passing VS acceptance

[BWOemerger]

I had the chance to go out Monday. I was walking into Wal-Mart to get some fruit for breakfast and the gg greeter smiled and said "Good Morning", like nothing was out of the ordinary. I have gone out but never interacted with anyone before. Then when I went to the check out (self-checkout) the girl that was running it when I finished gave the thanks for shopping. I looked at her, smiled and said "Thanks" and she responded with "See ya" in a way that she wouldn't have to a man. She was a high schooler I think and it was a bit of a shock.

My question is when you are read but accepted are you treated different than if you were passing or in drab. I felt like I was passing and I guess it really doesn't matter other than I really want to know :D

That little trip made my day and I ended up going all over town and never got an odd look. (weird for me)

thanks

[CharleneT]

I think it is very hard to tell the difference between passing and being accepted. Not sure it really matters, except that when you pass, you'd like to know how to repeat it ! :) I guess about the only way to know is if you get the "double take" and then they treat you well.

I was out dancing last weekend and I think I "passed" with a lot of the crowd. BUT it was dark and they were youngish and basically not paying much attention to the old lady dancing like a fool. Very few double takes (normally more from men). I was up front too, back and forth to the bar area etc... no wall flower for sure.

It sounds like a good experience, enjoy it and trust yourself to try again !

C.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

I guess we would all like to pass, but my wife says that she can tell a crossdresser immediately, but in truth, I would be more than satisfied with acceptance.

After all, I am not a GG. Neither I nor any of us will ever be a real GG. Even if someone were to have SRS, they still can never be a GG.

If we can't be GGs, then why don't we just push for acceptance of who and what we are. That is real. We really are men in dresses. We may have a lot more feminine qualities, traits and hormones that the average male, but we are still GMs.

When we try to "pass", we are really "pretending" to be women. But when all we need is acceptance, then it doesn't matter if we can't "pass". Its all right to just be accepted.

Does any of this make any sense ?

JoAnne Wheeler

[Ashlie Marie]

this is a good one.. I hope that in this day in age we are all accepted, but Passing is another story. I know that not everyone follows that never out a TG person, but it happens. In my mind passing to me is being called miss, or dear, having a guy hold a door open for me. I might not have passed to them and they might have read me like a book. but in the months I have been out I have yet to have a "outting" or a confertation, so happy about that. Also since I belive that the word Crossdresser is so silly, we are all transgendered, and that is it. and how is the girl in the store or at a resturant going to know if we are transisioned or whatever. but I have to agree with you Charlene. It is kewl to be "on the other side of the fence" to have random girls and ladies smile to u while they pass by or a sales lady offer to hold clothes for you. or one thing I found odd was that in the bathrooms while you are washing your hands, and freshing up woman and girls just start talking to you lol. its kewl.

hugs,

Ashlie

[tricia_uktv]

I'm never sure about the passing bit. I suspect we will always be read. I think that acceptance is most important and have found, to my surprise, how many people accept me for what I am (I know what I am). Its nice to pass as well though, last weekend a guy was inspecting my ticket on the tram and just said "thanks love" and walked off. I felt great!

[dilane]

Yes, that is always something in the back of my mind in close interactions.

I've had enough experience that I don't think or worry about it when just walking around or shopping.

When dealing with people, I nearly always smile, and my femme voice is fine, and that has a way of breaking the ice, even if I'm having a bad hair (or face) day.

If you're the slightest bit uncomfortable, the observant women of the world (and women are generally quite good at reading faces and minds), will suss you out in an instant. Just the way you meet another GG's eyes as she momentarily checks you out can communicate volumes. Typical GG etiquette in this situation is to meet her eyes for a second and give a little femme smile, while being confident. If you're nervous, it will show up in your face, and you'll be put under further scrutiny.

If a young lady checks me out, sees that I'm older (no competition), and quickly returns to what she was doing, I generally assume that I passed.
(I should add that out and about trannys are rare in L.A. so Tranny-dar is normally disabled)

I learned the importance of the quick smile-back years ago when one woman in a group of young people checked me out and looked me in the eyes. I locked on her with my eyes, in the way a man does, without smiling, and her face changed to astonishment as she read me and she excitedly said to me: "Well Helllllooooo there!", then told her friends that that was a guy. On the bright side, a couple of them said "No way!" :)

The main way I know or suspect I've been read these days is when the gal at Starbucks or Coffee Bean remembers my order after just one visit, or the waitress my favorite drink :). Now it could just be because I'm so friendly and attractive, right???

[Karren H]

I just assume everyone knows I'm crossdressing and go about my business and everyone always treats me nicely...

[Petra Bellejambes]

I just assume everyone knows I'm crossdressing and go about my business and everyone always treats me nicely...

I go with Karen on this. Anyone who takes a close look will read 95% of us. And it just doesn't matter. Smile. People are nice. And you probably have better legs....

[victoriamwilliams1]

In reality it is more about on if you feeling confident about yourself and not showing any signs that you are uncomfortable while out. I have seen many girls out even one walking in a crowded mall in Ohio and even tough everyone knew she was not a she and some people pointed but for the most part everyone just did the double take and kept on about their business. I wrote about this too last year.


http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79142

[jillleanne]

Hmmm, well Ashlie said it right. For me, I don't get concerned about being read, but rather, being treated as whomever I present myself as, i.e., male or female. I like, " Hello ladies" when en femme, and ," Hi folks" when in drab in restaurants for instance. We were in Applebees the other day and it was, ""What would you ladies like to drink to start you off?" That's what I call acceptance. I really don't care if she read me or not but I doubt she did, nor did all the women and men around us which made the enviroment natural for me.

[Beth785]

For all of the stores I go to, all of the sales people are all super friendly. I have not been treated any differently from if I was a true female. That includes personal stores like Lane Bryant, Torrid and the Dress Barn to impersonal stores like Target and Wally World. I had the check out girl (18-20 maybe?) at Target comment on how she liked my barrets ($3 from Walmart). I know they can read me just fine, but never has a single one of them ever made me feel like less of a person.

So, whether I'm passing or they are accepting, the result is still the same.

[joann07]

I've been to a lot of places and no matter where I go I am treated like a lady.
I don't really think about whether I'm read or not because I am confident that I conduct and present myself appropriately.
People are more surprised when they realize I'm a guy rather than them reading me. These occurences are rare, but no matter the outcome I'm still treated with courtesy and respect.

Hugs!

[Marissa]

"because i'm confident"

At the hotel i stayed at this weekend, the gay male attendent gave me the rundown on the goings on in the gay/lez area as i was in drab. I was uncertain on how i would be taken by the locals and those entering the hotel. would they be insulted or give me strange looks????

anyway, his final words were, dress as you want and the key is be 'confident', and the let the rest of the world worry about themselves.

so as i came down the hallway and got my first looks, i smiled and whispered hi..and just kept on going..most smiled back..some did the double take.

but my best moment was having the GG attendent who was confused on my wanting to visit sue ellens since i seemed to be so straight, that was our first conversation the night before. she didn't get the chance to see me dressed. So when i appeared before her the next afternoon, i was so melted by the look on her face.. acceptance???? oh yes... and that made my weekend well worth it.. she had me spin around and then followed with very nice comments for putting it all together (no not passing..just looking nice).

later i gave her a big thank you for that..

[Rachel Morley]

I felt like I was passing and I guess it really doesn't matter other than I really want to know :D

To my mind it doesn't really matter either, although like you I am curious as to what people are really thinking. My en femme trips in public places sound just like yours. Unbelievably, rarely do I feel like I get a second look, (if they are looking at me it must be after I've gone by them as I watch their eyes) in fact it's rather un-nerving sometimes as I think to myself "what gives? ... surely they can tell?" I'm sure they must do but they treat me as if they don't.

Take last weekend or example. Myself, my wife, and a TS friend were standing in line at a Taco Bell. There was a ton of people in front of us including a guy with 5 "soccer dressed" kids being served, plus a couple of older "red neck looking" guys immediately front of us and a mixed group (guys and gals) of 4 young African American teens behind us. I felt like I was in the "lion's den" .... it all seemed "up close and personal", and I was looking to see who was looking at me .... no one seemed to look at me any more than what they would have done had I have been there in boy mode, that's to say it felt the same to me and I was watching who was looking at mevand who wasn't. I'm like you .... I can't tell if they are accepting me as being different or that I'm passing. :strugglin: I guess I mut be "close enough" :D

[Ralph]

We really are men in dresses. We may have a lot more feminine qualities, traits and hormones that the average male, but we are still GMs.
snipped for brevity
Does any of this make any sense ?


Yes! I have tried to say the same thing, but when I do it I only manage to sound arrogant and condescending. Hopefully your message will raise consciousness where mine just gets me scolded. Acceptance as crossdressing men should be our primary goal, not just something to settle for if we can't pass!

ralph

[BWOemerger]

I have really enjoyed all of the posts. I really do understand that acceptance is all that we can really hope for (I am 6'4") but I will always wonder and want to know. It is just part of who I am.
I have always wanted to be a girl and the other day was the closest that I have ever came. I also really do know and understand that I will never be able to be a girl. I usually am ok with that, so these excursions are really needed. Thanks for all of your comments

[sarahNZ]

sounds like you had your makeup just right:D

I don't suppose it realy matters if you pass or are plain old accepted, I would be happy with accepted:)

[Hope]

I have to say that the vast majority of these experiences have really given me hope. At 6'2" my chances of actually passing are slim, even on a good day. It sounds to me like what a lot of you have been experiencing is being accepted not as a male wearing a dress, but as a person interacting in the world as a female, regardless of what reproductive organs you may be packing.

All the talk about confidence leads me to believe that people are accepting you as female, because that is the way you present yourself, and the way you behave - not because they are unaware of reality. That opens up a world of possibilities, and a world of hope for those of us trapped in obviously male bodies.

That just might change my entire outlook and plans for going out en Femme!

Thank you.

[Marshchild]

I'm another one who very much doubts that he passes, mainly because I seldom try to (on the occasions when I do pass, it's usually by accident, and very often when I'm not wearing anything feminine at all, so go figure that out!). Still, I do my utmost to look as good as I can in whatever it is I'm wearing (I like to try in my own small way to remove all the negative connotations the label "man in a dress" has), and to come across (and feel!) as confident and relaxed as I can. As others have found in their own respective situations, it's an approach that seems to work for me, and I always get a buzz afterwards knowing I had the balls (if you'll pardon the irony!) to just go out there, and wear something nice, comfortable and eye-catching. One interesting thing I have noticed is that when I am dressed in something a little on the femme side, a lot of guys I know become physically affectionate towards me. It's nothing sordid - they just seem to feel comfortable touching me - and I'd have to say I like it.

[Lisa Golightly]

At 6'2" my chances of actually passing are slim, even on a good day.

I used to be 6' 1"... Now I'm only 5' 11" No-one quite knows where the two inches went, but it doesn't really make a huge difference... lol... Suffice to say I know a lot of GG's as tall or taller. Xenaesque... I like to think. :)

I don't think height is a real issue, more how you present yourself body language-wise... Not too girly, because I'd look positively daft, not like a linebacker obviously... I go for slow and graceful... Statuesque (Except I'm clumsy and seem to drop everything... awwww) :)

I still get taken for a boy some days, which is upsetting, but hey... apart from lifting my top in public to dispute the fact... what can you do?

I'd rather be accepted than pass any day... Passing has an element of being invisible to the masses which isn't for me... I'd rather be quirky, scatty, loveable and... well... accepted :)

[Hope]

Ok - Marshchild, BEST AVITAR EVER.

Oh and Lisa - you rock, even if you are just blowing warm air up my skirt - you still rock.

[Lisa Golightly]

Oh and Lisa - you rock, even if you are just blowing warm air up my skirt - you still rock.

lol.. gosh...I don't quite know what that means... :)

[Angie G]

That's great hun glad you enjoyed it.:hugs:
Angie

[Legs]

First:

The "real" test for being outed is look at the expression on younger faces, the younger the better, kids are brutally honest when it comes to things like this. (And if you don't think they notice, THINK AGAIN).

Second:

Listen to see if they start asking their parents about you.
Or young teens start whispering to each other.

An example: Last summer my wife and I spent a few days with our oldest son and our grandchildren, I do not wear men's tennis shoes, the really cheap white women's tennis shoes are so much more comfortable and being made of canvas versus leather my feet do not sweat and ummm smell.

Anyway the very first day our youngest grandson got home from school he asked his mother why I was wearing grandmas shoes, and other than that I was in total drab.

Now like everyone else I am constantly wondering when I am out and about in femme, (even though I have been out for close to 2 years now and have had many people tell me I am more than passable).

Yes it does feel great to have someone hold a door or call you Ma'am, and so on, shoot last summer before my hair really grew back out that much I was in a Wally world wearing cut off jeans, a white tee shirt, and my tennis shoes, anyway I need to use the restroom and was in the back of the store, and as I was walking down the aisle the janitor looked me in the eye and said, "Sorry Ma'am I just cleaned the ladies room, you will have to use the one in front", now mind you, I had zero makeup on, no nails, no jewelry, and had not yet shaven that day, (though my facial hair takes like forever to grow long enough to really see it).

I have been out to too many stores, restaurants, and every other place in both drab and enfemme and had too many people call me Ma'am, or call my wife and I ladies, hold doors, ect., that I can tell you, if you are putting forth any effort at all then you are not just being accepted.

My neighbor and I went out shopping yesterday, (first time he and I had gone out with me dressed), and he made it a point to kinda hang back and watch how other people reacted to me, he has told me since the first time he saw me dressed that I was passable and he would not have known it was me if I had not told him, but yesterday he wanted to confirm his thoughts.

On the way home he said I did in fact turn heads, but it was only guys looking at my ass, lol, and I had on chick jeans, a yellow sweater, and 3" heels, he made the comment that other than the men checking me out, nobody gave me a second look, pointed, or whispered behind my back, and having looked at all the other women in the store that I looked better than about 75% of what he saw.

Yes I did interact with many people in the store, either waiting for someone to move their carts out of the isle or asking someone to excuse me so I could get thru, and at one point I came up on a small girl maybe 8 or 9 who had gotten sick and her mother was trying to find a tissue or something in her purse, but had none, so I stopped and handed her some tissue from my purse, the mother cleaned the girl's face and told her to wait there while she went to get someone to clean up the mess, she looked at me and said would you mind waiting here with her while I go, I said I would, while she was gone her daughter looked at me and said thank you ma'am, and when her mother returned with the clerk they both thanked me.

So you see even in the closest encounters if you are putting forth the effort and doing your best, there really is nothing to be concerned about.

Sorry for the long post.

Get out there and have fun girls, it is unreal.

Huggggggggggggggs
Samantha

[tamarav]

I am not sure how to respond to this post but here is my two cents worth.

For the past few years I have quit worrying about the passing vs acceptance issue, I just do my business and move on. I have however, legitimized my presence in female clothing by becoming a hairstylist who also does makeup.

When I go anyplace now I am prepared to be stopped and talked to by any number of people. I carry my business cards and am happy to discuss why I dress like I do but it rarely happens anymore. Now most of the people that stop me are horny guys. Don't get me wrong, I love the attention, but guys can be so unfocused.

I work openly in a salon where many walk-ins stroll in for a haircut and encounter me. Some are so passe that they act like they meet CDs every day and this is no big deal, while others go out of their way to discuss every nuance of my dress.

My biggest thing is being confident and not acting like a victim. Act like you know what you are doing, head up and smiling and virtually no one messes with you, except the aforementioned guys. I feel that I am representing CDs the best I can and I want observers to realize that we are strong, confident people, well most of us...

Look at that, she didn't post any pictures of herself again, like she always does

[Legs]

I am not sure how to respond to this post but here is my two cents worth.

For the past few years I have quit worrying about the passing vs acceptance issue, I just do my business and move on. I have however, legitimized my presence in female clothing by becoming a hairstylist who also does makeup.

When I go anyplace now I am prepared to be stopped and talked to by any number of people. I carry my business cards and am happy to discuss why I dress like I do but it rarely happens anymore. Now most of the people that stop me are horny guys. Don't get me wrong, I love the attention, but guys can be so unfocused.

I work openly in a salon where many walk-ins stroll in for a haircut and encounter me. Some are so passe that they act like they meet CDs every day and this is no big deal, while others go out of their way to discuss every nuance of my dress.

My biggest thing is being confident and not acting like a victim. Act like you know what you are doing, head up and smiling and virtually no one messes with you, except the aforementioned guys. I feel that I am representing CDs the best I can and I want observers to realize that we are strong, confident people, well most of us...

Look at that, she didn't post any pictures of herself again, like she always does

Tamara,

Great for you girl.

If more girls would just give it a try and venture out they would find the fear is nothing to be so worried about.

BTW, where do you find all these unfocused male types that want to "chat" with you ..giggles.

All I get are the ones that trip all over themselves trying to get a second look.

Huggggggggggggs
Samantha

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

My question is when you are read but accepted are you treated different than if you were passing or in drab. I felt like I was passing and I guess it really doesn't matter other than I really want to know :D
I always try my hardest to be as passable as I can be, but I'm a realist. I know that sometimes I pass and sometimes I don't.

Regardless (and a lot of the time I don't know which it is), I usually stay in character. I am a female, I have every right to be treated as one. If I suspect that someone has read me, I ignore it, and continue being the woman that I am. Sometimes, that causes them to visibly change attitude in a way that suggests that they've realised that they were wrong when they thought that I was a CD. :happy:

Regardless of whether I pass or I'm accepted while not passing, while I behave as a female, I get treated as one. If I choose to drop out of character while talking to someone, then and only then do I sometimes find that I'm treated as a male.

Alice

[marla01]

The way I look at it is this:

Some of us pass some of the time, whe we don't have a bad hair day. I'm in this category, and I must admit I'm often in a quandary about whether to out myself. I have at moments assumed that the other person has read me, when in fact they're still taking me for a woman. Any suggestions what the protocol is here??? Are there occasions when you should actually say, "Excuse me, haven't you noticed that I'm a guy in drag?"


I have two rules about this. On most occasions, I neither lie or try to hide the fact that my body is male, but at the same time I don't feel the need to declair it either.

The exception to this is when a guy (or girl) is hitting on me. Then I think it is necessary to directly point out that my body is an outie. (BTW, I'm not a guy in drag, I'm just a woman who has a male body).

Marla

[MsJanessa]

I would rather be accepted as a beautiful CD than pass as a drab gg---and I would rather have acceptance than "pass"---I have rarely had a problem going out in public---only once or twice and then it was because I was in an area where it was risky to be.

[vspowers]

I have to say that the vast majority of these experiences have really given me hope. At 6'2" my chances of actually passing are slim, even on a good day..

I am also 6'2", but I remember the shock of actually passing while waiting for a table at a steakhouse. It was Halloween, it was dim and I hadn't spoken yet. I knew I had been passing, because when I spoke, the hostess jumped.

[Hope]

I am also 6'2", but I remember the shock of actually passing while waiting for a table at a steakhouse. It was Halloween, it was dim and I hadn't spoken yet. I knew I had been passing, because when I spoke, the hostess jumped.

Yah - I'm worried about that one too... because even when I was in 7th grade, people kept pointing out how deep my voice was - and it hasn't gone back up.

But this thread is truly helpful.

[Hope]

My biggest thing is being confident and not acting like a victim. Act like you know what you are doing, head up and smiling and virtually no one messes with you, except the aforementioned guys.

Easy for you to say - you are not only gorgeous, but very experienced. Acting like you know what you are doing is a bit more difficult when you, well, don't.

Experience is of course what you get immediately after you needed it.

[Nicki B]

I go with Karen on this. Anyone who takes a close look will read 95% of us. And it just doesn't matter.

Actually, I think it does - if they don't know we're trans, then the world will never improve for all of us, whether we 'pass' sometimes or not?


Acceptance as crossdressing men should be our primary goal, not just something to settle for if we can't pass!

Ralph, I'll agree with you partly - but please, just remember that some of us aren't men (we may not be genetic women, but we need to develop understanding that there is more than just a binary possible)? :)


I have to say that the vast majority of these experiences have really given me hope. At 6'2" my chances of actually passing are slim, even on a good day. It sounds to me like what a lot of you have been experiencing is being accepted not as a male wearing a dress, but as a person interacting in the world as a female, regardless of what reproductive organs you may be packing.

That would be my everyday experience - and I'm 6'3", plus heels? Have a look in my album..

[Stefanie_Adams]

This is a very interesting thread and I really don't have a whole lot to offer. I have never been out enfemme before meaning wearing makeup or a dress, but most all the time I do dress as androgynous as possible. I wear my hair long and styled and my ears are pierced.

There have been times when I've gotten Ma'am. a couple times out dining with my wife the waitress came up and asked what can I get you ladies and in the same restaurant when we paid our check the gentleman at the register made the statement was everything alright today ladies. My wife laughed and said look again and his comment was "I just wanted to be politically correct" I loved it of course so I guess he was accepting how I wanted to present? my two cents. one of these days I will get out with the ladies the way I want.
Stefanie

[Beth-Lock]

I think I am being accepted now when I am wearing pants, but not necessarily if wearing a skirt. In the case of a skirt, I seem to have to pass, or I get all manner of upsetting reactions from others. For example, last week I went to Walmart to buy a new pair of women's denim pants, and I got one 'sir,' one 'mam' and one sales assistant telling another that there was one lady in the dressing rooms, (me). So two out of three is not a total disaster. I guess I can live with that.

[linnea]

It's nice to be accepted whether we are passing or not. I would say, judging by your avatar, that you looked great and were passing just fine.