The plight of the SO

[kittypw GG]

IMO a lot of the blame should go to generally poor relationship skills and communication.

Along the lines of communication there is also the spouse, CD or GG that will not open up to the other one. And interestingly it seems that the one that is trying to get the other open up and talk / communicate is fairly open minded and trying to communicatea, as in the case of the GG or in the case of the CD being open and not pushing the GG.

I agree Kimberly, especially with the two comments I have picked out of your post.

Poor relationship skills are usually at the bottom of most of the striff. Poor communication covers the rest I think.

Sometimes my hubby accuses me of being un-accepting. On some levels this is sort of true. I really don't understand what crossdressing is to him we never have a decent conversation about it. I have told him that for some weird reason I am ok with the crossdressing being a fetish/ fantasy thing linked with sex. I don't feel comfortable with the idea that he might want to be a women. I don't want to live with a man who wants to be a women or even dress like one everyday. He leads me to believe that this is kind of what it is for him but then he says the other day that we don't have to always have sex when he dresses, we could just hang out. Ok so now I'm confused again. I have very little interest in "hanging out" with my husband like two girlfriends because we aren't two girls. Because I feel this way it puts me in the catagory of unaccepting. Controlling my husbands desires. Well isn't he controlling me if he forces me to do something I am not comfortable with? Let me tell you I have swallowed my feelings plenty to accomodate his cd desires. I did it so that his feelings would not be hurt. Many wives of cd do this but don't get credit for it because we don't make a big deal about it, we do it for love. I don't think that most cd's really give or would be capable of giving what they are asking for in terms of acceptance.

Why can't their be satisfacton with what I am willing to give? I think that I am plenty accepting but being accepting doesn't mean that I have to adopt every aspect of something that I am definately not afflicted with nor do I understand. Maybe things could change for me if we could actually have a conversation about it without getting emotional and dramatic, (I hate dramma). The reason that we can't really talk about it leads me to believe that he doesn't know what it is to him either. This causes a lot of angst between us. I don't think my opinon will change so I would like to know who and what he is so that I can make an informed decision as to wether or not I can live the life he wants to live. But I don't know what that is to tell your the truth so I live with this weight hanging over my head, waiting for the bomb to fall. The bomb being that he wants to live like a girl or alter his body in a permanate way. This is not a very comfortable way to live. Nor does it make you want to really induldge the cd desires because you don't really know what it is you are supporting or showing acceptance for.

Great post Raverbabe, the feelings of the SO are so often not heard or put down but are just as valid as the CD. A little empathy for the SO would go a long way, we are not inside the cd's head and need some assurances as to what we are dealing with and it is not fair to accuse one of being unaccepting when most of the time the so doesn't even know what they are accpeting because poor communication. Kitty

[TxKimberly]

I'll jump on the "I agree" wagon. I've said almost exactly the same thing myself here before. It takes most of us a life time to accept ourselves - it's unrealistic to expect a wife to just suddenly arrive at this same point. Also, as you stated, the very fact that you are posting here says loads. It says you care enough to be interested, you cared enough to try and learn, you cared enough to stick around long enough to do both of these things. What more can anyone possibly ask?
My hat (or wig - lol) goes off to ALL of the SO's here - ALL of you have made an effort and I hope your spouse appreciates what a huge thing this is.

Oh, as usual, Karen Hutton took the words outta my mouth with her post - that is exactly the way I feel and think about it.

[Raychel]

I have to commend you on your post, I agree 100% with everything you said.

[Sheri 4242]

It takes most of us a life time to accept ourselves - it's unrealistic to expect a wife to just suddenly arrive at this same point.{Emphasis added.}

Kimberly,

I agree with your entire post!!! It shows intelligence and the all-too-rare ability (not for you, but definitely for a few) to utilize critical and analytical thinking skills so as to be able to put yourself in another's place and glean an understanding of their side of the proverbial coin!!! Well said, gf!!!

Poor relationship skills are usually at the bottom of most of the striff. Poor communication covers the rest I think.

Sometimes my hubby accuses me of being un-accepting. On some levels this is sort of true. I really don't understand what crossdressing is to him we never have a decent conversation about it. I have told him that for some weird reason I am ok with the crossdressing being a fetish/ fantasy thing linked with sex. I don't feel comfortable with the idea that he might want to be a women. I don't want to live with a man who wants to be a women or even dress like one everyday. He leads me to believe that this is kind of what it is for him but then he says the other day that we don't have to always have sex when he dresses, we could just hang out . . . I have very little interest in "hanging out" with my husband like two girlfriends because we aren't two girls. Because I feel this way it puts me in the catagory of unaccepting. Controlling my husbands desires. Well isn't he controlling me if he forces me to do something I am not comfortable with? Let me tell you I have swallowed my feelings plenty to accomodate his cd desires. I did it so that his feelings would not be hurt. Many wives of cd do this but don't get credit for it because we don't make a big deal about it, we do it for love. I don't think that most cd's really give or would be capable of giving what they are asking for in terms of acceptance.

IMHO, you are an exceptionally accepting GG SO!!! There is (a.) no tolerance, (b.) tolerance, (c.) acceptance, and (d.) encouragement. On any given day, from what I have read you say on here, you always give -- probably more than you get back in return as far as empathetic understanding for your needs. Most GG SO's that I am familiar with that would fall into (c.) and/or (d.) have needs, too -- and it is the wise CDer who can put his own life history aside, and at times outright selfishness, and meet his wife's needs, too!!! There have been far too many SO's that, all-in-all, are willing to move beyond (b.), save the fact that, giving an inch, their CDer is trying to take the proverbial mile - or more!!!

Every relationship takes work -- even the best of relationships have to move into that area after the "fairy tale" bubble of romance deflates. I know my wife isn't looking for me to be her girl friend -- her best friend, yes, but a gf, no. I also know that she needs "her man" at times -- and I try to pick up on those signals although I sometimes miss them. How much better would many a GG SO's relationship be with a CDer if the CDer was more atune to -- and understanding of -- those times when you want and/or need your guy?!!!?

As to comfort levels, let's be honest, many CDers, once their spouse or gf gets to (b.) charge forward like a bull in a china shop (my garndmother is comng out in me today with all these adages and proverbial sayings -- lol -- sorry)!!! Of course you're right when you mention communication!!! You say one thing, we hear something different -- there have been some very scholarly studies done on this phenomena (and I don't mean John Gray!)!!!

When my wife and I first discussed a renewal of our vows in Las Vegas, with me as the bride, she knew it was a dream of mine that she was trying to accommodate out of love. When we got within 24 hours of it, I knew something was wrong -- so I opened up a line of dialogue. She wasn't ready -- even though it was originally her idea. So, we waited!!! When it finally did happen, it was beautiful for boh of us, as I have described on here before. I am by no means perfect, but that's one time I listened and saw past her words into her heart -- and responded to her needs! The dividends I got in the long run were tremendous!!!

No, my wife isn't my gf -- she's my best friend -- and I try and treat her that way, which makes my CDing a two-way street doesn't it?!!! IMHO, that's the way it ought to be!!!!

[Ema1234 GG]

First of all sorry about my absence from the forums after I posted something like this. I've been away for the weekend and haven't had the opportunity to get online on this forum.

Secondly, I'd like to say thank you to everyone who's posted on here. I couldn't have hoped for a better response to the thread and I really appreciate the well thought out responses that have been given by so many of you.

I'd have to say that I've definately acheived everything I could have hoped for with this thread and that was to make people take a little step back and think about the SO's. In no way am I try to say we are never at fault, but at the same time we don't deserve the amount of blame we get occasionally on this forum.

The responses to this have really made me smile. Thanks everyone.

[mellisa's wife]

[QUOTE=Tree GG;934746]
Those who post that they should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, where ever they want, with whom they want are absolutely right. That is their privilege as an adult in a somewhat free society. However, there is a price to be paid for that freedom and many times it is paid for with lack of successful, long-term intimate relationships (either romantic or friendly). It can't always be about the one in any relationship. At some point, you have to put yourself (your needs, your wants) 2nd so the other can be #1 for awhile. And vice versa.

Once again I agree 100% with Tree. Even "accepting and supportive" spouses often fee like a third wheel in the marriages....sometimes feeling that there is always time for the femme side but not always for the attention that the spouse seeks out.

There needs to be give and take.... not blame pointing.

Just

[Country girl]

[SIZE=4]I have to agree with most of the posts I've read on this thread. Well written thought provoking comments.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4] I commend Raverbabe on her excellent post. She has definately gotten a lot of people to do a lot of thinking which was her intention in the first place. Great job on your post and great job on some really well thought out answers! Shows that you gurls are really trying to see things from a different perspective! CG GG[/SIZE]

[Sheri 4242]

I'd have to say that I've definately acheived everything I could have hoped for with this thread . . .

Raverbabe: your thread has been most interesting and vital!! You may have acheived all you could hope for, but I bet it will continue to generate replies.

Most of the responses you have received have seemed very heartfelt -- excellent "food for thought." The only thing that bothers me is the small minority that just don't seem to "get it," although they seem to think that they have the only true answers -- and that if you happen to disagree you must be less than honest. Such behavior is a snapshot of what is most likely either going through their minds, or what is actually happening (or has already happened) in their own relationships with their respective spouses. As has been said in several different ways, there has to be give and take, and open, honest communication. For the majority, IMO that is the the clear line of thought that your thread is generating. Selfishness is the root of so many problems!!! One who claims to always be right and/or who calls others liars b/c they have good relationships are the epitome of such an attitude -- and such only leads to relational defeat.

[QUOTE=mellisa's wife GG;938809]

Those who post that they should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, where ever they want, with whom they want are absolutely right. That is their privilege as an adult . . . (h)owever, there is a price to be paid for that freedom and many times it is paid for with lack of successful, long-term intimate relationships (either romantic or friendly).

Mellisa's wife GG is right on target: things can't always be about one in a relationship to the exclusion of the other partner. This is how the "other partner's" love bank gets dangerously depleted!!! IMHO, part of true love is knowing when to put yor own wants and/or needs aside and put the other's in first place!!! Oh -- wait a minute . . . that's the same as being the exact opposite of selfishness!!! I tried to exemplify this in my first post (a few above this post).

[Mitch23]

Same issue as you Lesley - I can wear my man-panties any time I like - slinky and sexy - and even in our love making. But wear almost identical woman-panties - a definite no-no. Where's the sense in that I ask myself - the only difference is the label!

Mitch

[Christine1826]

My SO only recently found out about my Crossdressing. She said she was angry, and felt that her femmeninity was threatened. I have never dressed in her presence, or anyone else's for that matter. I dont ask her to participate in any way. My dressing is for my own personal pleasure, I have been doing this for more than 35 years. I dont steal family time, or couple time. Why is it such a big deal? She imagines things that aren't happening, affairs, homosexual acts, etc. I just need the release form stress that this outlet gives me. Any thoughts from yo GG's would be appreciated

[Ema1234 GG]

I have been doing this for more than 35 years.

That there is your very answer. You have had 35 years to come to terms with your CDing and understand exactly what it means to you. And you expect her to understand and accept in a much shorter space of time?

She probably doesn't understand much about CDing apart from the stereotypes. That is that you want to become and woman full time and you're gay. That's certainly what I thought before I looked into it full time.

She needs time and space to understand and learn to accept. And if that means you answering hundreds of what you deem to be "stupid" questions from her then sometimes that's the way it has to be if you want her to understand. You might think there is no need to ask a particular question, but you already know the answer, she doesn't.

Like has been said in this thread, try and put yourself in her position. Imagine that you are just an average guy, you have no interest in CDing. Then imagine you're wife tells you she likes to dress as a guy and is a FTM CDer. Think how you'd react/feel and the questions you'd ask. I doubt you'd be able to accept immediately.

[Fab Karen]

The reason that we can't really talk about it leads me to believe that he doesn't know what it is to him either. This causes a lot of angst between us. I don't think my opinon will change so I would like to know who and what he is so that I can make an informed decision as to whether or not I can live the life he wants to live. But I don't know what that is to tell your the truth so I live with this weight hanging over my head, waiting for the bomb to fall. The bomb being that he wants to live like a girl or alter his body in a permanent way. This is not a very comfortable way to live. Nor does it make you want to really indulge the cd desires because you don't really know what it is you are supporting or showing acceptance for.

Kitty

It's obvious he needs some therapy to figure it out, if he doesn't know. Until then you don't know if this is just a fear in your mind or you're aware of something he hasn't admitted to himself yet.

You stated the progression of things about cooking cleaning, pants and so on..well they have changed. But one thing to remember is that generaly folks brought up before, lets just say Gen X (born 1980-2000) fall into the more "old fashioned" social roles. Whereas my generation, Generation X, has been brought up VERY differently (some ridiculous stuff but I wont go into that here) and seems to have a better "acceptance" rate of anything outside "normalcy"

Nic

I was brought up well before Gen X. I remember how things were, and also how they were already beginning to change. It was the people of courage & integrity paving the way before your generation that made such things commonly accepted by the time you were growing up.
Your concept of generally is based on limited experience of how people in modern society are living. It might be somewhat true in your own backyard ( even then you may be assuming ), but overall things are quite different these days from your generalizing assumption.

[Dana]

Crossdressing aside ~ most martial problems are the same problems that most people have without crossdressing being a problem. Communication, understanding of self, understanding of others, common goals, intellecutall capability and understanding ~ to just name a few.

You want your wife to understand your needs? Understand and meet hers! Phyiscally, mentally, emotionally! Fullfill them to such an extent to where she knows that you're being a crossdresser ~ she knows she's not going to find another man that can nor will meet her emotional, mental, physical needs as a woman, as a person, as a human beings. The way to get to "forever after" is one day at a time. Make her your primary focus in life ~ the rest will take care of itself! Forget work, forget climbing up the food chain, forget becoming a CEO or a VP, forget the BS~

You make her the number one priortiy in your life 99% of each day ~ she won't give a damn if you wear sack cloth! You put her wants and needs before your own? Women just want to be wanted, needed, desired, appreciated ~ same things most CD's want!

Same thing as most Humans want!

[bgirl]

We must read different posts. I don,t see all the blame games going on. I don't see why anybody has to blame anybody else for their difficulties.
Are you perhaps refering to those persons whos marriage didn,t survive the fearful event called 'coming out'? I have empathy for all the pain suffered on both sides.
On the surface we all seem to be happy go lucky and threads about the fun stuff are more likely to be answered than threads about how much trouble we are having.
A couple times when I just needed someone to tell me everything would be ok, I got slamed by someone for feeling sorry for myself. They were seeing the anger, I was seeing the blues.

You are seeing the blame, I am seeing seeing the phoenix rising.

[shellycd]

In many ways, I think raverbabe bought up some good points.
I would like to share some of my situation and experience here. When my wife and I was engaged, I decided to tell her about me. She was not too happy about this. I tried and tried. But not much beyond accepting me wearing panties or some lingerie during sex plus a lot of arguments. At the end, I decided that it would be OK for me to have her not 100% accept my CD'ing. We have some discussions about this and have the compromise agreed. I would not try to force her to accept and will only do full CD when she is not around.
It had been 10 years now and it is so far OK. Every so often, she will asked me if I want to be a women and I would always say "NO". I said I want to be with her. Every so often, she would complain that I bought some new cloths and shoes because she haven't. I try to keep it to the miminum. Sometimes she complained about me wearing panties and sometimes she wants me to wear panties. It is became a part of our lives and part of our compromise and understanding between each other. It is OK for your SO not to be 100% acceptance.

[GACountrygal]

Your concept of generally is based on limited experience of how people in modern society are living.

[erin_elizabeth71]

well i am brand new on here but your thread was moving so i had to respond. i have a SO and i love her more than anything in this world. so much so that i stopped dressing and "purged" my closet of all but one or two things i have kept hidden away. she knew from day one that i was a CD in fact i was at one point going to go all the way to TS but at 6'6" tall i realized the looks i got as a CD would never really stop even after the many surgeries and also i had a very dear friend call me by my male name one day while i was 6 months into transition living full time as a woman and just starting HRT her exact words were "Eric I NEED you in my life and i don't know what i would do without you in it." i stopped HRT that day as i realized there was more at stake than my own personal needs and wants and desires. (now before the TG's and TS's start in on me I mean no disrespect to anyone this was the decision I MADE FOR ME not one that i think anyone should make for themselves this is just my story) but i made the choice that in this body form or any other i was still the same soul with the same feelings but to the rest of the world Eric would have gone and ERin would have come to life and there were stil those who needed eric so i decided being a CD would have to be enough.

well then i met my SO later and told her everything she said she was ok with it but then when things got really serious she said she couldn't deal that if we wanted to be together i had to let that be in the past and it had to stay there. well having read your post i have a better understanding of her point of view and i can only hope that oneday if and when she finds out that i still do dress only in complete private and by myself that she will be as understanding as i have tried to be for her. just as it is not something she is capable of dealing with quickly giving it up is not something i am capable of dealing with either so i can only hope that in the future we will not be under the stresses we are now and that we can find a way to deal with it together and that i won't lose her.

i know it seems kind of crappy to keep it hidden but at this time i don't see that i have a choice. i can only wish that at some point i can find some CD friends here in the twin cities area that i could go hang out with and dress up with so i didn't feel so alone and didn't feel so paranoind everytime i heard a noise in the house lol anyway i guess what i'm saying is as much as i see things from my own perspective i can feel your pain. here's wishing you the very best in life and a HUGE thank you for being open and honest and helping me understand her side of it cause here we just don't talk about it any more.

[LaFem]

Lordy Lordy! This is such an honest thread I can't even fault it!
Hey, Riverbabe, keep posting! You bring out the best in us men who dress and act like women. You are quite perceptive and open. Keep the discussion going, we need it.

[susan2067]

raverbabe

What a thoughtful post, and you are right to make the points that you do.

I think the great majority of Crossdressers are deeply concerned about the hurt they may do, or have done, to their SOs.

CDs and SOs probably have more in common than they realize. Being a CD is not usually something that we chose to be, in the same way that SOs haven't asked for this to be part of their lives either. And I can't really explain to my wife the why, and she doesn't understand either. People say that men's and women's brains are wired differently - maybe a CD's brain is wired different from both.

I can only speak from my own situation; I came out a few months ago. My SO recognizes that CDing happens, that I'm a CD and that in a way it's no big deal. BUT I feel certain that she would really prefer it if I didn't dress.

My SO and I are taking everything a step at a time. After all I've lived with this inside my head for all my life, but she has just had things turned upside down. I could never expect for her to accept everything unconditionally, but I do want to live the whole me and my hope is that with God's grace we will work things through together.

Thank you - and all SOs - for your commitment to us, and for trying to understand us.

Susan

[l8nitejenn]

I don't blame my SO at all, and she has been very supportive (after years of counselling). I went into my marriage of 14 years completely honest with her about my dressing, which I am sure for one reason or other many have not been able to. I cannot blame her for being frightened or worried, the real blame and source of my scorn is society in general, if not for the prejudice and violence against us, many more closets would be empty....it is this fear, guilt and hate which troubles my wife. We have come a long way, but I fear there is still a long way to go.

just my 2 cents worth,

jenn

[Satrana]

Lets remember folks that divorce rates are hitting 50%. Bad relationships abound and people in general are becoming more selfish putting their needs ahead of their partners. It is hardly surprising then that there will be lots of threads here where SOs get blamed.

Even if crossdressing was not such a big taboo, there would still be plenty of sob stories here. But since cding is a big taboo, this often brings out uncomfortable, irrational prejudices that can irritate the CDer and lead to blame pointing.

Its a lose-lose situation for both parties and needs to be satisfactorily addressed or else it will eat away at the relationship until there is nothing left to hold it together.

[Ema1234 GG]

Lets remember folks that divorce rates are hitting 50%. Bad relationships abound and people in general are becoming more selfish putting their needs ahead of their partners. It is hardly surprising then that there will be lots of threads here where SOs get blamed.

Even if crossdressing was not such a big taboo, there would still be plenty of sob stories here. But since cding is a big taboo, this often brings out uncomfortable, irrational prejudices that can irritate the CDer and lead to blame pointing.

So are you trying to say that it's ok the blame the SO's for everything? I don't really get what point you are trying to make here.

[Carin's Wife GG]

in every relationship there are compromises. CDing is just one of them. I am sure all of you know that before *the stroke* I was gung ho on the TG stuff. Afterwards not so much. My brain literally had to do a relearning of all of this stuff (and other things too). It was very difficult for Carin, talk about confusion. I needed time. I needed compromises that I didn't need before. For some reason my stroke allowed me to speak my truth (even though talking was very difficult) and some of that truth at that time was hard to hear and listen. I came to understand that *I* cannot drive the force of CDing and I cannot convince myself that all that is TG is just fabulous.

Carin and I have had many discussions and therapy sesssions about this. We have the not so great habit of taking care of the other sometimes at the sacrifice of ourselves. As Carin puts it, it gets us into a real knot. We both want the other to be happy and fulfilled but how to do that while holding onto your own true self?

We have come to the realization that we have to communicate and very honestly. Even when the truth is hard for the other to hear. Truth for us at least is of vital importance. We like to think of each of us as holding up a strong table, all four legs being independant and at the same time needing one another.

The grandness of the TGing is coming back. Carin is a wonderful person that I am privileged to share my life with.

Thats the longest post I have done in forever!


Louise.

[Kimberley]

I have seen this statement of the CD has had all these years to come to terms with it. I beg to differ. A lot of CD's, TG's and TS's havent come to terms with their gender identities, and most never will. I think it is an unfair assessment.

The CD that opens up to an SO is looking for support first and foremost. S/he is relying on the love of a relationship to help get over a hurdle that they KNOW has to be jumped and they cant do it alone. A lot of SO's fail to see this. Certainly some CD's will take advantage of the situation but most are saying "I need your help in dealing with this." Unfortunately the SO shuts down and quite understandably. They feel deceived and rightly so. They question sexuality and rightly so. The problem is still there and that solution is empathy.

If you cant put yourself in your partner's position there is a serious failing of communication first and foremost.

This leads to the second wave; education. Every GG on this forum is trying to learn and understand. That is why so many admire you. The problem is most SO's do not try; mine is no exception and she is a counsellor.

The cycle the CD is trying to break is of Guilt Shame and Fear. Again, they cannot do it alone and need support. It is up to the SO to decide if s/he is willing to give that. It is a tough, no, miserable choice to make but that choice can and often will determine the future direction of the relationship.

No it is not all on the SO but the SO has to be a partner in the relationship and as such, make a decision; go or stay. The question that needs to be answered is "What are the consequences of failure whether it is of support or withdrawl of support?"

This may not seem to be the response most would expect but I have always maintained that a relationship goes two ways and there has to be a balance. Finding it is a joint effort that requires both the CD and the SO to compromise. That takes communication and understanding and more than anything; love. Miss one and you miss all.


Kimberley

[Carin's Wife GG]

the communication has to go both ways. What can be difficult are the emotions getting in the way thus creating a difficulty in that much used word communication.


Louise.