Double Standard (not exactly that one)

[Marla S]

To answer this first:

Tell me something, what kind of things do you wear?

Well, right know I am wearing a blue white striped girls top (T-shirt type), white panties, beige hose, dark blue girl's shorts and black gymnastic shoes (they are my slippers and I wear them instead of heels at home, for comfort ). Colorless nail polish: hands; White/silver nail polish feet. Not in the mood for jewelry today.
I will add some mascara only and minimum eye shadow, after I posted this, because I have to leave the closet to buy some food and have some coffee somewhere. I'd like to go the way I am dressed because I am "dressed down" like some prefer to say or for comfort like others would say, but I will "dress downer" and more "comfortable" to feel less "freaky" outside. There is not the slightest chance that I can hide my gender in this outfit (down or downer) due to my male body (high 183 cm, 82 kg, skirt size UK 12, tops UK 22-24, shoes UK 10, male baldness, hands like dishes). So I will cover the top with a boys jacket, shorts will be changed to girls jeans (actually not much of a difference to a man's jeans) shoes will be changed to unisex espandrilles. Hose will still be visible and I will feel brave as going for a bank robbery. I am awaiting stares (giggles if it is a bad day). Isn't this all wimpy for me and those who stare ?

Sometimes I like to wear skirts and would like to "doll up" for the theater or if I have invited friends for dinner. I am not into dresses on a day to day basis but sometimes I'd like to wear a classy or glamour one just for fun. Sometimes hose is changed to holdups ( stockings and garter belts are uncomfortable) to feel a bit more sexy or because it is to hot for hose. I'd like to wear heels, but as I don't want to torture my feet 2-4 inches is enough etc. I only have two pairs which I only wear the short time for styling experiments - who wears street shoes at home whole the day? I really like to wear bodysuits because they keep hose in place, panties don't become visible if you bow forward (fashion faux pas) and you don't get a cold on the hip. Sometimes I'd like classy lingerie for "special occasions" or if I feel "this is my day".
It's about time that I would need a wig. I fear the day. I know I would look more girly, and baldness doesn't contribute to a fem appearance, but I also know that I would feel masqueraded.
All in all I guess my clothing style is/would-be not to far away from a "regular" GG, - I might be terribel wrong here, you know better.
The only thing I wouldn't waer are bras, because I have no need for ... and slips of course, ' cause they are for grannies (though I did/tried both in my teens)

This isn't true, crossdressing is wearing the opposite sex's clothes, it has nothing to do with breastforms. Why would you think that because you don't wear breastforms, this doesn't make you a CD?

Well, you said this.

You don't get it do you, a FTM CD WOULD have their breast binded, would probably be wearing male clothes and trying to hide their true gender. Just because this woman is wearing non fem style clothing, does NOT make her a FTM CD. Did it not occur to you that she is at work all day, has to be on her feet all day and wants to be comfortable?

Translate this to my situation:

"You don't get it do you, a MTF CD WOULD wear their breast forms, would probably be wearing girls clothes and trying to hide their true gender. Just because this man is wearing non boy style clothing, does NOT make him a MTF CD. Did it not occur to you that he is in drab all day, has to be successfull and strong and wants to feel pretty?"

If the meaning of CD depends on the gender, I'd call this double standard.

You can see it the other way round.
I don't know if there is a comparable amount of FTMs like MTF - Probably not. But if so, most of them just would blend in due to the wider range of accapted clothing options for woman (there would be no need to dress "downer", like I have to). Some might even don't know that they would be labled CD if they would be MTF, because they are not under such pressure of the social conventions.
Would I have suffered hole my life for wanting to wear "girl's style" clothes like i did (and many others), would I have searched for a forum like this, would I have registered here ? Probably not, because there wouldn't be the need to to hide and the urge to find someone to talk to.
That doesn't mean that I am of the opionion that a part of woman that are "dressed for comfort" are CDs or should be labled CDs, but even if so; what are you afraid of ?
Isn't it an option that FTM CDs are made in parts by the gender standards of the society ? Even forced to do silly things like walking around in heels in their closet as long as they can, wearing hose and lingerie while sleeping, etc. (things no GG ever would do) to be able to feel feminine, pretty or sexy for a few hours. Doesn't this make them freaks in the societys eye and, more important, in their own ? Doesn't it force the need to pass to escape from the restrictions this way ?
This might be some weird thoughts of a stressed mind, but are things really like they seem to be ?
One may find some hints that there might be some truth in it in threads like "if CDing would be socialy accaptable". A few stated that they would get rid of their wigs and breast forms, which means to me that they are kind of forced to wear them by the society's standards.

For me I need self-accaptence (on a good way) and self-assuredness (some way to go).
What I do expect from the society is not accaptance, because I see nothing wrong with me (not anymore).
I'd liked to get rid of the label. You may like "man" in dress or not, you may find "man" in hose attractive or not, but that's just all. No need for labels, giggles, fear. (stares might be inevitable, but this is also the price of prettyness).


My warmest thanks to all that contributed, even if I didn't reply directly to your posts. Meant a lot to me and I learned a lot.

[Maria D]

The basic difference that ended up causing the current disparity is that 'non crossdressing' women crossdressed. Though technically crossdressers they weren't doing it because they liked the action itself, or identified with the other gender. They put, for example, trousers on, and said here 'I' am as before, but in trousers. Once those 'shape' clothes were made for women, they ceased to be crossdressers. If normal men decided to wear skirts, not as the CDs here do for pleasure or any drive to, or to identify as the other gender, but for ease of walking or comfort, and shops started selling skirts tailored for men, men wouldn't be crossdressing wearing skirts. It would, in fact, remove skirts from 'our type' of crossdressing, unless you wore girls skirts instead. It would, in fact, make it harder for you, as it is argubly harder for FTM CDs.
For the non-CD rest of society, it was never about the connotations of the clothes, it was simply about the clothes.

[Marla S]

Hm tough one. On first reading I totally agreed on the second I get my doubts.

The basic difference that ended up causing the current disparity is that 'non crossdressing' women crossdressed.

Agreed

Though technically crossdressers they weren't doing it because they liked the action itself, or identified with the other gender. They put, for example, trousers on, and said here 'I' am as before, but in trousers. Once those 'shape' clothes were made for women, they ceased to be crossdressers.

I doubt that "they ceased" once the clothes were tailord for them
(There a CD-shops tailoring dresses for man. Think about it ) You don't change your personality if a label is pulled of by the society. You may blend in and pressure is relieved and if your needs are covered, you wouldn't even know that you are different than the other childs, because soft-skills are less judgable as optical signals or flags. Why would you label yourself and expose yourself to social pressure if there is no need for ?
Dressing and outer appearence is always a compromise.

If normal men decided to wear skirts, not as the CDs here do for pleasure or any drive to, or to identify as the other gender, but for ease of walking or comfort, and shops started selling skirts tailored for men, men wouldn't be crossdressing wearing skirts. It would, in fact, remove skirts from 'our type' of crossdressing, unless you wore girls skirts instead.

No it wouldn't, but those actual CDs- or T-girls becoming ok to express themselfves with the offered opportunities would get rid of the label and pressure and most likely would dissapear from forums like this. Some feminine gestures or attitudes (less competitive etc.) wouldn't be worth mentioned, because they are to vague to be judged; in contrary it might even been wished by the society.

For the non-CD rest of society, it was never about the connotations of the clothes, it was simply about the clothes.

Clothes have always connotations, though they may change (and I agree that a GG in trousers is less likely a TG than me in a skirt )

That's why we want to wear them or not and that's how we are judged. Because lingerie, pentyhose/stockings, skirts and heels have a exclusive female connotation you get trouble with the society wearing them, you will find countless threads about these pieces of clothes on forums like this, and the vast majority of pics here will show them all combined, though you barely will see a GG wearing these style on the street.

Thesis: The number of poeple that label themself as TG increases with social pressure. Whereas the number of those who dare to make it open in some way might decrease.

But I agree that TGs remain TGs even if there would be no clothes, those are only the outer touchable and visible flag to support the personality.
Saying this, I still consider myself a TG (making clothing compromises), but as I said earlier I probably wouldn't have signed in to this forum if there would be less social pressure.

[Maria D]

'I doubt that "they ceased" once the clothes were tailord for them
(There a CD-shops tailoring dresses for man. Think about it )'

Well, yeah, at some point they did cease, that's exactly why they aren't crossdressing now. Further to that, that's another of my points, that men in men's dresses aren't crossdressing. It's perhaps complicated in that current 'men's dresses' are designed to fit men and emulate women, whereas the women's trousers were simply designed to fit women, as women.

'You don't change your personality if a label is pulled of by the society. You may blend in and pressure is relieved and if your needs are covered, you wouldn't even know that you are different than the other childs, because soft-skills are less judgable as optical signals or flags. Why would you label yourself and expose yourself to social pressure if there is no need for ?'

No, you don't change who you are, but society can change its view of you. Single mums were once a scandal, now they are common as muck and not sent off to have their babies taken from them.

'No it wouldn't, but those actual CDs- or T-girls becoming ok to express themselfves with the offered opportunities would get rid of the label and pressure and most likely would dissapear from forums like this.'

Yes, it really would. Men have worn 'skirts' in the past, some men wear kilts, and because they were and are men's garments they weren't crossdressing. And I'm not sure how many would disappear, the issue is being confused; this forum is about crossdressing, not the clothes, as per se. For instance, it is commonly held that women can wear what they'd like and still be women. But that's not what FTM CDs want, is it? There's a place for sites like this, because this site is more about support for people who CD because the clothes are of the opposite gender. (Except for anyone who is an exception of course).

'Clothes have always connotations, though they may change (and I agree that a GG in trousers is less likely a TG than me in a skirt )
That's why we want to wear them or not and that's how we are judged. Because lingerie, pentyhose/stockings, skirts and heels have a exclusive female connotation you get trouble with the society wearing them, you will find countless threads about these pieces of clothes on forums like this, and the vast majority of pics here will show them all combined, though you barely will see a GG wearing these style on the street.'

Yes they do, and if 'that's why you want to wear them' then fine, great with me. You are worried about how you are judged, and getting trouble from society, well, don't forget women did that and that's why they wear trousers now. You would only be following in older footsteps. They managed it. I don't know whether they complained or were worried about how they'd be judged though. Imagine stepping out in a society when you don't even have the vote, daring to wear a man's clothes. Do you think they had it easier, or harder than us, now?

'Thesis: The number of poeple that label themself as TG increases with social pressure. Whereas the number of those who dare to make it open in some way might decrease.'

No idea on that, but I do theorise that IF CDing runs as a percentage of total people, then since the total people has increased by billions in the last century, CDing probably increased too. I also suspect that the more open the society, the 'more' CDs since those hidden would finally be seen and counted.

'But I agree that TGs remain TGs even if there would be no clothes, those are only the outer touchable and visible flag to support the personality.
Saying this, I still consider myself a TG (making clothing compromises), but as I said earlier I probably wouldn't have signed in to this forum if there would be less social pressure.'

You are what you are

Take care

[jjjjohanne]

You don't get it do you, ... Did it not occur to you that she is at work all day, has to be on her feet all day and wants to be comfortable?

You totally don't understand how uncomfortable women's clothes are because you are a guy!

[Marla S]

Yes, it really would. Men have worn 'skirts' in the past, some men wear kilts, and because they were and are men's garments they weren't crossdressing. And I'm not sure how many would disappear, the issue is being confused; this forum is about crossdressing, not the clothes, as per se. For instance, it is commonly held that women can wear what they'd like and still be women. But that's not what FTM CDs want, is it? There's a place for sites like this, because this site is more about support for people who CD because the clothes are of the opposite gender. (Except for anyone who is an exception of course).

I am kind of tired. Obviously I can’t express myself and I don’t want to repeat it again and again.
Believe me I would have collected stamps and would had a happy life instead of 35 years of more or less shame, guilt, fear, embarrassment (finally depressions) if it would be “only the clothes” for me.


Just two things:

Compare the man’s skirts from the past to the female clothes from the same past and culture and tell me what you would have want to wear those days.
Comparing fashion of one gender some centuries ago with fashion of the other gender from today is not a very fruitful argument. It doesn’t matter who wore what in the past or in which culture. The situation of today and our culture matters. (Of course man can wear skirts, they are not soo stupid.)
It is these old and mistaken arguments that don’t bring us any further. Except us, nobody believes in them, because they are wrong.

It makes a difference in a patriarchy if you climb up the social ladder by occupying “first class attitudes” like independence, education, strength, power, own money etc.(usually ascribed to man) for which freeing of skirts and corsets might be a symbol, or if you willingly step down the social ladder to reach out for attitudes that are still seen as “second class attitudes”, the ones that are typically ascribed to woman, and to want the skirt and corset back.
In the latter case you are faced to two non understanding groups: Man, that might even fear to be carried along and woman that will find it hard to understand why someone would reach out for something they are happy to just got rid of.

Emancipation did not strengthen the feminine attitudes, but women gave themselves the chance to assimilate the “first class attitudes”

(I know I will be hanged upside down for this, but now it doesn’t matter anyway. I’d better asked which colour my next panties should have. )

[Marla S]

You totally don't understand how uncomfortable women's clothes are because you are a guy!

Funny

[Tamara Croft]

You totally don't understand how uncomfortable women's clothes are because you are a guy!

In the words of Queen Victoria - I am NOT amused :mad:

[renee99]

I think the intolerance of M2F stems from an assumption that anything men do that is out of the ordinary in terms of dress is done primarily for exhibitionistic sexual reasons. There is a fine line between exhibition and expression, and it is difficult for many people on the inside to understand the difference - much less a befuddled bystander - and especially one who may be concerned about what image the company is presenting its customers.

I think this is a sad consequence of those individuals who make it their goal to surprise and shock others. Some are doing it for genuine reasons (attempting to desensitize society through risking their own necks) and others are doing it for selfish reasons. In the end, I believe trying to shock society into acceptance in this way is futile at best and possibly severely counterproductive.

At least it offends me that a genuinely interested SO who is curious may be put off when the first things she pulls up in a search is an inappropriate online photo album of someone who identifies as a "crossdresser". But there isn't anything that can really be done about it. I just wish those people would think about the consequences of what they are doing. If they are getting off on the risk of being caught, they should consider the rest of us who are by and large mortified, to the same degree, of being rejected. Is it really worth a little short term pleasure to impede progress towards acceptance/indifference? I wish they would consider the feelings of the M2F who would be fired from his job for wearing what is objectively appropriate and comfortable, and realize they are contributing to that injustice by perpetuating a stereotype.

[Ipexx2]

If a woman is wearing anything made for man. Like or not she cding.

[Marla S]

At least it offends me that a genuinely interested SO who is curious may be put off when the first things she pulls up in a search is an inappropriate online photo album of someone who identifies as a "crossdresser". But there isn't anything that can really be done about it. I just wish those people would think about the consequences of what they are doing. If they are getting off on the risk of being caught, they should consider the rest of us who are by and large mortified, to the same degree, of being rejected. Is it really worth a little short term pleasure to impede progress towards acceptance/indifference? I wish they would consider the feelings of the M2F who would be fired from his job for wearing what is objectively appropriate and comfortable, and realize they are contributing to that injustice by perpetuating a stereotype.

Very good point. I totaly agree !!!

Thanks for your reply

[Josi]

This is so simple

for arguments sake lets say the salesperson IS a Ftm cder.
So what!

She does not transgress our society's "norms".

It doesnt matter if we like it or not ... just accept that a woman may dress as she pleases including wearing male clothes if she wants. No one really cares .. hell - it can even be very feminine to wear male clothes lol!
and .. yes its "not fair" but live with it ... society feels uncomfortable when a man dresses in womens clothes.

Such is life .. lets just accept it, stop moaning and get on with just being ourselves as and when we can .. if we can!

Life isnt "fair" ... life happens and we must make what we can of it!!

[janedoe311]

Bull dike look: male clothes, short hair, no make up, no jewelry, they can be binded or not. Some lesbians and FTM, do not like their breasts so they bind even if they are not trying to pass as men.

She would not be seen as a crossdresser because she is not trying to pass as a man. She would not be fired.

Man in dress or skirt: no makeup, no forms, no wig, maybe even facial hair. Not trying to pass as a woman. That is crossdressing.

But he would be fired.

See double standard. There is no logical explanation for this. It is they way most people see it. Cross-dressing for a man is wearing female clothes for a woman it is trying to pass as a man, fake beard, breasts bound etc.

The chances are both would be fired if trying to pass as the opposite gender so no double standard there.

If a woman wore male pants and a man wore a skirt, the man would be fired.

Women can wear men’s clothes but men cannot wear woman’s clothes, that is the double standard!

[janedoe311]

If a woman is wearing anything made for man. Like or not she cding.

But my wife wearing my old shirt or pants is not crossdressing, at least she and most people do not think so.

But if I wore her old skirt it would be crossdressing.

There seems to be a different definition between when a male CD's and when a female CD's in this society.

Even I would not see her as crossdressing when she wears my shirt! So I am messed up also!

[Marla S]

Such is life .. lets just accept it, stop moaning and get on with just being ourselves as and when we can .. if we can!

NO, NO and NO my dear.
I accapted it for to long.
What did I get ? A life full of miserable feelings (you know it probably from your own life).
I accuesed myself for to long now for being sick, but the only thing that is sick is that I was made to. Period.
I don't accept the biases anymore, though I have to tolerate them, because I can't change a system. The question is not why I am the way I am, but why I get mocked for it. And the better I know it, the easier I can deal with it.
For me it is time to stop being submissive.
Maybe you are already there, but I've just arrived.

[Ipexx2]

But my wife wearing my old shirt or pants is not crossdressing, at least she and most people do not think so.

But if I wore her old skirt it would be crossdressing.

There seems to be a different definition between when a male CD's and when a female CD's in this society.

Even I would not see her as crossdressing when she wears my shirt! So I am messed up also!

Theres is no differents. It just seems that most people would like to close there eyes then to face facts. O well . Facts are facts, white is white, black is black and crossdressing is cd.

[Josi]

Marla ..
Its not about being "submissive" .
I am not "submissive" .. I go out and be dammed with what the world thinks. I get on with life and realise that this world is imperfect. BUT when I go out I am realistic and behave in a way as to minimise problems and comfrontation.

I cant see the point in the repeated nature of wringing hands and sayiing again and again "its not fair ,, women can wear men's clothes and we cant wear womens clothes" .. its the perenial whinge of the CDer
"Its not fair" ..
My point is ... lets stop moaning and get on with living!

[Marla S]

Josi

It's not that I wouldn't know that the world is not fair and not only what CDing concerns, and I am well aware that I can't change it.
And I don't want to moan, though I admit it sounds like this.

And yes, I try to be reaslistic too, and my intention is the same as yours. I like to minimize problems and confrontation. But on the other side I like to maximize my freedom and live a "regular" life. (So I might have to put up with some problems.) To achieve this I need to know the root and background of the biases causing problems and their real nature as good as possible or if they are just based on nothing.
I. e. a rejection just hurts more if I think the other might be right or has good arguments (seemingly) and I have nothing to reply (I think some of the usual arguments to reply a realy odd). You become submissive automatically if you don't know about the nature of the problems. Didn't we all suffer a great lot because we didn't know what to tell ? Wouldn't it have been more easy if we knew how to face the unfairness from a self-confident point of view?
But we spend a bunch of time about the question why we are the way we are, theirby opening to doors for the biases to infiltrate ourselve. I call this submissive, because if you want to leave the closet the question "Why me" is irrelevant. The only relevant question is how to deal with the biases. And I think this would be a more offensive approach to gain self-accaptence.

In the end it might be necessary to sneek back in the closet, but than I like to know why, to keep or better gain my inner peace. Hope you get the point.