need to be accepted in our own homes first, but when you can, please move forward to promote the common good. As they say, united we stand, divided we fall.

Anyhow, if you want to call it CDGTOW, I’m in, even if I don’t understand what it stands for.

Dee