Biochemistry and physiology to get that girlish new you??

[Shy Charlotte]

Was just sitting here pondering how many of us have the typical male physique... namely a beer gut, broad shoulders, narrow hips, etc etc. To those of you familiar with hormone therapy, could it be possible to get that girlish figure if you went on some sort of Atkins diet to clear out alot of the fat, and then when the gut's coming back, start taking estrogen so it gets reassigned to more feminine areas of the body? Not sure if it's even safe, definitely not FDA approved, but just speaking theoretically.... I know that I've gone on diet after diet, and people tell me that I don't LOOK like I weigh 180-190 (probably dense bones, or a dense skull), but was wondering if I could do something useful for my fem self while on the rebound.

Figured this would be the right crowd to ask, since it seems like although we do represent a fairly normal cross-section of the population, it also seems that at least everyone contributing seems to have above normal intelligence level (mine's about a 154, I'm sure Jenny's and alot of members score higher). Hmm, come to think of it, perhaps there is a correlation between cross-dressing and high intelligence, in the same way there seems to be one between intelligence and clinical depression? I was talking with Foxyblair once, and she mentioned that it may be because as CD's we access both sides of the brain more frequently, rather than females who typically use the right hemisphere (artistic), and males with the left (logic). Hmm, possible idea for another thread....?

[Elinor]

BEER GUT yes I'm afraid so. What can I do. Stop watching TV, being on the PC and get out doors for a walk at least. I'm trying to change my lifestyle slowly. Watching what I eat or drink. What a girl has to do to take care of her figure.

[ChristineRenee]

Was just sitting here pondering how many of us have the typical male physique... namely a beer gut, broad shoulders, narrow hips, etc etc. To those of you familiar with hormone therapy, could it be possible to get that girlish figure if you went on some sort of Atkins diet to clear out alot of the fat, and then when the gut's coming back, start taking estrogen so it gets reassigned to more feminine areas of the body? Not sure if it's even safe, definitely not FDA approved, but just speaking theoretically.... I know that I've gone on diet after diet, and people tell me that I don't LOOK like I weigh 180-190 (probably dense bones, or a dense skull), but was wondering if I could do something useful for my fem self while on the rebound.

Figured this would be the right crowd to ask, since it seems like although we do represent a fairly normal cross-section of the population, it also seems that at least everyone contributing seems to have above normal intelligence level (mine's about a 154, I'm sure Jenny's and alot of members score higher). Hmm, come to think of it, perhaps there is a correlation between cross-dressing and high intelligence, in the same way there seems to be one between intelligence and clinical depression? I was talking with Foxyblair once, and she mentioned that it may be because as CD's we access both sides of the brain more frequently, rather than females who typically use the right hemisphere (artistic), and males with the left (logic). Hmm, possible idea for another thread....?I'm sure hoping so Charlotte. I haven't been on hormone therapy for very long now, but I have already seen some noticeable results. My breasts are growing and my hips are starting to round out too. My skin, which was rather soft and smooth anyway is getting even softer and smoother now. I swear my hair is getting more manageable with some luster as well. I weigh about 180 and am 5' 7". One of the reasons I think the breast development has been slow is that I had always had a concave chest...so I didn't just start from 0, I actually started with a significant negative there. I have a beer gut too but it isn't overly noticeable and if I could just discipline myself to lose 10-15 pounds while on this hormone therapy, I think I could maybe get my tummy flattened out again. I never weighed much when I was younger, and was always skinny with no butt at all. That has all changed now. I got more weight and I do gots BOOTY now too! I have been on Premarin for over a year now and for the past few months have been on Spironolactone and recently got off that to go on the more powerful anti-androgen Androcur. You are not supposed to take both at the same time. I have been taking the Androcur for about a month now and hoping my woman doctor will put me in a year's Rx like she did with the Premarin and Spironolactone. I'm also very happy to report gals...no side effects whatsoever thus far and I finally feel I'm on the right path to getting to the results I want. Taking it nice and easy and slow. I fully expect to see significant results after a year, and certainly after two years, of faithfully taking these powerful meds.

Will keep you girlz updated on my progress as things progress!

Peace & Love,

Christine 58V8

[Julie]

In male-to-female transsexuals, there is no mode of treatment to revert earlier effects of androgens on the skeleton. The greater height, the shape of the jaws, the size and shape of the hands and feet, and the narrow width of the pelvis can not be redressed once they have reached their final size at the end of puberty.
Annihilation of the male pattern is possible for a number of secondary sex characteristics but only to a limited extent. Reduction of androgen-dependent hair growth with cyproterone acetate and ethinyl estradiol is fairly effective on the trunk and the limbs, but has a very limited success on the face. The body hair does not disappear but following suppression of androgen-dependent growth, the hair becomes less coarse and less visible, resembling the vellus hair on the female body in certain body regions. If hairlessness of the body is desired, only electrolysis or laser treatments is effective. Waxing and shaving can result in temporary hairlessness, which can be prolonged by the decrease in hair growth associated with estrogen and antiandrogen treatment. The beard hairs also become thinner and softer after several years of hormone use. Unfortunately, once the beard growth has fully developed and regular shaving is necessary, the result of antiandrogens alone is cosmetically unacceptable. Only electrolysis or laser is effective in eliminating beard growth. In a few patients who had started treatment before developing visible hair growth, electrolysis could be avoided. After starting hormone treatment, male type scalp hair loss (masculine alopecia) ceases. Re-growth of scalp hair on bald areas is incomplete and of the vellus type. Hairstyle, hair implants or artificial hair techniques ("weaving," partial wigs) can successfully mask the masculine alopecia while hormones can at best make a minor contribution.

Penis length is not reduced by hormones, but due to its almost continuous flaccid state and an increase in lower abdominal fat, may appear reduced. Spontaneous erections are suppressed within 3 months but during erotic arousal erections still occur in the majority of patients, evidencing the relative androgen-independence of this type of erection. Testicular volume is reduced by 25% within the first year of hormone use. This reduction is appreciated as a sign of progress and also makes hiding of the male genitals easier.

Induction of female characteristics is quite variable. In the initial phase of estrogen therapy subareolar nodules, which can be painful, are common. The breast size can be quantified by measuring the maximum hemicircumference over the nipple with a flexible ruler (either in the supine position or sitting). The increase in breast size evolves gradually with often periods of growth and periods of apparent standstill. The mean hemicircumference after 1 year is 10 cm in the supine position and 14 cm in the sitting position (the latter varies from 4 to 22 cm) and reaches its maximum after 18 to 24 months. In most patients the mean value is 18 cm, but it can vary from 4 to 28 cm. For comparison: in biological females it varies from 12 to 36 cm with a mean of 22 cm. The values in male-to-female transsexuals are several centimeters less than in biological women. Moreover, the width of the male thorax is in general larger than that of the female thorax. Consequently, the proportional effect is judged as unsatisfactory by almost 50% of the male-to-female transsexual subjects. The majority of those unsatisfied requests surgical breast implants. In more than 50% of the male-to-female transsexuals, the estrogen-induced breast size is judged as satisfactory by the transsexual subject herself, obviating breast surgery. In a small number of subjects unilateral or bilateral subcutaneous mastectomy has been performed because of pubertal gynecomastia. The hormonal effect on operated breasts is nil.

In male-to-female transsexuals, estrogens do not affect the pitch of the voice, and a low voice can be a great handicap. Speech therapy is necessary to achieve a more feminine vocal range. Vocalcord surgery does not obviate the need for speech therapy in almost all cases, but the resulting higher pitched voice facilitates a female public presentation.

The subcutaneous and intra-abdominal fat distribution is sex steroid-dependent. Males preferentially accumulate fat in the upper abdomen ("apples") and females around the hips ("pears"). Estrogen treatment results generally in more fat around the hips but this is not the rule and can vary largely. Skeletal structures like jaws, size of hands and form of the pelvis do not change with the estrogen and/or antiandrogen treatment.

Not infrequently male-to-female transsexuals complain of a dry skin and fragile nails. This is a consequence of the reduction in sebaceous gland activity following antiandrogen treatment. Avoidance of detergents and application of ointment is mostly helpful.

For more information go to TransgenderCare.Com (http://www.transgendercare.com/default.asp)

My personal experience:
I have had three episodes with hormones. The first was birth control pills where I realized a slight change in nipple and areola shape and size. The timefame was less than 2 months and the lasting effect were unnoticable. The second was herbals which were just a waste of money while downing countless pills. Not recommended by this subject. The third was Estraderm patches which I got from overseas by mail order. I did three months on then off one month then two months on again. I realized some breast growth as well as nipple and areola shape and size changes. I also realized some added fat in the upper thighs as well as some weight gain (maybe 5 pounds). The last time I wore a patch was Sept. of 2001. The effects gained are permanent but do not prevent me from swimming. Certain positions, like bending over, will emphasize my breast growth so I just stand straighter and avoid bending over w/o a shirt. A tight shirt would show the "pointy" effect of breast, nipple and areola changes I got from the Estraderm patches. Since patches eliminate liver exposure they are the best choice if you have no problems with skin irritation.

The most profound effect was the peace of mind I experienced while on the patch. Never in my life had I felt so peaceful and calm inside. I knew I couldn't continue because it would mean changing my entire life and I wasn't ready to do that. I also knew I would never be happy because of my image of what I would want to look like and that would be a slender female. My bone structure wouldn't allow it.

For the record I did this w/o a doctor's care and when I discovered the possible side effects it just added to my resolve to stop. Now that I know what hormones can do I wouldn't recommend anyone doing it without being under a doctor's care.

Julie

[ChristineRenee]

In male-to-female transsexuals, there is no mode of treatment to revert earlier effects of androgens on the skeleton. The greater height, the shape of the jaws, the size and shape of the hands and feet, and the narrow width of the pelvis can not be redressed once they have reached their final size at the end of puberty.
Annihilation of the male pattern is possible for a number of secondary sex characteristics but only to a limited extent. Reduction of androgen-dependent hair growth with cyproterone acetate and ethinyl estradiol is fairly effective on the trunk and the limbs, but has a very limited success on the face. The body hair does not disappear but following suppression of androgen-dependent growth, the hair becomes less coarse and less visible, resembling the vellus hair on the female body in certain body regions. If hairlessness of the body is desired, only electrolysis or laser treatments is effective. Waxing and shaving can result in temporary hairlessness, which can be prolonged by the decrease in hair growth associated with estrogen and antiandrogen treatment. The beard hairs also become thinner and softer after several years of hormone use. Unfortunately, once the beard growth has fully developed and regular shaving is necessary, the result of antiandrogens alone is cosmetically unacceptable. Only electrolysis or laser is effective in eliminating beard growth. In a few patients who had started treatment before developing visible hair growth, electrolysis could be avoided. After starting hormone treatment, male type scalp hair loss (masculine alopecia) ceases. Re-growth of scalp hair on bald areas is incomplete and of the vellus type. Hairstyle, hair implants or artificial hair techniques ("weaving," partial wigs) can successfully mask the masculine alopecia while hormones can at best make a minor contribution.

Penis length is not reduced by hormones, but due to its almost continuous flaccid state and an increase in lower abdominal fat, may appear reduced. Spontaneous erections are suppressed within 3 months but during erotic arousal erections still occur in the majority of patients, evidencing the relative androgen-independence of this type of erection. Testicular volume is reduced by 25% within the first year of hormone use. This reduction is appreciated as a sign of progress and also makes hiding of the male genitals easier.

Induction of female characteristics is quite variable. In the initial phase of estrogen therapy subareolar nodules, which can be painful, are common. The breast size can be quantified by measuring the maximum hemicircumference over the nipple with a flexible ruler (either in the supine position or sitting). The increase in breast size evolves gradually with often periods of growth and periods of apparent standstill. The mean hemicircumference after 1 year is 10 cm in the supine position and 14 cm in the sitting position (the latter varies from 4 to 22 cm) and reaches its maximum after 18 to 24 months. In most patients the mean value is 18 cm, but it can vary from 4 to 28 cm. For comparison: in biological females it varies from 12 to 36 cm with a mean of 22 cm. The values in male-to-female transsexuals are several centimeters less than in biological women. Moreover, the width of the male thorax is in general larger than that of the female thorax. Consequently, the proportional effect is judged as unsatisfactory by almost 50% of the male-to-female transsexual subjects. The majority of those unsatisfied requests surgical breast implants. In more than 50% of the male-to-female transsexuals, the estrogen-induced breast size is judged as satisfactory by the transsexual subject herself, obviating breast surgery. In a small number of subjects unilateral or bilateral subcutaneous mastectomy has been performed because of pubertal gynecomastia. The hormonal effect on operated breasts is nil.

In male-to-female transsexuals, estrogens do not affect the pitch of the voice, and a low voice can be a great handicap. Speech therapy is necessary to achieve a more feminine vocal range. Vocalcord surgery does not obviate the need for speech therapy in almost all cases, but the resulting higher pitched voice facilitates a female public presentation.

The subcutaneous and intra-abdominal fat distribution is sex steroid-dependent. Males preferentially accumulate fat in the upper abdomen ("apples") and females around the hips ("pears"). Estrogen treatment results generally in more fat around the hips but this is not the rule and can vary largely. Skeletal structures like jaws, size of hands and form of the pelvis do not change with the estrogen and/or antiandrogen treatment.

Not infrequently male-to-female transsexuals complain of a dry skin and fragile nails. This is a consequence of the reduction in sebaceous gland activity following antiandrogen treatment. Avoidance of detergents and application of ointment is mostly helpful.

For more information go to TransgenderCare.Com (http://www.transgendercare.com/default.asp)

My personal experience:
I have had three episodes with hormones. The first was birth control pills where I realized a slight change in nipple and areola shape and size. The timefame was less than 2 months and the lasting effect were unnoticable. The second was herbals which were just a waste of money while downing countless pills. Not recommended by this subject. The third was Estraderm patches which I got from overseas by mail order. I did three months on then off one month then two months on again. I realized some breast growth as well as nipple and areola shape and size changes. I also realized some added fat in the upper thighs as well as some weight gain (maybe 5 pounds). The last time I wore a patch was Sept. of 2001. The effects gained are permanent but do not prevent me from swimming. Certain positions, like bending over, will emphasize my breast growth so I just stand straighter and avoid bending over w/o a shirt. A tight shirt would show the "pointy" effect of breast, nipple and areola changes I got from the Estraderm patches. Since patches eliminate liver exposure they are the best choice if you have no problems with skin irritation.

The most profound effect was the peace of mind I experienced while on the patch. Never in my life had I felt so peaceful and calm inside. I knew I couldn't continue because it would mean changing my entire life and I wasn't ready to do that. I also knew I would never be happy because of my image of what I would want to look like and that would be a slender female. My bone structure wouldn't allow it.

For the record I did this w/o a doctor's care and when I discovered the possible side effects it just added to my resolve to stop. Now that I know what hormones can do I wouldn't recommend anyone doing it without being under a doctor's care.

JulieThanks Julie. You spoke volumes and the most important is not to do this without being under a doctor's care like I am.

So...be safe out there girlz.

Peace & Love,

Christine58V8

[foxyblair]

I think you right shy,,Cders are an intelligent bunch. but I got you beat, I got a 160. Wait, no, that was my SAT score, didnt even get my name right.

boxyflair.

[Wen4cd]

perhaps there is a correlation between cross-dressing and high intelligence, in the same way there seems to be one between intelligence and clinical depression?

Or maybe it's a triangle? I've tested high before, I think 149 last time. But then, depression comes and goes. I think the two hemispheres are at war in my head sometimes. There's some kind of pseudo-logical argument that hinders me from reaching (or even having) goals. I can't see what it is, but I hear and feel it, as if certain concepts and arguments and especially options are immediately tossed out (of consideration) by some internal screening method, before I ever get a chance to even consider them. Then it seems like another process keeps me from remembering what they even were, or why they were rejected from consideration, if that makes any sense. (Because it doesn't now, looking at it.)

Add to that the fact that I'm left-handed, and I'm totally screwed. :)

Oh well,

Beddie-bye time night all!

Wen

[foxyblair]

Does anyone know if taking hormones causes liver, kidney damage. I might of read that somewhere, I think that is the case with steriods. Seems everything fun does. I would love to have an even more curvasious figure, but my organs dont need any more toxins at the moment. Serious post this time, so if any of yall can help. blair.

[Shy Charlotte]

I think I read somewhere that if you take female hormone replacement therapy, and make sure to get some sort of doctor's supervision, it should be fairly safe. However, I also read that your chance of stroke doubles I think. Don't quote me on this though, just something I seem to recall reading once.