Isn't self medicating always guessing ? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Jengurl1

02-28-2009, 05:35 PM

I can understand why someone wouldn't want to tell a person to take hormones especially a certain amount, they could die. Nobody wants that.

There are two types of gurls that self medicate, those that aren't seeing a doctor and minds can be changed and those that aren't that can't. You may believe someone can always change their mind but some will and some won't, that's a fact.
None of the information anywhere is right for everybody so a person can only look at what others are taking compare it all and make a choice. Thats never gonna be safe. I don't see how limiting these sources can help ? I don't think its gonna make people stop taking hormones, for me that's absolutely true. What I think is, its gonna leave people less informed and I think that's wrong.

I'm not expecting anyone to agree, just understand.

Anyways I'm good! I hear theres a dozen trannies on yahoo that will tell you anything, their crackheads but its better than a shot in the dark.

I'll post the link later :)

Nicki B

02-28-2009, 06:17 PM

None of the information anywhere is right for everybody so a person can only look at what others are taking compare it all and make a choice. Thats never gonna be safe. I don't see how limiting these sources can help ? I don't think its gonna make people stop taking hormones, for me that's absolutely true. What I think is, its gonna leave people less informed and I think that's wrong.

Jen, I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make?

Would it it be proper, for example, for people suffering from cancer to tell others what drugs they'd decided to take, so others wouldn't need to go to a doctor either? And if they did, would it be proper to hold them responsible for the results?

~Kelly~

02-28-2009, 06:29 PM

None of the information anywhere is right for everybody so a person can only look at what others are taking compare it all and make a choice. Thats never gonna be safe. .........
..... I hear theres a dozen trannies on yahoo that will tell you anything, their crackheads but its better than a shot in the dark.

I'll post the link later :)

First of all, I know the group you are referring to and I was in fact a member of that group for a while (to gain information....not to contribute information). The issue I have with self medicating is that it IS just guessing. You are taking someone else's experiences and making them your own. The problem lies in the fact that no two people are the same. What may be safe for one person to take could cause another person's liver to shut down completely. The thing is you just don't know. That is where the doctors come in with blood work. You may be saying, "why do I need the doctor? why not just get blood work done?". Well, how accurately can you read and interpret the results of your blood work? Do you know what in your medical history could account for certain numbers being higher or lower than normal? Do you know how a totally unrelated condition can skew the numbers that you are seeing? Do you know the specific effect of how the hormones influence these numbers? What is the mechanism that medicines use to achieve the desired results? If you know the answers to all these questions, then you may not need the doctor. However, that is the reason doctors get paid as much as they do. They HAVE to know this stuff. If it was simply as easy as going to an internet "knowledge base" and comparing one persons dosage to another person's dosage, there would be no need for doctors at all much less for them to be as trained and in demand as they are.

But like you said at the very beginning... some people just won't change their mind. That is TOTALLY me. I will ALWAYS push for people to go the safe route through a doctor.

Sharon

02-28-2009, 06:35 PM

I'm assuming you are referring to the stickie at the top of the page. http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101634 If so, what you write only reinforces the reasons for the "no dosage" policy.

Even doctors "guess," as educated a guess as it may be, at initial dosages when they prescribe a treatment. They rely on their personal experience, the experience of other doctors, and written literature. This applies to any drug by the way. But these doctors are also there to follow up on how the drugs are performing on you and seeing how they are affecting your body.

I myself have had my med dosages adjusted several times in the two-some years I have been on them, especially in the first months. It means the world to me that I am on hormone therapy, but the last thing I want to happen is being too sick or disabled to enjoy my life.

Jengurl1

02-28-2009, 06:45 PM

Jen, I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make?

Would it it be proper, for example, for people suffering from cancer to tell others what drugs they'd decided to take, so others wouldn't need to go to a doctor either? And if they did, would it be proper to hold them responsible for the results?

Hello,

Influencing people to not see a doctor is probably always wrong. At the same time if someone is not gonna see a doctor anyways and was gonna die from lack of it that would be different.

I'm not saying people should give prescriptions, that involves a different kind of responsibility than letting a person make up their own mind. If they did I guess that would depend on any claims they made.

Jengurl1

02-28-2009, 06:52 PM

First of all, I know the group you are referring to and I was in fact a member of that group for a while (to gain information....not to contribute information).

I'm sorry if you were offended, I've never met anyone from that group :love:

Lisa Golightly

02-28-2009, 06:58 PM

I think the site decision was right... If that is what this is about?... I think I'm tired because I'm rubbing my head a lot...

On the issue of self medicating it's a bit like that guy in Mortal Kombat who used to shout 'Choose your destiny'. There are plenty of people that'll tell you all you would need to know... but those doctors... they kind of tell you everything you really didn't want to hear... I think I almost fainted... lol... Hmmmm.

It would be irresponsible for this site to allow personal concoctions to influence the desperate and ill-informed. There would be a sense of culpability that a site like this that does so much good for so many really doesn't deserve.

Jengurl1

02-28-2009, 07:04 PM

I'm assuming you are referring to the stickie at the top of the page. http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101634 If so, what you write only reinforces the reasons for the "no dosage" policy.

I hope everyone goes to a doctor but if they don't and are in fact guessing, I hope they find plenty of information before the start medicating.

The stickie did give me a push.

I do self medicate and would prefer my chances taking what the majority of a thousand people were taking rather than reading a page from a doctor that said to take something else. I would also google each drug to find whatever else i could, its far from perfect I know.

Tizabet

02-28-2009, 07:04 PM

I kind of straddle that fence. I started out unsupervised. I'd had a breakdown both mentally and physically, and felt that I had to do SOMETHING, but at the time, had very limited funds. So I did "what I could".

I really don't recommend doing anything unsupervised, but I do understand that sometimes it at least feels like the only option available. And in that case, I can see part of Jen's point. It's important that if someone is going to do that, that they understand as much as they possibly can.

But Kelly says it well. An endocrinologist has been trained well. They understand how and why the medicines work. They understand what can happen if things get out of hand, and how to avoid that. I don't personally believe that means a normal person can't research and find these things out themselves, but from what I see around communities like this, they usually don't bother.

Before I began my stint of unsupervised hormones, I did A LOT of research. And made sure I felt confident in my understanding of exactly those points (though I likely missed something). And when I began, I was overly (if that's possible) cautious about everything. Frankly, I don't feel anyone should ever take any sort of medication (even supervised) if they don't know what it is and how it works. Do research. It's not hard.

The big problem with Jen's argument is that she's asking for the "minimum" amount of information to be easier to get to. This is a dangerous request. All the information anyone need is out there, and if they're not willing to dig for the basics, then they won't be willing to dig for the details either, which means they definitely won't be safe.

Be safe.

Sharon

02-28-2009, 07:17 PM

Jengurl1

02-28-2009, 07:17 PM

The big problem with Jen's argument is that she's asking for the "minimum" amount of information to be easier to get to. This is a dangerous request. All the information anyone need is out there, and if they're not willing to dig for the basics, then they won't be willing to dig for the details either, which means they definitely won't be safe.

Be safe.

I really like your point of view, gave me pause. :)

If that's all people are looking for than theres probably no help for them.

Jengurl1

02-28-2009, 07:24 PM

Even if you self-medicate, you can, and should, continue seeing a doctor and be completely open about what you are taking. They may not like that you are going this route, but they will still check you out and even suggest changes.

Thats fantastic advice, I am really nervous. I smoke a lot and have decided to stop hormones till I quit.

I read it was really bad to smoke and I won't say why but something made me paranoid.

Good thing they didn't censer the topic completely.

Sharon

02-28-2009, 07:29 PM

Good thing they didn't censer the topic completely.

I am "they." :)

GypsyKaren is "they" as well.

Jengurl1

02-28-2009, 07:35 PM

I am "they." :)

GypsyKaren is "they" as well.

You are defiantly not they.

They is I guess if anything a way of thinking

Jen :)

Jengurl1

02-28-2009, 07:37 PM

I read that wrong.

what does that imply ?

Tizabet

02-28-2009, 07:40 PM

"They" implies the administration.

Jengurl1

02-28-2009, 07:40 PM

That information might have been very helpful?

Jengurl1

02-28-2009, 07:49 PM

I am "they." :)

GypsyKaren is "they" as well.

Still not sure what you mean but I'm sure your trying to do what you think is best and theres nothing wrong with that.

Sharon

02-28-2009, 07:58 PM

That information might have been very helpful?

Still not sure what you mean but I'm sure your trying to do what you think is best and theres nothing wrong with that.

I rarely post as an administrator, but, rather, just another person who is going/has gone through the process of finding and embracing who I am. Are my opinions any less valid because of my paycheck?

Oops, wait a second, I don't get paid!

Anyway, let us return to the thread topic now, okay? If you would like to pursue this, feel free to contact me at any time. I can be quite nice if I try hard enough. :)

Karen564

02-28-2009, 10:01 PM

None of the information anywhere is right for everybody so a person can only look at what others are taking compare it all and make a choice.
That's the whole problem, how are you going to KNOW what is right for you??
If you do some digging here you will see such a wide range of meds and dosages that will make your head spin, so how are you going to sort through all that and figure out what you need? I mean really, you will have more information than you'll need, and it will still leave you just guessing.

This is exactly why administration does not want to see dosages given, and wants to encourage more girls to see a doctor for proper care & monitoring, that all.

Michele, Good point, now come to think of it, I think I'd rather watch some MP

Karen

Kaitlyn Michele

02-28-2009, 11:27 PM

GypsyKaren

03-01-2009, 05:40 AM

Speaking from my position as a "they"...

I was getting tired of seeing the open TS sections being turned into "DIY Hormone Central", and I was tired of seeing members who never bothered to post here before about anything, who weren't interested in sharing a bit about themselves, who weren't interested in trying to be of any help to others, making a quick flyby so they could get boobs in a hurry, and don't waste my time with a flurry of "but that's not it!".

I was tired of seeing new members make a beeline here before the ink was dry from them joining and just wanting the quick and easy for hormones, I was tired of seeing members get indignant when the rest of us didn't rush out and get into our Walgreens uniforms and use an expected or demanded Marcus Welby bedside charm so they could get what they wanted and then get the hell out with their credit cards in hand.

We use to let it slide because the information is all over the internet anyway, but if someone is too lazy to at least do some research on their own if they choose to self medicate instead of trying to do a "dine and dash", then I will never see them as serious and I will never help anyone who is misinformed because they can't be bothered...learn how to drive before you buy the Vette.

Karen :g2:

And if anyone has a problem with anything I just said, PM me and we'll talk, but I will not get into a back and forth here.

Jengurl1

03-01-2009, 10:39 AM

Wow Lisa I definitely "chose my destiny" many many times!!!!
that really brought back memories..

as for some of this discussion
is this thread a monty python skit???

can anyone seriously say it's better to NOT see a doctor...in the real world that doesnt always happen...it is understandable and quite sad...

however, why anyone would choose to brag about not seeing a doctor i will never undertand..

I offered up serious information regarding medicine that a poster was taking and there was no response....this is not a serious discussion and its boring..

Sometimes I read something and can't believe it.

I don't usually leave out the truth when it comes to things that solely fall on me. I love to hear others logic especially when it differs from mine...

This post is about me cause I did not respond to your post. So inadvertently I pissed you off enough to plainly attack me.

This morning I got up read this and was so frustrated I ripped off my patch and had a smoke. I give that to you as gift for not replying, maybe you'll get some satisfaction from it or can use it to show my failings, maybe you won't need it.

Go ahead and dig into me, I knew giving this response wasn't the best thing I could do. Throughing, generating negativity around because of poor communication leaves no winners just losers and I'm done.

Or not. :doh:

Ps I wanted to thank you but I only had a few posts and I wanted the thread to die. you kinda when against the tide to offer helpful information, I admire that. After reading up on it more I realized I missed a couple issues important to me. By the time I got my tenth post I was confused and didn't know what to say. Sure I should have said thanks if nothing else but after your well written post I couldn't get past feeling lame. This is how I should have replied, how I felt and still do...but I just met someone new I don't understand them and don't want to.

Already I've taken enough notes to stop a truck. It'll take me days to read up on everything... Writing this wasn't about getting more information for myself or to say it should be here on this great site. I use the information I find on forums as reference, a starting point for research. Its all here names, doses, combination's, what better place to start for someone who may not know the terminology to search effectively. I didn't start here, but stopped here and found more things to look into. I just wanted to know how other people thought they were helping by leaving things out....some would try to censer it compleatly.

You can't have things both ways, theres always a loser, that doesn't make you a bad person.

Jen :)

Nicki B

03-01-2009, 07:16 PM

...would prefer my chances taking what the majority of a thousand people were taking rather than reading a page from a doctor that said to take something else. I would also google each drug to find whatever else i could, its far from perfect I know.

B-b-but.. WHY?

If the doctor is telling you to take something else because they know you have a particular reason that could cause major complications (like, for example, death - or being unable to take any hormones ever again, or permanent, major disability), why on earth would it make sense to ignore that advice?

That attitude seems to be one of 'I know best'.. IME, the people who usually show it often plainly don't. :sad:

Jengurl1

03-01-2009, 07:37 PM

What I meant was reading something online not a tailored prescription.

As for I know best unfortunately, thats not me.

Jen :)

marie354

03-02-2009, 10:05 AM

Speaking from my position as a "they"...

...learn how to drive before you buy the Vette.

Karen :g2:

I must agree with Karen.
Any drug can be as bad as it is good, most have side-effects.
I've been waiting, and waiting, and waiting, for HRT, but my doctors have held me back. Because of blood clotting problems I've had. The hormones can cause clotting too.
Now I've been through all kinds of testing and they have proven that my clotting hasn't gotten worse in the last 8-years. I've finally got the stents in my leg with good results. ...And I can walk much better now because of it.

Now I need more testing and my yearly physical before any decision can be made.

I don't mind this, really, because I want to live too. If my next results come back good and my physical, then they said they might give me that recommendation letter.

Always better safe than sorry. It only seems like a long time now, but later on I'm sure it'll all be worth it.
After all, isn't patience supposed to be a virtue?
:)

StaceyJane

03-02-2009, 10:51 AM

I work in a hospital lab and if I wanted to I could certainly do blood tests on myself to check hormone levels and liver function. The thing is I wouldn't want to. Even though I can read the results of a lab test there is an awfully lot that has to be taken into account. I really believe that it is best to have an expert monitor what is going on.
Also I always figure that if you can't tell your doctor that you are transitioning, you should really think about if you are truly ready.
BTW I'm not taking any hormones and the only tansitioning I'm doing is laser teatments for hair. Even then the treatments are done by a RN with a either a doctor or a P.A. in the clinic at all times.

Cindi Johnson

03-03-2009, 02:05 PM

Look, it would be great if we could all consult our physician each time we sneezed, but allow me to point out that:

a. many, many of us do not "have" a physician. "Our" doctor is, at best, the doctor at an emergency care center we went to ten years ago when we needed a few stitches.

b. We don't all have health insurance (in the USA, 50 million don't), and even if we do, it ain't gonna cover TG/TS matters.

c. Very few doctors have any training or understanding of TG/TS issues. I would venture that most of us know more about HRT issues and side-effects than do 95% of doctors. Why should they, after all? Most will work their entire careers without knowingly treating a TG/TS. And medicine is like anything else: you only get good at what you do. If you do open heart surgery 10 times a week, you'll likely be great at it. But does that mean you're good at rhinoplasty??

d. But you'll respond with: "then see a specialist". First, there aren't that many SRS specialists around, and second, if you're not gonna transition, they may not be interested in you as a patient.

If you're in decent health and just plan to take a mg or two of estrogen replacement tablets, do you really need a doctor to bless your decision? Yes, you could have a stroke. But guess what? 99.9 percent of stroke victims are not TG's taking estrofem. Unless you can show a causal effect, it is somewhat dishonest to say that you know someone who knew someone who had a heart attack while taking HRT. Chances are, 50% of us will die from heart failure, whether we take hormones or not.

Millions upon millions of women worldwide have taken HRT daily, often for years. Chances are, you don't see them dropping dead in the streets. Why is everyone so certain that a male who takes the same medicine is in grave danger?

I really think we raise too many professionals (not just doctors, but also psychologists, psychiatrists, and clergy) up upon an undeserved pedestal. Just remember, until recently this same medical profession blessed electroshock therapy to cure us of our transgenderism. Yes, they would put one of us in a room, have her put on a bra, than hit her with a thousand volts. My point: we have good reason to always question any professionals, including doctors.

Cindi Johnson

Raquel June

03-08-2009, 10:11 AM

I agree with what Cyndy is saying. I don't have health insurance and I buy my own stuff online. I'm on a fairly low dose of E and spiro. Then again, I'm on dutasteride and a rather high dose of progestone.

The main reason to see a doctor is so you don't kill yourself. The important thing is getting your liver checked. Your liver can react to hormones by producing enzymes that cause blood clots. That's the only way I've ever heard of anyone being hurt while on HRT. Estrogen will not "shut down your liver." To the contrary, estrogen is often given to people with liver damage. Still, people don't generally just drop dead from a blood clot. They get DVT which has many symptoms, then they might have a stroke or pulmonary embolism.

Smoking is a bad thing when you're on HRT because it constricts blood vessels making it easier to get a blood clot. You should probably at least be taking baby aspirin if you're going to smoke and take hormones.

But a lot of people talk about getting their hormone levels checked by a doctor. What's the point? TS girls tend to have much lower testosterone than GGs, but they don't stop taking testosterone blockers when they find that out. Our goal is not to mimic the hormone levels of GGs. That wouldn't be very useful. Well, in a way we want to mimic the elevated hormone levels of menarch.

It means the world to me that I am on hormone therapy, but the last thing I want to happen is being too sick or disabled to enjoy my life.

I can certainly agree with that. Obviously self-medicating isn't ideal. I suppose too many of us use the excuse that we're doing all we can by all the research we can and being careful. All of us can go to a free clinic and harass people there.

Influencing people to not see a doctor is probably always wrong.

...

I'm not saying people should give prescriptions...

Yeah, and I don't really see anybody telling people seeing a doctor is useless. But a doctor giving you a prescription doesn't make any drug inherently safer. I've seen a lot of TS girls who get prescriptions from doctors who obviously aren't up on what works and what doesn't work for TS girls. And it's always good to know exactly what you're taking and what symptoms to be looking out for.

On the issue of self medicating it's a bit like that guy in Mortal Kombat who used to shout 'Choose your destiny'.

So choose Sonya, Kitana or Jade, but try to avoid a fatality? I was never that good at MK, but in MK3 I did get decent at embarrassing people by just throwing them around with my hair as Sindel.

Kaitlyn Michele

03-08-2009, 09:13 PM

In the end, its quite sad that we all share the same situation and we do npot have an easy time finding proper and surefire healthcare....and we are left to debate our health, literally our lives with a couple hundred people...

i know so many are denied proper care , and some develop a f the world attitude and its hard to blame them

but the last word shouldn't be that doctors are all know nothings or as my granny used say ...all those doctors are just g*d dang good guessers...there are good doctors out there and i happen to be seeing one of them and it really helps me when i'm really down to know that i'm in good hands..

it can be quite rewarding and helpful to find a really knowledgable doctor, but that's not always possible i guess..

Kimberley

03-08-2009, 09:29 PM

Ashlyee Paige

03-08-2009, 10:41 PM

Hopefully is if they are going to self-medicate they will have ay least researched the drug sites to get information and not just guess and take random concoctions of pills. they should at least be aware of their family history and know how the drugs react. They are not just vitamins, they are Pharmacutical DRUGS and dangerous.

Raquel June

03-08-2009, 10:45 PM

Self medication under ANY circumstance is dangerous. THAT is a fact. The doctor has a fool for a patient.

Even in remote locations, a GP can monitor HRT. It isnt rocket science but a good in depth understanding of the endocrine system and basic physiology is needed; something WE DONT HAVE unless we have been to med school.

While that's a good general policy, it's overly dramatic and not always correct. You simply can't say that every person who self-medicates is a fool, and you can't say that every GP is not a fool.

Just to make a point about blanket statements, I have to mention that:

1) Any time you take an ibuprofen you are self-medicating.

2) I've met some really stupid doctors.

3) Many of us know of at least one person who has died as a result of fully trusting a doctor with their lives -- which could have been prevented if they had done their own research and been their own doctor.

To be more specific, there are doctors out there who have actually prescribed ehinyl estradiol to TS people -- an example of a situation where you would be better off Googling for a treatment program and self-medicating.

This is not to say you shouldn't see a doctor, just that you are still responsible for your own health and need to do your own research and have questions for your doctor.

And to give some more specific information about why many people go overboard with their criticism of self-medicating -- and why an informed person would probably be better self-medicating today than seeing a doctor who uses old methods:

- Baseline estrogen and testosterone levels are of no use to TS people.

- If you're young and don't have a history of liver problems, there's no reason to have your liver checked.

- If you're in good cardiovascular shape, not diabetic, and don't have liver problems you have a much lower risk of problems even if you self-medicate than people who do have these issues even if they're under a doctor's care.

- If you avoid oral estrogen or can get your hemoglobin tested you are at extremely low risk for clots.

- Many GGs take birth control pills with ehinyl estradiol and are at higher risk for blood clots than TS people who self-medicate.

- TS people don't tend to drop over dead from self-medicating because they tend to be smart enough to go to the hospital when they have symptoms of danger.

- Some of the more important tests aren't even called for until after you've been on HRT for several months (like checking your thyroid and red blood cell count), and many doctors tend to miss these tests.

See, here's the problem. There are a lot of people out there saying "don't self-medicate! It'll kill you!" But that's the wong approach. It's the wrong approach for the same reason that telling kids marijuana can kill you is wrong. We all know plenty people who smoke marijuana who lead productive lives, just like we all know plenty people who self-medicate who are doing just fine. So hearing those kinds of proclamations just makes people ignore you.

In the end I have simply never heard a legitimate account of a TS person dying from meds except after taking ehinyl estradiol. Most problems you can get aren't fatal, they just hinder your progress.

Kimberley

03-09-2009, 11:04 AM

Racquel. I can appreciate your position but with no disrespect, disagree. OTC medications can be dangerous if taken in excess. We are NOT talking about OTC meds here. We are dealing with what can be dangerous drugs and if used improperly without proper attention to health there can be serious consequences.

Doctors are human and make mistakes. That said I again emphasize my position that ANY physician who is not willing to be educated about the treatment protocols they are prescribing is negligent. It is a reason that any of us should be ensuring that WPATH standards are being met by all physicians with whom we come in contact. They are current in treatment protocols. It is why we must also be current in prescibed pharmaceuticals and treatments as well as potential risks. Those risks can be and are minimized through proper medical monitoring.

As to general health, that too is a given for anyone regardless of whether they identify as trans or not. To ignore it is plain stupidity.

Finally, anyone who is going to SRS needs the documentation from the appropriately qualified medical and psychological practitioners, unless of course you want to take your chances with someone who doesnt ascribe to the HBSOC.

Personally, I wouldnt risk my health or my life based upon my own research alone. I dont and wouldnt trust any physician without first ensuring that they know what they are doing and can prove it.

Again, I humbly submit that this kind of thinking is exactly what we as a community and the medical professions are battling. There is no argument to be made in favour of ignoring medical monitoring for transition. This is not a headache we are talking about.

Kimberley

Raquel June

03-09-2009, 12:00 PM

I just want to be clear that I don't think anybody as a policy should endorse self-administered HRT. I just don't agree with telling people they're idiots and it's going to kill them instead of being informative. Abstinence doesn't work to prevent teen pregnancy, and flat-out telling people not to take any meds if they're not seeing a doctor isn't going to stop them.

OTC medications can be dangerous if taken in excess. We are NOT talking about OTC meds here. We are dealing with what can be dangerous drugs and if used improperly without proper attention to health there can be serious consequences.

I don't understand the distinction you're making. Tylenol is OTC, and it is much more dangerous to your liver than estrogen.

It is why we must also be current in prescibed pharmaceuticals and treatments as well as potential risks. Those risks can be and are minimized through proper medical monitoring.

Definitely. And I guess that's the thing that really bothers me when I see a lot of "just say no" statements flying around. People often don't want to honestly discuss the risks of HRT because they think even talking about the medical specifics is encouraging people to not see a doctor. And many of these people are themselves misinformed about the risks and don't care to learn anything because they're content leaving that up to their doctor. They just tell everyone, "It's gonna kill you!"

morgan pure

03-09-2009, 09:56 PM

Jengurl,
"I ripped the patch off and had a smoke." That's the best line I've read. Many of us here will lecture you, but only you can make your decisions. I haven't told my doctor yet, but I will. There ARE real risks. I need to quit smoking! Every time I light up I am playing Russian roulette with a lot of rounds in the cylinder.
A lot of people here are those A-types that have their finances in order, save money, do things logically, never take foolish risks. I didn't start hormones logically. I didn't reason it out. I was looking for them idly online and bought them on a whim. I've had the happiest 8 months of my life. The anxiety of my risks is nothing compared to my life before. For people for whom life is easy, even gender disphoric ones, everything works according to their plans. Not all of us plan.
When my very unreliable pot dealer calls, I'll drive into the city in rush hour. I'm basically a chick. I thought chicks were allowed to be flaky.
Morgan

kellycan27

03-09-2009, 11:19 PM

I am comfortable with my doctor and her advice. I feel safer being monitored. I was having some problems until she adjusted the dosage of my estrogen.
If it's a question of not wanting people to know what you are doing I would at least get a check-up just to make sure that there were no underlying health problems. Everyone gets check-ups, so it wouldn't raise any suspisions.
I am not going to say that it's right or wrong. I think it's up to the individual.
I know how desparate the need I felt to change was for me. I don't advocate self medication, but I do understand. If you are going to self medicate, please use caution.

Raquel June

03-09-2009, 11:58 PM

Everyone gets check-ups

They do?

18% of the US population doesn't have health insurance, and not many people bother paying out of pocket for a checkup.

Kimberley

03-10-2009, 12:39 PM

Not all of us live in the US. A lot of us live in countries where our medical needs are looked after through our taxes by the state. We get "free" checkups, office visits, specialist consultations, surgical procedures etc. Some even have prescription coverage through their medical plans.

I do get an annual physical. I get blood work every 3 months. I get free eye exams (although some people have to pay for theirs; I do not because of a diagnosed condition). When needed I get free xrays, CAT scan or MRI. My only cost is the dispensing fee for my prescriptions.

Please dont think the center of the universe is in the US. I think, and a lot of people will agree that the US is way behind when it comes to health care. We think you people are being screwed by the insurance industry.

:hugs:
Kimberley

Raquel June

03-10-2009, 02:51 PM

Please dont think the center of the universe is in the US. I think, and a lot of people will agree that the US is way behind when it comes to health care. We think you people are being screwed by the insurance industry.

Wow. What a condescending remark. I was responding to Kelly whose profile says she is from Las Vegas. I was not pretending the US is the center of the universe. That's why I clearly stated that I was talking about the US.

I think people are pretty confused about what the actual healthcare problem is in the US, though. We're definitely getting screwed, but insurance companies are doing their best to keep costs down. Most insurance companies (HMOs) have strong-armed doctors into cheaper care, and I actually have to pay more out of pocket for the same care. All nationalized healthcare does is hide the costs.

But look at Canada. They get the same drugs from the same companies as we do. Pfizer sells stuff to Canda cheaper, and just screws us because our government lets them get away with it. So it's actually cheaper for us to get American-made drugs from other countries. How stupid is that?

And so many people sue doctors and hospitals in the US that malpractice insurance is insane. I think you get about $10 million if a doctor looks at you funny. Last I saw (which was several years ago) it was well over $100K/year for OBGYNs just to have the insurance they needed to deliver babies.

So yeah, we have health care problems, but a lot of that is just a manifestation of even bigger problems -- businesses is allowed to make all the rules in this country and the legal system is crazy.

But the actual healthcare (if you can get it) is good. I have three grandparents who live in Florida, and many of their friends are Canadians who spend the winter in Florida and summer in Canada. Every one of them chooses to get all their healthcare in the US rather than Canada because the doctors and hospitals are better.

Raquel June

03-10-2009, 03:51 PM

What I meant was that everyone ( male and female alike) get checkups if they choose to do so.
Personally, i try and take good care of my body,eat right,exercise,rest. I am in excellent health, but I do get a checkup once every year And I do see my doctor on a regular basis so that she can monitor any adverse changes, or even changes for the better. I am not to sacrifice my health just because I am pissed off at the rise in health care costs.
If you don't want to seek professional care... More power to you. We all have choices. I am not saying my opinion is more right than yours... just different.

Well, I'm in really good shape, too. I run a lot. My resting heartrate is 54. My max heartrate is 210. My blood pressure is 123/84, but that's not too bad. I just love salt.

It's not that I "don't want professional care." I don't get any kind of regular checkups, but I do try to get the professional care that I can. I pay my dermatologist cash to check out moles, and a few months ago I went to a clinic and demanded that they give me several blood tests. Likewise, I pay a therapist out of my own pocket when I can afford it.

I can say without doubt that I would not have skin cancer if I had avoided the dermatologist, and I would not have gotten a blood clot if I had avoided the blood tests, but I would be dead if I hadn't gotten help after my last mental breakdown. And none of those are my personal opinion; they are the opinions of medical professionals.

We'd all love to have the best support and medical care in the world, but unfortunately some of us have to prioritize. I do what I can. The fact that I self-medicate is not the biggest risk factor in my life.

And feel free to say your opinion is better than mine as long as you give your reasons. You probably wouldn't have that opinion if you didn't think it was the most logical.

Shayna2008

03-10-2009, 06:38 PM

Raquel June

03-10-2009, 07:15 PM

Just out of curiosity - does self-medicating just refer to HRT-related things like estrogen and blockers, or does it cover everything from HRT to breast-enhancement pills to creams, etc?

Any help with a definition would be appreciated. Thank you.

Well that depends on who's doing the talking.

People tend to think of taking anything you can't typically get over the counter as self medicating. That presents a few problems, because there are many things that require a prescription for reasons totally unrelated to the need for doctor supervision. For example, I use 2% Nizoral shampoo and Retin-A cream on my face which are prescription-only in the US, but to say either of those is a health risk would be asinine. That said, I'm sure there are people who would call me a reckless fool for the shampoo I use.

On the forum self-medicating typically refers to self-administering estrogen without a prescription. Obviously whether or not you have a prescription isn't the dangerous part, though, it's the monitoring by a professional.

And for the most part non-prescription breast enhancing pills are useless and more expensive than real estrogen. People would tend to define that as throwing your money away more than self-medicating.

Of course, you can self-administer other things, but most things people take for HRT present less risk than estrogen. There are some testosterone blockers with major side effects, but Spiro is the most common and if you don't have any liver problems you can take a whole lot of that. Progesterone has some possible bad side effects but no major risks.

All medication stresses your liver to some degree, oral medications more so than others. But Tylenol is harder on your liver than anything people take for HRT. Many HRT meds can give you mood swings, headaches or digestive issues, but nothing serious. The big deal with estrogen is that it can cause your liver to overproduce enzymes that can lead to blood clots and even heart attacks. Before you get on HRT you want to have your hemoglobin checked to see if you're at risk for clots. After you get on HRT you want to have your liver enzymes checked to see if they're being overproduced.

There are certainly non-clot related issues you can have with any medication, but the medications people typically talk about around here have been around a long time and the only real dangers are the cardiovascular risks of estrogen.

Jengurl1

03-10-2009, 08:49 PM

kellycan27

03-10-2009, 10:25 PM

I pay my dermatologist cash to check out moles, and a few months ago I went to a clinic and demanded that they give me several blood tests. Likewise, I pay a therapist out of my own pocket when I can afford it.

I can say without doubt that I would not have skin cancer if I had avoided the dermatologist, and I would not have gotten a blood clot if I had avoided the blood tests.

feel free to say your opinion is better than mine as long as you give your reasons. You probably wouldn't have that opinion if you didn't think it was the most logical.

But you did have the moles checked out as a precaution, and you did have the blood tests as a precaution.... even though you can say without a doubt that you wouldn't have gotten skin cancer or a blood clot.
But I am wrong for saying it might be wise to get a check up ...as a precaution.
What I stated was what I felt was logical... for ME.
I don't advocate self medicating, but at the same time i never said you shouldn't do it. As a matter of fact I even said that I understand why people do self medicate. I simply said be careful, be careful with moles,be careful with your blood, and be careful with drugs.
So where am I attacking you? Where am i saying my opinion is more logical than yours?
Where in the world am i even stating an opinion.

Raquel June

03-11-2009, 01:05 AM

So where am I attacking you? Where am i saying my opinion is more logical than yours?
Where in the world am i even stating an opinion.

Huh? Why are you asking me this? I never accused you of attacking me, and I didn't say there was anything wrong with your opinion. I responded to you because you seem to have misunderstood me. When you said:

If you don't want to seek professional care... More power to you.

That looks like you thought I was against getting professional care. I'm not.

kellycan27

03-11-2009, 01:34 AM

And feel free to say your opinion is better than mine as long as you give your reasons. You probably wouldn't have that opinion if you didn't think it was the most logical.

You quoted me and said this in your reply, so I assumed that you were talking to me. I may have misunderstood you with reference to medical care, and if I did I am sorry.

Raquel June

03-11-2009, 02:35 AM

I may have misunderstood you with reference to medical care, and if I did I am sorry.

No, it's NP. I meant to respond to you and simply say that I was all for getting the best care you can, but I sort of got rambling again. Sorry! :battingeyelashes:

Cindi Johnson

03-11-2009, 09:43 AM

It does seem that attacks against Jengurl and Racquel are excessive. Each raised legitimate points, only to be dismissed with a black and white argument. But this world is simply not black and white.

We all have and do self-medicate, whether with coffee, beer, vodka, pot, tobacco, sleeping pills, aspirin, you name it. Many here draw a bright line between prescription and non-prescription, but that line isn't really so sharp. For example, I was recently in Argentina and didn’t need a prescription to buy premarin (just walk into any pharmacy and it’s yours for the asking). Why? Are Argentine doctors/pharmacists stupid?? Not in my experience.

If a girl is TS and has decided to transition, then yes, a doctor’s care is necessary. The doses of hormones and drugs are critical and surgery obviously can’t be self-administered.

But for a girl who’s of uncertain sex who doesn’t envision surgery, isn’t financially secure, doesn’t have access to great health care and even less so to TG/TS specialists, and is able to research and understand the risks, self-medication is a viable option.

Another way to look at it: what if the doctor you go to just says “no”. After all, you’ve told him you’re probably not TS and you don’t want SRS surgery, and he’s not an expert and has absolutely no comprehension of the terribly difficult burden you’ve carried throughout your life. To him, there’s no medical reason to prescribe you anything. So you want to be more girl-like?? “Stupid fool,” he thinks to himself, “to give this male any drugs for such a self-centered and medically-unnecessary purpose would be like giving morphine to an addict who’s unhappy because he can’t find a fix”. So then what will this girl do? Will she forego the pleasures that a mg or two of estrofem could give her (e.g., fatter hips and butt, little girl titties, and, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HER LIFE, a comfortable peace of mind), simply because an ignorant doctor doesn‘t understand her needs? And remember that during a visit to a doctor in the US, you’ll have no more than a few minutes with him. You won’t have time to convey to him the pain of straddling the sexual divide.

So what to do? Shop around until you find a doctor to give you the magic piece of paper? Isn’t this just another way of self-administering?

Yes, there are risks. But we all take risks for what we deem pleasurable, be it HRT or mountain climbing. I bicycle in Dallas, the most dangerous city in the USA for bikers. Very risky for me, moreso than the estrofem I take. But I’ve decided that - for me - the enjoyment of riding outweighs the risks. Most people (and most doctors) wouldn’t agree. But it’s my decision. As is HRT. My decision, to live or die by.

I don’t advocate self-administering HRT, but I won’t automatically dismiss it either. It’s an option to consider.

Cindi Johnson

morgan pure

03-11-2009, 10:18 PM

Cindy, you are right. I'll bet many doctors will not gve people hormones unles they are in therapy and are vowing to transition.

Who questioned the US health care system? Well-it's embarrassing. We're the only industrialized nation world without universal care. But at present a sixth of the population is employed in it in some way, and doctors are paid baronial salaries. (I knew a surgeon who was making $800,000 a year in the 80's.)They ain't going to go down fightning. But maybe my favorite new president will try to fix that. It's like our prison system-so many people are employed in it that we HAVE to have strict drug laws.
M

Raquel June

03-12-2009, 12:13 AM

I'll bet many doctors will not gve people hormones unles they are in therapy and are vowing to transition.

Many will and many won't. I think most of the ones who won't probably aren't doctors you want anyway because they don't understand transsexualism and may not take it seriously enough to stay informed regarding medication. If you look at the HBSOC:

II. Epidemiological Considerations
Prevalence. When the gender identity disorders first came to professional attention, clinical perspectives were largely focused on how to identify candidates for sex reassignment surgery. As the field matured, professionals recognized that some persons with bona fide gender identity disorders neither desired nor were candidates for sex reassignment surgery.

...

Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:
The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment;
The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;
The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

...

VII. Requirements for Hormone Therapy for Adults
Reasons for Hormone Therapy. Cross-sex hormonal treatments play an important role in the anatomical and psychological gender transition process for properly selected adults with gender identity disorders. Hormones are often medically necessary for successful living in the new gender. They improve the quality of life and limit psychiatric co-morbidity, which often accompanies lack of treatment. When physicians administer androgens to biologic females and estrogens, progesterone, and testosterone-blocking agents to biologic males, patients feel and appear more like members of their preferred gender.

Eligibility Criteria. The administration of hormones is not to be lightly undertaken because of their medical and social risks. Three criteria exist.

Age 18 years;
Demonstrable knowledge of what hormones medically can and cannot do and their social benefits and risks;
Either:
a documented real-life experience of at least three months prior to the administration of hormones; or
a period of psychotherapy of a duration specified by the mental health professional after the initial evaluation (usually a minimum of three months).
In selected circumstances, it can be acceptable to provide hormones to patients who have not fulfilled criterion 3 - for example, to facilitate the provision of monitored therapy using hormones of known quality, as an alternative to black-market or unsupervised hormone use.

So even if the doctor is very strictly following HBSOC, the most you should be asked for HRT is to get three months of therapy. It should not be required that you are defined as TS to get HRT. Any Gender Identity Disorder should be sufficient. Regardless, the HBSOC does still leave room for someone to be defined as TS even if they have an aversion to surgery.

But on the Internet it's a little different, and people are very quick to tell you you're not TS if you're not in a hurry to get SRS. But I'm fine with people telling me I'm just TG. If I could wake up tomorrow as a GG I would, but the idea of SRS, graduated dilation rods, and trying to use a neo-vagina sexually without worrying that the bottom was going to fall out and having a panic attack are all difficult things for me think about.

And OMFG don't get me started on the prison system. Over 2 million of the 300 million people in the US are in prison -- which is higher both in absolute number and per capita than any other country, with Russia being the only remotely civilized one that comes close. 25% of people in prison are serving more than a year strictly for drug posession (non-violent and non-theft-related). People are doing 20 years for marijuana, but we act like guns are the problem? Nevermind that every house in Switzerland is required to have a full-auto assault rifle and they have extremely low crime. Oddly enough, they have basically decriminalized drugs (even heroin) and that actually lowered crime...