Why is it when someone takes the TS label they get so much criticism?

[Nicole Erin]

Could be over a forum or real world.

It seems when someone labels themself a TS, it is like a lot of other folks in the gender community will come up with "No you are not really TS because..."
And the things usually are -
"You enjoy [some female garment] so you are CD..."
"You have not done the "hard" stuff" like electro..."
"You have not been trying to be a female since age 3.."
"You have [some kind of] style of sex..."
"You enjoy sex period"

I don't really claim any label.

Why do those who call themselves TS catch so much hell from our own TG community? It seems the biggest thing that causes other TG to tell someone "You are not a real TS..." is if they enjoy sex in any way shape or form.
What gives with this?

[GypsyKaren]

Some people are ignorant but like to feel important, so they talk and talk about things they know nothing about, it fills dead air time. Another way to feel important is to judge, and another way to judge is to ridicule, and all of this helps to label the source as an idiot.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Heatherx75]

Anyone trying to imply that being TS is like some exclusive club that all the cool kids want to get into is completely full of it. I fought being TS tooth and nail for about 30 years. Now that I've given up on that I can understand my aversion. I don't need to tell anyone that it's no picnic. If I could just wear the clothes occasionally and be happy, I'd do that. And I respect the people who do that. At the end of the day, all you can ever be is what you are, and if we didn't choose it, how can we make it into a character judgment?

[Lisa Golightly]

Ummmmmm... I can honestly say I've never had an issue... Or maybe I have and just not picked up on it. I've really never bothered about the labels... I've always just been fluid. (I made up my own as a joke... Always been a Glamsexual...)

I just don't bother with the 'competitive' types... It's not in my nature.

[Senban]

I think it's often the same in any group, whether it be the LGBT community or whatever. I'm involved in a number of forums related to various activities and I've seen similar behaviour patterns repeated endlessly. People create a bunch of boxes to slot everyone into. But once they start to talk they realise that those boxes are inadequate and certainly the individual will argue that they don't fit into Box 1 because of Reason A and they'll argue for the creation of box 1A. But the next person says they don't fit into Box 1A because of reason AB and so another box is created. And so forth.

It's certainly true that there is a whole spectrum of positions and we're all on there somewhere. But some people like to argue that you're not *really* suitable to be included in this or that group because you're not hardcore enough or whatever.

At the end of the day, even considering the LGBT community as a separate box to the rest of the world is a mistake that originates in peoples' desire to feel special. I sat in on some diversity training related to sexual orientation yesterday as part of my job (I missed the gender-related training due to a clash of timetables unfortunately) and I was amazed at the attitudes being shown from some attendees. They were arguing about coming out in the workplace and making a great deal of the issue. If heterosexual people don't feel the need to come out as heterosexual, why do you feel the need to come out as homosexual was my question. It's my opinion that people want to be seen as special.

To follow up that point, some statistics were given. You'll have to forgive me for paraphrasing from memory but the figures were showing that only one third of homosexuals in the workplace had come out. Several people were quite vocal about this, stating that the other two thirds were afraid to come out and so something must be done! But my argument was that maybe, just maybe, many of those two thirds just didn't feel the need to come out. That maybe they were secure enough in themselves that they could just get on with their lives and not make an issue out of something that didn't need to be made an issue of. Of course I accept that many of those two thirds were indeed afraid to come out for a number of reasons. But assuming that the two thirds were a fearful minority may not be strictly accurate.

As you can imagine, that point didn't go down well with some of the attendees but that just proves my point. Certain people will always try to make a case for them having special status apart from others and they will always resist the inclusion of others in their special group unless they meet very strict criteria.

Before anyone leaps down my throat by the way, obviously I am an advocate of equality and the recognition of diversity, otherwise I wouldn't be voluntarily attending such training as this or working with the LGBT staff group in my workplace. But the very fact that we create our own little groups such as this creates yet more barriers to inclusion, even if they come from good intentions.

Also for the record, I'm undergoing weekly counselling/therapy to come to terms with just who and what I am. And as tempting as it can be to sometimes apply different labels to myself (crossdresser/heterosexual/trans-gender/trans-sexual), the truth is that ultimately those labels are false as none of them express the whole truth. Anyone who tries to convince themselves that they can be packaged under a specific label or two is fooling themselves I believe. And they might just be cutting out an important piece of themselves so as to find a fit for themselves in a box.

The truth is, there's only one label that applies to each of us.

Person

[Stephanie Stephens]

Semantics, semantics, semantics, oh my aching head. I think I will just jump off of the teeter-tooter while the other person is in the air. That will shut him/her up.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

heather true dat!!!:2c: it was a long 30 yrs i bet...for me it was more like 40

[Sara Jessica]

Could be over a forum or real world.

It seems when someone labels themself a TS, it is like a lot of other folks in the gender community will come up with "No you are not really TS because..."
And the things usually are -
"You enjoy [some female garment] so you are CD..."
"You have not done the "hard" stuff" like electro..."
"You have not been trying to be a female since age 3.."
"You have [some kind of] style of sex..."
"You enjoy sex period"

I don't really claim any label.

Why do those who call themselves TS catch so much hell from our own TG community? It seems the biggest thing that causes other TG to tell someone "You are not a real TS..." is if they enjoy sex in any way shape or form.
What gives with this?

It unfortunately goes both ways in our community because there is soooo much diversity along the gender spectrum. Just like our SO's, family and friends who never give their biological gender a second thought, there are some on the CD'er side who think those who ID as being TS are sick (in other words, they refuse to empathise with our experience). And likewise, there are some on the TS end who have gone though so much to be authentic to their being that anyone who falls short isn't deserving of the same label. It's hard to imagine global acceptance of who we are considering the disagreements within our own group. But at the end of the day, it's all just a label and who cares what anyone thinks.

[Senban]

Sara Jessica said - "It's hard to imagine global acceptance of who we are considering the disagreements within our own group."

That's a very good point and if I'm honest, it's one of the reasons why I don't tend to get more involved with TG groups. This is going to sound harsh now I know, but in my personal experience, there are too many people with chips on their shoulders about labels and about maintaining their self-identity about being an oppressed and disadvantaged minority. Don't get me wrong, I've met some amazing people too, people who are amazingly positive. I just wish there were a few more of them and a few less people arguing amongst themselves about their labels.

Just yesterday at that training I mentioned, the woman delivering the meeting, an old friend of mine as it happens, used the word "transvestite" in answering a question from an attendee. I smiled to myself thinking of the people I know who would have jumped into the air screaming "crossdresser, not transvestite!!!" or something similar at that point. The world is full of people who will label you differently to the way you label yourself and you can't change that so there's little point getting bent out of shape over such things. :2c:

[Nicole Erin]

OK so people want to feel special, or want to be a part of a small club...

But so far, no one has said anything about why sexual desire seems to be the biggest thing that others try to say "not really a TS"
Is a TS not allowed to have "needs"?

I was talking to one friend about this, a CD woman, she said "They are probably just trying to clean it up for the GG's"

So what about that part of it?

[~Kelly~]

I honestly can't respond for ANYONE other than myself on this. And as such, I can't make a judgement on anyone else because each and every person is different. However, here is my experience. Sexuality has NEVER been a part of my being. Now, I am not saying I am assexual at all because I am attracted sexually to others. However, that is where it ends. At least for now. I have never had sex "as a man". I WILL never have sex "as a man". I am not a man and I cannot find it in me to have sex as such. The other end of the spectrum (at least at this point) is being treated as a novelty. This is undesirable as well. Therefore, sex does not play any role in any of this for me. But again, this is my experience and I refuse to judge someone else who may differ. We are ALL different.

[Sharon]

But so far, no one has said anything about why sexual desire seems to be the biggest thing that others try to say "not really a TS"
Is a TS not allowed to have "needs"?

I also can only speak for myself, but I certainly do not fit into this mold. My "needs" are more real today than they ever were before I began this journey. After all, I am now living as the real me as opposed to trying to fit into a mold that I wasn't meant to fit in. Are we still not social creatures?


I was talking to one friend about this, a CD woman, she said "They are probably just trying to clean it up for the GG's"

So what about that part of it?

I wonder how a crossdresser can assume anything about a transsexual. I wouldn't presume to do the same to them.

It's BS, by the way.

[Tizabet]

when someone labels themself a TS
That wording seems like the key to me. I mean, yes, TS is an accurate term to describe me, but I'm not gonna run around saying "Hey look, I'm trans! Whee!" Y'know? The way I figure it, I'm a just a girl who with a horrible disfigurement that happened to make me look male. Anyways... I wonder if a part of it isn't a reaction (conscious or otherwise) to that. Saying, ah, but if you're TS inside (as opposed to a boy or a girl), then you should be fitting this third set of criteria.

And just for fun, feel free to pass this on to anyone who tries to make such ridiculous claims...

"You enjoy [some female garment] so you are CD..."
And you don't think GGs derive pleasure out wearing something that looks nice or feels nice against their skin? Enjoyment and fetishism aren't mutually inclusive. And even if there is some fetishism involved, I don't think that invalidates any other feelings.

"You have not done the "hard" stuff" like electro..."
There's this little thing called circumstances, and they're quite different for everyone. Money may be tight (there are a lot of sink holes with therapy, hormones, building up a wardrobe, et cetera). Certain things may be temporarily problematic due to your job. Point is, the order of priorities, speed of progression, and extremity to which anyone goes really says little to nothing about how they feel inside. And frankly, admitting how you feel is "hard" enough. The emotional side of things is far more difficult than the physical could ever be.

"You have not been trying to be a female since age 3.."
Denial is such a strong power. When you know nothing about trans issues, it's easy to assume it couldn't possibly mean you. Everyone around you is happy to drop you into the boy box based on the presence of a penis. And once you're in that box, it can be extremely difficult to notice it's the wrong one. Don't fit in? Try harder. Not manly enough? Go play sports! Go join the military! Go wrestle alligators! It's easy to get so caught up in proving yourself that you never stop to notice that the only thing you're really proving is that you just don't fit in that box. It just takes some people a little longer than others to catch on.

"You have [some kind of] style of sex..."
So do plenty of GGs. I don't care what the [some kind of] is. You'll find 'em. And a part of that enjoyment may be simply from familiarity. Especially if it took you a while to realize your issues. Enjoying one things doesn't mean you have to or can't enjoy another thing.

"You enjoy sex period"
Lol, what? You realize that GGs like sex, right? So, um... Why wouldn't a TS?

[Priss]

Probably opening my big mouth, but I'll jump into this one...

Personally, I believe that the only person who can give us the label TS, is ourself. But I think that inorder for us to accept that label, one has to be willing to go all the way through SRS and disappearing back into society as just another woman... Now, when I say willing, that's what I mean, willing... It has to be understood that each individual has their own circumstances as to why they may or may not make it to SRS and beyond. I think a person should be in no way maligned because they can't make it all the way.

As far as Iam concerned, that description leaves the field wide open for anyone who wants to have that label... But I must ask this question... For anyone who is not atleast willing, why is it that you have a need to have this label? Why is it that you must be TS and not TV or TG or a Crossdresser?

What I see, is that TSs, go through quite a bit to perfect themselves and then disappear back into society as just another woman. They want to be taken seriously by society. How can anyone be taken seriously when there is someone always going off the deep end calling themselves a TS on the Jerry Springer show? I think that this is why TSs get so irritated and proprietary about the label.

As for sex, well how often is it that we actually have the opportunity unless we're already in some sort of relationship? When it comes down to it, if you can get some, well parts is parts and if you can get it it's gonna be with what parts you have at the time... Why shouldn't a person enjoy it? I personally look at sex as a gift of pleasure from the Goddess. I most certainly took part before SRS, and while I couldn't necessarily use it in the male fasion (it just wouldn't do that anymore), I certainly enjoyed what I could get when I got it. I don't think that makes me any less of who I was then or now. You are who you are, don't let anyone else define you.

:2c:

[Kayla Shadows]

I dont know what is is either.I look at things and dont see there is a absolute one right way to be who you are.And the sex aspect your looking to talk about..I dont know.I mean,they make toys for women to have sex like men right? So obviously somebody out there has the idea to go through the motions.Transitioning or not,nobody can tell you what your brain thinks.To be "real" as some will try to explain to you,you have to do this,this and that and if you dont do this,your not that,and if...omg,with the this and that.Who you are is who you are...not what people think you are.None of that matters.What you know and how you choose to deal with it is what is important.Say I didnt transition...when you close your eyes,do I all of a sudden think differently? No.Like many others here say,some people have nothing better to do.

[Anna the Dub]

But I think that inorder for us to accept that label, one has to be willing to go all the way through SRS and disappearing back into society as just another woman.

This makes perfect sense to me. Not all of us will make it to that dream, as you said because of individual circumstances, but to be willing to do it, defines us as TS. Certainly it does me.

[Sally2005]

My guess, it is disbelief brought on by comparison of there own journey or the history of the CDer. One goes from 'dress up fun...to part time and full time' and can be reversed. The other is a total life change...so unless you fit the image of being a TS it is probably hard to convince anyone, until you have progressed far enough that people can not see you any other way. It would be like someone who looks totally male, saying they are TS...people would not believe it...but after being on hormones and having problems passing as male, people will change their view and say...they new it all along. Listen to your own self.

[Raquel June]

But so far, no one has said anything about why sexual desire seems to be the biggest thing that others try to say "not really a TS"
Is a TS not allowed to have "needs"?

I've had similar thoughts quite a bit but I try not to say anything. I'm already enough of a minority -- I don't need to alienate TS people.

Most TS people are just fine and accepting. The trannier-than-thou ones love to come up with reasons you're not really TS. As for "needs," they seem to like bragging about having zero erections and no real sex drive and dry orgasms when they do -- well, whatever it is that they do. I think some of them resent non-op tgirls for taking a "short-cut" by avoiding SRS. But for their sake I think it's better just to refer to myself as TG since I don't have a deep hatred for my penis, and I'm really not in any big hurry to get any kind of surgery.

Some TS people are very dismissive of TG people on HRT who aren't looking to get SRS ASAP -- especially if you're not 100% celibate. It's pretty taboo, and keeps you from being taken seriously because people associate you with ******* pornstars.

RiftGirl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRDvnPSmT2I), the popular girl on YouTube, is a non-SRS TG girl. She's my hero. I'm sure she gets a lot of hate for being so passable yet not having SRS.

I think it's kinda depressing that pre-op girls are described as having sex "as a man" if they use what they have.

[Nicki B]

Some TS people are very dismissive of TG people on HRT who aren't looking to get SRS ASAP

But isn't that really a mark of their own lack of self-confidence? They're looking for validation that other people are doing it 'their' way... :sad:

You see it so many times. :straightface:

[Aurora27]

I think its all been said. Mostly people just want to belong to a group, and will fight vehemently against 'intruders' or 'threats' to that group. Its a rare person who is willing to slip from society's groups, whatever they may be, and live life as a single entity. As much as I'm a loner at heart I don't think I could entirely break away from wanting to belong with a group of similar humans, and I too would probably shy away from someone claiming a similar identity to me who I felt had not had the same experiences as me. Yeah, I try to be accepting of all situations, but I will admit the urge to reject is still there to some degree no matter how tolerant I become.

[Raquel June]

Here's another thing that I don't hear discussed very often. I have a local post-op friend that I talk to a lot. She's sort of in charge of our support group. She's constantly talking to TS people online and always saying how many pre-op TS girls she talks to who put way too much importance on SRS. They make every other aspect of transitioning secondary, and SRS is the Holy Grail to them. Then they can only be disappointed when SRS isn't as magical as they thought it would be.

SRS won't make you a genetic woman. If you're uncomfortable in your own skin before SRS, you will likely still be uncomfortable in your own skin after SRS. If you are fixated on your penis and have directed all your inner problems towards that, those issues will still be there and need to be dealt with after SRS.

SRS is a major milestone, and there's nothing wrong with seeing it as such and being proud of it, but I see a lot of tgirls who can't see the forest for the ... uhh ... tree. There are much bigger personal issues to worry about in life than the mechanics of your genitalia.

[StevieTV]

[QUOTE=Lisa Golightly;1615337] (I made up my own as a joke... Always been a Glamsexual...)


Lisa..would you mind if I used this label as well?? It's perfect!

[Kayla Shadows]

SRS won't make you a genetic woman. If you're uncomfortable in your own skin before SRS, you will likely still be uncomfortable in your own skin after SRS.

There is truth in that.I think that somewhere the hate has to stop.If you hate and hate and hate,you might just start to hate that the result might not be that picture perfect vision that you wanted.Or you realize that jumping into it wasnt the answer to all your problems.

Would I do it?Its a lot to think about.If someone had some magic potion and said,"if you take this,tomarrow you will wake up and look like you feel",right now in my current thought and situation,I would..But I will look from a different angle and defend the people that wouldnt get SRS because I think that even as us,were different and it is not a bad or wrong thing to be different.I will not stick nobody in a box and say,if you dont want to do this,your not real.Reality is a lot different then the answers people have for other peoples lives.

I dont know what anybody wants to call me but,whatever they can think of,thats fine with me.It still doesnt make me who I know I am.50 million people can say,this is what your supposed to want..but,it doesnt change that not one of those 50 million people is me.I dont need to be boxed in and categorized.How I choose to live is my personal choice.I dont need to be part of a paticular group to fit in.Im not here to fit in.Im here to be my own person.You can call me trans-radical .I will never sit here and say or make anyone think that,if you dont be like this,your not who you are.Because in the end,my decision is mine to make and will be based upon what I believe.Not somebody else.Alone I will stand in whatever I do.I dont need to be accepted in any group.I accept myself and that is what really matters.

Two weeks ago there was a lot of yelling going on outside.It happens sometimes with the bar right down the street.This was directly across the street though and was going on for a while.I decided to step outside to see whats happening.I see this man and he starts pushing this woman around in the parking lot.I had about enough of what I saw so I walked over.Stepped right inbetween them and told him it was time to keep his hands to himself.He was taller then me,about 2 feet wider then me and here I am in the face of this guy I dont even know.He could have pulled out a gun,shot me,stabbed me,or whatever.That is who I am though.Im not the 10 people standing 30 feet away watching and going,omg,this is so bad.Im not like them and will never be.IF I die for a principle or something I believe in,I still did what I felt was right.My father,goddess bless his soul,RIP,if he did anything,he taught me one important thing.When there was 5 people outside my home because I was the "fagget who doesnt belong here", he said,"so..what are you gonna do?..your not gonna teach anybody a lesson standing in here".Yeah I went outside and got my ass kicked but,from that day,one by one,people learned what goes around comes around.

I made a video that some of you may have seen.I wanted to stress a message that I believed.Some people will look at it and say," look at you.your all screwed up and now your gonna play the saint and savior".There are people that walked into my life at a bad time and people that will see how I was for me.But the truth under all the pain is,no,that wasnt me.Maybe I let life tear me down but,Im back.That message is part of me and who I am.Some dont need that help and will see me in one way,while there are people that need that help who will see me in another..because they see me as me.I put in on youtube and received messages from all around the world.To hear that one person say,"you dont even know what you did but,Im not the same person after watching your video.thank you",wasnt expected but my energy was put towards something positive again.

All I am is me and that is the only thing I desire to be.

[Kimberley]

To echo other sentiments, it isnt fun. In fact living this way can be downright misery.

That said, I have and will continue to question others who make this pronouncement out of the blue. When I see things like "I have always loved to dress up and wondered what it would be like to live as a female" or other such comments, I see big red flags. I make no apology for questioning these somewhat obscure comments.

Someone who is TS already knows this in their soul. Some may question why they are resisting in accepting the fact (as I did) and that is a good sign. The transgenderist however may be a bit more on the fence. There is nothing wrong with that either.

As I have said a hundred times before, if you are questioning you are doing so in the wrong place; find a counsellor to help sort out your issues and your life because these are often the barriers to the answers we already have.

[Nicki B]

Lisa..would you mind if I used this label as well?? It's perfect!

Stevie.. Lisa's an original, trust me.

[Raquel June]

When I see things like "I have always loved to dress up and wondered what it would be like to live as a female" or other such comments, I see big red flags. I make no apology for questioning these somewhat obscure comments.

I agree, but I also see big red flags when people refer to their penis as "the offending organ" or a "birth defect" and fixate on it completely. Often these people refuse to talk about their real issues and pretend that everything will be perfect as soon as they get SRS.

I say that because I had similar feelings for years. There are Yahoo groups (at least there were -- I think many of them were shut down) dedicated to people who want to cut off their penises. Many try to castrate themselves with rubber bands or other devices. Many TS people have scars on their genitalia just like cutters have scars on their arms (or wherever). It's a fixation that comes from being unable to manage your feelings, and whether or not you are "really TS," it's just not healthy.




As I have said a hundred times before, if you are questioning you are doing so in the wrong place; find a counsellor to help sort out your issues and your life because these are often the barriers to the answers we already have.

I think most of us could use a good therapist/counselor to sort out our issues. It certainly helped me.

People have a bizarre aversion to therapy. It's almost philosophical -- people seem to think that even if they know they're f-ed up, that it is part of their personality and fixing it would be taking away part of their soul. Some people just love to be miserable. Then there is the fact that most therapists don't know much about treating TG people, so TG people figure they're better off looking around on the Internet for answers. They don't realize that being TG probably isn't their biggest problem.

Many gay people were sexually abused. Many people who are into S&M had a violent childhood. Most sexually compulsive women have an abuse history. Many TG people had childhood trauma -- often a strict, emotionless father who wanted them to be more of a man. That doesn't mean that resolving your issues will make you not gay or not kinky or not TG. But getting some help will make you a happier person.

Social dysphoria, gender dysphoria, Asperger Syndrome and schizophrenia are all related and overlap in their symptoms. These people often have major depression, feelings of isolation, anxiety, intensely focused interests, difficulty maintaining a job, difficulty with everyday tasks, or even difficulty taking care of themselves. They're all generally nice, harmless, and often lonely people, and they all have a pretty high suicide rate. Maybe all TS people don't have these issues, but I'm sure therapy would help most of them. You can't just pawn off all your problems on "being born in the wrong body."

[Lisa Golightly]

Stevie.. Lisa's an original, trust me.

lol... Thank you Angel :) xxx

[Nicki B]

Many gay people were sexually abused. Many people who are into S&M had a violent childhood. Most sexually compulsive women have an abuse history. Many TG people had childhood trauma -- often a strict, emotionless father who wanted them to be more of a man. That doesn't mean that resolving your issues will make you not gay or not kinky or not TG. But getting some help will make you a happier person.

Social dysphoria, gender dysphoria, Asperger Syndrome and schizophrenia are all related and overlap in their symptoms. These people often have major depression, feelings of isolation, anxiety, intensely focused interests, difficulty maintaining a job, difficulty with everyday tasks, or even difficulty taking care of themselves.

Whoa...

Are you talking about just yourself here, or all the rest of us??

There's a logic as to why social dysphoria & depressive illness may be caused for some by their gender dysphoria, perhaps... But you seem to be suggesting, among other things, that being sexually abused makes you gay?? :strugglin

[Raquel June]

There's a logic as to why social dysphoria & depressive illness may be caused for some by their gender dysphoria, perhaps... But you seem to be suggesting, among other things, that being sexually abused makes you gay?? :strugglin

I don't mean to suggest that any of those things apply to everybody. Being sexually abused can make you a lot of things. As far as being gay, most gay people are born that way, but many also get rewired by sexual abuse. This is extremely prevalent in bisexual women. People don't like to talk about it, but most therapists and people who work with abuse victims will tell you the same thing. Abuse (physical, sexual, emotional, or just abandonment) changes your brain, and it usually imparts itself to some degree as a subconscious source of attraction.

[Empress Lainie]

Why Indeed! as Til'q would say.

First new students I had after my transition, 2 months later, I introduced myself as a transgendered woman and got fired for it. This after teaching there for 13 years. I vowed never to make that mistake again.

[Kayla Shadows]

From listening to others all over the internet,I see there are many transexuals that understand there are non op transexuals.And for those who are non op and reading this,I will never argue about if you are real or not.This is supposed to be a support site and I dont see a arguement over you being who you are supportive.What this does it take someone who might not be accepted in their family,not accepted by their old friends,not accepted by many people,and now see they are not accepted within the same people who feel like them about their gender.I think it would feel very hurtful for one.I just see all of working as one towards rights and acceptance in society to be more important then creating walls inside our own people.This thread posed some very good questions.From some answers I see we have a ways to go