Race and Acceptance

[Tricia Lee]

I found something unexpected while travelling last week. Easily the least accepting category of people I've encountered so far while shopping drab or while dressed are older African-American women. Is this common? I was in a city in the south, so maybe that's part of the equation and wouldn't hold true everywhere.

Two examples:

1) I had planned to get dressed up after work one day, but ended up working late. I wanted a new outfit for the next day so my only option was to shop in drab. While shopping in a Catherine's plus-size store staffed by older African-American women SA's, not one of them would even look at me. No "can I help you"s or anything. I looked around for a few minutes, made a lap around the whole store (which was over-priced and had nothing I liked anyway), then left.

2) The only openly negative comments I received over the course of three days were from two black SA's at a Wal-Mart. They didn't direct the comments directly to me, but I could here them talking to each other. The line that stick out to me is one of them saying "I don't get tired of being a woman and decide to be a man". It wasn't overt or anything, but it was pretty judgemental. And again, they weren't even considering asking me if I needed any help.

I hope this isn't too devisive an issue. My reason for asking is that if this is a typical attitude around the U.S. I'll avoid shopping in predominantly African-American areas from now on.

Tricia

[Diane Smith]

That's an interesting set of experiences and hypothesis, Tricia. I can't comment much on it in a general way, but let me add my own slightly different observations.

My nail technician is African-American, and co-owns a hair and nail salon with her sister. The clientele on the nails side is probably 90% white while the hair clients are 90% African-American. The two owners treat me with complete respect and a little curiosity and are always interested and helpful when I have hair, nail, makeup and fashion questions they can answer. I consider them both friends and we have even embarked on a minor business deal together. I've had interesting and completely positive encounters with many of the other clients at this business as well, both black and white. I absolutely can't sense any race-related differences in the way any of them relate to me. If anything, I would be led to conclude from this that there is actually more acceptance among the African-American community, at least those who are inclined to visit high-end beauty shops.

I also use (another) primarily African-American salon as my backup place for hair services. The stylists there (three of them) are all totally friendly and seem to compete for my business. As with others I have encountered in the beauty industry, they seem to regard working on me as a novelty and a challenge, and appreciate the creative opportunities it gives them. Far from any negative vibes, it is clear that they want my business, have encouraged me to promote their salon among my other CD acquaintances, and just radiate upbeat feminine energy when I deal with them. I have had little contact with any other clients at this salon and can't comment about their reactions.

Finally, my favorite SA at the local Lane Bryant store, now alas closed, was a young African-American woman. Although my relationship with her was not close, I was always treated very well and professionally there, got good fashion advice from her, and would try to seek her out whenever she was working there when I stepped in.

If it makes any difference, I am in Central Illinois, about 120 miles south of Chicago.

I think you may have encountered a genuine regional difference, or maybe you just had bad luck in those establishments. I'd be interested to hear others' experiences and interpretations. But my observation is that African-American women, at least, may be somewhat more accepting of "us" than the general community.

- Diane

[Amanda_Robinson]

Tricia,

I think you just stumbled upon a couple of bitter people. I would be willing to bet that those SA's were rude to the next person who walked into their store. The bottom line is they were rude to you and their store lost your business. Those bitter hags may have felt justified in being mean to you somehow hoping to make themselves feel better. :Angry3: Being from the south myself I am familiar with those types of people and they generally have nothing good to say about anybody.

Your question isn't out of line at all but consider this: Had those SA's been caucaisian, would you have decided to avoid all caucasian businesses or just the store or chain who treated you badly? I can understand those SA's upset you and if I were you I wouldn't visit those stores again either. I can also understand you feeling uneasy in an environment you admit is unfamiliar to you.

Please feel free to respond, especially if you disagree. I admire you for speaking up in the first place. Far too many people fail to discus issues like this and leave too many valuable questions open.

~Amanda

[CDPAUL]

"I was in a city in the south"

[deja true]

Well...there are gonna be a lot of variables that affect how anybody is going to react to you at one time or another... (and many of them are just not recognizable from a quick look...)

-Urban (where folks have been exposed to a lot of different kinds of people) or Rural (where they haven't...)
-Religious affililation...do they go to a mainstream church that regularly preaches tolerance or a "jumper church" that regularly rails against gays or heretics or heathens..
-Occupation (like your salon where it's taken for granted that if you walk through the door you're gonna spend money...nobody is 'just looking' when they enter a salon.)
-Education...and exposure to a wider world of ideas and diversity...
-Their own life experience of 'other-gendered' people...(Have they ever been affected adversely by a gay or lesbian or trans person?)
-Peer pressure...if one vocalises a dislike of us, the beta dogs will concur whether they feel that way or not...
-And don't forget about all the "-isms" and "...-phobias"...racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia, transphobia...

And lots more, of course, many too subtle ever to find out about.

We'll never know how any one person (that we don't know) is gonna feel when confronted by one of us. All we can do is try to be ourselves and do the best we can.

If that Catherine's was wholly unwelcoming, try the one in a different town...

Me? I'll stick to smaller stores in upper class areas and malls with younger SAs...and catalogue shopping, of course! (On the internet, knowbody knows you're a dog!)

:)

[battybattybats]

Hmmm... well African American Transwomen face horrificly higher hate crime rates http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97576 (if the APA estimates for numbers of TSs are accurate then murder is the leading cause of death for black american transwomen by a huge margin) but im not sure the perpetrators are all from their own community which is very important!

Now my first time out in public was halloween last year when I went to the womens comedy festival in my town. I ended up meeting several of the performers backstage and got a huge amount of encouragement and imediate acceptance from an Indian Australian and from an elderly African American.

Well... the sample size is small... but the results are good, out in front of one Older African-American Woman, 100% acceptance :)

I'm not sure there are many African Americans in my town, the only other one I met is no longer in this country, most of the Africans here are either African Africans (I've met a few from Ghana, but not out at the time) or African Australians.. however despite my general goth androgyny look in male mode I've not had any bad reactions from any I've passed by in the street and have had a few nice friendly hello's.

[Wendy me]

i say it's all the same with any group .........some accept and some don't ..... some are rude and some are not..................

[battybattybats]

i say it's all the same with any group .........some accept and some don't ..... some are rude and some are not..................

Ah but as the murder rate of African American Transwomen shows not all groups are the same. While there are good and bad in each group some can have more of one than another for a variety of circumstantial reasons.

Thing is small sample experiences especially from just one area are bad for making broader judgements or assessments of risk, with a high likelihood of causing harm by such judgements.

[Tricia Lee]

I have to say that there were several younger black SA's at other shops who were helpful, and the evening desk attendant at my hotel was very kind and friendly. All-in-all my experiences were very positive. That's what really stood out about these isolated instances involving the older women. It wasn't that I was hurt or offended by anything that happened. I just hate to make anyone uncomfortable - and they were clearly uncomfortable.

Tricia

[Amanda_Robinson]

Shame on them for being rude to you, Tricia. You seem like a very nice person. I think those folks were uncomfortable long before they encountered you. :)

~Amanda

[Hope]

I think that like any other easily identifiable group of people, there will be some characteristics that emerge that are "generally" true, but that each individual is still - dare I suggest it - and individual, and in no way responsible for, or representative of the entire group.

I do however think that it is sad, that when a group that has historically been oppressed (as African-Americans have been in the United States) is given the opportunity to oppress others, that they far too often take the opportunity to do just that. As we saw with the overwhelming African-American vote for Prop. 8 in California last year.

So you may have stumbled across a real issue here - or you may have stumbled across a couple of african-american women who were just cranky. The point is we will never know. Besides, the next two African American women you meet may well be the most open accepting people you ever encounter... there is no way to know.

A better solution to the issue is not to allow others to determine your experience, but to carry yourself with grace and poise and confidence in all situations. Let other people present themselves the way they choose to - and if they choose to present themselves to you as bigots - choose to still be a lady to them.

[Jonianne]

There are people who have prejudice's in all races, as we well know. My wife is African-American and is the most wonderful supportive person I know. She was the one who took me on my first outing, saying "Joni needs to feel the sun on her face". We were married in the capitol of the south - Richmond, Va, where not that long ago interracial marriage was illegal.

I'm sorry your experience was bad in the south. Hopefully the next time it will be more pleasant.

[Violetgray]

I've always had the theory that cultures are like people, they each have their own personalities like individual people do. Unfortunately black culture in the U.S. definitely has to work on gay exceptance. Why gay exceptance? Because we haven't even come so far that we bother to distinguish between gay and trans for the most part.

Things are getting better, however. A couple halloweens ago, I went to my friend's family halloween party. It was mostly made up of black women 40 and over, and ULTRA religious. one of the men there was a preacher, and they all ended the party with a round of gospel songs, as they were in a choir.

But anyway, the first time I went I got surrounded by women who wanted to know how I put my costume together, where all the cleavage came from, my makeup techniques, etc. And the next year everyone wanted to talk to me again, because they couldn't wait to see what I wore this time! lol

So while I'm not surprised that this happened to you I woudn't say give up, because things are getting better, not worse!

[Tracii G]

Sounds like you found two grumpy old women.
The south is a wonderful place full of wonderful people.

[Jess_cd32]

Sounds like you found two grumpy old women.
The south is a wonderful place full of wonderful people.

I'll second that as having lived in the south for many years, you just met two old nasty *&#* having a bad hair day.

[Angie G]

Tracy I think what you found was isolated and not the norm. I don't know of the first place Catherine's but the 2ND your talking Walmart. they most likely didn't want to be there. I'v seen this attitude in several caucaisian SA's. Let it go Tracia S#%t happens girlfriend.:hugs:
Angie

[Nicole Erin]

I have had good and bad experiences with pretty much all types of people.

I would imagine black women would be a bit more likely to be accepting, since they probably know what discrimination feels like more than anyone, being black AND woman.

But really it is hard to tell, based on the experiences on this forum, rejection or acceptance could come from anyone - family, friends, black, brown, white, young, old, ignorant, educated, co-worker, neighbor, the security guy at walmart....

[Lorileah]

as the song goes "you got to be carefully taught." I think it may have been more age related than race. Old school had many misconceptions that are hard to overcome. As they say it is harder to break bad habits than it is to instill good ones.

I know that the bible belt attitude of my in-laws is almost impossible to overcome no matter how much you can "prove" they are off base. I know it is probably more of a geographical thing but older women (no matter what race) seem to be more accepting and friendly here in a metro area. Or maybe they just want to make new friends.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

RULE #27 - if you come in contact with unpleasant SAs - don't go back to

that store - there are a lot of other stores who want our business.

JoAnne Wheeler

"An All American Bluegrass Girl and Proud As I Can Be"

[battybattybats]

RULE #27 - if you come in contact with unpleasant SAs - don't go back to

that store - there are a lot of other stores who want our business.

JoAnne Wheeler

"An All American Bluegrass Girl and Proud As I Can Be"

Boycotting one store personally changes little.

The business needs to know they have lost business and others need to know so they can avoid similar bad treatment.

So if your going to not go back to that store, let the management know. And let other TG folk in your area know too.

[kellycan27]

I think I have agree with Amanda on this one. Just a couple of grumpy unhappy SA's, and probably not having to do with race. But even if it did have to do with race, why let one incident sour you on shopping with other african american businesses. All races have their idiots and bigots, why let them win?
How did we get form a slight while shopping to murder?

[KandisTX]

"I was in a city in the south"


This statement alone explains alot. I'm sure many of my other Southern Sisters will agree. Too often we run into this type of attitude when dealing with some groups of people. In your case, they happened to be black, in some cases that I have dealt with they were Arabic, or Asian. Many times it is religious upbringing, or lack of knowledge that causes such attitudes. These are the people that need to be educated as to our niche in this culture and of course, not too many of us are willing to educate, mainly because many are closeted and don't want to run the risk of outing themselves, or worse.

Kandis:love::rose2:

[TxKimberly]

Honestly, I've found just the opposite. I've had quite a few African American women actually approach me to offer compliments on shoes and skirts.

I can't speak for "Catherine's", but if you ask me, the other bad experiance you had might have little or nothing to do with the race of the woman you are speaking of, but might indeed be more due to the fact that you were shopping in Walmart. I do a fair amount of shopping there too, don't get me wrong, but let's face it, Walmart does not offer wages that attract high quality customer service oriented people.

[Ashlyee Paige]

It must have been just those ladies, Every person has their own prejudices and it isn't limited to race, gender or any other factor. I have been been targeted negativly as well as accepted by people who I would have thought the opposite of. every person is molded by their own circumstance and have their own opinions, I wouldnt label an entire group as being unaccepting of transfolk, You see men alot more than women trash talk us in a group but look longingly at us with glances, maybe they didnt want to appear firendly in front of the others, who knows something may have shapped their opinions.

[battybattybats]

How did we get form a slight while shopping to murder?

Cause its the only clear stats i know of about the effects of race on TG issues, it shows that black TG people are the main victims of transphobia and so is present to counter any possible unconcious racism that could arise from this subject. Cause its so horrible every lucky white TS or CD who has a far less chance of being murdered needs to ask themselves what they can do to reduce the slaughter. It naturally belongs in any (actually maybe that should be every) discussion of race and TG.

[TxKimberly]

You know, Holly is sort of the unofficial "Mother" here in the forum. I vote we make Batty the Forums conscience (and no, i am NOT being sarcastic)

[jacques]

Hello,
I live in the UK. There are quite a few small Asian owned clothing shops.
I like shoppong and shop in "drab". The only hostility I ever experienced was in an Asian shop - when I was buying some fishnet tights for my daughter to wear at her dance class. The owner refused to serve me.
Yet in another shop once when I was buying fashion tights the elderly male shopkeeper was very keen to tell me about his new stock!
I suspect that this is the difference between Muslims and Hindus.
Luv Jaques

[jacques]

Hello,
I live in the UK. There are quite a few small Asian owned clothing shops.
I like shoppong and shop in "drab". The only hostility I ever experienced was in an Asian shop - when I was buying some fishnet tights for my daughter to wear at her dance class. The owner refused to serve me.
Yet in another shop once when I was buying fashion tights the elderly male shopkeeper was very keen to tell me about his new stock!
I suspect that this is the difference between Muslims and Hindus.
Luv Jaques