The power in a pronoun.

[Lara A]

I see there are a few threads that mention pronouns and labels and I wanted to share a few thoughts that have been occupying my scatter-brain lately

I was out in Hamburger Mary's a few months ago dressed, and the waiter called me Ma'am without a qualm which I found very pleasant. I have been out into stores on many occasions and always had people call me Ma'am or even Miss on a couple of occasions, which has also felt nice and normal. I do enjoy when I present myself as a female, that people refer to me as such, and when I am a in male mode, that people refer to me as such too.

I just saw the acronym MIAD, and confess I had to look it up! That does not describe me I feel, altho there is truth in it if one wants to be pedantic. I am part male and part female and the label for each is as appropriate as my appearance. I am good with that. I am definitely not a 'them' and do not really understand anyone who wishes to be referred to as such. Surely our various parts are all part of our whole? That is a realization I had a while ago after some very intensive group therapy: that Lara was and always will be an integral part of ME. There is only one ME, with some interesting parts of that whole

I would be very interested to hear other takes on this.

[Samm]

Like you, in girl mode, I prefer to be referred to as how I present. It just makes sense.
I was at a social meet up at a hotel bar a few weeks ago. There were about 6 of us ladies. In conversation, a woman referred to us as "you people". She said it half jokingly. She then turned and asked if that offended me. Umm yeah it kind of does.... and not having anything to do with how I was presenting at the time. That's a label I could do without in either mode.

[JenniferMBlack]

Lara you seem to be more of a gender fluid individual like myself. Both genders exist but present separately. They them both genders exist and there seems to be a more androgynous presentation. I say this based on my limited experience with a few who use they / them pronouns. I plan on talking with one of them in the near future about it more as part of my ongoing self discovery, and may be able to shed additional light on it then. I don't plan to get into their personal space much so no need for concern there. They are a very smart and helpful person who is there with a desire to help those of us in need and I think talking with them about gender things will help me know who I am better. They work at the local LBGTQ center and facilitate our transgender groups and such. Just so everyone knows why this person.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I consider myself as bigender or gender fluid, which to me means that I'm happy in both modes, and we co-exist. When I'm presenting female, I still may turn my head to watch an attractive GG. When I'm presenting male, I still may make a comments to a GG about her clothes, her shoes, her jewelry or her makeup. So both male and female exist, at least in my mind at all times. However, I still don't use they/them pronouns, but he/him or she/her depending on how 'm presenting.

[Robertacd]

I am either him or her depending on how I am presenting. I am not much for the androgynous look or MIAD, although I will MIAD around the house, but I won't go out in public than way.

As for pronouns, I get ma'am all the time when dressed and when I am with my wife we usually are addressed as "you two ladies". I enjoy it but I don't fool myself into believing that I am passing %100.

I know people are just being nice, and honestly that's all I ask.

[Tracii G]

Really makes no difference to me so I don't get bent out of shape if I get called Sir.
Now I am not obviously a male as far as presentation so one would have to really look twice to see I was not female.
A MAID is obviously a man presenting as male but wearing a dress and I am not one of those.
I support MAIDS and they have every right to dress as they wish.

[Lara A]

Lara you seem to be more of a gender fluid individual like myself. Both genders exist but present separately. They them both genders exist and there seems to be a more androgynous presentation. I say this based on my limited experience with a few who use they / them pronouns. I plan on talking with one of them in the near future about it more as part of my ongoing self discovery, and may be able to shed additional light on it then. I don't plan to get into their personal space much so no need for concern there. They are a very smart and helpful person who is there with a desire to help those of us in need and I think talking with them about gender things will help me know who I am better. They work at the local LBGTQ center and facilitate our transgender groups and such. Just so everyone knows why this person.

Ah ok, that helps my understanding. I guess if you present in that androgynous way then either He or She might not sit well. Duh! I should have realized that! (My jet-lagged scatter-brain!) Is there another pronoun used in this case do you know? They/Them just seems counter intuitive to me somehow.

[JenniferMBlack]

Ah ok, that helps my understanding. I guess if you present in that androgynous way then either He or She might not sit well. Duh! I should have realized that! (My jet-lagged scatter-brain!) Is there another pronoun used in this case do you know? They/Them just seems counter intuitive to me somehow.

As far as I know there is Not another pronoun. I know what you mean about counter intuitive but that is their preferred pronouns. I don't fully under9it myself but that's no reason to not respect them and their choices so I go with it.

[Rhonda Jean]

I'll admit it I don't get the they/them thing.

When I've been sir-ed in fem mode I figure that's pretty much on me. There's only been once that I recall that I was sir-ed with emphasis. Other times it was, well... I looked like a sir (sometimes much to my own dismay). It's an inconsequential thing to me.

Getting maam-ed when I know damn well I don't pass? Now that's a big deal!!! My former Merle Norman lady always referred to me in the feminine even when I was in male mode. She was one of the few people who knew me as both. Even when I would stop by after work in full male mode, she'd greet me with, "Hey girl!" Made my heart skip a beat (and made me buy more). I had left the bag with my purchases on the counter while I stepped away to look at something and the next customer said, "Somebody left their bag." My MN lady said, "Oh, that's hers!" I was the only other one in the store, so there was no doubt she was referring to me. The customer did a double take. I loved it!

Most often I get "hun" or "sweetie".

[JenniferMBlack]

Rhonda dose it feel weird to you to be called she in male mode? The group I go to I have been around some of them as male me and it is always she her and Jennifer. I don't mind it as I understand they know me as such. However it feels a little weird to me.

[Eemz]

@lara yes that's about right... MIAD is literally "man in a dress" and typically they want to be called he/him all the time, because they are not presenting "female", they are literally a man in a dress. They might even have beards or bald heads - because they're men. In fact most of the ones I've seen on this site don't wear makeup and/or wigs, possibly they think that's too much of "woman" thing? But there's no hard and fast rules, like everything else in the LGBTQ+ umbrella, the individual defines the rules for themselves.

There are several MIADs active on this site and that's great. It wouldn't be my thing, but each to their own.

Pronouns in general - you'll see I've used "they" a lot in the first paragraph (actually I haven't used "he" or "she" at all in this post). That was deliberate to illustrate why some non-binary people use "they/them", because it's already an established way in standard English for telling a story about a person where their gender is not important. "I asked the bartender for another beer but they said I'm too drunk". The gender of the bartender is not relevant to the story, so "they".

[Teresa]

Lara,
As I understand it the " them " or " they " refers to the NB members .

I can't do the MIAD presentation , I will admit it's a very thin veneer we are talking about , in my case it's to hide the male part and bring out the female part .

I feel personally now the labels can be put back in their boxes , in the RW they don't serve a purpose , the only type of noun that's important to me is the proper noun Teresa .

Returning to the thread theme , so far I haven't been misgendered once in the last 18 months since going full time , I've had madam , lady , my dear , Luv but not a " Sir !"

[Asew]

At first I thought they/them were odd to use, but I find them growing on me. But I don't really care which pronoun as long as the person seems to be being nice

[Rhonda Jean]

Rhonda dose it feel weird to you to be called she in male mode? The group I go to I have been around some of them as male me and it is always she her and Jennifer. I don't mind it as I understand they know me as such. However it feels a little weird to me.

Nope. I've been mistaken for a woman in certain situations when I had long hair, but this particular incident was no mistake. It was quite intentional, and the fact that she knew I'd prefer that (in this setting) regardless of how I was dressed was very insightful. I say that in your group it's also appropriate. I bet most of them appreciate it. There aren't many people in my life that have actually seen me both ways.

[Lana Mae]

As a transgender woman, I prefer she/her/ma'am/etc. Although at work, I am still Harry until my name change on my licence! I do not use they/them for myself but respect those who do! Most times I do not hear a pronoun used! My favorite experience was being Ma'amed by a sales clerk at a gas station and then a young man held the door open for me! Hugs Lana Mae

[alwayshave]

When dressed, I prefer to be referred to with female pronouns. On the few cases where it hasn't happened I have been bummed.

[Jenny_Marie]

This is an interesting subject. I feel very much like a woman when I dress and that's how I would like to be treated if I'm interacting in public (which I don't do). However, the topic of pronouns is interesting as it's something that I've recently changed. I try to avoid gender specific pronouns because I don't want to assume how people identify. There is such a wide spectrum for gender identity that one can't assume that a person likes to referred to as "she" or "he". I mess up a lot. I like it that society is slowly getting away from defined gender roles.

[JenniferMBlack]

In our smaller group last night we were discussing this and how one would go about presenting as them. The poeple who is they them pronouns say it is difficult to get pieple to see you as a them, because other then the perfect androgynous presentation what dose gender neutrality look like? Our facilitator who is a them said this. "I feel like if you have a corn dog, you can put a tutu in it and make it look fem. Or you can put a tux on it and make it more masculine. But you still have a corn dog. I just want to be a damn corn dog." They don't feel poeple should be percieved for what they wear. And dosent want poeple assuming what is in their pants.
As I stated it makes it difficult without knowing a person to gender them as non specific based on visual cues. I guess the best course would be to assume non specific and go from there. This all reminds me of something my grandfather use to say. "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quakes like a duck it must be a duck." The problem is it is NOT always a duck.

[Amelie]

I only speak of myself. I don't care what people call me, their words mean nothing to me. I don't want discussions with anyone, just leave me alone and let me do my business, like shop or whatever. They can even call me derogatory names and I still don't care. As long as people don't get violent with me all is OK.


PS-Just don't call me Ralph. If Ralph is out there he knows why.

[Marianne S]

Lara, I certainly agree with what I think you're saying. But before commenting on this whole topic, I think it's well to remember what somebody (whose name I've regrettably forgotten) once observed. Namely, that

A person's sex is the first thing people notice... and the last thing they forget!

It's very true. I'm sure that trait is wetwired into our brains over thousands, maybe millions of years of evolution, in the same way that we automatically assess whether a stranger we encounter is likely to be a "friend" or a "threat," and categorize them accordingly. To start with, at any rate.

And if they're unable to categorize a person's sex, people are bothered by it. An appearance that's androgynous enough to cause real confusion results in cognitive dissonance. People scratch their heads until they've figured it out, one way or the other. That's the way people are, and we can't expect them to be otherwise than the way Nature programmed us.

While I'm at it, with so much talk about the complexities of "gender," it's important not to forget the simplicity of that plain English word "sex." The distinction is necessary and useful. "Sex" of course is anatomical and ultimately genetic. "Gender," or gender identity, more to the point, is psychological; it's inside our heads. Of course that's more complicated; it may or may not match our genetic sex, it may switch from one to the other, or be altogether uncertain. But people can't see inside our heads; they can't tell what "gender" (if any) we really are, so they can only judge by external appearances: by which sex we seem to be presenting as on any given occasion.

I absolutely agree with you that it's polite and respectful to address someone according to whatever sex they seem to be presenting as at the time. Even if they don't quite "pass," but are clearly trying their best to do so, the sex they're externally presenting obviously reflects their internal gender identity, or anyway the gender they wish to be at the time.

Conversely, if somebody presenting as female is "sir-ed with emphasis", as Rhonda Jean described, that sounds deliberately insulting.

However, there are obviously cases where people are genuinely uncertain which sex someone appears to be, or is presenting as--or their intention in doing so. Sometimes people may, out of politeness, deliberately try to avoid using gendered pronouns--possibly with clumsy results (like Samm's "you people"). At other times they may simply use the wrong pronound altogether. Considering the confusion people struggle with in trying to categorize a person, these slips deserve to be freely forgiven.

Personally I'm not sure I've ever seen an authentic "man in a dress" (it's "MIAD," not "MAID"!). But I suppose if I did see someone trying to look obviously male in spite of the dress, I'd call him "sir." The nearest I can come to that was a guy I once saw waiting at the gate in O'Hare airport. He was thirtyish, with a fine male body, wearing sparkling women's sandals, tight women's shorts, a tank top that showed off his muscular chest, some jewelry, and maybe some makeup? (that part, and the hair, I can't remember for sure). Perfectly androgynous! Was this a transsexual who'd prefer being addressed as "she"? I doubt it. I put him down in my mind as "gay," "flamboyant," and answering to "sir." But you never can tell.

On the other hand a colleague named Chuck turned up one night at a Halloween party wearing a dress, having just been out with friends at a restaurant. If I were a waiter, would I call him "sir" or "ma'am"? There we have a choice, because despite the dress, he obviously wasn't "trying" to pass--and having a prominent beard and a male hairstyle did not help! He was not (as far as I know!) a practicing MIAD in private, so I'm sure this was just a Halloween stunt. "Sir" should not be objectionable, though "ma'am" would still be better on the grounds of "going along with the joke," if nothing else.

Pronouns in general - you'll see I've used "they" a lot in the first paragraph (actually I haven't used "he" or "she" at all in this post). That was deliberate to illustrate why some non-binary people use "they/them", because it's already an established way in standard English for telling a story about a person where their gender is not important. "I asked the bartender for another beer but they said I'm too drunk". The gender of the bartender is not relevant to the story, so "they".

Two comments on this. First, a "bartender" is my mind is male. If it's a female, I'd call her a "barmaid"!

However, that's by the way. My main point is that while we do use "they" and "them" in that way, it's usually when the person's sex is unknown, not simply because it's "unimportant." So if I take a genuinely unisex term like "bank teller," we might hear from someone that the teller refused to cash a check, and in relating this to someone else we might refer to the teller as "they" because we never heard if it was a man or a woman. But if we did know, even though that fact was unimportant, we'd still normally refer to the teller as "he" or "she" as the case may be. That's unless we're deliberately trying to hide the sex of the teller, for whatever obscure reason.

In summary, I'm afraid "non-binary" people who want to be called "they" or "them" are just going to be SOL. People at large do "think binary," and they automatically categorize people by sex. For that matter I dare say most people, like Lara, don't want to be routinely addressed as "them" either. To deprive people of a gender identity, when most people do want one--or better still, two!--is to deprive them of a prized part of their personhood as a whole. It's one step toward reducing them to an "it." And the very purpose of "crossdressing" in the minds of most crossdressers is to assume a desired gender identity, however different from the one they were born with. Consequently people at large are going to go on addressing one another with gendered pronouns. Anyway they have no way of recognizing those few people who really want to be called "they" or "them," so how are they going to tell?

So my suggestion is to just pick a sex and go with it. If you don't like it, you can always change it tomorrow!

[Yash]

The pronoun I hate is uncle.
Still in my 20s
Hate it hate it hate it

[Marianne S]

The pronoun I hate is uncle.
Still in my 20s
Hate it hate it hate it

An "uncle" is supposed to be sixty-something, fat, and smoke a pipe, is that it?

[AllieSF]

Ah ok, that helps my understanding. I guess if you present in that androgynous way then either He or She might not sit well. Duh! I should have realized that! (My jet-lagged scatter-brain!) Is there another pronoun used in this case do you know? They/Them just seems counter intuitive to me somehow.

Another pronoun is "Xe", pronounced "zae", if I did that right. Like hay. I have trouble with them and am practicing using it when referring to a person who also has an organization behind them. Like a doctor's office. I actually prefer "Xe", but haven't found anyone who uses it. I do know some "they and them".

[Lara A]

Another pronoun is "Xe", pronounced "zae", if I did that right. Like hay. I have trouble with them and am practicing using it when referring to a person who also has an organization behind them. Like a doctor's office. I actually prefer "Xe", but haven't found anyone who uses it. I do know some "they and them".

I've not heard of this, but I think something that is a stand-alone word that does not imply or allude in another way is all good to describe this. A little like 'Muxe' in S Mexico...

[SometimesJen]

What a coincidence that this thread came up when it did. Two weeks ago I was out dressed in public for only my second time when a lady pulled me aside and asked how I wanted to be addressed - name and pronouns - which led to an hour long discussion. Only a week later, I was talking with a niece, when she came out to me as non-binary. Part of our chat turned to gender identity and pronouns.

Most people want to have an individual identity. Part of their identity is their physical appearance, while another is how they want to be described: their name, adjectives, gender, and pronouns. Like Roberta, I'll be a MIAD at home but won't leave home with an unclear presentation. When dressed, I'll answer to either male or female terms but I prefer one that matches my presentation - him/her, he/she, etc. On the other hand, my niece prefers they/them because she identifies as gender-fluid, being of both genders at the same time. Another person I know is GG but prefers to be called it because it identifies as non-gendered - neither male nor female. Although it tried using xe, xir, and xem briefly, the pronouns weren't very popular with our mutual friends and didn't stick.

As Marianne said, people are predisposed to identify someone by their sex - "[it's] the first thing people notice... and the last thing they forget!" If people don't know how to categorize someone, or are asked to refer to someone in ways they're not familiar with, it can be very challenging. Even the language we use, which is innately tied with our very thoughts, uses several gendered pronouns. I can't even think of an English singular personal pronoun besides "it" that isn't gendered.

While I understand my niece's reason for using they/them, I see those pronouns as plural, referring to more than one person, so it's going to take me a while (and a lot of conscious effort) to adjust to using them. I've known this other person as "it" for almost 10 years and still think of it and, in casual conversation refer to it, as "she". If I've known people for years who use pronouns that don't match their biological sex and still have trouble getting them right, I can't be upset about the general populace accidentally misgendering someone. (Intentional misgendering is an entirely different topic I don't want to go into). It's going to take quite a while for alternate gender identities, and their corresponding pronouns, to be fully accepted.