Why is it so hard to "pass"?

[phili]

I understand the idea about women [meaning females] not 'passing'- in the sense of achieving the 'fully woman', meaning 'fully feminine' idealization. There are huge pressures on females to try to conform as much as possible to artificial standards that then are used to define them as 'women', and most do not 'pass' on all counts. Shoulders too broad, hips to narrow, chin too square, hair here or there, etc. Mannerisms, speech habits, voice register and timbre, body language, stance, thousands of elements of presentation are taken into account, and knowing whether someone is female or male is so fundamental to our biological imperative that we are very skilled at knowing by adding up all the check boxes.

There are males colloquially known as 'traps' where so many check boxes match that it takes longer to know, and even when they are dolled up and overall sexiness swamps the other clues, I doubt the victim isn't willingly blinding themselves! There are few women, no matter how masculine, who are mistaken for men. how the plumbing looks- with the exception of intersex people.

IMO those among us who try to pass are definitely depending on passing glances, not any kind of in depth encounter. IMO 'passing' happens when people don't pay too much attention, or just generously and silently agree to the offer we make to be accepted as a 'lady for a day' as a woman in my sewing class put it.

It may seem strange to some, but MIADs like me are also asking to pass- to be accepted, as males, as eligible to enjoy something that is normally reserved for females. And anyone who will accept us will also be nice to those working harder at more elements of the picture.

[Rhonda Jean]

I almost answered, "If you have to ask...", but on reflection I'll cut you some slack.

When I was newly married at 20 I was 5'9" and 125 pounds with roller-set hair down to about bra strap length and very long nails.. I was frequently referred to as a girl in male mode. So, how hard could it be to pass? I thought I passed completely. Add to that, being newly married I had access to all these great clothes(with her permission). We were even the same shoe size.

No point in going into the whole story, but somebody made it clear that I did not pass. I could not see it and had no idea what gave me away. I wanted to find out. I started going into places (dressed) where I thought I'd be remembered. A doughnut shop, Dillard's, a convenience store... lots of places. Then I go back the next day in male mode and work into the conversation that I was there the day before dressed as a woman and ask if they read me and how.

Some told me they had no idea I wasn't a woman. Those that read me had reasons (tells) that ranged everywhere from my voice to the veins in my hands. One woman said it was because she could see my leopard print bra through my shirt. Some said, "I don't know! It was just something".

I thought I could overwhelm all those tells by going going to a more extreme version of what I thought was girly or feminine. My first purchase to that end on my meager income was an electric blue Spandex mini dress and stilettos to match. Along with more vivid makeup and bigger hair, as most on here realize, that was a step in the wrong direction. I didn't have to go back in to the stores and ask if I passed. I could tell I didn't. The experiments continued, and continued to confound me as to why I didn't pass. Daisy Dukes, crop tops, tube tops, bigger boobs... you see what direction this is going. The more extreme I was, the less I passed. It was a long time before I thought that just maybe I needed to tone it down.

The first nail salon opened not far from me and I had my first professional manicure. I had been trying to do my nails in as feminine a way possible since my mid teens. Having them professionally shaped and my cuticles done along with perfect polish made a huge difference in my hands. Maybe those veins weren't such a tell anymore. My hairdresser suggested she do my brows, which at that time meant tweezing. That seemingly insignificant detail feminized my face a lot, to the point it took some getting used to in male mode. I had my colors done by the girl at the Clinique counter. She told me not only what colors and how to do my makeup, but what colors of clothes and even what to look for in clothes that would help disguise broad shouders and narrow hips. My wife's clothes and makeup were pretty much the opposite of what I should be wearing.

I did not have the eye for such detail, and frankly some of my favorite and most exciting things to wear were the things I needed to avoid if I wanted to pass. Now 40 years later it doesn't require the asking others experiment to know if I pass. I know I don't. I still try to, but it's futile. I settle for looking good, or at least trying very hard to. Until a few years ago I'd allow myself a couple of times a year when I'd throw caution to the wind and wear something obscenely short and the highest heel I could possibly walk in, along with over-the-top makeup and gawdy jewelry and go out, even if it was for a few minutes, just for the pure fun and excitement of it. I can't even do that anymore without looking ridiculous and trashy, not to mention less passable. I don't worry about passing like I used to. I know it's futile. That's hard to admit!!! Yet, age catches up to our fem sides, too.

So, if you have to ask... you just need try it to find out. The thing that's just as hard as passing is being brutally honest with yourself about it.

[Pat]

But, ummm... Hormones & chromosomes??

Yeah, I hate it when I walk into a 7-11 and the clerk whips out the DNA scanner.

Just a thought: rather than agonize over not being able to "pass" for what you're not, why not BE what you are? I'm a transgender person -- I look exactly like one; I move/speak/sound exactly like one. I'm out every day interacting with a world that sometimes gets it and sometimes doesn't but I am ME the whole time. I always pass as a transgender person, the same way women always pass as women. You don't have to be a transgender person to ride this train -- whatever you are BE that thing.

[Krisi]

Take a look at Caitlyn Jenner all the money and surgeries she has had done she still has a male voice and gender markers that look male.
I can look at her and to me she doesn't pass.

I agree. Ray Charles could tell she was born male. And she has been the butt of many jokes.

Every now and then Maury Povich (a TV personality) has a show on "male or female". He has women and men dressed as women come on and the audience tries to guess if they are male or female. Many of the men actually pass but these are very rare individuals with professional makeup help just for the show. And we are still just seeing them for a few moments all glammed up.

At some point you just have to accept who and what you are and live with it.

[Kayliedaskope]

I'm very very new to this (just experimenting a little with underdressing). A consistent thread here is that it is very hard to pass as a woman.

Why?

It seems to me that with a wig, clothes, and makeup, you can look female. Is the hard part how you carry yourself, act, speak, etc? Or is there give-aways in the face even with makeup?

Anyone can 'look' female ... 'acting' and 'sounding' female is a whole lot harder. Passing? Maybe some of those luckier people who have hit the genetic lottery, yes. People like me who are linebacker size? Not so much. I've seen some pretty beautiful men and some pretty hideous women, so mileage may vary ...

As many have said, passing is almost impossible for many of us, no matter how we dress and make up. Blending in is an easier and more attainable goal.

[julia marie]

I'm one of those who focus more on blending than passing. In either case, I judge my success in passing/blending in terms of distance. In general I don't draw attention at 20 to 50 feet (except for a couple instances over the course of 5 years where people pointed or commented from across a parking lot). I think that at 10 feet people can tell there is "something different" about this woman. At 5 feet or less (like across a retail counter) there's no doubt that I'm a man in a skirt. I can live with that.
The "tells": eyebrows and the set of my eyes, bulky arms/shoulders, voice (definitely), hands, and any number of mannerisms that might seem out of place or unnatural.
Don't stress about passing. Just go out and feel good about yourself in your non-guy world.

[docrobbysherry]

Back to women that don't pass consistently. I believe any natal female can pass no matter how masculine her features. If they want to.
But, as Pat said, some don't care to. Because they know they r women. Or, they simply want to appear masculine.

I saw a woman in a Fedex store I was sure was trans from 20' away. So, I went up and asked her a question to start a conversation. As soon as she opened her mouth I knew she was a GG!

[Teresa]

Gretchen,
Sorry I don't get your statement that some GGs can't fully pass as female, the fact is they are female end of story obviously some are more attractive than others but they are genuinely female .

[Ressie]

I saw an older woman at a wedding a couple of years ago and wasn't sure for the longest time. She looked like a transgender M2F with a long skirt and tennis shoes. She talked to me after a couple of hours which is when I found I was mistaken. She was a genetic girl.

[Rayleen]

One thing that is the hardest thing to do, even if you are dressed properly, good makeup, wig or natural hair, posture and physics.
that one thing is : can you make the head movements of the female while she is conversing to you or someone, especially a genuine female, very tricky .

[Tamsin Secret]

Great thread.

Ok so here comes my thoughts from a complete novice with no real experience of passing!

I believe it's very much in the mind. Let's face it we are putting on a facade as we're not genetic.

If you wish to pull the wool over others eyes you usually just need to be super confident doing it and make others doubt the reason they maybe doubting you.

If I ever plan to 'pass' I will be going out with head high, smiling, interacting and having fun. Otherwise hey, why are we bothering if we are trying to 'pass'

Disclaimer: If it was that easy...... Indeed. Easier said than done I know but that's my take for what it's worth.

[MissPaula]

Stay away from those damn demon department store cosmetic counters!!!!!! lol....Being full time, I still get "read" now and then, but most of the time if I do, it comes in a complimentary fashion. e.g. "You look really good" or "I can hardly tell". My own observations are that a number of cd'ers dress a little too young for their age or wear the wrong clothing for their body type, and the lack of accessories. I attribute it to limited budgets. My advice: as long as you feel pretty, the hell with what others think. Go be who you feel you are!

[Ressie]

Good advice MissPaula.

can you make the head movements of the female while she is conversing to you or someone, especially a genuine female, very tricky .

I have know desire to go into details like that in an attempt to pass. Many women don't move their head in any particular way when talking anyway.

Also, I don't even try to walk like a female. I just try to walk less manly. I don't try to talk like a female either. I guess just being myself is more important than passing.

[Jaymees22]

My simple answer is I can usually tell if a person is a male or female a block or two away, can't you? Just go out and really look at people.

[IleneD]

Some of it is pure genetics, I'm convinced. And age..... youth always helps.
Some people like me are dual blessed; with a big powerful male body AND a sweet inner feminine core. I can paint and decorate all I wish. I will still be 6'3", 215 lb with big shoulders.

OTHERS are what I call "born for this". Technically these folks may possess male genital parts they are given a more feminine, androgynous and naturally soft look. I find them among the the most beautiful and fascinating human beings I observe. I often envy these "men" who really look like natural GG women because they are Naturals for this lifestyle (or full transition). It's almost a gift, though I'm sure that many an androgynous effeminate boy didn't feel so gifted or lucky having to grow up that way in a mean world.

[Lydianne]

Act like you know! . Not that I could .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l89TxxPGPdA

[Vickie_CDTV]

It isn't one or two things, or even a few, it is the totality of the presentation. I knew a GG who was completely bald (I believe she has alopecia), yet even from behind no one mistook her for anything other than a woman; she lacked hair on her head but had a distinctly female pear shape, a feminine voice, small hands, wasn't too tall etc. I knew a GG who had huge feet (wore a 12W)) and had big hands, but was not mistaken for a man because she wasn't too tall, had a curvy figure, had an average female voice etc. I have known women with rough voices, who were over 6' etc. and they are not mistaken for men, because almost everything else is within the average female range. The problem is, when you are born a genetic male, you usually have too many things outside the average female range, not just a few.

[ellbee]

Yeah, I hate it when I walk into a 7-11 and the clerk whips out the DNA scanner.

I'm confused now: Are you saying that chromosomes *don't* determine physical sex traits in humans??

And that primary hormones (especially of the life-long variety) *don't* have any effect on a human in terms of appearance??

Because basic biology says otherwise, for quite a while now.


The OP was asking why it's so difficult to pass. Both chromosomes & hormones play a HUGE role in all this. These are the basic fundamental foundations when it comes to sex development as fetuses, as kids, and as adults... You know, how people can kinda tell just by looking the differences between men & women, which is sorta important for sexual reproduction & continuation of the species, and all that jazz.


Of course, this is only *physically*... What others see with their eyes. We can be "read" simply by sight. The deck is stacked against us, right off the bat. (Though obviously sometimes, some of us can get "good enough" to mask/hide/enhance/minimize/etc., certain things.)

But this is only part of the battle. It is a game of inches, both figuratively & literally. And all those little things can add up to the bigger picture, perhaps pushing us just enough over the edge of that binary divide. Yes, sometimes some of us *can* sometimes "fool" some people at some levels/environments/situations, in person, when it comes to simple appearance. But depending on your parameters of passing, you then may have to throw in all this other stuff, like voice, movement, posture, etc., which is a whole new ball-game.

I'd love to go on, but I honestly don't have time to ramble about this.



Anyway, if someone wants to go down this road, for whatever reason? Then who cares! Let them! It's their life, their choice, their wants/needs, and they have their reasons.

Heck, I went through this, myself, in my 20's & 30's. And if someone at that time suggested that I don't try? I'd tell 'em to get stuffed, or something along those lines, LOL.

I will, however, say that it was pretty brutal, especially without the assistance of surgery or female hormones . It took a lot of time, money, effort, energy, practice, knowledge, etc. It did get almost stressful, after a while, which is actually one of the reasons why I believe I eventually quit the whole 100% en-femme thing. But part of it was, the internal challenge was there, and I wanted to see if it could be done -- and if *I* could do it. So, challenge was accepted.

And very glad I went down this path. Don't regret it at all, wouldn't trade it for the world. But would I want to go through all that again, at this time or at any time in the future? Heck, no!

[Krisi]

I've read a few comments claiming that some women don't pass. I think those people are confused about the meaning of the word "pass". Passing means looking like a woman. It would be a pretty rare woman who doesn't look like a woman. Looking like a woman doesn't mean wearing makeup and high heels. It doesn't mean wearing revealing clothes. A woman looks like a woman because she is a woman. And she "passes" as a woman. The exception would be a woman who is trying to look like a man. A FTM.

[rachael.davis]

So from instructing a martial art, and working with several women to modify a couple of key techniques -

Womens' shoulder blades are anchored closer to the spine, and slightly lower on the torso than mens' arms are - this is at least half of why a woman can carry a significant weight on her hip.
It rotates the arm towards the back - generally (please don't scream about I know a woman who....) this rotates a womans elbow so the point of the elbow is facing directly back. For about 90% of European ancestry women this also "kicks" the forearm out at an angle to the upper arm (part of what lets their hand clear their hip when standing or walking)
So it feels really funny to train to - but you can get used to pulling your shoulder blades down and in - slightly smaller shoulder width, more typical arm and hand position.

There are hundreds of "tells" that most people don't notice, but are still tells

[Tina_gm]

I am going to somewhat 2 part this. Yes, most of us if we try hard enough, can cover up our masculine features with make up, the right clothes, maybe body shaping and fake ta tas, wig if needed. In order to do so we end up standing out for doing so because we have to go to such extreme levels, save for a very lucky yet very very few who truly do have a woman's frame. And that is not just being thin either, although many on here think that with a thin enough frame that works, it still doesn't. Anyone remember the rock group Kiss... No one (back in the 70's) knew who they really were or what they really looked like under the face paint. But in order to do so they certainly stood out. In a way the same goes for us as well. Then of course when we get attention for our cover up, people will then take a closer look then what they might have done otherwise and then as others have stated the small tells, or not so small like basic height, and and foot size adams apple, facial features etc etc etc and can put it all together without a whole lot of effort, From a distance sure, one might pass, but on a shoulder to shoulder proximity.... Not saying that it can't ever or doesn't ever happen that some of us can't pass that, just that it rarely happens.

Now for part two- whether you hit the gene pool lottery or not, comes the who you are part. I know a person who is basically TS, but for medical reasons mostly doesn't live as a woman. They just are not able to transition, physically. This person has come quite damn close to hitting that gene pool lottery. Yet still, even though they are to the point of being truly petite, a close inspection still shows facial features. BUT- the true femininity of this person, and having been out as either a gay man and or transgender, their femininity has allowed them to be considered a woman by pretty much anyone who knows him/her. Regardless of how he/she is dressed. So in essence, he/she pass. It doesn't matter how he/she is dressed, the personality, their very being is that of a woman and that is what people generally think of this person. I am using the he/she because this person basically represents both. neither trying to be male or female, just being who this person is and is looked upon as a woman, which this person is fine with.

[Sandra]

Apart from the physical things, bone structure, size of hands, body shape etc as people have already mentioned, one thing I think a lot do is try to hard. You all want to look perfect and strut your stuff and go you go overboard.

Yes you do see some women dressed to the nines doing the weekly shop, but have you ever thought that she is dressed like that because she has come straight from work? Most women don't get all dolled up to do the grocery shop, I myself will even spot the woman all done up why, because it's not the norm when doing the weekly shop.

I know passing is a biggie for some but surely if you're comfy and happy then does it really matter.

Oh and to those who say GGs don't pass...well duh that's just jealousy, I'm a GG and I pass thank you very much

[Teresa]

Rachel,
I guess the obvious reason for your description is men have to be capable of throwing a weapon to kill a prey to feed the family a woman has to care for children , she can cradle a small child better with her body shape . That is a natural situation going back through time, OK there are exceptions on both sides some very athletic women and some very effeminate men .

I find turning the hands out when walking makes the walk different and adds a natural sway, once in heels that is possibly enough without overdoing the whole action . As Sandra comments without trying too hard .

[Kate Simmons]

It's a combination of a lot of elements that go into the look and the overall presentation. The real bottom line, I think, is that if we have convinced ourselves, we can be pretty convincing, especially if we don't worry so much and just have fun with it. Works for me!

[julia marie]

I suspect that I didn't pass today, but I still have a smile on my face. I was out for some shopping, and needed some calories, so I went to McDonalds drivethrough. After I paid I had a flashback to a few years ago when a McDonalds person giggled when she "made" me and told her coworker to take a look. So, today I sat in the car wondering if I was going to be humiliated. No, today the young woman handed me my change and added, "Let me take a moment to tell you that you look lovely today," with a big smile. I smiled back and said thank you.
That's not passing. It's acceptance. That's a huge difference. And, it's great.