Crossdressing gender distinctions

[Stephanie Scott]

Why are there so many more MtF crossdressers than FtM??? I mean, there seems to be a HUGE difference in the numbers (and the motivations).

Before you answer my question by pointing out that women get to "crossdress all the time with societal approval" (which is a favorite argument or justification of MtF CDers when trying to point out the hypocrisy of societal standards), consider this:

1. The average MtF CDer (of which I assume I am one if one can classify an "average CDer") wants to dress up like a woman not because it is more convenient or comfortable or practical to do so but because we want to experience what it is like to really BE a woman -- or as close as we can get --for a period of time. We try to "pass" or "blend in" as any other GG would do. We want long pretty hair, smooth bodies and faces, sweet-smelling skin, etc etc.

2. The average GG who "crossdresses" does so mostly for convenience or comfort or for practicality. They don't try to "pass as men," lower their voices, paste on facial hair or grow bodily hair, wear men's cologne, cut their hair, "stuff" their shorts, etc. That doesn't mean that such women don't exist, of course, as I am sure there are a number somewhere on this forum, but as a general rule, when we "accuse" GGs of CDing "just like we do," it isn't really true. The goals and motivations are entirely different. My wife will sometimes wear my boxers or my college football jersey or my t-shirts or sweats or something, but she isn't trying to pass as male. Quite the opposite occurs really -- her femininity is even more evident in the course of wearing these clothes. (What red-blooded heterosexual man is not turned on by his wife's femininity when she is wearing nothing but one of her husband's button down dress shirts? It's almost like the contrast of wearing men's clothing ENHANCES a woman's femininity. Heck, there is a whole fashion theory behind types of women's clothing designed to look like men's clothing. This is obviously not true (usually) with MtF CDers.

The statistics on TGism (as I have seen them historically), seem to indicate that TGism is MUCH more prevalent among men than it is among women. I'm just curious about why, and what theories you either have yourself or have heard about from other sources as to the answer to this question.

[Sarasometimes]

I think part of the difference with cders (males and females) is that for males we sort of need to present ourselves to look like women in order to not look very strange. If a cd male simply puts on a very frilly blouse but otherwise presents as a male he will likely experience significant ridicule. If he takes it to the point where he is dressed as a women and made up as well he may just be thought of as a CD and left pretty much alone.
Men are strongly encourage to appear tough to avoid confrontation. mixing feme and macho is a mixed signal where a female is accepted or even prompted to present that way. Please feel free to embelish or disagree.

[Stephanie Scott]

Sara,

That is an excellent point, and I agree to an extent, but it still seems like there is a big difference in our motivations. We generally relish the opportunity to present fully as female -- I mean, it's not like we are dragged kicking and screaming into full femme mode "just so" we don't experience ridicule. Obviously, dressing fully for most of us still doesn't mask our true masculine physical identities, so it's not like the full dressing eliminates ridicule from the equation.

I'm just wondering what it is about being men that seems to more easily trigger TGism?

[MissConstrued]

To me, it's a bit simpler than that. Guy stuff is utilitarian; girl stuff is soft & pretty. Pretty is exciting, utilitarian is not. I think that completely explains the disparity.

[Kelli Michelle]

Number one, I think it's hard to pinpoint the number of FTM crossdressers. Lot's of those are also lesbian, so tend to get put under that description, rather than FTM crossdressers. My GG friend, wears "guy" everything, including underwear, and has a guy haircut as she associates with her masculine side. She considers herself lesbian not a crossdresser. I say she is both. I believe there is a negative connotation in the general public (even in the lesbian community) about crossdressers (see Jerry Springer, and other harmful shows and movies), so many females that are so inclined don't admit to such. So there is a problem with getting the proper numbers for FTM.

Other than that I think the reason comes down to motivations and repression. MTF cders are way more repressed, generally (imho) than FTM cders. They are not usually told to show all sides, even feminine ones. I think, that, therefore, if you have a fairly even Masuline/feminine personality, that this (repression) will cause it come out sometime, eventually. Plus I expect there are lots more other reasons why males tend to do it than females. Some of the other reasons I see are fetishism, escapism, tsism, and feeling that's the way you are. I am sure there is material on the internet about this, but this is just my layman's (laywoman's) take on it.

[jruiz]

Number one, I think it's hard to pinpoint the number of FTM crossdressers. Lot's of those are also lesbian, so tend to get put under that description, rather than FTM crossdressers. My GG friend, wears "guy" everything, including underwear, and has a guy haircut as she associates with her masculine side. She considers herself lesbian not a crossdresser. I say she is both. I believe there is a negative connotation in the general public (even in the lesbian community) about crossdressers (see Jerry Springer, and other harmful shows and movies), so many females that are so inclined don't admit to such. So there is a problem with getting the proper numbers for FTM.

Other than that I think the reason comes down to motivations and repression. MTF cders are way more repressed, generally (imho) than FTM cders. They are not usually told to show all sides, even feminine ones. I think, that, therefore, if you have a fairly even Masuline/feminine personality, that this (repression) will cause it come out sometime, eventually. Plus I expect there are lots more other reasons why males tend to do it than females. Some of the other reasons I see are fetishism, escapism, tsism, and feeling that's the way you are. I am sure there is material on the internet about this, but this is just my layman's (laywoman's) take on it.

There are some crossdressers that are also gay. But assuming that all crossdressers are gay is wrong. The same with the FTM CDs.

You just know one lesbian that happens to crossdress. It's not possible to generalize based on this experience.

[RachelTVG]

Woman are allowed much more flexibility than men. That doesn't apply to just clothing choices, either. Women can be pretty and feminine or a cut throat business type. They don't turn heads when they take on traditionally male jobs, roles or even clothing. It wasn't until the 1920's the Supreme Court ruled that women could wear trousers in public. Look at how much they've gained.

Men, on the other hand, are offered much less leeway. Society dictates what men can and can't do, say or wear. Men doing anything typically associated with women is subject to ridicule and scorn. Remember I mentioned the women business leaders earlier - do you think a man who chose to be a stay at home dad, run a clothing alteration store or any other traditionally female job would receive as much support and praise from people?

[Tina B.]

Well I am no doctor, I don't even play one on TV, but some think it's a hormonal thing that happens during pregnancy, and it only happens to the male child. if that is true, then most FTM's would most likely have a much different reason than we do. And the difference in reasons, might just be the reason for the difference in the numbers.
If you look on the net I am sure you can find someone that can explain it much better than I could.
Tina

[unwritten2108]

The average MtF CDer (of which I assume I am one if one can classify an "average CDer") wants to dress up like a woman not because it is more convenient or comfortable or practical to do so but because we want to experience what it is like to really BE a woman -- or as close as we can get --for a period of time. We try to "pass" or "blend in" as any other GG would do. We want long pretty hair, smooth bodies and faces, sweet-smelling skin, etc etc.

And that's the problem in some sorts. What the average MtF CDer does/thinks/believes etc is what is perceived by society. And I think it's safe to say that many of us aren't the "average CD." Which also could be one reason why MtF CDs are subject to redicule at times.

I mean all the time we see GGs walking around who look very man-ish or butch, but yet we don't really question it (besides the whole lesbian argument). But when we see a guy wearing womens clothes we think he's a CD and therefore thinks he wants to be a woman.

Here's some food for thought though: Do we possibly associate specific articles clothes to what the person "should" look like in them? I mean people who walk around in T-shirts and jeans aren't really wearing make-up or heels. But when we see people wearing fancy dresses, blouses, skirts, etc we normally see their face all made up, hair done, and wearing nice shoes.

[linnea]

I think that you have made a very good point. I also think that it is harder to get real numbers that reflect the FtM frequency.
Why should it be any more difficult than getting the MtF frequency? I think that it has to do with definitions and self-image. My own feeling about it is that it still comes down to societal acceptance. This is still a largely male-dominated society (at least on the surface). It makes sense to many males that women would want to be like them; it makes no sense to many males that a man would want to be like a woman. Note all the jokes--still being told and laughed at--about men who behave in a womanly fashion. How about all the snide comments that still occur in school-yards and work areas about "crying like a little girl," "throwing like a girl," etc.
There is plenty of cultural evidence to support the idea that women are incomplete and men are complete.
And despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, many men and not so few women believe this idea.
Thus, when a man wants to be a woman or be like women in dress, physique, etc., it appears that he is taking something away from his wholeness. When a woman wants to dress like or to be like or to become a man, she is doing something that makes some socio-cultural sense--at least, that is so to many people whether they consciously acknowledge it or not.

[jruiz]

I think that just wearing opposite sex clothes does not make a crossdresser.

Do you remember the "The Office" chapter, where Michael Scott buys a women suit without noticing?

He did not mean to dress as a woman. He didn't enjoy it particularly. Well, he was not even aware... This is not crossdressing to me.

In my opinion, If a woman wears women's pants, it's not crossdressing. If a woman wears men's pants, but these pants make their femenine body look nice, it's not crossdressing. If a woman wears masculine working gear because her job demands it, it's not crossdressing.

It's the same with guys: if I wear women's jeans, but they still look masculine, it's not crossdressing. If you are a guy that is required to wear a pink silk rope for your job, you are not crossdressing.

Again, it's just my opinion, but for being called a crossdresser you are supposed to enjoy it, and to mean it.

[Sherry-Stephanie]

I think those females who really want to come across as males do so in all aspects of their own self including be attracted to females only....case in point we had a friend who's daughter was a teen ager and was gay...she was all masculine from head to toe....didn't have anyhting female for dress wore mens boxers a sports bra and had her hair cut short in a male's haircut...but she was very much out about what she was....would she qualify as a F2M??? Yup but just as much as a transgender person as well...she use to say she was a male trapped inside a female body....I had more feminity in my pinky than she had in her whole body....not saying every female is like her, but usually those F2M's tend to go the whole way ....thus they don't put themselves into the CDing pigeon hole....

[Teri Jean]

I would like this conversation melded into one answer as the scope of this is so complex no one answer is tried and true. Now can I get back into my mini and blouse? Hahaha. I think we are all right and there is a difference on how people M&F cders. It would be nice if there wasn't and remember we all want to present ourselves in our why and if that means I wear a skirt or dress, fine and if the gal at work wants to dress more maculine let her. We are not doing anything illegal. JMO. Huggs Keli

[Butterfly Bill]

I guess I am not "average" in that I do wear women's garments basically for convenience and mostly comfort, and make no effort to present myself as anything but male.

[sissystephanie]

I think part of the difference with cders (males and females) is that for males we sort of need to present ourselves to look like women in order to not look very strange. If a cd male simply puts on a very frilly blouse but otherwise presents as a male he will likely experience significant ridicule. If he takes it to the point where he is dressed as a women and made up as well he may just be thought of as a CD and left pretty much alone.
Men are strongly encourage to appear tough to avoid confrontation. mixing feme and macho is a mixed signal where a female is accepted or even prompted to present that way. Please feel free to embelish or disagree.

That idea probably applies to most men, but boy do I break that mold! At least since my wife passed away 4 years ago.She always did my makeup and fixed my wig before I went out in public as Stephanie. I was, and still am, very lousy with both things.

As a result, since her passing, I just go out dressed but without any makeup or wig. I routinely wear skirts, and frilly tops too, when out in public. So I am a guy dressed like a female! Rarely, if ever, do I experience ridicule! Maybe it is because my atitude is that I belong in those clothes! As far as I am concerned, I do! It is nobodys business what I wear except my own.

I do think that one reason there seems to be more MTF CD's than FTM CD's is that we, the MTF, are much more vocal! Just read the Forum!!

[Ruth]

One of the things about CDing that I find hard to understand is the idea of the opposite of MtF CDing. This is what we're talking about here I think.
There's an assumption that M and F are equal and opposite poles so if it works one way, it's going to work the other way just as well.
Yet you are saying there are far fewer FtM CDers. I would tend to agree. Perhaps it doesn't actually work both ways. We're all agreed CDing is not a simple thing, and perhaps the existence of CDing depends a lot on the relative psycho-social positioning of the two gender roles. I suggest that GGs have far less to gain in psychological terms from the act of CDing to the male role, and this is why it is more unusual for them to do so.
I wish I could be more specific about this, because I have a sort of gut feeling about it but I can't seem to put it into words.
Anyone else have a feeling about this?

[Annie D]

My wife is also a coach/p.e. teacher who wears athletic wear and jeans most of the time. Most of the time is an understatement as she probably owns less than 1/2 dozen skirts or dress suits. Her hair is cut quite short and before some of her teaching collegues thought that she was gay before they found out that she was married and had kids. No women in the teaching profession is accused of being a crossdresser when she wears jeans on "jeans Friday".

If you shop at the mall on the week end and want to blend in with the other women who might be there, I'll bet that you wear a pair of jeans and sneakers and a casual top, even a t-shirt. The accepted casual dress for women is to wear male type clothing. It is a shame that the number of places that we can truly wear feminine wear is limited to when the sun goes down and restaurants and theaters.

I don't consider my wife a crossdresser because she wears the same type of clothes that I wear as a male and she is just wearing the accepted female casual wear.

[Kelli Michelle]

There are some crossdressers that are also gay. But assuming that all crossdressers are gay is wrong. The same with the FTM CDs.

You just know one lesbian that happens to crossdress. It's not possible to generalize based on this experience.

Spare me, that was used as an example of one I know, not all FTM crossdressers, sheesh. You know, examples? Clearly not all cders are gay or lesbian. I guess I assumed everyone knew that. By the way, I have seen hundreds of lesbians that also dress the way I described. Again, no scientific analysis, just observation. Are you disputing my generalization that lots of FTM crossdressers are lesbian? If so on what basis? Anyway, it's just an opinion, relax.

BTW, I pretty much agree with your opinion re. what constitutes crossdressing, at least as it applies to us. However, in a strictly technical sense, it does mean dressing in the opposite sex's clothes. A crossdresser though would have intent. Just opining....

[Lorileah]

I have to disagree with some of the original post. I for one don't want the whole female experience, I would be a TS then. We try to "pass" because if we don't try and pass we get derided or beat up. I offer the question, if it was allowed for guys to wear skirts tomorrow, how many of the "girls" here would start wearing skirts or dresses in public? Quite a few I would venture. The ones who would scream the loudest are the fetishists who either want the thrill or want something to rail about that society does not understand poor little me.

"2. The average GG who "crossdresses" does so mostly for convenience or comfort or for practicality. ..."

Tell that to the "Annie Hall" women. Ties are neither comfortable nor practical. Are double breasted coats more comfortable than a nice woman's coat? See this argument is weak. I would bet there are many CD's here who would love to use the argument that skirts are more comfortable. I would be one of those. Recently because of circumstance I wear a skirt to sleep in, very comfortable and when I have to get out of bed in a hurry, I am not naked. I hate confining clothes in bed.

"The statistics on TGism (as I have seen them historically), seem to indicate that TGism is MUCH more prevalent among men than it is among women". Again I disagree. Crossdressing females were more common in the 19th century, often blending into society as men. I am sure that there were male CD's in the old west but they didn't come out often (get a rope).

If you lump crossdressers into a category where the female CD's have to wear fake beards (why is that? Not all guys have beards) and a phallus, then yes there are fewer female cd's but then you would have to put the males in the category of always wearing forms (many of us don't on a routine basis) and make-up. I think the main problem here is that we are looking for an answer to "why does it have to be wrong or right" and we won't ever get that. We are a bell curve.

[Carin]

The general public uses labels to categorize. While we reject labels amongst ourselves because there are so many flavors, we still use them to to categorize others. It this case I refer to us as M2F transgendered because that is the topic of this thread, but I acknowledge that there are plenty of f2m transgendered on this site.

Male bodied people are categorized as heterosexual, gay (leather or lace or ...) or transgendered. That is about it. Female bodied people are categorized as heterosexual, tomboy, lesbian (butch or femme or ...), or transsexual.

In the evolution and recognition of women's rights, we do not challenge (nor should we) those women who have or desire a more masculine expression. A heterosexual female with a masculine expression is classified as tomboy-ish, not transgendered. Men don't have a particular problem with that, all the better if she is interested in cars and sports. They make good partners. We are conditioned to recognize that there is not much a man can do that a woman can not do.

A heterosexual male with a feminine expression is classified as transgendered, crossdresser etc. There is no Janie-girl classification. The closest term used is "sissy" used in a derogatory way. There is no recent historical movement that asserts a mans rights to feminine expression. On the contrary, the 'Old-Boys-Club', the still predominantly male dominated society, the heterosexual male raised with homophobia is either threatened by feminine guys or considers them traitors. 'Real men don't cry!'... or carry purses. Sad to say, but generically it is our own (male) doing.

Of course there is a lot more to it than this. I offer this as just one piece of the puzzle. From a societal perspective, it's apples and oranges.

I can't quote the reference, but I recall a statement that the numbers of M2F SRS surgeries and F2M SRS surgeries in Thailand (the mecca of SRS) are roughly similar.

[rickie121x]

I think of the many movies and TV shows where the woman goes into "his" closet and returns wearing only one of his shirts - Wow, cool! And somehow, oh so sexual! But if he were to do the same with one of her pieces of clothing - say a blouse... that would be a really disappointing scene - just sort of ridiculous, actually.

I think it has a great deal to do with the beauty and social flexibility of the female body and persona - different things just seem to "fit" on females and not so well on males. Of course, the word "fit" has to do with our contemporary culture, mores, and all, but it's an easy generalization - just as the female with male's clothing seems to be an easy "fit".

The original question was, "Why are there so many more MtF crossdressers than FtM???" Because we crossdressers are so obvious in comparison! There are thousands of times more females in typical men's clothing styles! We simply don't even notice them any more. And then they jazz it up with a just a few pieces of jewelry and a touch of lipstick and there they are - instant women!

[Carly D.]

Actually if a woman is doing the same cross dressing to present as a man then they are trying to look and sound like a man just the same as we are trying to look and sound like women..

[Stephanie Scott]

I have to disagree with some of the original post. I for one don't want the whole female experience, I would be a TS then. We try to "pass" because if we don't try and pass we get derided or beat up. I offer the question, if it was allowed for guys to wear skirts tomorrow, how many of the "girls" here would start wearing skirts or dresses in public? Quite a few I would venture. The ones who would scream the loudest are the fetishists who either want the thrill or want something to rail about that society does not understand poor little me.

"2. The average GG who "crossdresses" does so mostly for convenience or comfort or for practicality. ..."

Tell that to the "Annie Hall" women. Ties are neither comfortable nor practical. Are double breasted coats more comfortable than a nice woman's coat? See this argument is weak. I would bet there are many CD's here who would love to use the argument that skirts are more comfortable. I would be one of those. Recently because of circumstance I wear a skirt to sleep in, very comfortable and when I have to get out of bed in a hurry, I am not naked. I hate confining clothes in bed.

"The statistics on TGism (as I have seen them historically), seem to indicate that TGism is MUCH more prevalent among men than it is among women". Again I disagree. Crossdressing females were more common in the 19th century, often blending into society as men. I am sure that there were male CD's in the old west but they didn't come out often (get a rope).

If you lump crossdressers into a category where the female CD's have to wear fake beards (why is that? Not all guys have beards) and a phallus, then yes there are fewer female cd's but then you would have to put the males in the category of always wearing forms (many of us don't on a routine basis) and make-up. I think the main problem here is that we are looking for an answer to "why does it have to be wrong or right" and we won't ever get that. We are a bell curve.

Well, geez, c'mon. First, I said I was generalizing (or words to that effect). Of course there are exceptions and gradations within the "average," etc etc. Second, I didn't say most CDers want the "whole" female experience, I said we want to temporarily experience something as closely akin to being a woman that we can get. We want to "pass" because we want to be acknowledged, recognized, and treated as a female temporarily.

While I acknowledge the tremendous comfort of skirts, I would venture to say that the accompanying high heels, waist cinchers, bras, etc etc do not qualify as being physically comfortable, even though they might be psychologically comfortable for us. The "skirt comfort" argument is a straw man.

Suits and ties stink and are not comfortable, but most men, when not at work, are wearing jeans, t-shirts, sweats, etc. Women did not used to be "permitted" to wear these things, but now they can, so they choose them for comfort's sake.

I think the fundamental point here is that most women who frequently wear what has historically been termed as "male" clothing" do so NOT because they have issues of Transgenderism and the desire of identifying at least temporarily w/the opposite sex. They wear them for comfort or fashion purposes w/in the context of their femininity. Most MtF CDers on the other hand, are trying to "step out of" our masculinity to enter the realm of femininity. And I still say (this forum is proof, I would think, as MtF seem to greatly outnumber FtM), that there are WAY more of us than there are of them. Exceptions mean nothing, as scientifically speaking, one cannot disprove a rule by exrapolating from the specific to make a general rule.

And really, I was just wondering why that is.

[docrobbysherry]

To me, it's a bit simpler than that. Guy stuff is utilitarian; girl stuff is soft & pretty. Pretty is exciting, utilitarian is not. I think that completely explains the disparity.

I dislike looking like a man-in-a-dress! That is NOT stimulating for me!:doh:

I don't think I'm alone in this! If you're NOT TS, u may feel the same way about your dressing.

Even if I COULD throw on just a blouse and skirt, for a trip to the market, I wouldn't! As MissC said, that's just "fem" utilitarian, and that's NOT what CDing is about for me!:brolleyes:

[Nicki B]

Why are there so many more MtF crossdressers than FtM??? I mean, there seems to be a HUGE difference in the numbers (and the motivations).

Look at this site - you'll find that, for those here who identify as TS, the numbers are not dissimilar?

Why should it be different for those whose dysphoria is not as strong? There is the concept of the 'tomboy', which has been around as long as trans people.. But sometimes, they do seem to grow out of it, whereas MTFs, who, in most societies, don't get the same opportunities while young, seem to grow into it?

Maybe the FTMs just don't feel a need to join 'support' sites like this?

[Tizabet]

It's interesting coming here and seeing the different perspective that pure CDers seem to have, when I'm so used to primarily TS dominated communities. On a personal note, while I agree that MtFs are more prevalent on the internet (or at least make themselves more visible), in real life, I only seem to come across FtMs. But either way, it's hard to know real numbers, especially when (at least in the full on TS category) the most successful may never tell anyone about their situation. So all you can really ask is "Why do I see so many more MtFs than FtMs?" And maybe it's just a matter of difficulty. Testosterone is strong, and hiding its effects is quite a feat. Perhaps I'm biased, but I'd guess it's just harder for us MtFs, so we're more prone to seek out each others' help.

EDIT~
Maybe the FTMs just don't feel a need to join 'support' sites like this?
Ack. You beat me to it while I was typing. :P

[rickie121x]

.... hiding its effects is quite a feat. Perhaps I'm biased, but I'd guess it's just harder for us MtFs, so we're more prone to seek out each others' help.
EDIT~

Exactly - GG's simply don't need any-one's help, succor, assistance, friendship or guidance to dress in unisex or male clothing - there are no restrictions, no negative social mores, no one to say no - or even suggest it.

[Fionax]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned their parent's influence. At a rough guess most of us were brought up in a family where there was probably a father and almost all of us had a mother. The mother's pride in her son is the stuff of legend; he could do no wrong and represented to the world the man that she alone had produced. He would be expected to lead the family should there be no father around, whereas a daughter was there to share the trials and tribulations of being a woman.

The father on the other hand was delighted at a daughter who was a 'tomboy'; it was assumed that a boy would naturaly acheive success in sports but for a daughter to do so was a matter of intense pride. The consequence was that society has no problem with a girl dressing to suit her athleticism, indeed the vogue for tee shirts and trainers is almost universal from China to Argentina. Girls follow fashion men don't. So the FtM can be absorbed into society seamlessly and invisibly whereas those of the opposite persuasion have difficulty in trying to to look feminine when actually their dream appearance no longer exists.

[Satrana]

1. The average MtF CDer (of which I assume I am one if one can classify an "average CDer") wants to dress up like a woman not because it is more convenient or comfortable or practical to do so but because we want to experience what it is like to really BE a woman Quite untrue. First of all large numbers of CDs do find women's clothes to be convenient and comfortable - it is a false argument to say otherwise just to justify differences in crossdressing. More importantly those CDs who emulate usually focus on a highly idealized, usually sexualised image of a woman which hardly reflects what it is like to BE a woman. What CDs are doing is consuming femininity to enjoy its benefits because we want to. Now some CDs believe they have to act out the role of a woman in order to consume/express femininity. Not true but I understand why this linkage occurs.


The average GG who "crossdresses" does so mostly for convenience or comfort or for practicality. Actually they dress to follow culture and fashion trends which emphasis that "real" women discard the idealized femininity that many CDs crave except for special occasions where it is still expected.

I came across a support website a while ago established by GGs who want to wear dress and skirts everyday but feel they cant because of social oppression to femininity. They stated other women look down on them as traitors to the cause because they liked femininity. They group together and do activities like trekking in the countryside to specifically challenge the lame excuse that women have stopped wearing dresses and skirts because they are impractical or uncomfortable.



but as a general rule, when we "accuse" GGs of CDing "just like we do," it isn't really true. The goals and motivations are entirely different. There are many motivations which drive MTF crossdressing. But no matter what the motivation is, when a man wears an article of female clothing he is labeled a crossdresser. But you argue that if a woman has another motivation that this excuses her from being a CD? You a supporting a double standard. Crossdressing describes a behavior, not a motivation. If you wear clothing associated with the opposite gender you are crossdressing.



My wife will sometimes wear my boxers or my college football jersey or my t-shirts or sweats or something, but she isn't trying to pass as male. I am not passing as a female when I wear a nightie to bed. Ask my wife.


her femininity is even more evident in the course of wearing these clothes. Interesting idea. Does not work for me though. But by your logic my masculinity is enhanced when I wear a nightie to bed. Think you might have a losing argument there.


The statistics on TGism (as I have seen them historically), seem to indicate that TGism is MUCH more prevalent among men than it is among women. You are joking of course. Have you seen the statistics on tomboyish behavior in women?

[Senban]

Lorileah said - "I offer the question, if it was allowed for guys to wear skirts tomorrow, how many of the "girls" here would start wearing skirts or dresses in public? Quite a few I would venture. The ones who would scream the loudest are the fetishists who either want the thrill or want something to rail about that society does not understand poor little me."

Oddly enough, it already *is* allowed for guys to wear skirts and dresses and so forth in public. Is there anywhere in the world where it's strictly forbidden or illegal? Well I'm sure there may be a couple of examples of some form of official restriction but for many of us, there are no restrictions on wearing whatever the hell we damn well feel like, right? The only restrictions are those we place upon ourselves though fear and insecurity. We're scared of peer ridicule so we decide not to express our feminine side publicly for example. But the general truth is that most people either don't notice or don't care and will quickly allow you to fade into the background of their perceptions (there will always be exceptions of course). Of course those closer to you will have to deal with things rather than allowing you to fade into the background and that's not always easy of course and a whole different subject that's covered many times elsewhere.

RachelTVG said - "Society dictates what men can and can't do, say or wear"

I used to believe this too and while it does have some validity, the truth is that WE dictate what we can and can't do, no one else. It's true that women are able to move more acceptably through the spectrum but only because they've worked damn hard over the years to attain that fluidity! And I mean they worked at it! They fought and bled for it and sometimes died for that societal freedom! Who are we to demand such equality without making an equivalent effort? It's far easier to simply sit back and grumble about inequality than to stand up in public and do something about it.

EDIT - Although this satirical video clip is about women, it could just as easily been turned around and used against men in this case!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU

Tina B said - "Well I am no doctor, I don't even play one on TV"

Haha, this cracked me up dear! :D

Personally I crossdress as an act of self-expression. It's a way of releasing who I am inside, at least to a degree. I'm not a guy trying to emulate a GG - I'm me, expressing myself without restriction and restraint. As the person inside is predominantly female in nature, that means that my self-expression is predominantly female, even though I have a predominantly male physical form (for now at least). Sometimes I have to restrain myself and wear dull clothing that for want of a better term I'll call "male". Most of the time I wear casual "female" clothing, tee shirts, jeans, skirts, hoodies, boots, shoulder bag, a few touches of jewellery; every day girl-next-door stuff. Sometimes I'll be more feminine and wear a dress. It depends on where I am, where I'm going, what I'm doing and how I feel. I won't lie, sometimes it's difficult to express myself the way I want to and I'll bow to (usually imaginary) peer pressure but that's something I work on a little more each day. Of course, while I'm predominantly female, I still have male aspects and so I need to allow them expression too.

Sissystephanie said - "Rarely, if ever, do I experience ridicule! Maybe it is because my atitude is that I belong in those clothes! As far as I am concerned, I do! It is nobodys business what I wear except my own."

Exactly! That's the best attitude! Damn girl, I want to buy you a drink for that :drink: :hugs:

[Kate Simmons]

Men and women both CD esentially for the same reasons. The intensity of the objective is the fundamental difference.:)

[Stephanie Scott]

Quote:
My wife will sometimes wear my boxers or my college football jersey or my t-shirts or sweats or something, but she isn't trying to pass as male.

I am not passing as a female when I wear a nightie to bed. Ask my wife.


Quote:
her femininity is even more evident in the course of wearing these clothes.

Interesting idea. Does not work for me though. But by your logic my masculinity is enhanced when I wear a nightie to bed. Think you might have a losing argument there.

Well, it is evident that you have misunderstood much of what I am saying. Comparing a woman who wears my t-shirts and sweats to a man who wears a nightie to bed is again a straw man. "Most" women don't wear male clothes in order to "feel" masculine. I suspect most CDers DO wear female clothes in order to "feel" and "express" femininity. I just believe there is a fundamental difference there. Now of course, there are ALWAYS exceptions, and I suppose I could be wrong about this generalization, but I don't think I am.

You completely missed my point from my comment about my wife's enhanced femininity when she wears some articles of male clothing. I was trying to CONTRAST, not COMPARE the examples of men wearing women's clothes and women wearing men's clothes, which you went on to do apparently more effectively than I did! Obviously, a man's masculinity is not enhanced by wearing a nightie. That was the point!

Your comment about tomboys was interesting. We typically don't classify them as TG. I wonder why? Does this explain the apparent discrepancy in numbers? And why is it acceptable in society to be a tomboy?

[VeronicaMoonlit]

No one's brought up the fact that most FTM's start out being part of the lesbian community, where being butch is praised and butches have high status as the proctectors and defenders of the community, but becoming an FTM.....welll....let's just say that the lesbian community has only just recently started to come to terms with their trans issues.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Ralph]

I guess I am not "average" in that I do wear women's garments basically for convenience and mostly comfort, and make no effort to present myself as anything but male.

And thank you for saying so! I was starting to feel left out of most of these conversations as I have no interest in being, or looking like, a woman. Glad to know there's another "brother" here.

ralph

[Samantha Gunning]

Personally for me as my "cd"ing is concerned I think its a mixture of circumstances that brought me to where I am now.

1) Being raised by my mother alone and not having a male role model around so in essence wanting to be as feminine as I could be.

2) Discovering how much I Enjoy Women's clothing more-so than Men's.

3) Then over the years making the progression from one article of clothing to adding more and more to the wardrobe.

4) Wanting to look as much like a Woman in those clothes as possible it just didn't look right to me to have a hairy face or legs ect... while wearing those soft and sensual items.

5) I have to agree that GG's get to wear guys clothing whenever they want and in that being as socially accepted as it is by both sex's it's not a big issue.

[Sarasometimes]

Well I am no doctor, I don't even play one on TV, but some think it's a hormonal thing that happens during pregnancy, and it only happens to the male child. if that is true, then most FTM's would most likely have a much different reason than we do. And the difference in reasons, might just be the reason for the difference in the numbers.
If you look on the net I am sure you can find someone that can explain it much better than I could.
Tina

You may be on to something since we all start out female and then during pregnancy if the hormones are right we develope into males. If we get almost barely enough of those male hormones does that cause in part the TG/CD thing. Sounds possible.

[Intertwined]

I think part of the difference with cders (males and females) is that for males we sort of need to present ourselves to look like women in order to not look very strange.

Makes me think of Marketing, when an auto maker is trying to flash up a commercial using a scantily clad woman, do they use a woman that is a size 8 or 10, NO, they use someone that is a size 0 or 2, why? because thats what we are used to, its been pounded into our heads, thats what looks sexy, do you see the point im making, the average Joe wearing a skirt, or heels, and nothing else feme only seems strange because we dont see it all the time.


I think that just wearing opposite sex clothes does not make a crossdresser.

Again, it's just my opinion, but for being called a crossdresser you are supposed to enjoy it, and to mean it.

Very good point, just because you put on a set of scrubs and a stethoscope, that does not make you a doctor. A person can crossdress without being a crossdresser.


I said we want to temporarily experience something as closely akin to being a woman that we can get. We want to "pass" because we want to be acknowledged, recognized, and treated as a female temporarily.

Or, it can be we are trying to escape from the expectations of being Masculine, ie. your not supposed to cry when the pet dies, you pick up the carcass, take it out back, dig a hole, bury it and forget about it.


While I acknowledge the tremendous comfort of skirts, I would venture to say that the accompanying high heels, waist cinchers, bras, etc etc do not qualify as being physically comfortable, even though they might be psychologically comfortable for us. The "skirt comfort" argument is a straw man.

I am 6 foot 2 inches tall with a 30 inch inseam, short legs and a long body, and I find high heels help my posture, and relieve back pain, same with back braces and corsets, although corsets are a pain in the butt to get into without help. quoting Pirates movie " you like pain? try wearing a corset "


I am surprised that nobody has mentioned their parent's influence. At a rough guess most of us were brought up in a family where there was probably a father and almost all of us had a mother.

My parents seperated before I was 2 years old, raised by my mom, grandmothers, aunts, and there women friends, as a child I swam in the estrogen ocean. The only male firgures in my life were drunks, women beaters, and one murderer.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

Because there is a DOUBLE STANDARD when it comes to us !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JoAnne Wheeler

[Nicki B]

A person can crossdress without being a crossdresser.

If that is to be the case, I suggest you need a more descriptive term than 'crossdresser', which, of itself, only describes an action?

What would you call someone who crossdresses but isn't a crossdresser? :strugglin

[Satrana]

Well, it is evident that you have misunderstood much of what I am saying.
I understood completely. It was you who introduced the strawman argument. I have never read comments where anyone suggested that the average woman wearing masculine clothes was trying to emulate a man. It is blatantly obvious they are not so why argue the case?

You then argued that since their motivation was different from some CDs, they were not crossdressers. Not true, they are still crossdressing but have different motivations.

There are many, many motivations behind MTF crossdressing not just the one you personally identify with. Are we now to shift through these many reasons to categorize who are CDs and who are not?

Women wearing masculine clothes feel more masculine. Women wearing feminine clothes feel more feminine.
The effect of clothing on gender identification exists for everyone, it is simply the degree that differs from person to person as Arianna already pointed out.

Emulation is a sub-category of crossdressing. Crossdressers are not defined by whether they emulate or not. It would be like defining who is a car driver by whether they overspeed or not.

The second problem is that you are comparing apples to oranges. Today's women are not subject to the taboo status of MTF crossdressing, they don't go into the closet, they don't ponder if they are gay or transsexual, they don't suffer from overwhelming guilt and shame, they don't stand out from other women who also habitually use masculine clothing etc. Naturally women will have a different outlook from on using clothing since their environmental framework and life experiences are very different from the typical MTF CD.

[Satrana]

What would you call someone who crossdresses but isn't a crossdresser? :strugglin
A normal person?

It would be better for our community to use a different label such as tomgirl to avoid the confusion from using the behavior of crossdressing to define motivations and feelings.

[sarahNZ]

I wonder Stephanie if it has something to do with the fact that the dominent sex in the world is in fact female. the rate that males are declining it is little wonder to me that more of us are showing a feminin side.

I heard a few years back that if things go as they are now, males will go extinct, don't know how much truth there is in that but it makes you think.

[MissConstrued]

I heard a few years back that if things go as they are now, males will go extinct, don't know how much truth there is in that but it makes you think.


It makes me think, all right. Makes me wonder what kind of lunatic thinks females won't follow right after.

[battybattybats]

It makes me think, all right. Makes me wonder what kind of lunatic thinks females won't follow right after.

Oh thats easy to prevent. Firstly there's cloning, that is getting better and better, secondly there is sperm-free fertilisation where genetic material is injected into an egg and the egg triggered to combine the dna and produce an embryo.. that too is getting pretty effective and thirdly there is parthenogenesis where a mother produces their own clone daughter (as found in a number of animals including Komodo Dragons).. all of these are being researched heavilly to desperatly limit slow and eventually prevent the increasing current human-caused Mass Extinction of great swathes of species as well as for use in farm animal production and human fertility treatments.

All of those can mean male-free reproduction.


A normal person?

It would be better for our community to use a different label such as tomgirl to avoid the confusion from using the behavior of crossdressing to define motivations and feelings.

There are far too many varieties of CD (and plenty who pass from group to group over time) to do that and start tossing broad swathes of people out of the CD label. Maybe instead we should have sub-groupings?

So we'd have Tomgirl-CD's (I don't like the use of Tom in that, can't we find a common girls name?), Bi-Gender-Identity-CDs, Sexual-CDs etc

[Satrana]

There are far too many varieties of CD (and plenty who pass from group to group over time) to do that and start tossing broad swathes of people out of the CD label. Maybe instead we should have sub-groupings?
Yes we should. Proper distinctions are well overdue and would result in far better understanding. So long as we resist the temptation of produce too many distinctions which would be counterproductive as there is too much overlap and gray areas .


So we'd have Tomgirl-CD's (I don't like the use of Tom in that, can't we find a common girls name?), Bi-Gender--CDs, Sexual-CDs etc I would keep the term tomgirl because that is a generic term that laypeople can relate to. They have a much better understanding about tomboys than they do about CDs so we should take advantage of that. They know tomboys are girls who enjoy male activities and male company but are not transsexuals and usually grow up to be heterosexual women. Within the community we can use more specific terms that laypeople will never learn about.

[valenstein]

I've always liked "Janegirl".

I think a lot of it is repression. Most guys grow up being taught to suppress emotions and to deny anything that might make them seem weak. I think if we raised boys and girls equally, there might still be as much crossdressing, but it wouldn't be the crossdressing we think of today. The human embyro is female by default and males are much more likely to have some sort of physical complication at birth; it stands to reason that the mixing of hormones and brain development might be equally as complicated.

[Nicki B]

A normal person?

It would be better for our community to use a different label such as tomgirl to avoid the confusion from using the behavior of crossdressing to define motivations and feelings.

I was replying using the language Intertwined used.. If you notice, I don't use the term CD myself, I think it has very little merit as it simply describes a behaviour, it says nothing about the person?

And I'm quite happy being called a tomboy - but that's just me... :heehee:

[Intertwined]

Errr.... run that past me again.

A person can crossdress without being a crossdresser

So, your telling me (which you may be right) every little boy that dresses up in a tutu for holloween, or every little girl that dresses up like a hobo and paints whiskers on they're face is a crossdresser?

In my own little vocabularial world (:lol: like that word?), the intent makes or breaks the definition of crossdresser, crossdressing just because its one of many possible choices for a costume party does not make you a crossdresser. Wearing clothing of the opposite gender for purely nothing but shock value does not make you a crossdresser, and actually, I think Wikipedia calls that " Gender F _ _ _ ". Now wearing clothing of the opposite gender because you enjoy it, or it feels right, or IS right, then I would say you are probably a crossdresser. :2c:

[sherib]

What a tough question to answer. Most GG's look good in male or female clothes. They can put on any type of clothes and wear it well and look good. If they want to act like a guy they can. If they or someone think they are acting silly or stupid, they can laugh it off as acting silly. A guy, standing there in women's clothes, with a wig and make up, in 4" heels, is caught. Most of us, have to find some way to contour our bodies to make womens clothes look good on us. The heels are huge, the dresses are from plus sizes Lane Bryant and if you got some kind of shape. You have a corset on. Have you every notice that Female transsexuals usually grow breads, get tattoos, bulk up by lifting weights to gain more of a male appearance. If they didn't, they would look like women in males clothes. Basically what we do in reverse. I think there are more women that like to dress a men then that do not express it. They can swap back and forth a hide when necessary.

[rickie121x]

.... Have you seen the statistics on tomboyish behavior in women?

No, but it would be interesting. What are these stats???


.... I suggest you need a more descriptive term than 'crossdresser', which, of itself, only describes an action? ....
:strugglin

Right on! ...that crossdressing only describes an action. Somehow that makes me feel better - about myself. Thank you for that thought. :o

Now that action is taken because it makes me more satisfied, and or feel better. That's pretty simple. But why those feelings happen, that is one can of worms we keep trying to see into - with a set of continually increasing complexities of notions, reasons, excuses, with mixed approaches due to sexual perspectives - oh my there is no end to all of this. And because it involves ME, it nevertheless continues to be interesting and involving.

I am not enough well informed to comment on psychological aspects of gender distinctions re crossdressing, just only the obvious stuff - and as I have read here and agree: Women can and will - with little or no negative reactions. Males can and will - with mixed reaction which reaches into our minds often producing fear and pain. Sad and true for most of us, but that's the world in which we live.

Nevertheless, we wouldn't keep doing it if it our benefits did not balance the fear and pain.

[Hali]

What about Tomboys they always deny being called CDs i dont know why. I think some of them are TS and they dont even know.

I said it in one of the posts that some of the threads posted on this forum are better answered by an expert in psychology or something.

[Carly D.]

What a tough question to answer. Most GG's look good in male or female clothes. They can put on any type of clothes and wear it well and look good. If they want to act like a guy they can. If they or someone think they are acting silly or stupid, they can laugh it off as acting silly. A guy, standing there in women's clothes, with a wig and make up, in 4" heels, is caught. Most of us, have to find some way to contour our bodies to make womens clothes look good on us. The heels are huge, the dresses are from plus sizes Lane Bryant and if you got some kind of shape. You have a corset on. Have you every notice that Female transsexuals usually grow breads, get tattoos, bulk up by lifting weights to gain more of a male appearance. If they didn't, they would look like women in males clothes. Basically what we do in reverse. I think there are more women that like to dress a men then that do not express it. They can swap back and forth a hide when necessary.


The big telling sign anymore is that I think we as cross dressers get second looks because women don't dress up that much anymore.. so cross dressers get made or caught because we are dressed up completely.. trying to look more like women then women do anymore..

[Satrana]

Here are some studies which shows how common it is among girls and the current androgyny observed in adult women is fueled by the significant levels of crossdressing while young.

Tomboyism
Janet S. Hyde, B. G. Rosenberg, Jo Ann Behrman, Bowling Green State University

The meager research available on tomboyism is based on the assumption that it is rare and abnormal. Following an initial observation that 78% of a group of undergraduate women reported having been tomboys in childhood, the frequency of tomboyism was assessed in two samples, one of junior-high girls, the other of adult women. In the junior-high sample, 63% reported being tomboys, while 51% of the adult women reported having been tomboys in childhood. Tomboyish behaviors such as a preference for active, outdoor games, playing with boys, and wearing jeans were also very frequent. It was concluded that tomboyism is statistically quite common and there is little indication that it is abnormal.


A Three Generational Study of Tomboy Behavior
Betsy Levonian Morgan

The perceptions and definitions of were explored across three generations of women. The sample included 521 women ( , their mothers, and their grandmothers)ranging in age from 17 to 94 who were categorized into one of three cohorts (Generation Xers, Baby Boomers or Senior Citizens) for a final sample of 466. The sample was 87% European American, 6% Native American, 3% Hispanic, and 2% Asian American. 67% of the sample reported being tomboys during their childhood. The average age reported for starting tomboy behavior was 5.8, whereas the average age for ceasing tomboy behavior was 12.6.


A developmental study of destereotyping and androgynous activity preferences of tomboys, nontomboys, and males
Pat Plumb and Gloria Cowan

A study of 210 fourth, sixth, eighth, and tenth graders and adults was conducted to determine developmental trends in both destereotyping of traditionally gender-typed activities and preferences for those activities, and to compare activity preferences of tomboys with other females and with males at different ages. Tenth graders destereotyped less than the other age levels. Additionally, female subjects destereotyped traditionally boys' activities more than girls' activities and more than male subjects. Although nontomboys and boys showed a preference for gender-traditional activities, tomboys preferred traditional girls' and boys' activities equally. Self-defined tomboys do not reject traditionally female activities; instead, they expand their repertoire of activities to include both gender-traditional and nontraditional activities. It is suggested that girls who are able to transcend gender-role behavior in childhood may be the ones who will grow into androgynous adult women.

[Leslie Langford]

Unless I missed mention of one important distinction in this very interesting and illuminating thread - the obvious point that seems to have been overlooked here is that clothing per se has no sex or gender - it is the arbitrary value and role that we assign to a particular item of clothing that by definition then characterizes it as male, female, or unisex.

Granted, some items of clothing by virtue of their function deserve to be classified as either "male" or "female" as they are specific to the anatomy of the particular sex that they are designed for - bras, for example, in the case of women, or jock straps for males. For a man to wear a bra then becomes more of a fetishistic activity unless he has a severe case of gynacomastia.

On the other hand, where is it written that only women should be "allowed" to wear nylon or microfiber panties? I personally find these much more comfortable than the "tighty whiteys" or boxer shorts that some "authority" once upon a time decreed should be foisted upon the menfolk without consulting me for my opinion on the matter. Ditto for pantyhose and silky nightgowns etc. And I also much prefer to wear a nice cami than one of those horrid "wife beater" style undershirts.

And bear in mind that the whole discussion here is based on some very tenuous assumptions, since it is really only reflective of the social mores in effect today regarding what constitutes appropriate clothng for either sex. It wasn't always so, and back in the 17th and 18th centuries, for example, it was the norm for men to be the ones who wore the wigs, long hair, make up, ruffled shirts, silk stockings with knee breeches, high heeled shoes with buckles, slouchy boots etc., etc. - in other words, the very type of clothing that we now consider to be typically "female".

To paraphrase the argument made above that women who wear male clothing are not really crossdressers because by doing what they do, they are not trying to impersonate men - would any of us have been considered crossdressers back in Jack Sparrrow's day if we had dressed like him then?

[JOJO44]

WOW!
What a load of information, and opinion.
For me, I just want to pass with maybe a second glance from someone on occasion. Yes, I dress because it makes me feel, what - - more natural?
I am absolutely comfortable in jeans and a blouse or sweater (check my pics). My wife tolerates my dressing while she wears jeans (dressy) quite frequently and does not even think about it, let alone think she is a CD. I believe all the "Freud's" out there would have a hayday with this page; and those of us who try to figure out why and what we are would become totally confused if we listened to them!
We are what we are.
Love to all,
Jo :love:

[Senban]

Leslie Langford said - "Granted, some items of clothing by virtue of their function deserve to be classified as either "male" or "female" as they are specific to the anatomy of the particular sex that they are designed for - bras, for example, in the case of women, or jock straps for males. For a man to wear a bra then becomes more of a fetishistic activity unless he has a severe case of gynacomastia."

/me looks up gynacomastia to avoid looking silly :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia

Okay, got that so far :)

Well I'm wearing a bra right now and I don't have gynecomastia and I don't have a fetish for bras or indeed any other items of clothing. It may not serve the purpose which most people might expect but it serves a purpose to me in that it feels "correct" to wear one, just like it feels "correct" to wear all the various items of female clothing that I wear. None of it is fetishistic in my case but rather an outward expression of what is going on inside. So I'd have to say that your argument is false because it attempts to cover too many possibilities with one broad sweep. It's certainly true that some people may wear a bra as a form of fetish but I very much doubt I'm alone in the fact that I'm not one of them.

As for your other point, I'd agree that clothing itself is often neutral to gender and it is society itself that actually dictates whether something is male or female. Everyone will agree that miniskirts are predominantly worn by women in modern times but what about in Roman history? Check it out. The same clothes can be seen as male, female or gender-neutral in different time periods and different geographical areas. Consider kilts too.

http://www.legionxiiii.com/images/Roman_Soldiers.gif

And here's a modern photo from Japan of a male wearing a miniskirt in public. I've seen this myself on multiple trips to Japan.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/53/131005020_9df83ff429.jpg?v=0

But then Japan has got it made, look at this :D

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b233/Metallkette/Japan2.jpg

[Hope]

Oh - there is fresh material for the next wootoff!

[Linda Z]

I guess I am not "average" in that I do wear women's garments basically for convenience and mostly comfort, and make no effort to present myself as anything but male.

i tend to go this way, it is easyer and better for my family.
though - i like to take the sharp edges off the male mold, sometimes.
it also sits well over time with me.

linda Z