Is it time to do something? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

battybattybats

03-18-2009, 11:55 AM

I don't know what to do

Well the 1st thing is, if your in one of these areas vote against the haters :)
Voting is secret, so the deepest closet allows that.

2nd thing is you could donate a few bucks to the people fighting the haters. Sure people are hard pressed for cash these days but every dollar counts so if you can spare a few bucks, if you can give up just a tiny smidge of your girl shopping budget for a little while then that will help tremendously. And if you can buy femme stuff then you can donate a couple bucks right?

3rd thing is you could speak out against the hate. You don't have to be out to do so, just not publicly transphobic right? And we sure shouldn't be that! There are non-CD allies of CDs. Even in the closet many of us can be that!

Now all that just about everyone should be able to do yes?
Well if its near you and your out or able to be brave enough to pretend to be a non-CD ally you can join the campain against the hate if you can donate a little time. You could educate the voters in the area perhaps.

Spread the truth that goes against the lies like the tons of places that allow CDs to use womens bathrooms without ever having a single recorded case of someone using a law like that as an excuse to hurt anyone! It's never happened and many of those laws have been in place for years and years yet the liars are saying we will put women and children at immediate risk!

You could email around the anti-hate ads to people.

You could anonymously join in the comments on news reports and blogs to expose the lies and support Civil Rights! And speak up for CDs and TSs as good decent hard-working citizens!

You don't have to be out to do any of that! Just not be publicly anti-TG yourself and you could pretend your just a decent non-CD person opposing evil lies and hate and injustice.

Sure a mass coming-out could change the world but those not ready to do that can still help tremendously! A tiny bit of cash, a tiny bit of time would all add up!

This is a small but vocal group of haters that are getting sucess because not enough of us are oppossing them. And yet many estimates of CD numbers are 10% of the population! How much money is it if just 1% of USA citizens donated $1? I don't know the USA population but I bet thats a lot of money!

So what of those things do you think you can do? What do you think you can't? Can anyone think of other ways to help?

This is quite literally a threat to CDs everywhere in the USA and that could spread to other parts of the world. One that will continue to grow the more success it gets. One that could make it far more dangerous to go outside dressed and that could mean getting arrested or attacked if you have to go to the bathroom!

I know what to do. Live our lives. Do what we do proudly. Let others see that what we are doing, although outside the boundary of what they consider normal, is quite normal for us. If we skulk around furtively, acting as though even we believe what we're doing is wrong, others will believe it as well. We have to accept ourselves if others are ever going to accept us.

Sure that will work well in the long-term. But do you really think we can get enough of us out in public and educating the people we interact with in our dailly lives to win these votes? I don't think we can get enough to be out in time! In which case we need the folk in the closets to help!

Do we scream and shout and wave flags in others' faces? I don't believe so.

Whose suggesting we do? Though it has worked for gay people for 40 years of course! Still if we can't get enough folks out then that tactic won't work on its own.

You can't force someone to change their opinions, you can only give them the opportunity to see your side. If they take it, wonderful. If they don't take it, wonderful.

Exactly! And if we let these liars be the only ones talking to the voters, or if we let them be the ones to do the most talking then we wont be giving the average decent American the chance to see outr side! They'll only see the lies told about us!

Yes, getting more to come out will help tremendously. but they wont be enough on their own!

But with the help of those in the closets we can educate the voters and prove the lies are lies! Expose the lying haters for the liars and haters that they are and sway those duped by the lies back away from the lies to the truth!

We can't just rely on the folk who are out for this unless far more are willing to come out! We need the closeted folk to pitch in from inside their closets!

Kayla Shadows

03-18-2009, 02:34 PM

I say yes to all your above questions.It is time

And if it is not then why is it not?

Its been time for a long time.We cant change tomarrow if we dont start with today.

I agree that if more that want to be out were out,it would be more in the public eye.The more people out there,the more they will run into regular people and be able to atleast influence the vision of us.Invisibility in society does not help.When all people have to go on is lies,the truth wont be anywhere to be seen.Whether in the closet or not,voices must be presented on issues anywhere they may be seen.The truth is that there are still people out there looking to take from us.If we all do nothing then we are only hurting ourselves.

Jennifer Cox

03-18-2009, 03:06 PM

Firstly, apologies for not reading all of the post (shame on me) but I got the gist. What can we do :-

1. Actively complain when anyone issues threats of violence or hate.

2. If we're really 10% of the population, then find someone to stand for election against anyone standing on a platform advocating anything negative about TS or TG individuals. Even the main parties wouldn't want to jeapordise 10% of the vote.

3. Get out of the closet more - OK, I'm a hypocrite - but if the ordinary public became more used to us, there wouldn't be an issue. (Not a total hypocrite since I was trying on dresses in a shop yesterday - can't resist a sale :D)

Ronni Seymour

03-18-2009, 04:20 PM

I know what to do. Live our lives. Do what we do proudly. Let others see that what we are doing, although outside the boundary of what they consider normal, is quite normal for us. If we skulk around furtively, acting as though even we believe what we're doing is wrong, others will believe it as well. We have to accept ourselves if others are ever going to accept us.

Do we scream and shout and wave flags in others' faces? I don't believe so. You can't force someone to change their opinions, you can only give them the opportunity to see your side. If they take it, wonderful. If they don't take it, wonderful.

Kathi

Our government might pass laws, but it can't change peoples hearts or minds. Only personal interaction can accomplish that.
I know I'm probably going against the flow, but, I personally get tired of every group that comes along wanting to push for laws that protect their life choice.
I do not think it engenders goodwill with those who may not understand. And we have to learn to live together with those who will not ever understand.
I won't be one marching in the streets and demanding laws.
I am personally thankful for the current freedom to live my life as I want. And I can do that by using common sense and good judgement. I don't feel I need to demand anything else!
:love:

Kathi Lake

03-18-2009, 04:24 PM

Amen, sister!

:)

Kathi

MissConstrued

03-18-2009, 04:46 PM

I just know that crossdressers are treated like second class lepers.

Well, if it ain't Little Miss Ray of Sunshine again! So tell me, what's a second-class leper? Is that better, or worse, than a first-class leper?

Did it ever occur to you that you might just be a cretin? I get treated like a rock star. Maybe it's because I expect to be treated like a rock star?

Our government might pass laws, but it can't change peoples hearts or minds. Only personal interaction can accomplish that.
I know I'm probably going against the flow, but, I personally get tired of every group that comes along wanting to push for laws that protect their life choice.

I agree wholeheartedly, and only snipped for brevity. We have too damn many laws already.

The acceptance of gays hasn't happened because of laws -- it simply happened because society as a whole has become more libertine. In fact, many of the things that government has rammed down the throats of the unwilling citizenry were already slowly in progress -- like integration -- and probably wouldn't have taken much longer on their own. Just like polio had nearly run its course before the mandated vaccines came along.

And... for me, it boils down to the fact that I don't see myself as doing, or being, anything out of the ordinary. I've been told all my life that I'm "unfairly privileged" because I'm white and male. Should I give that up to join a minority that imagines itself to be oppressed?

Where am I oppressed? The only times I've ever been discriminated against were specifically because of my white-maleness -- not for anything else. I can dress however I like. There's no laws against that. What am I supposed to be fighting for? Stores don't sell me women's clothes because of government. They do it because they want my money. If one store doesn't want my money, that's their right. That's why there's competition.

I'm simply not interested in being a victim. I'm not oppressed, because I choose not to be. As a lifelong libertarian, I realize that no one is responsible for me but myself. I don't care what anyone else does as long as they don't infringe on my rights.

And if everyone else would adopt that mentality, and take responsibility for their own freedom and happiness, instead of depending on yet more Big Brother, we wouldn't have half the problems we do today. But unfortunately, that requires the capacity for rational thought, which cannot be legislated. Quandary.

So... no, you won't be catching me supporting any legislation that enshrines yet another protected class.

Shelly Preston

03-18-2009, 05:11 PM

I don't know what to do - I just know that crossdressers are treated like

second class lepers.

JoAnne Wheeler

Well you could try looking on the bright side for a change

A positive mental attitude helps when you are arguing against things

You do what little you can when you can

You don't always have to scream from the rooftops

Deborah Jane

03-18-2009, 05:11 PM

I don't know what to do - I just know that crossdressers are treated like

second class lepers.

JoAnne Wheeler

Well, if it ain't Little Miss Ray of Sunshine again! So tell me, what's a second-class leper? Is that better, or worse, than a first-class leper?

Did it ever occur to you that you might just be a cretin? I get treated like a rock star. Maybe it's because I expect to be treated like a rock star?

:yrtw::yrtw:

Kayla Shadows

03-18-2009, 06:09 PM

Not true.

I worked in this field for 15 years, so perhaps I know a little about law and discrimination.

ONE. Law is not intended to change people's hearts and minds, it's there to change people's behaviour. I think it was Martin Luther King who said: "I don"t want laws to make white people love black people; I just want them to stop lynching us."

TWO. But in fact, law does in the end change people's hearts and minds, by a process of beneficial circle (the opposite of a vicious circle). One example: in the 19th century, reformers in England pushed through laws that prevented young children from being employed in factories. It ran against public opinion both of employers who wanted cheap labour, and parents who wanted extra family income. But after the law had been passed, it gradually entered the hearts and minds of the people... and who would argue against it now?

By such small steps the world becomes better.

very well said

I've been told all my life that I'm "unfairly privileged" because I'm white and male. Should I give that up to join a minority that imagines itself to be oppressed?

Nobody personally asked you to give up anything.Batty just asked if anybody thinks its time to do something.

Where am I oppressed? I can dress however I like. There's no laws against that. What am I supposed to be fighting for?

I understand what your saying and Im not here to tell you your wrong for being you.I may not agree 100% with every word but I will never bash you on it.Your you and Im fine with that.Ive been around the net and there has been talk about people and groups who seek to take away what we are trying to gain.When girls and guys are still telling me that they are getting kicked out of bathrooms or not getting work even though they are over qualified,I think beyond myself and what is only effecting me.The thread may have been about crossdressers but,with transgendered people as a whole,there are still people who face difficulty in their daily lives.It may not be some huge overwhelming percent of the population in the world but,the fact that it does happen is what gets my concern.Nobody is demanding that anybody here fight.Sometimes people just want to have a little hope.Something that may bring some truth to a wished for reality in which,hopefully, your brothers and sisters at least stand with you.Nothing more,nothing less.Just a acknowledgment that things are still not perfect and somebody out there cares.

kellycan27

03-18-2009, 06:19 PM

I usually like to get right in the mix when this topic comes up, but not today...
Feeling kind of day dreamy and girly today. Nope, just not feelin it.
:daydreaming:

MissConstrued

03-18-2009, 06:32 PM

The thread may have been about crossdressers but,with transgendered people as a whole,there are still people who face difficulty in their daily lives.....Just a acknowledgment that things are still not perfect and somebody out there cares.

I'm agreed on that. I do my best to be an ambassador for the executive transvestites of the world... and I have on more than one occasion stood up for someone being picked on. I don't think I'm a slouch, at the personal level, for spreading acceptance... and libertarian philosophy, of course. :)

My objection is directed at idealizing government as a solution for anything. "Legislating morality" is an epithet commonly directed at right-wingers, but left-wingers do it too. It just depends on whose morality is being legislated, and I don't believe in it either way. I think I do a better job, and it doesn't cost me anything.

Shari

03-18-2009, 06:34 PM

Seems all we can really do is beat our heads against the wall, like we have been all our lives and will until we're on the wrong side of the grass.
There's no answer and certainly no fix. It just ain't gonna happen.
Throw money at it? I think not.
There's not much point in getting so worked up about something we have zero control over, and that's the public perception and attitude.
You can't regulate people's opinions.

Blacks and gays are still getting beat up and pushed aside. laws or not.
It's going to take multi generations for that to go away, and apparently, we're much lower on the totem than they are.

Try to enjoy yourself whenever and wherever it's safe.
It will prove better than "getting your teeth knocked out with a fire extinguisher" just because we think we're right.
Such a lovely comment that was.
Sad to say, that's the kind of thinking we're up against.

If nothing else, PLEASE be careful out there!

Jess_cd32

03-18-2009, 06:39 PM

I think informed knowledgable cd's/tg's contacting different type media outlets nationwide here and asking if there might be an impartial reporter to do a legitimate non sensational story on cd/tg's could be a start.

I think of this at times but lack confidence at the moment to offer enough valueable educational input, but that will change over time. I've talked with media types numerous times in the past about non cd related issues. The writer/ reporter can make or break you and your intentions if they chose. Most of the time they were behind us 100%.

I haven't read your link yet but will soon. I wasn't aware of us being portrayed as pedophiles etc... recently.

I usually like to get right in the mix when this topic comes up, but not today...
Feeling kind of day dreamy and girly today. Nope, just not feelin it.
:daydreaming:

We understand your on cloud nine right now with your new guy Kelly so just relax and kick back, we got ya covered on this one:)

Gabrielle Hermosa

03-18-2009, 07:08 PM

I'm tired of being looked at as some kind of terrible person or freak or whatever because of who I am. I'm a really nice girl (or guy if you prefer). Because of the negativity surrounding the subject of crossdressers, I'm somewhat stuck in the closet (outside my own wife).

What needs to happen is society needs to get used to crossdressers as being normal, everyday people. Just like any other difference in people, we choose to be feminine, girly, not-masculine, whatever.

I love the spirited posts about making a difference and changing society. It gets me fired up and feeling good about the future. :) For now though, I think the subtle approach is best for me.

I'd like to sneak in under the radar. I'd like to get people's attention first, let them get to know me and to like me, and then let them realize I'm a crossdresser.

I first ventured online as Gabrielle only early this year. Now I'm taking a step further and beginning to share some of my life as a cd, outside the cd community. I'm a cd, but there is a lot more to my life than just that aspect. I like a lot of the same things many non-cd's like. Maybe they'll find their way to me online and take a moment to see that I'm no freak and I'm running smoothly on all 8. And maybe they'll just make fun. Who knows. I'm trying though.

We all need to do our thing. We all need to step up somehow and make a difference. I sure as hell WILL make a difference before my days are through. I will educate minds and open hearts. This is where I start. This is Gabrielle's first step - my CD life. No idea where it will go, but I look forward to the adventure. :)

Kimmie

03-18-2009, 08:11 PM

I hear that retailers hare having trouble moving clothes off the rack. Lobby your congressman to stop giving TARP money to failing banks and AIG, then give that money to cross dressers. We would put that money into circulation. The massive pink haze might be enough to stimulate the economy and get us out of the recession. Then everybody would love us. Hooray!!!!

Noxvictum

03-18-2009, 08:22 PM

docrobbysherry

03-18-2009, 09:02 PM

Using scare tactics is an EXCELLENT way to panic folks and GET ELLECTED!

" Them there perverts will NOT be allowed in with the women and children, if u vote for me! I won't allow them to CONTINUE to terrorize our women folk"!":eek:

So, Buford R. Beartrap gets elected. They pass laws forbidding anyone except GGs and small children, from entering women's public restrooms.

Carmen (Fred) Sanchez, a slight, small CD, wearing a dark, conservative ladies outfit, enters an empty men's public restroom one evening. Coming out, he is confronted by several "good old boys" who stopped off to pee after happy hour at the nearby Raccoon Bar. After beating him within an inch of his life, Carmen survives. But, with injuries that will keep him from holding a meaningful job the rest of his life.

His brother in law, a top New York attorney, enters the fray. By the time they're finished with the; town, county, and state, Carmen collects 27 million dollars and a PERMINANT change in the state restroom laws!

And FINALLY, the public becomes aware and sympathetic to this poor, harmless CD!
But, MORE IMPORTANT, every attorney in the country will quickly advise their political buddies, that trying to force CDs into public men's restrooms, may NOT be such a good idea!

Oua la! Problem solved!:brolleyes: THIS ONE, anyway!

Nicki B

03-18-2009, 09:08 PM

Where am I oppressed? The only times I've ever been discriminated against were specifically because of my white-maleness -- not for anything else. I can dress however I like. There's no laws against that. What am I supposed to be fighting for?

So, you're comfortably out to all your colleagues at work, then? :strugglin

Seems all we can really do is beat our heads against the wall, like we have been all our lives and will until we're on the wrong side of the grass.
There's no answer and certainly no fix. It just ain't gonna happen.

Keep saying that to yourself and nothing can ever change then, can it? :rolleyes:

Nicole Erin

03-18-2009, 09:52 PM

Hate groups always lose out. Look at crap like the KKK, the wanna-be nazis, and whoever else tried to hold rights back from women or blacks or whoever.
Haters and hate groups are usually made of people who do not have enough education to really go anywhere with their silly goals like making it illegal for us to take a whizz. :heehee:

Hate groups normally consist of straight white uneducated hillbillies. And, they pretty much want to do away with anyone who has an IQ better than 100.

See here is the thing - we as TG do have some difficulties not faced by non-TGs, but not as much as some people act like. People don't understand us but on the whole we are not truely hated like some groups.

OH and with the restroom issue, it is always coming up for us...
It is so silly, the simple solution - if en femme, use the ladies room, just go in when it is empty, take care of business, get out. I have never once seen a security guard or the gender police watching the restrooms.

Politicians bringing up STUPID crap like this? Is this just to distract from the real issues? I guess since Cleetus and Billy-Bob are not legally allowed to marry their own kin, they are probably just bitter or something. :brolleyes:

sissystephanie

03-18-2009, 09:55 PM

When I was a teenager, before many of you were even born, I had a very old Oriental friend. He taught me an ancient Oriental philosophy which I have lived by ever since. It is very simple and applies to a lot of things.

Simply put, it is this. "Worry only about the things you can materially affect. If you cannot affect the outcome in any way, do not worry about it."

We can campaign against politicians who are against us, we can hold rallies to gain support for our cause, we can do a lot of other things. But the one thing we cannot do, unless we ourselves are willing to change, is to change peoples minds. You cannot force people to think one particular way. Hitler tried to do that and look where it got him!

If we, as CD's, show the world that we really don't care what they think of how we dress pretty soon they will get the message. Yes, it will take time, but it will work. For the 49+ years that I was married, I went out as Stephanie very often. Thanks to my late wife's skill with my wig and makeup, I was entirely passable. She has been gone for 4 years, but I still go out. Only now I go out as a guy wearing a skirt, etc. You know what? No one bothers me! I do get compliments on my outfits, or my shoes. But no negative comments. I believe the reason is my attitude! I don't care what they think!! I dress to please me, not the whole world!! If you don't like the way I look, look at someone else!!

I like BATTYBATS thoughts, but I think we as CD's need to change our attitudes also.:2c:

battybattybats

03-18-2009, 10:29 PM

Long post to answer multiple people, bear with me please.

I am personally thankful for the current freedom to live my life as I want. And I can do that by using common sense and good judgement. I don't feel I need to demand anything else!
:love:

Ok. It seems some folks just don't get it. athey are trying to take away your freedom to live your life as you want!

Get it? The very freedom you cherish IS WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY

The acceptance of gays hasn't happened because of laws

You dont think stopping putting them in jail for being gay helped?

Where am I oppressed?

They are ensuring that you may be arrested for using the womens bathroom if you go out dressed. They are ensuring that more and more people will believe you are a rapist and pedophile. That if an employer learns your a crossdresser even when you crossdress at home that you can be fired!

I can dress however I like. There's no laws against that.

There were. And once they have stripped from you any protection you have they will try and bring those laws back! And as they are winning right now then chances are they will win if you keep your head in the sand about it!

As a lifelong libertarian, I realize that no one is responsible for me but myself. I don't care what anyone else does as long as they don't infringe on my rights.

Didn't you even get the name of the darn thing they are pushing? Lemme remind you!

Amendment to City Charter Prohibiting the City from Providing Certain Civil Rights

THEY. ARE. TRYING. TO. TAKE. AWAY. THE. VERY. LIBERTY. YOU. CHERISH!

So what if its coded in 'protected classes'. Race and Religion already are. If you campain against those protected classes because of the double standard thats fine. I suggest you try harder.

Cause if they win if you decide to go outside dressed and use your right to shop at those places that will take your money and you need to pee and because of these people you get arrested if you use the womens or possibly beaten to death for using the mens with the assailant being let off because they decide you provoked them by dressing or as is often the case the jury decides it was SELF DEFENCE on the murderers part! Or arrested for crossdressing in public and listed as a sex-offender for doing so just like the old days!

The liberty you cherish is what they are trying to take away from you!

His brother in law, a top New York attorney, enters the fray. By the time they're finished with the; town, county, and state, Carmen collects 27 million dollars and a PERMINANT change in the state restroom laws!

And FINALLY, the public becomes aware and sympathetic to this poor, harmless CD!
But, MORE IMPORTANT, every attorney in the country will quickly advise their political buddies, that trying to force CDs into public men's restrooms, may NOT be such a good idea!

Au la! Problem solved!:brolleyes: THIS ONE, anyway!

Like In California where a Transsexual tried to have their marriage remain legal?

Sorry but such lawsuits are part of why we have got as far as we have but these people can and have rolled back many of our gains and are trying to do so county by county, state by state, district by district removing many of the very laws that those lawyers would use!

Have you seen how courts treat Murderers of Transgender people? Seen many wrongful death suits?

Oh, wait.. i know of one. The 14 year old crossdresser shot in the head at school for being gay.. her parents (who lost custody of her for their neglect and abuse of the poor kid!) are suing the school teachers and principal, the shelter where he lived and the GLBT association that tried to help her out for not making him quit publicly crossdressing and being openly gay!

And most of the media are playing down the crossdressing part of it, saying the kid was just Gay, ignoring or downplaying the wearing makeup and high heels to school, that she wanted to wear the girls uniform but was not allowed, that she wanted to be called Letitia rather than Laawrance or Larry. Chances are Letitia was Transsexual, or maybe she was just the kind of out crossdresser of the next generation with the courage to be public that those in the closet are relying on to make the world more accepting one day!

Meanwhile there are liars lying in tv ads that our being out and open and treated as having equal rights will result in rape and child abuse! Using those lies to undo our rights!

We can't rely on the courts to fix things for us. We can't rely on the kids to do it all alone. We can't rely on a handfull of transsexuals who make up about 1/1000th of the population and most of those are stealth for fear of being murdered or discriminated against and dying like the marine and mayoral candidate freezing to death on the steps of a church!

If we want to stop this evil we need words of truth to reach the voters to fight the lies! We need to stop this tide of their victories! We need to win some of these fights! We need to stop them in their aims! To protect our rights! To win these votes!

Hate groups always lose out. Look at crap like the KKK, the wanna-be nazis, and whoever else tried to hold rights back from women or blacks or whoever.

These are currently winning
Women and Blacks did something about it! They did what I'm talking about! Some up front and others whose husbands or fear of being lynched stop them doing much still helped out where they could! Thats what stopped the KKK and neo-nazis!

Haters and hate groups are usually made of people who do not have enough education to really go anywhere with their silly goals like making it illegal for us to take a whizz. :heehee:

But they are convincing enough of the general populace with their lies that they have made it illegal for us to take a whizz in some parts of America! And they are spreading the tactic!

See here is the thing - we as TG do have some difficulties not faced by non-TGs, but not as much as some people act like. People don't understand us but on the whole we are not truely hated like some groups.

Thats why they are resorting to lies! But the lies are working!

OH and with the restroom issue, it is always coming up for us...
It is so silly, the simple solution - if en femme, use the ladies room, just go in when it is empty, take care of business, get out. I have never once seen a security guard or the gender police watching the restrooms.

Last year i think it was two GGs were thrown out of bathrooms by security becuse other women thought they were men! And a restaurant threw out a CD and banned all others from using the womens. With this panic merchant lies this will get worse unless we stop it! CDs will go to jail! They will be classed as sex offenders!

Politicians bringing up STUPID crap like this? Is this just to distract from the real issues? I guess since Cleetus and Billy-Bob are not legally allowed to marry their own kin, they are probably just bitter or something. :brolleyes:

The politicians aren't starting it. Organised hate groups are!

And if we keep silent and let this keep happening then we will lose our freedom!

We can campaign against politicians who are against us, we can hold rallies to gain support for our cause, we can do a lot of other things. But the one thing we cannot do, unless we ourselves are willing to change, is to change peoples minds. You cannot force people to think one particular way. Hitler tried to do that and look where it got him!

And just being open or out will not be enough fast enough!

The lies are on tv now on the radio now on youtube now on blogs now in the comments of news reports now and they are swaying voters now and the lies are changing minds now and rights are being lost now and laws are being changed against us now.

Lies sway minds. Truth can too!

Lie: allowing CDs to legally pee in womens bathrooms when en femme will result in rape and child molestation!

Truth (quoting Zoe Brain, intersex transsexual rocket scientist):

Here is a list up until 2007 of jurisdictions with similar laws, and the date they were passed:

2007 State of Colorado
State of Iowa
Lake Worth, FL
Milwaukee, WI
Palm Beach County, FL
State of Oregon
Saugatuck, MI
State of Vermont
West Palm Beach, FL
2006 Bloomington, IN
Cincinnati, OH
Easton, PA
Ferndale, MI
Hillsboro, OR
Johnson County, IA
King County, WA
Lansdowne, PA
Lansing, MI
State of New Jersey
Swarthmore, PA
State of Washington
West Chester, PA
2005 Gulfport, FL
State of Illinois
Indianapolis, IN
Lincoln City, OR
State of Maine
Northampton, MA
Washington, DC
2004 Albany, NY
Austin, TX
Beaverton, OR
Bend, OR
Burien, WA
Oakland, CA
Miami Beach, FL
Tompkins County, NY
2003 State of California
State of New Mexico
Carbondale, IL
Covington, KY
El Paso, TX
Ithaca, NY
Key West, FL
Lake Oswego, OR
Monroe Co., FL
Oakland, CA
Peoria, IL
San Diego, CA
Scranton, PA
Springfield, IL
University City, MO
2002 Allentown, PA
Baltimore, MD
Boston, MA
Buffalo, NY
Chicago, IL
Cook County, IL
Dallas, TX
Decatur, IL
East Lansing, MI
Erie County, PA
New Hope, PA
New York City, NY
Philadelphia, PA
Salem, OR
Tacoma, WA
2001 Denver, CO
Huntington Woods, MI
Multnomah Co., OR
State of Rhode Island
Rochester, NY
Suffolk County, NY
2000 Atlanta, GA
Boulder, CO
DeKalb, IL
Madison, WI
Portland, OR
1999 Ann Arbor, MI
Jefferson County, KY
Lexington-Fayette Co., KY
Louisville, KY
Tucson, AZ
1998 Benton County, OR
Santa Cruz County, CA
New Orleans, LA
Toledo, OH
West Hollywood, CA
York, PA
1997 Cambridge, MA
Evanston, IL
Olympia, WA
Pittsburgh, PA
Ypsilanti, MI
1996 Iowa City, IA
1994 Grand Rapids, MI
San Francisco, CA
1993 State of Minnesota
1992 Santa Cruz, CA
1990 St. Paul, MN
1986 Seattle, WA
1983 Harrisburg, PA
1979 Los Angeles, CA.
Urbana, IL
1977 Champaign, IL
1975 Minneapolis, MN

Number of cases of sexual predators using the law as a defence: 0

Number of cases of men exposing themselves in women's rooms and being convicted despite the law : At least 1 (Portland OR)

The one case where a man dressed as a woman entered a women-only space was in Maryland, and was a publicity stunt by the Citizens for Good Public Policy, a group with the same backers as the Citizens for Good Government in Gainesville.

We have truth, they have lies. But they aresaying their lies more than we are speaking the truth so they are winning!

We can win! We have the truth on our side, we have right on our side. there are enough CDs in the world to do somethign about it even of most do so from the closet!

But if we don't they will win cause they are winning now and will keep winning!

Ralph

03-18-2009, 10:48 PM

So my question is, with Crossdressers Civil Rights under direct organised orchestrated and thus far quite successful attack in several parts of the USA and spreading is it time we do something about it?

I read the other cd.com thread and the linked articles therein, and I'm still puzzled... what civil rights exactly are under attack? What are we forbidden from doing, or threatened to be forbidden, based on the legislation? Are they saying we are not allowed to dress how we want in public? Are we losing the right to peacably assemble, speak our mind, write what we want, worship as we choose (or not)?

Maybe I didn't read far enough, but so far all I saw was:
- GMs should not be allowed to enter women's restrooms even if they are dressed as women
- Companies, schools, etc. should not be required by law to hire CDs or other TG people

The first one may cause some awkwardness; we've discussed right here in River City the dilemma of which restroom to use when you are out dressed. I'd say that's a right best left up to the owner of the bathroom in question. I'd also further speculate that if you at least make an effort to pass and you just quietly go in, do your business and leave, nobody will give it a second thought.

The second one I totally agree with. I hate, really hate, the government telling me whom to hire and not hire. If I'm an honest person who really is willing to give everyone an equal chance regardless of race, religion, nationality, gender, etc. then I'm going to hire the best person for the job and not worry about the superficial characteristics; I don't need a law forcing that on me. If I'm a jerk and I discriminate against some group, I'm going to find a "legitimate" reason not to hire someone from that group no matter what laws are passed. "Gosh, yes, I would have loved to hire that crossdresser, but the person right before him... uh, her... had better qualifications. Nothing personal, really!" So the EO laws do nothing to prevent jerks from being jerks, and invite lawsuits against honest people who fail to hire a representative proportion of every possible minority group just because there aren't enough qualified people in every possible group.

Where was I? Oh, so back to my question... what specific civil rights are we losing here?

ralph

Kathi Lake

03-18-2009, 11:49 PM

Apparently, if we don't stand up and vote (for whatever) and protest and donate money, it's a slippery slope that will result in all of us being rounded up and carted off, it seems.

Shallow-minded people will always be with us. Shallow-minded people will sometimes even get elected (especially in shallow-minded constituencies). Over time, however, things change. A guy who happens to do a great job as a city councilman, and is well-liked in his area campaigns for mayor. His opponent outs him as a crossdresser. There is much wailing and gnashing of teeth. He gets elected anyway and continues to do a great job. Yes, the publicity is about the crossdressing at first, but over time, that blows over.

Another man campaigns for the US Senate. He is openly homosexual. He still wins. Did the shallow-minded people vote for him? Doubtful. The rest of the voters took him at face value, listened to his platform and voted him in - not because he was gay - but because he was the right man for the job.

Both of these examples have happened relatively recently here in the US. Would this have happened 30 years ago? 20? 10, even? Probably not. Over time (and not legislation), people have changed their attitudes. Time is what it takes. Trying to go all "Che" and foment a revolution is not the way to change people's hearts, IMO.

Will there sometimes be attempts at passing laws that attack the targets of the small-minded politicians? You bet! In every session of Congress, in every state Senate, in every town hall meeting, the small-minded ones will put forth their usual brand of hatred and bigotry. What happens to these? They usually die in committee or are laughed out of the chamber. Those kinds of ideas are dying out.

Now for the twist. I actually support a ruling saying that I can't use a women's bathroom - no matter how I'm dressed. Why? Because I have a daughter. I know that not all crossdressers are slavering child-molesters. Heck, I are one (the crossdresser part, not the molester part :)). As a woman, I don't believe that I would feel comfortable knowing that there was a man in there with me - no matter what his intentions. Just the fact that something could happen due to his dangly bits would give me pause. It is a danger, and therefore should be reduced, if possible.

Kathi

MissConstrued

03-18-2009, 11:56 PM

So, you're comfortably out to all your colleagues at work, then?

Pretty much. My work depends on my skills, not my appearance. At my construction job, I could show up in a flowered sundress, if I wanted to ruin it. But what would be the point? Right now, with construction in the slump, I'm doing some IT contracting. Again, skills.

I do realize, however, that not everyone is in my boat, and that most depend on employment with larger companies -- i.e. not self-employed or a semi-independent tradesman. Tough. I had jobs I didn't like, too. I decided employment wasn't for me, so I did something about it. I got fired a few times, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Sometimes you have to earn your freedom.

You dont think stopping putting them in jail for being gay helped?

Okay... this explanation might get a little political, but I think we're already there anyway... bear with me either way.

Putting people in jail for simply being gay is wrong. That was legislated morality. Those laws had no business being on the books anyway, in addition to their being unconstitutional (US Constitution), and wholly against the libertarian principles this country was founded on. Those were bad laws, and good riddance. Without those laws, gays then have the same rights as everyone else.

What I am against is specially protecting them in ways that are a)not constitutional; and b)makes it criminal not to like them.

The only equality that people can have is equality under law, and the only way to have that -- is to have exactly the same set of laws for everyone.

To that end, liberty is best protected by having fewer laws, rather than more. I don't see how you can argue with that.

So what if its coded in 'protected classes'. Race and Religion already are. If you campain against those protected classes because of the double standard thats fine. I suggest you try harder.

I do campaign against them, and always have. That's also why, for instance, I will always keep my businesses small, so I don't have to abide quotas/EEOC regulations. It's not that I wouldn't hire minorities, but I refuse to be dictated to on whom I must hire.

So... my point is equality under law. I'm against laws specially protecting any minority, and also against any laws that would specifically prohibit some minority from a right everyone else has. That's the reason behind constitutional representative government -- protecting everyone else from the tyranny of the majority. Tyranny of majority is the reason democracy is a very bad idea.

That said, what constitutional or common law right do men have to use women's restrooms? None.

Should there be a law against it? Common sense says it would be pointless. Certain lewd behaviors are illegal already, so that's not really a concern.

Would I obey such a law? Not bloody likely! The American patriot breaks laws he doesn't agree with. Speed limits. Marijuana prohibition. (Not that I smoke dope -- I don't -- but I don't buy into the phoney-baloney "drug war.")

Once again, Batty, I agree with you in principle, just not in tactic.

Satrana

03-19-2009, 12:05 AM

Blacks and gays are still getting beat up and pushed aside. laws or not.

Laws may be less effectual on how individuals treat each other. All we can do is punish those if we can catch them. Even the death penalty has no effect on reducing murder.

But laws can be very effective when directed at companies and institutions who must operate within the law. So passing a law that prohibits a company from firing me if I wear a skirt is a good thing.

Once laws are established then the sentiment behind the law slowly seeps into society. The law raises awareness that there is an issue to be addressed. So laws protecting TGs sends the right message and accelerates society's awareness and acceptance that it is wrong to discriminate against us.

kathtx

03-19-2009, 12:50 AM

I'd also further speculate that if you at least make an effort to pass and you just quietly go in, do your business and leave, nobody will give it a second thought.

I'd think so too, but unfortunately, we'd both be wrong. Sometimes even when you're quietly and harmlessly going about your business, some ignoramus will make a fuss, maybe call the cops, maybe assault you. Batty's point is precisely to protect us from harassment while quietly going about our business.

The second one I totally agree with. I hate, really hate, the government telling me whom to hire and not hire.

Is Batty suggesting that? Do existing antidiscrimination laws *force* you to hire anyone? They do not. They simply require that your hiring and firing decisions must be blind to certain factors. You are completely free to hire the best person for the job. You are completely free to fire someone for incompetence, insubordination, or because your budget needs cutting, or for any other legitimate business reason. What you can't do is fire someone because they become pregnant, get injured and require a wheelchair, or get married. You can't fire them because you find out they're Catholic,or Jewish, or atheist. Such things used to happen: for example, women used to be fired routinely upon getting engaged. Why do you think several generations of Jewish and Italian and Slavic immigrants Anglicized their names? These laws were put in place for a reason.

In some states, you can't fire someone simply because you discover they're gay or lesbian. In a very few states and cities, you can't fire someone simply because they are transgendered.

Again, you *can* fire someone if they are incompetent, insubordinate, or for any other valid *business* reason. No antidiscrimination law will change that; that is not their intention. Such laws are intended to protect people from arbitrary hiring and firing decisions based on prejudices having nothing to do with business.

Yes, there is a modest burden on you as an employer because you need to document incompetence, etc, before firing someone. But you'll need to do that self-protective step anyway, right? Anyone can try to find some reason to sue you if you fire them, so even if the employee in question is a straight white right-handed Presbyterian male you're at risk when firing him. If you fired him for accidentally burning down the store he won't win the case, and neither will the minority employee who's fired for documented cause.

So how, exactly, is the big bad government telling you who you've got to hire?

battybattybats

03-19-2009, 02:28 AM

what civil rights exactly are under attack?

Equality! Protections against discrimination in public accomadations as well as work etc exists for religion, race, sex, in many places sexuality, disability and more.

However for being a crossdresser or transsexual you can in those places without such protection be fired if you are outed for CDing at home! (this HAS happened to people). You can be denied rental accomodation and have nowhere to live! You can be denied access to emergency services such as resulted in the death of a former marine and mayoral candidate who died because of it freezing to death on the steps of a church!

These are Civil rights covered by the UN Decleration of Universal Human Rights, the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, The Yogyakarta Principles and they are considered Civil Rights when its referring to Religion, Race, Sex and Disability are, where they are also accorded to us, being taken away.

What are we forbidden from doing, or threatened to be forbidden, based on the legislation?

In most cases its about undoing or counteracting previously passed legislation. Making it legal to sack someone for being a CD, throw them out of rented accomodation for being a CD, throw them out of a store for being a CD, throw them out of public space for being a CD, Deny them access to public toilets for being a CD.

And all that covers Transsexuals (where do you think a transitioning transsexual should go to the toilet?) and the Intersex community too (if someone is a combination of male and female on a biological lvel, say they are an xx/xy mosaic chimera, where their body is made up of a mixture of male and female cells so they are literally half male and half female where should they pee? and before you suggest Intersex is rare it's worth pointing out that up to 1 in every 60 people has an Intersex condition!!!)

Are they saying we are not allowed to dress how we want in public?

Not if you want to go to the toilet! And don't think this is all about bathrooms, they have shown thats an excuse not the real aim. They will outlaw our dressing in public entirely if they can. But right now they are trying to undo any protections against discrimination that other groups, race, religion etc still enjoy!

Maybe I didn't read far enough, but so far all I saw was:
- GMs should not be allowed to enter women's restrooms even if they are dressed as women

Or even if they have been on hormones for years, have non-functioning genitals are in the required 2 year Real Life Test required by law as part of the transition prior to having surgery! So then they have nowehere to go.

- Companies, schools, etc. should not be required by law to hire CDs or other TG people

In most cases this is about public accomadation, not employment! And even where it is about employment its about firing not about hiring! That you can't fire someone if you discover they are a CD or TS just like you can't fire someone if you learn they are a Christian or Jew!

It's not forced-hiring! That would be affirmative action with quotas! This is not affirmative action with quotas! It's nothing like that!

Instead its where if a coworker spots a CD crossdressing in their own time in a non-work-related way you can't sack them for it. Thats totally different from being forced to hire crossdressers!

It's worth noting that in some of these cases it was decided to leave the bathroom issue OFF legislation and had nothing to do with Jobs either! Just not being able to kick people out of their homes or deny them access to public buildings and the like and even then the haters continued to lie about what the legislation would do, continued the bathroom lies.

Apparently, if we don't stand up and vote (for whatever) and protest and donate money, it's a slippery slope that will result in all of us being rounded up and carted off, it seems.

Will the organised groups keep trying this till they do cart us off? Why would we think they aren't? After all they support the criminalisation of gays and crossdressers etc in Uganda! http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9784

Lots of things get called 'slippery slopes' that aren't. But this one has a big darn signpost on it!

Over time, however, things change. A guy who happens to do a great job as a city councilman, and is well-liked in his area campaigns for mayor. His opponent outs him as a crossdresser. There is much wailing and gnashing of teeth. He gets elected anyway and continues to do a great job. Yes, the publicity is about the crossdressing at first, but over time, that blows over.

And City Planner Susan Stanton is still struggling to get a job after being sacked for Transitioning! Yes we have a mayor, and thats great! But we don't have only good stories. The lies told about us are working! Do you think people will keep electing us if they think we are all a risk to children?

Another man campaigns for the US Senate. He is openly homosexual. He still wins. Did the shallow-minded people vote for him? Doubtful. The rest of the voters took him at face value, listened to his platform and voted him in - not because he was gay - but because he was the right man for the job.

Almost half of transsexuals in much of the USA are unemployed! Yes most people are reasonable when they have good nformation. But when they are informed on a diet of lies then all they know is lies!

Both of these examples have happened relatively recently here in the US.

So was the sacking of Susan Stanton and a host of other bad things including a heap of hate crimes.. oh and people voting to deny TG people equal rights because of lies!

Would this have happened 30 years ago? 20? 10, even? Probably not. Over time (and not legislation), people have changed their attitudes.

And name one civil rights group that merely waited to get their rights? African Americans? no. Women? no. Aboriginals? no. Jews? no. Mormons? no. Jehovah's Witnesses? no. Maori's? no. Gays? no. Lesbians? no. Ghandi? no. Native Americans? no.

Anyone? Anyone at all? Cause every single one I ever heard of organised and campained and educated.

Time is what it takes.

Yeah this is claimed a lot, yet every group that has gained or moved closer to equality has been involved in activity to get that. Many non-violent but activity nonetheless!

Trying to go all "Che" and foment a revolution is not the way to change people's hearts, IMO.

Straw-man much? Cause WHO has suggested going all "Che"? No-one! All thats been mentioned is things like countering public lies with public truth. I mentioned an ad that counters the hate-lie-ad. I mentioned people psting pro-tg comments to counter ant-tg comments on blogs and online news articles. No-one has mentioned any violent or even non-violent protest!

Will there sometimes be attempts at passing laws that attack the targets of the small-minded politicians? You bet! In every session of Congress, in every state Senate, in every town hall meeting, the small-minded ones will put forth their usual brand of hatred and bigotry. What happens to these? They usually die in committee or are laughed out of the chamber. Those kinds of ideas are dying out.

This has been a successful tactic! so hiding behind 'it'll go away if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend its not there' aint gonna work!

Now for the twist. I actually support a ruling saying that I can't use a women's bathroom - no matter how I'm dressed. Why? Because I have a daughter. I know that not all crossdressers are slavering child-molesters. Heck, I are one (the crossdresser part, not the molester part :)). As a woman, I don't believe that I would feel comfortable knowing that there was a man in there with me - no matter what his intentions. Just the fact that something could happen due to his dangly bits would give me pause. It is a danger, and therefore should be reduced, if possible.

Riiiiight. Well I don't feel like googling it right now but did you know that LESBIANS RAPE TOO? AND THEY SOMETIMES MOLEST CHILDREN LIKE THE PRINCIPAL OF ONE AUSTRALIAN JEWISH GIRLS SCHOOL DID LAST YEAR IIRC?

Actually it's an important point so maybe i should find the link..... http://www.thewest.com.au/aapstory.aspx?StoryName=467546

So right now in all those places that let CDs and TSs into womens bathrooms we have 0 assaults by CDs. Some of those places legally let CDs into those bathrooms before I was born!
1975 Minneapolis, MN

Thats a very long time for something so feared to not happen!
Meanwhile most kids molested were raped by family members, then close friends after that, then authority figures like teachers and priests after that.
And where kids have been attacked in public toilets which has happened horrifyingly often it's not been CDs legally in the toilets its been other people legally and illegally in the toilets!

As far as I'm concerned its a good argument for all public toilets to be single-user-only with cctv cameras at their entrances!

Number of cases of sexual predators using the law as a defence: 0

So the data says your daughter is safer in a public ammenity with CDs than with GGs and her own family members!

Everoyne has to use the toilet. Personally I think the best option is gender-nuetral single-user disabled-access facilities which a lot of TG and Womens roups have been having success with cooperatively campaining for at several University Campuses.

Nevertheless transitioning transsexuals, pre-op and non-op transsexuals, Intersex people as well as the women who were thrown out of toilets for being too masculine and all CDs need places to use the toilet!

And these haters dont even care about that. they kept it up even in those places where the bathroom issues was not on the agenda at all!

mklinden2010

03-19-2009, 08:43 AM

Yesterday, the current economy came up in general conversation and an intern asked me, "So, the 80s were a lot like now?"

I said, "Oh, so far, they were worse. People walked away from houses left and right. In fact, at one time there were so many vacant houses in my town the teenagers couldn't vandalize them fast enough!"

Reading these posts, I get the same feeling I did talking to this intern, who is only about 26. She doesn't remember much about the 1980s because she wasn't even born when they started.

Nazis, the KKK, and polio "were already on their way out anyway"? Gays and lesbians have the freedom to not be beat, killed, or, short changed because MOST people are just so darned nice? The American founding fathers were Libertarians - and that was a good thing?

Nazism got widely unpopular after millions died from combat, disease, starvation, forced labor, and concentration camps. The KKK, the last defender of States Rights against the winning Union still exists to persecute individuals - not as a political party arguing general policy openly in elections and winning/loosing on it's own merits. Polio, in my childhood, still injured and destroyed millions and was never "on it's way" out and it would still be injuring/ending lives were it not simply vaccinated out of existence starting 50 years ago. And, the Founding Fathers were not Libertarians; they were Contrarians. But, if they were Libertarians, recall what a disaster the Articles of Confederation were for everyone and how that "starter government" had to be over-hauled with the more centralized and detailed Constitution fairly quickly.

Our current system in the USA is basically, "Of the people, for the people, and by the people." You want something done differently, get your ass out there and campaign for change. How liberating is that? Don't count on someone else doing what you want done, the way you want done. No, get out there and earn it and then work to keep it. Yes, send money, cast votes, organize your thoughts and persuade others...

Never forget it's a competitive system. At its base, it's a democratic mob and YOU can get harmed if "they" think and vote against you. On the other hand, they should worry about you, as anyone should worry about the competition.

The difference between winning and loosing, between plenty and poverty, between life and death is one vote, one penny, one breath. Never forget that the facts of life are uncaring, harsh, and to be feared. "Civilization," is an effort to counter the worse in nature, including our own nature. What "Civilization" is going to be depends on "the civilized" deciding what it is and doing something about that...

Yes, it's time to do something about your right to pee, your right to wear pants (or, not), and so forth - because it's always that time.

Ralph

03-19-2009, 03:43 PM

So how, exactly, is the big bad government telling you who you've got to hire?

I'm not saying they are. The linked article was by someone claiming that there were laws in the works requiring expansion of EEOC guidelines to include CDs, and *that person* was opposed to such laws. And the CD community responding to that person's complaints about EEOC laws complained that people opposing the EEOC laws were trying to revoke our civil rights. I'm just saying, I don't want EEOC protection and I don't see those who oppose EEOC as violating my civil rights.

I know, that's kinda convoluted. Another, even more convoluted way of putting it is to say that I'm opposed to the CDs who are opposed to the conservatives who are opposed to EEOC legislation. Or, um, something like that.

ralph

Kate Lynn

03-19-2009, 03:47 PM

I don't know what to do - I just know that crossdressers are treated like

second class lepers.

JoAnne Wheeler

I thought we all have human rights,why must there be rights for certain groups because they live a different lifestyle,or are of a different race,we all are human aren't we.
Just live your life for you and those who love you in return and quit playing the victim card.

marla01

03-19-2009, 04:31 PM

I think one thing everyone can do, even if they are in the closet, is support the Human Rights Campaign through donations or donating time.

http://www.hrc.org

Marla

Kate Lynn

03-19-2009, 04:55 PM

And educating the ignorant bigots.

battybattybats

03-19-2009, 09:52 PM

I'm not saying they are. The linked article was by someone claiming that there were laws in the works requiring expansion of EEOC guidelines to include CDs

Which one? The post I linked to has a heap of links showing Organised Groups cooperating together to spread a tactic of lies to harm the rights of all Transgender people focusing particularly on crosdressers and spreading their message around the world including spreading their message overseas including approving the arrest of crossdressers and Gays in Uganda as well as a radio talk show that actually encouraged violence against transgender people.

And the CD community responding to that person's complaints about EEOC laws complained that people opposing the EEOC laws were trying to revoke our civil rights.

Maybe you only read some of it? Because the majority of the fights are over public accomodation laws! People being thrown out on the street for being CDs and TSs. I bet you have no idea how much that's needed. Lets' see... from http://www.thesafespace.org/pdf/handout-transgender-youth-dating-violence.pdf
Reports indicate that 1 in 5 transgender individuals “need or are at risk of needing” homeless shelter assistance.

I'm just saying, I don't want EEOC protection and I don't see those who oppose EEOC as violating my civil rights.

Look at it this way. Currently there are protections for race, religion and others. People who get those don't want you getting them for being a CD! Thats inequality. Double-standard. It makes you a 2nd class citizen. Even if you oppose the practice in general are you willing to allow the double-standard to continue?

I know, that's kinda convoluted. Another, even more convoluted way of putting it is to say that I'm opposed to the CDs who are opposed to the conservatives who are opposed to EEOC legislation. Or, um, something like that.

Consider this a moment.

People are telling harmful lies to oppose these laws. Even if you don't agree with the employment portion of these laws or even any of them surely its important for you to oppose the lies! Let them use truth to undo these laws, let them undo all the laws protecting race and religion together at the same time not just for us. Oppose the inequality and the lies?

Surely that fits your principles and politics? To hold these people accountable for their harmful lies? For their double-standard?

You don't have to agree with the law to need to oppose the tactics used against them that will harm you or the double standard that maintains protection on religion but not on gender expression!

I think one thing everyone can do, even if they are in the closet, is support the Human Rights Campaign through donations or donating time.

http://www.hrc.org

Marla

Ummm... I'd suggest not! HRC has a horrificly poor record with TG issues. They dropped gender from the last attempt at ENDA despite a recorded promise not to! There are many other groups many people may consider serve their needs better than HRC. Stonewall UK is another many say is to be avoided with their support of Julie Bindel.

If your going to support a group check their record on supporting us! There are groups for TG kids and their parents, for Transgender Military Veterans too. There are local groups directly fighting against these prganised hate groups.

I thought we all have human rights,

Few countries have fully implemented the Universal Human Rights as legally binding even 60 years on let alone recognising their obligations to TG righjts under the Yogyakarta Principles.

Europe is doing fairly well and improving, Australia has no federal bill of rights at all the UK has an advisory bill of rights and some access to the European courts but not too much. The USA has a very old definition of rights and has gone from the world leader to pretty far down the Human Rights ladder.

why must there be rights for certain groups because they live a different lifestyle,or are of a different race,we all are human aren't we.

They aren't 'certain rights for certain people' or 'special rights'. This is a common belief but solidly untrue. the problem comes from 'narrow interpretations' of wording of rights used to render judgements contrary to universal equality. A good example is the need for the Yogyakarta Principles.
http://www.yogyakartaprinciples.org/principles_en_principles.htm

Not one of those is a 'new' or 'certain' or 'special' right.

They are simply the same rights as the 60 year old UN Declearation on Universal Human Rights as they relate to Sexuality and Gender. Not one is a new right, merely explaining how the old right relates to gays and crossdressers and transsexuals etc.

However people applying rights unequally means that often existing rights need to be restated to explain them. Thats not creating a new right, its simply pointing out in law that they must stick to equality.

Example. Everyone has the right to marry. A narrow definition says that its ok to force a couple to divorce if the husband transitions! Because allowing a man to become a woman and stay married to a woman suddenly becomes same-sex marriage. A proper understanding says of course same sex couples csn marry, just like atheists can marry! That is why these things need restating in law to stop people redefining existing rights to ensure inequality.

It's not about new or special rights. It's about underlining that the right aplies to people that it has been excluded from.

It's about ensuring equality.

Just live your life for you and those who love you in return and quit playing the victim card.

And go to jail when you get arrested for peeing in a public toilet. Yeah thats going to work! Get thrown out of your rented house when the landlord learns your a crossdresser even though the Satanist next door can't be thrown out because his religion is protected!

Maybe you should look at the facts and figures! Stop playing the 'hide your head in the sand like an ostritch' card!

Name one thing, just onesingle thing that anyone is talking about here that is not already there for religion?

We are simply talking about keeping the same protection for crossdressers that Satanists Witches Voodoo Priests and Muslims and of course Christians have in America today.

So tell me, why is it appropriate that a crossdresser should lose or not have the same rights as a Satanist?

sissystephanie

03-19-2009, 10:27 PM

battybattybats

03-19-2009, 11:17 PM

Battybatbats,

I said in my earlier post that I agreed with a lot of what you said. I still do, but the more you write the more I wonder just what your agenda is!

When you say the U.S.A. is falling way behind in Human Rights, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Sure I don't. And on what are you basing that claim on? Checked the reports of the NGOs every year on human rights issues globally have you? Read your share of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reports? Been involved in any Human Rights Comissions consultations?

USA only 2 days ago decided to sign up to the statement calling for the decriminalising of homosexuality worldwide. While these countries signed quite some time ago... like months! December last year in fact!

The USA used to be a Human Rights leader. Now it's a Human Rights Follower! Sure that could change and I hope it will. but right now the USA is following in the example of this case:

Albania,
Andorra,
Argentina,
Armenia,
Australia,
Austria,
Belgium,
Bolivia,
Bosnia and Herzegovina,
Brazil,
Bulgaria,
Canada,
Cape Verde,
Central African Republic,
Chile,
Colombia,
Croatia,
Cuba,
Cyprus,
Czech Republic,
Denmark,
Ecuador,
Estonia,
Finland,
France,
Gabon,
Georgia,
Germany,
Greece,
Guinea-Bissau,
Hungary,
Iceland,
Ireland,
Israel,
Italy,
Japan,
Latvia,
Liechtenstein,
Lithuania,
Luxembourg,
Malta,
Mauritius,
Mexico,
Montenegro,
Nepal,
Netherlands,
New Zealand,
Nicaragua,
Norway,
Paraguay,
Poland,
Portugal,
Romania,
San Marino,
Sao Tome and Principe,
Serbia,
Slovakia,
Slovenia,
Spain,
Sweden,
Switzerland,
the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia,
Timor-Leste,
United Kingdom,
Uruguay,
and Venezuela.

Look at all those Third World countries! Look at the Former Soviet states!

Yes, there has been problems during the war in Iraq. But in time of was, some human rights may have to take a backseat. As a military veteran I speak from experience!

And as someone who knew holocaust survivors I tell you you that the rights which are suspended in war are very clearly defined and that in times of war human rights cannot be diluted beyond those and that we executed plenty of people after WW2 on that very principle! Besides, thats not what I'm talking about (though Habeus Corpus being suspended, extraordinary rendition and complicity in torture is a shame that will stain many modern democracies including my own for at least a generation!) as I'm talking about civil rights so we can leave the war stuff at the door ok?

But the Bill of Rights, as part of our Constitution, gives us Inalienable Rights which can only be changed by changing the Constitution. That is not likely to happen any time soon.

And they were magnificent when first drafted but are well behind modern undertsanding of human rights, they have been diluted plenty by narrow interpretation after narrow interpretation and just cause the beautiful document says those rights are inalienable sure hasn't stopped them from being alienated from the very start for slaves, for women and for same-sex marriages either!

Having many friends and relatives in the USA or with duel American-Australian citizenship i hope the USA returns to a position of world leadership on human rights and returns to strong protection of it's citizens equal rights.

Now to the problem which seems to be on a lot of peoples minds. Which bathroom to use? A man wearing a dress is still a man!! He should use the men's room, unless there is a unisex or family bathroom.

And a transsexual? An Intersex AIS sufferer? An XXY Chromosome holder? An XX/XY Mosaic Chimera?

Sorry but the reality of biology means there is no clear distinct universal definition of male and female! merely a collection of traits with bimodal distribution.

Biological reality! 1 in 60 approximately are Intersex! Maybe even more than that! Not wholly male or female!

The state and bussinesses provide public amenities as an essential service! Clearly there are more than just 'male' amd 'female'.

If he feels like he might get beat up, or something else, then maybe he should not be wearing a dress out in public.

So the victim is to blame for being the target of violence? You just argued for giving in to terrorism. Congratulations on your speech Mr Chamberlain.

Personally, although I wear no makeup or wig, I frequently go out in public wearing a skirt. if I have to go, I use the mens room. Why not, I am a man! I personally see no problem wih a law saying that only women can use the ladies room

Sigh.
Most of these laws are about rented housing firstly. Even when bathrooms were removed from them the haters kept the lies up anyway. Secondly what about transsexuals? What about those who don't get all the surgeries? or who can't afford them? What about the transsexuals who have to live in every way as a woman for 1-2 years before allowed their surgery? What about FtM transsexuals who far less often get genital surgery? What about Intersex people?

Sorry but simplistic arguments hurt lots of people!

That is not taking anybody's rights away. It is guaranteeing the rights to women!

What rights is that guaranteeing for women? Please explain that!

sterling12

03-20-2009, 12:40 AM

"Just like polio had nearly run its course before the mandated vaccines came along."

Sorry Missy your dead wrong about your example of polio. I was about 6 years old when The Vaccine became available. Myself, and about 99% of the population of children were inoculated within a matter of months. (And it wasn't mandated, it was voluntary)

Why? Because every year before the introduction of The Vaccine; Polio was a scourge that condemned tens of thousands of children to lives of paralysis, often wasting away inside Iron Lungs that had to breath for them because Polio had zapped the muscles in their chests that they would have used for breathing. Before The Polio Vaccine was introduced Polio was an annual summer event....IT HAD NOT RUN ITS COURSE!

My Mother was like thousands of other Mothers; she went out and walked The Neighborhood, collecting nickels, dimes, or whatever people could give for "The March of Dimes." People could and did give their all for the effort. And why did they do that? Because it was a clear and present danger, because they had seen a President who had been felled in the prime of his life by polio, and between private charity, government encouragement, and people mobilizing, they got that job done!

My point? We also face a clear and present danger. Most Germans in The 1930's thought that all those strange men in Brown Shirts were a joke. They failed to fight a growing danger...and they paid the price.

If we just sit around and do nothing, we will also pay a very dear price. Currently we work for anti-discrimination laws so that an employer can't just fire you for being "different" and it makes That Employer uncomfortable. Every time some "people" decide that TG Folk are "not biblical" and work to take away something as small as restroom access, we lose a small battle in a much bigger war. We get portrayed as perverts and molesters, and you want to stand by and let them do that? If you don't take a stand, don't be surprised when they get the upper hand. Maybe someday they will get enough power to come knocking at your door...just like those guys in The Brown Shirts eventually did.

One last thing to note. You claim yourself to be a long-standing Libertarian. If you DON'T make a stand everyday in the Defense of Liberty, try to protect everybody's rights, I'll just bet you that some of the first people they would start to come for....you guessed it, The Libertarians!

Peace and Love, Joanie

kathtx

03-20-2009, 04:26 AM

When you say the U.S.A. is falling way behind in Human Rights, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm afraid Batty knows very well what she's talking about. The USA has fallen behind the rest of the developed world, particularly in regards to legal protection for women and LBGT people.

For example: which major countries have not ratified the Convention for Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women? Answer: Iran, Sudan, Somalia, and the USA. Good company we keep, eh?

As another example, 220 years after the ratification of the US Constitution, we have still not amended it with a guarantee of equal rights for women, and we've not even discussed a guarantee of equal rights for LGBT people. On the contrary, in 2004, it was seriously proposed that same-sex marriage be banned via a constitutional amendment; this would have been the first time in US history that the constitution was amended to deny rights to a class of people.

Women have equality under the law in, for example: Canada, Mexico, Japan, and the European Union. Gay marriage is legal in Canada, Belgium, Spain, the Netherlands, and Norway, but in only a handful of states in the US. Still think we're the leaders?

Now admittedly civil rights encoded in law don't imply civil rights in practice: Venezuela and Russia, for instance, might have splendid constitutions but in practice voters are intimidated, opposition candidates jailed, journalists murdered. So let's stick to countries like ours where the laws are more-or-less obeyed by the government and where civil rights on paper mean something in practice: the USA, the Commonwealth countries, most of Europe, Japan, S. Korea, India, Mexico, Turkey, a few others here and there. In that company, the US is somewhere in the middle of the pack, both in terms of laws and in terms of cultural equality. Considering that the US was 40 years ahead of Britain, say, in establishing freedom of religion (British Catholics couldn't vote until 1829), and almost 200 years ahead of Spain, Greece, and Brazil, say, in having a constitutional government at all (Gen. Franco having remained dead since 1975), we've fallen shamefully behind our peers.

So, yeah, let's all pat ourselves on the back for being a more just, equal, and free country than Iran, Venezuela, and Russia, but let's not lose sight of the fact the we've been overtaken by much of the world.

But in time of war, some human rights may have to take a backseat. As a military veteran I speak from experience!

On the contrary: wartime is precisely when human rights matter the most. In wartime it's easy even for good people to rationalize evil in the name of expediency, which is why we need to be extra watchful of what we do. Laws are needed most when we're tempted to break them.

And as for the necessity for human rights to "take a back seat": regardless of morality, in hindsight, how many of the human rights violations committed in the 20th century had actual military utility? Was jailing Bertrand Russell and Eugene Debs for dissent during WWI useful for the British or American war efforts? No. Was the internment of thousands of loyal Japanese-Americans militarily useful? No. Did the Germans get one inch of military advantage from the massacre of American POWs at Malmedy? No. Did the Japanese get a single piece of useful information from waterboarding the captured submarine ace Dick O'Kane? No. My prediction is that with the perspective of history, the "necessary" violations of human rights since 2001 will be regarded not only as militarily useless, but as strategically counterproductive.

MissConstrued

03-20-2009, 12:08 PM

Polio, in my childhood, still injured and destroyed millions and was never "on it's way" out and it would still be injuring/ending lives were it not simply vaccinated out of existence starting 50 years ago.

For you, and sterling12:

Dread diseases do run a course as immunity builds up in the population. If it didn't work that way, Europe would have been completely wiped out by the Black Plague. But it wasn't, and today, every descendant of Europeans is immune to that particular disease. Yes, it killed a lot of people -- everyone who wasn't immune, of course. But it ran its course, no?

My assertion came from a presentation given by an epidemiologist. She had statistics and graphs that clearly showed a steep decline in new polio cases two years before the vaccine was introduced, and by all indications, it would have been gone in another 5-10 years by itself. The vaccine probably helped, but it wasn't entirely responsible. I wish I could provide a link, but I can't recall where I found it.

And, the Founding Fathers were not Libertarians; they were Contrarians. But, if they were Libertarians, recall what a disaster the Articles of Confederation were for everyone and how that "starter government" had to be over-hauled with the more centralized and detailed Constitution fairly quickly.

No, they were not "Libertarians." They couldn't have been, as there was no such party. What I said was: this country was founded on libertarian (lower-case "l") principles. Am I wrong?

And they were magnificent when first drafted but are well behind modern undertsanding of human rights, they have been diluted plenty by narrow interpretation after narrow interpretation and just cause the beautiful document says those rights are inalienable sure hasn't stopped them from being alienated from the very start for slaves, for women and for same-sex marriages either!

Slaves/blacks were not considered human anywhere at that time, not just here, and indentured servitude was quite common. Jefferson, Franklin, and quite a number of the other early American thinkers didn't like slavery, but it was a powerful institution at the time. It, too, would have shuffled off into history eventually, without the treachery of Lincoln. Contrary to what you've likely been taught, the "Civil" War had absolutely nothing to do with slavery. Emancipation was an afterthought.

As for same-sex marriages and the Constitution? There's nothing in it about marriage at all. It was never meant to be a government-sanctioned activity. It was a church-sanctioned activity. Government had no business in marriage until the first marriage licenses were issued -- for the purpose of preventing mixed-race unions. Then, when the tax laws, post-1916, were written to treat singles and couples differently, the government intrusion was complete. Marriage is not a right -- it's a way for government to meddle in people's lives, and I'm all for getting government out of it entirely. Then it's up to individual churches (who are free per Amendment 1) to marry whoever they wish.

What you are after, Batty, is more laws and more government meddling, for the purpose of giving more people more rights. Do you just not realize how ridiculous that proposition is?

battybattybats

03-20-2009, 01:53 PM

While diseases are interesting (I studied units in microbiology actually and it shard not to respond on heaps of points) and Enlightenment Philosophy is a great subject too (hint: there was plenty of Egalitarians involved in various publications on the rights of man leading up to the US bill)....

It's all rather off-topic!

Slaves/blacks were not considered human anywhere at that time,

Really? Got something you can cite for that one? The first law of the founding of the british colony of Australia was an anti-slavery one and that was just after the US revolution (the new place to send prisoners too). And Governer Phillip considered the Aboriginals human, it was only later governers that determined them as non-human.

And don't forget Women! Mary Walstoncroft wrote about the Rights of Women.. she was mother of Mary Shelley who wrote Frankenstein. But it was only after a great deal of time later when finally women began to act by doorknocking and marches and court challenges and petitions and hunger strikes and introducing new laws that women got the vote and other equal rights!

not just here, and indentured servitude was quite common.
Jefferson, Franklin, and quite a number of the other early American thinkers didn't like slavery, but it was a powerful institution at the time.

Common and powerful don't stop it being hypocracy.

As for marriage laws don't forget the anti-polygamy ones :) And anti gay sex laws existed very early on.

What you are after, Batty, is more laws and more government meddling, for the purpose of giving more people more rights.

What I am after is for us to speak out against lies that hurt us. Maybe you are having cognition troubles?

Did I say you should get people to vote FOR these protections? No, I said you should oppose lies and oppose double-standards whereas some get extra protection but not others! They are not trying to stop all such protections, just to remove them from US!

Lemme restate it with added emphasis:

Consider this a moment.

People are telling harmful lies to oppose these laws. Even if you don't agree with the employment portion of these laws or even any of them surely its important for you to oppose the lies! Let them use truth to undo these laws, let them undo all the laws protecting race and religion together at the same time not just for us. Oppose the inequality and the lies?

Surely that fits your principles and politics? To hold these people accountable for their harmful lies? For their double-standard?

You don't have to agree with the law to need to oppose the tactics used against them that will harm you or the double standard that maintains protection on religion but not on gender expression!

If there is injustice there is need to end injustice. There is an injustice.
So why should you not oppose the hypocracy of these people attempting to remove these laws just from us and not from Satanists and Christians, Asians Blacks and Whites, Women, The Disabled etc?

Do you just not realize how ridiculous that proposition is?

Considering its working in countries all over the world, worked at improving things for blacks, for women, for the disabled then what is ridiculous is to say that something which works is ridiculous whereas something that does not work is not!

But importantly even if you have issues with improving Human Rights legislation to fix its many gaping holes surely you cannot deny the imperative upon you to oppose the lies being used to try and undo TG rights while still leaving the same protection for race and sex and religion?

So rather than wasting both our time with your miminalist government ideology Vs detailed provisions arguments why not actually concede that there is an inequality that is counter to EITHER ideology and that can and should be oppossed by us all cooperatively! Especially the harmful lies used to try and sway the voters to take rights off us but leave them on others?

These forms of protections already exist. By all means seek to remove all of them if you wish, but by oppossing these in particular you are only hurting us by ensuring we remain unequal!

You can argue for ridding all such more fsirly by arguing for ridding Christians from protection for being fired for being christian than you can for arguing we should not have the same protection as christians!

So then why not make your posts here practical by coming up with ways that libertarians can do something to help TG people within their ideology?

Huh?

Be part of the solution maybe?

Or do you just want to use this as a soapbox for your ideological views while CDs get arrested, lose their homes, their jobs and get called pedophiles and what acceptance we have got in the last 40 years gets undone?

I dare you I challenge you to come up with ways that fit into your ideology that will improve acceptance of TG people and undo injustice towards TG people and stop these organisations who are trying to ensure we are not equals so that you and peopl who fit your ideological iews can actually help us rather than the enemy who hate us?

And I dare you to put your ideas to work!

C'mon then. Try solving problems rather than attacking people who are trying to solve them!

So then. What should the libertarians do to create equality for transgender people? What are you personally doing now or will you do? Report it here. I'm quoted in Human Rights reports and am writing to federal politicians in my own country. What are you doing/proposing/will do?

MissConstrued

03-20-2009, 02:37 PM

So rather than wasting both our time with your miminalist government ideology Vs detailed provisions arguments why not actually concede that there is an inequality that is counter to EITHER ideology and that can and should be oppossed by us all cooperatively! Especially the harmful lies used to try and sway the voters to take rights off us but leave them on others?

I think you are a little confused as to what a *right* is. Our rights are enumerated in our Constitution and its first 10 amendments, called the Bill of Rights.

There is no right to a job. There is no right to housing. There is no right to marriage. And there is certainly no right to use one restroom or another.

The phrase in the Declaration originally read "life, liberty, and property." It was later changed to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Note, it does not guarantee happiness... just the right to pursue it.

So then. What should the libertarians do to create equality for transgender people? What are you personally doing now or will you do?

Same thing I always have -- to spread the idea that everyone should be able to live their lives however they wish, so long as they do not interfere with anyone else's rights to life, liberty, and property. I can't see how getting more people on board with this idea could be anything but good.

I fully realize that we are having problems here. The District of Criminals is running rampant. Our government no longer even pretends to obey the Constitution. It is no longer a government of, by, and for the people. It's out of control with corruption and tyranny, and our new puppet leader isn't going to change that. We are desperately in need of a major overhaul, to say the least. Getting worked up over a little thing like restrooms amounts to bailing the Titanic with a thimble.

marla01

03-20-2009, 03:18 PM

I think you are a little confused as to what a *right* is. Our rights are enumerated in our Constitution and its first 10 amendments, called the Bill of Rights.

There is no right to a job. There is no right to housing. There is no right to marriage. And there is certainly no right to use one restroom or another.

Certainly there is, it's written in black and white in the statues of Gainesville for example.

I think you are confusing all forms of rights with Constitutional Rights. In the case of Gainesville, the city council has passed certain laws that grant certain rights to non-discrimination. These were not Constitutional Rights, these were rights granted by statute. The election coming up in Gainesville is to repeal these rights.

Now whether these rights should have been granted or not certainly is up to debate, but there are individual rights sitting on the chopping block.

Marla

mklinden2010

03-20-2009, 03:40 PM

Miss,

I don't think many people are interested in waiting around while things like polio knock off their children on it's way to burning itself out - which, despite some declines here and there, might take another 1000 years. Who knows? After all, aren't we all supposed to have flying cars by now too?

Similarly, I'm not willing to be drafted into a long-term program to make the human race lead resistant. I see no point in getting shot in the head so that someone with a clipboard can say, "Well, we're one closer to wiping out this lead sensitivity thing. Next!"

I don't know if the so-called Founding Fathers were libertarians, but they were certainly contrarians, according to the general mindset and government at the time.

And, yep, that Lincoln guy...

That war was about State Rights vs. Federal Rights and actually kicked off when a State wanted to occupy Federal property. The Federal government can't be the Federal government if anyone, France, Brazil, or, the CSA can just call "dibs" on it and walk in.

The shots on Federal Troops, there to protect Federal property, made it pretty clear that it was going to be a war of steel and not words from that point on. There were other issues, but firing cannons at people set up how things were going to get decided.

Lincoln's motives in freeing the slaves were mixed, not the least of which, apparently, was to give the entire costly and bloody thing a better justification than just who gets to fly what flag over which fort or who owns what mineral rights where.

Slaves were considered property in the South before the war, and, it was this fear of loosing "a way of life and property" that worried the Southerners and got them into a shooting mood in the first place.

Freeing the slaves in the Union occupied areas removed property (wealth and productivity) from those areas, and may have encouraged slaves to leave the fields and workshops... And, maybe even join the Union cause... In any event, it was also largely political as the anti-slavery lobby, as we'd call it now, wanted something done for their interests and Lincoln factored their soon-to-be-needed votes into his actions.

But, on the other hand, announcing that the Federal government was going to be taking property and undermining the entire Southern economy - based on slave labor - may have actually prolonged the War as everyone could then say:

"See... We told you this is what they were up to all along! Charge!"

TSchapes

03-20-2009, 07:27 PM

Is it time to do something?

I certainly don't think we should throw in the towel as it sounds like some from here want to do. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

If it is time then what should we do and how?

I believe things are happening and I think it's happening more at the local level than at the national level.

And, I don't know how we are going to progress unless:

CD's accept themselves and quit feeling guilty about what they do
They at least come out to their SO
Defend us in everyday conversation, instead of being silent
They quit wining about how society doesn't treat them right, when they haven't done at least the three previous things!

I have found that the best way for me to make things better is to out myself to people. I'm a well respected person, and when people find out that yes a "normal", "stable" person cross-dresses and takes it seriously, they respect that, and I win one more person over. Winning hearts and minds!

And if it is not then why is it not?

I see no reason not to. I do think we need to focus. I know someone thought that bathroom rights were trivial, but I don't think that was true when we had bathrooms separated for blacks and whites. And every time I bring up TG rights at work, the damn bathroom thing raises it's ugly head. Besides, all these hate groups are using the unisex bathroom as their poster boy of perversion.

So, say I take up the cause to having safer bathrooms, and yes there is a whole 48 page document Peeing in Peace (http://www.transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/PIP%20Resource%20Guide.pdf) about TG and bathrooms. This is something a local group (like Pink Essence) could take up. Or I could just mention to the manager at Starbucks that they change the two bathrooms to unisex bathrooms (like they do now at the hospital). It would mean the cost of new signs. But just think, if two women or two men had to go at the same time, it would benefit them too! Everybody wins!

-Tracy

Kaelin

03-20-2009, 07:57 PM

Every TV show I've seen that dealt with crossdressing has essentially treated as a freak show/comedy play. Many movies dealing with it are along the same lines.

It's only recently that many shows have "the homosexual person", and short of a mass transgender rights movement (unlikely since it's such a diverse range of issues and only a very small number are 'out') I really don't see any of this changing any time soon for us.

It would be nice if we had an 'out' campaign of sorts (promoting transgender issues as it's own cause, not just piggy backing on LBG). No one should be outed against their will, but a lot more of us have to bravely step out (at least in those places where doing so isn't likely to result in personal harm).

Sadly it seems the number of us in any one given area is fairly small, so coming out doesn't tend to do much good. Learning to accept yourself is a good first step, but difficult in the face of so much opposition (both societal and people you are close to in some cases).

JulieK1980

03-20-2009, 11:28 PM

I'm afraid that Batty is absolutely correct! The U.S. HAS fallen behind in human rights. As a war veteran I CAN tell you, we have done some very unconsionable things. I know this because I've experienced them first hand. The moment you forget what a human life is, and what it means, and become dehumanized to torture, and death, you become NO better than what the Nazis were when they committed the holocaust. Thankfully some very intelligent people have realized this and are begining to take steps to correct these problems, but that doesn't help those that have already suffered.

battybattybats

03-22-2009, 08:41 AM

I think you are a little confused as to what a *right* is. Our rights are enumerated in our Constitution and its first 10 amendments, called the Bill of Rights.

The USA constitution and Bill of Rights did not magicly come into existence by itself with no precedent nor influence! It came from philosophy. Principles and arguments and ideas across many nations. It is from philosophy that those rights emerged. It is philosophy that grants rights and it is Bills and charters that merely form a measure of protection of rights which exist with or without the bill or charter.

Even if a right goes utterly against the law the right is right, the law is wrong And vice versa. As was determined with WW2 and the postwar executions and imprisonments for crimes against humanity. And the need to further ennumerate and explain those Universal Human Rights brought people of many nations together after WW2 and the result is the UN Decleration that is 60 years old last december.

You need to learn about the history of rights and learn where they come form yoursellf! They did not start nor end at the USAs bill of rights!

They come from philosophy and these principles have continued to develop over the centuries!

There is no right to a job. There is no right to housing. There is no right to marriage. And there is certainly no right to use one restroom or another.

I suggest you take another look at the Universal Human Rights. http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

The rights regarding work

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

housing

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Marriage

Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

As for bathrooms etc see the Yogyakarta Principles http://www.yogyakartaprinciples.org/ and consider them in the same light as race-segregated public water fountains and bathrooms etc.

Same thing I always have -- to spread the idea that everyone should be able to live their lives however they wish, so long as they do not interfere with anyone else's rights to life, liberty, and property. I can't see how getting more people on board with this idea could be anything but good.

And yet it doesn't seem to be enough. Not even for Race or Women as the stats show let alone for us as these haters show. So how can you and other libertarians do more?

I have a point for you. The False Meritocracy.
Two people are about to have a fight. One has bare fists and has never fought before, the other has a sword and the training to use it. An adjudicator comes in and applies the same rules to both parties. Result? The one with the advantage from the start wins.

The False Meritocracy, Fake Equality is where people have advantage from the outset where applying the same rules equally merely protects INEQUALITY not Equality! When people have the same opportunity the cream rises to the top but when they do not then you merely entrench pre-existing power.

I fully realize that we are having problems here. The District of Criminals is running rampant. Our government no longer even pretends to obey the Constitution. It is no longer a government of, by, and for the people. It's out of control with corruption and tyranny, and our new puppet leader isn't going to change that. We are desperately in need of a major overhaul, to say the least. Getting worked up over a little thing like restrooms amounts to bailing the Titanic with a thimble.

This is about ensuring people are treated as equals in all matters of public accomadation, services etc. As such it covers far more than bathrooms. But it is the bathrooms on which the haters base their arguments.

This is about massive issues facing TG people. It's about emergency domestic violence shelters. It's about being thrown from houses or denied an equal chance at a place to live. Those are issues which have cost lives! TG people are amongst the most disadvantaged. Suffering serious inequality because of biased laws.

Individual advocacy for libertarianism and/or egalitarianism can indeed be important. But do you think you can find enough libertarians to have a direct positive effect on TG issues? If so then shouldn't you be campaining to get other libertarians onside?

We are being attacked by organised haters using lies. Complacency can only hurt us. As will false meritocracy that makes a pretense on paper of equality but ignores the reality of inequality of opportunity as was experienced by many minorities and women even after their right to own property and vote was secured and which is demonstrated by the vast unemployment rate of TSs, the TDOR, the homelessness rate etc etc etc.

If there is some libertarian way to deal with that (and I reccomend you consider Rawl's tool the Veil of Ignorance and consider not just Overt ineqaulaity but the rest of inequality of opportnunity when you try and find one) then i would like to hear it and I think you should certainly propagate such a notion.

But whether you agree with modern Universal Humna Rights or not do you not agree that these peoples lies need to be oppossed?

So then, how can you contribute to that further?

Pink Person

03-22-2009, 10:49 AM

I am awestruck by Batty’s devotion to this topic. Many of us can’t even get our family members to refrain from abusing us. It seems like a much more difficult task to avoid other larger social abuses or prevent them from happening. Is there a universal solution to this problem that will sway everyone to a way of thinking that will benefit us? I think Batty has correctly suggested that philosophy will help us. I think new gender philosophies are needed that will be durable enough to support comprehensive reforms in social thought and behavior. Before we get them, and before they are widely adopted, I am comforted in knowing that Batty, and people like Batty, are willing to raise a street fight for reform with any weapon that is currently available. This thread has inspired me to want to do more.

MissConstrued

03-22-2009, 12:33 PM

I have a point for you. The False Meritocracy.
Two people are about to have a fight. One has bare fists and has never fought before, the other has a sword and the training to use it. An adjudicator comes in and applies the same rules to both parties. Result? The one with the advantage from the start wins.

Why the bloody f*cking hell is that my problem?

That's why they said "God made man, Sam Colt made them equal."

You seem to have the idea that every human being must have the exact same everything. Think about it. If everyone were to be given the same chance to attend Harvard or MIT, then we may as well draw from the entire population by lottery! Pray tell, what would that do, but drag them down!

In my school years, I would frequently win various academic competitions. Did I have an advantage? My parents saw to it that I spent a lot of time at the library. We weren't rich. The library was an advantage, yes. But did everyone else in town have that library to use? Yes! It's not my fault that they didn't. Nor would it be my problem if a blind kid couldn't avail himself of that broadness of education. You want to poke my eyes out so I won't have an unfair advantage over the blind kid!

The library represents equality of opportunity; equality under law. There's no way to guarantee equality of outcome. Some people are naturally advantaged; some disadvantaged. Life isn't fair. Go have a good cry, and get over it.

As for the U.N., I have no use for it. It's even more meaningless and ineffectual than the US Congress, and should be dismantled. Try insisting on your "Universal Human Rights" in China or Zimbabwe. Hell, you can't have "universal human" anything anyhow -- there's no universal human. "World government for world peace" is sucker bait.

Pink Person

03-22-2009, 06:26 PM

The scope of individual human ability isn’t as broad as some people think. The absolute power of a single person is smaller than small. We are all weak, insignificant, mundane, and imperfect in an absolute sense. The best of us are relatively better than the worst, but I wouldn’t hold a parade to celebrate the difference.

The real power in the world comes from social groups and social relationships. Of course, no one likes to attribute their power and advantages to other people. A study of the perverse correlation between personal economic power and the distribution of available economic rewards in any society should persuade a reasonable person that something is wrong.

The struggle for social equalities is an acknowledgement that our personal differences are generally insignificant. I believe this point of view is closer to the truth than the opposite one. Unfortunately, we are all prone to enjoying beneficial inequalities. More unfortunately, some of us enjoy abusing other people by denying them social equalities that everyone deserves and don’t harm anyone. The smug justification that life isn’t fair ignores the reality that people frequently make it that way.

I am sympathetic to Batty’s point of view on gender issues. I understand some of the comments that have challenged it but don’t find them as compelling. However, I am encouraged that there do appear to be many areas of agreement on this subject.

Nicki B

03-22-2009, 06:56 PM

That's why they said "God made man, Sam Colt made them equal."

If you want to live in a jungle, maybe.. But there is always someone else (often social groups) bigger, and badder, than you as an individual.. And who looks after children, the elderly, the infirm?

Jilmac

03-22-2009, 08:20 PM

Batty, Our new president hasn't had enough time in office to make any signifigant changes in the attitudes of some of those who would have us banished from the rest of society. However I believe that this administration is much more open minded to LGBT issues than the one which had a choke hold on the public for the past eight years. It seems that those people in Florida are from that old mindset, and possess no lifestyle flexibility. I hope they are in the minority and their protests are quashed by larger and more important issues.

MissConstrued

03-22-2009, 09:15 PM

But there is always someone else (often social groups) bigger, and badder, than you as an individual..

And there will be, so long as there are humans... regardless of whether or not there are weapons. What's your point?

battybattybats

03-22-2009, 10:49 PM

Why the bloody f*cking hell is that my problem?

Because the validity of your philosophy depends upon it so therefore does the justness of your liberty.

You seem to have the idea that every human being must have the exact same everything.

Wow! I can't believe I have to explain this to you further! Of course thats not what I'm saying. Did I say there should not be a meritocracy? NO I said there should not be a FALSE meritocracy. There is a distinct difference! Equality means equal rights and equal opportunity not everyone being blandly identical!

Think about it. If everyone were to be given the same chance to attend Harvard or MIT, then we may as well draw from the entire population by lottery! Pray tell, what would that do, but drag them down!

Sigh. Nope. When a less clever person gets into a higher ranking educational facility based purely on who their parents know or what their parents have achieved that is FALSE meritocracy. When the people with the highest IQ and personal ability are the ones who get in by earning their own way in by academic achievement that everyone has equal access to that is TRUE meritocracy.

The result of a true meritocracy is the people who are most deserving, who have most earned the posirion get it which benefits the University and the community rather than having inept and incompetant people getting positions of power and responsibility based on unearned advantages. It is instead that which drags everyone down, the opposite of the effect of True Meritocracy!

Obvious no?

In my school years, I would frequently win various academic competitions. Did I have an advantage?

People have varying abilities. Some are strong, some are smart, some are stable and resilient. But if all have equal rights and equal opportunity then the cream in each field will rise to the top. However if not then that will not be the case.

Obviously.

My parents saw to it that I spent a lot of time at the library. We weren't rich. The library was an advantage, yes. But did everyone else in town have that library to use? Yes! It's not my fault that they didn't.

Thats the darn equal-access equal-opportunity im talking about.. your making my argument for me with this example.

Nor would it be my problem if a blind kid couldn't avail himself of that broadness of education. You want to poke my eyes out so I won't have an unfair advantage over the blind kid!

You cannot be that illogical surely! If you were blind you'd want the library to serve your needs equally by having Braille books and audiobooks and software to read internet documents alloud for you. that way the State by providing a service to the community did so equally for all.

Obvious! again.

The library represents equality of opportunity; equality under law.

Which must take into account varying needs or its not equal opportunity but false equality. By serving only the sighted it is pretending equality when it is not so.

If the next Stephen Hawking cannot rise to their full potential because the local library or college etc is not wheelchair accessible then there has not been equality of opportunity.

There's no way to guarantee equality of outcome.

Of course not, but that is no excuse for aiming any service at the most average and ignoring the rest. Thats not Equal by any stretch of the imagination. But a blind academic merely needs different kinds of books and then they can reach their due position. The Library has a responsibility to be a repository of knowledge for all, not just those with eyesight. Once so then the smartest and most hardworking will excell. True Meritocracy not False Meritocracy!

Some people are naturally advantaged; some disadvantaged.

Thats a pointless argument as I said Equal Opportunity dos not mean just for those who have no disadvantage.

And we are not like crocodiles with no society. We are an animal with community, which exists to provide mutual benefit and support. Rights don't just protect individuals from the abuses of tyranny or the majority (though you seen to fail to grasp even that latter point with you 'let the blind people be denied access to braille materials cause they were unlucky enough to go blind' ie 'serve the majority not everyone equally' nonsense) they define our obligations to the community and it's limits and the communities obligations to us as individuals and it's limits.

Life isn't fair. Go have a good cry, and get over it.

Then you'd be happy with the unfairness of tyranny? C'mon thats a self-negating argument! Libertarianism is an attempt to impose an idea of what is considered fair over a society just like what yoiu are complaining about.

Read up on Rawl's Veil of Ignorance and of the philosophical and political historical arguments and ideas that lead up to the various notions of Rights and the arguments that have continued post the drafting of the USA bill.

You are relying on a series of logical fallacies for your argument! You are arguing from a specific subjective view under the assumption that it is best and absolute without considering that what granted it validity requires of it further progress.

Life wasn't fair under Absolute Monarchy either! Yet the very point of liberty was to make things fair irrespective of the circumstances of ones birth. So stop being a hypocrit and go have your cry and get over it!

Awww pooor diddums! People are arguing on continuing the work of fighting for equality and fairness that the French revolution, US war of independance and English civil war and the Eureka Stockade and so much more was about and it might start affecting your privileges now. Thats so horrible! So Equality was all about making you equal but not blind people?

My ancestors didn't give up the power of their noble birthright and fight for Equality for All so that peasants stood beside them as equals just for you to decide that your advantages need to be protected at the expense of others who by the circumstances of their birth are treated as less equal in practice.

If you think it was right for my ancestors to set aside their titles, if you think its right for you not to be ruled by Kings and Queens then you can't use unfairness as a defence for maintaining unequal services and False Meritocracy.

As for the U.N., I have no use for it. It's even more meaningless and ineffectual than the US Congress, and should be dismantled.

Another logical fallacy. The effectiveness of a political body whether the USA government or the UN has no bearing on the philosophical validity or not of the arguments that resulted in either the Decleration or the Bill!

Try insisting on your "Universal Human Rights" in China or Zimbabwe.

There are people fighting for them. Dying for them. Just like those who died to free the USA of the Tyranny of the Monarchy. And yet the self-evident inalienable rights were seen to already exist before the Bill was written. Rights may be abused by governments and laws but not justly or rightly so and hence descriptions of them define right and wrong for a states actions. They exist not because of law but because of philosophy. The law merely is to protect the rights which exist regardless.

Please try to avoid these obvious self-refuting arguments.

Hell, you can't have "universal human" anything anyhow -- there's no universal human.

And does that invalidate the rights? Careful lest you invalidate the founding notions of your own Bill while your at it! Sure some argue that it should be Sentience rather than being human that defines some or all of the rights, but regardless of that the UN decleration comes from the same philosophical arguments that Thomas Paine's The Rights Of Man and Déclaration des droits de l'Homme et du citoyen (Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen) the works of Hobbes, Hume, Locke, Rouseau, Proudhon and more all contributed too and emerged from.

You really need to learn where your Bill comes from, where Libertarianism comes from. Learn about the Enlightenment.

"World government for world peace" is sucker bait.

Sigh. It's just another level of government like a federation of states making up Australia or the USA. It is no more or less valid a notion as that. Yes a global deomcracy where some of the votes are cast by undemocratic states and human rights denying states is bad... but so is any federation of states or any democratic government! They all have the same flaws! However as many have said democracy is the best system we have.

So are you done arguing ideology yet? Ready to discuss the actual thread topic of acting to protect TGs from organised hate groups spreading unacceptance with lies yet? Ready to consider doing something about the pervasive discrimination, inequality and injustice faced by TG people yet?

Cause Libertarian or not there is inequality under the law. There is people trying to maintain that inequality. There is people being harmed by this and by the lies used to succeed in their aims. And no-one but us are going to manage to do anything about it unless we get involved and help them and ourselves!

Batty, Our new president hasn't had enough time in office to make any signifigant changes in the attitudes of some of those who would have us banished from the rest of society. However I believe that this administration is much more open minded to LGBT issues than the one which had a choke hold on the public for the past eight years. It seems that those people in Florida are from that old mindset, and possess no lifestyle flexibility. I hope they are in the minority and their protests are quashed by larger and more important issues.

On the plus side we have the Obama administration listing TG rights as part of it's equality agenda and inviting a TS who is a TG advocate, Mara Keisling of the National Center For Transgender Equality http://www.nctequality.org/ to the anouncement ceremony of the White House Council On Women And Girls http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9879

On the minus known hate groups actively involved in opposing TG equality were invited by Joshua DuBois, head of the Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships into the White House to discyss policy! http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9946

And Florida is not the only place these haters are active nor successful! Kalamazoo Michigan is another centre of these fights. The Not My Shower hate-site which is part of the organised attacks on TG peoples civil rights is based in Maryland http://www.notmyshower.com/

So we really are at a situation where we could gain tremendously or lose out horribly depending on people getting involved or keeping their heads in the sand.

This is not just in one part of the USA, it's happening county by county, state by state. Using the same lies to try and stop any legislative progress to equality for TG people and to undo what already exists.

Stirring up fear and hate wherever they choose to concentrate next.

Which could be the hometown of any USA CD here. And if they spread enough hate and bias Obama won't be able to get any federal equality bills passed. So surely we must counteract this group.

Kathi Lake

03-22-2009, 10:55 PM

Ho-leeeeee shit, Batty. You've got way too much time on your hands! Maybe you should try a hobby (I hear needlepoint can be fun). Then again, that would you away from your time on the parapet shouting out about all the injustice in the world, wouldn't it?

Tell me, do you ever have any fun? Do you ever laugh? Do you ever give someone a kind word? No, probably not, because then the bigots would win, wouldn't they? How sad.

Phew. I'm done with this thread. What is left to be said that hasn't been said before (ad nauseam)?

Kathi

JulieK1980

03-23-2009, 12:13 AM

I find it mildly ironic, that the only people on here that want to do anything to improve our rights, are those from Europe and Australia. But we live in the land of the free, don't we? LMAO! This country is so beyond puritanical, its hard to fathom. How people who are discriminated against could possibly believe it's just is beyond my comprehension.

For the point of the thread, I for one think its way past the time to "do something" Its way past time to become vocal, and come together as a real group. Its time we started thinking of those that come after us. After all its not just about us, our actions will influence what happens to the next generation of crossdressers as well. Why should we be ok with the status quo? Why should we be forced to live a life of shame so we don't offend someone who would rather spit on us as look at you?

There are days when I truly start to believe that defending my country was a lapse in moral judgement. How can we call ourselves free when only SOME are free?

MissConstrued, I'm sorry all your ideals sound pretty, but when people are being murdered because they're transgendered, and kids are tormented by people because they are transgendered its time to STOP sticking to the idiotic partisan crap that divides our country and ACTIVELY fix it. Its all fine and dandy to have libertarian ideas, unfortunately though they don't reflect the reality of human nature or the current state of the world. Pat Buchannon does not have all the answers.

battybattybats

03-23-2009, 12:56 AM

Ho-leeeeee shit, Batty. You've got way too much time on your hands! Maybe you should try a hobby (I hear needlepoint can be fun). Then again, that would you away from your time on the parapet shouting out about all the injustice in the world, wouldn't it?

Wow thats the best you can do? Even for an Ad Hominem attack thats poor. I have quite a few hobbies actually and i have indeed dabbled in needlepoint amongst others. Besides, my Mother was involved in standing up for Womens Rights, as was my Grandmother and my Great Grandmother and my Great Great Grandmother. They stood up for the rights of Aboriginals. Justice is a family tradition from my female cousin the Judge to my male QC relatives, for generations especially amongst women.

Tell me, do you ever have any fun? Do you ever laugh?

I do.

Do you ever give someone a kind word?

Often.

No, probably not, because then the bigots would win, wouldn't they? How sad.

Phew. I'm done with this thread. What is left to be said that hasn't been said before (ad nauseam)?

Of course, because i just invented the notmyshower folk and made up the website and all those votes and tv and radio ads. They aren't real are they, they won't have any effect even though equality laws have already been overturned.

Lets look at what your saying by rephrasing it shall we?

"Hey don't worry about all those fires, don't bother me about that stuff about them heading this way. Hey Rome, stop scremaing and check this groovey fiddle music!"

Thats the essence of your post. Saying we should be like Nero. Saying we should ignore a real serious threat and just have fun and pretend there is no problem.

You think I need to have more fun? To stop pointing out real problems?

If you do nothing and we lose you will be to blame when CDs and TSs lose their jobs, are arrested for using either public bathroom and for the deaths of TG people on the streets. Which may well one day include you.

If you do nothing but we win then your liberty to have fun will be built on the backs and from the blood sweat and tears of me and those doing far more than I am capable of. Just as your freedom to CD in public now came from the blood sweat and tears and arrests and electro-shock torture and prison rapes and deaths of braver people than you and me over the last 40 years who made things as good for you as they are now!

So if you want me to have more fun then take up some of the damn slack! Stop being a freeloading moocher enjoying the efforts of TG civil rights workers who sacrificed so very much to make it legal for you to crossdress at all!

When I want a laugh i read some Lio http://www.gocomics.com/lio/ or hang out with offline friends. For fun I play Dungeons and Dragons and Conspiracy X or play multiplayer Halo on my friends projection screen. I just spent the weekend at a bush mountain cabin with some friends and their families that had a view over a massive gorge that many people would kill for. And while most of them rode horses i got driven by a friend round the path along the range and cliffs on the back of a quad bike followed by a lovely fire cooked meal and lounging around in front of a huge open fireplace. (By the way, local Quolls are cute!)

But none of that, not even that I outed myself to one friend on the drive to the cabin with not a problem or that I sat in my gunmetal satin womens pyjamas as I sat eating sausages and eggs for breakfast with two school teachers and a builder watching the mist rolling through the gorge, has anything to do with this thread, with these real problems!

When i want to not let people die or lose their civil rights I visit this thread. Besides changing the world can be fun!

But I guess you don't care about others so long as they don't ruin your personal buzz, even if its you that could be next in line to suffer.

For the point of the thread, I for one think its way past the time to "do something" Its way past time to become vocal, and come together as a real group. Its time we started thinking of those that come after us. After all its not just about us, our actions will influence what happens to the next generation of crossdressers as well. Why should we be ok with the status quo? Why should we be forced to live a life of shame so we don't offend someone who would rather spit on us as look at you?

Great point! And the need is illustrated right here: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103313 the generation following us needs us right now!

There are days when I truly start to believe that defending my country was a lapse in moral judgement. How can we call ourselves free when only SOME are free?

You weren't wrong to defend your country. You just need to continue to defend its freedom inside your country as well as outside, with words instead of bullets and votes instead of bombs. TG people are very often in the military, and yet a TS former marine froze to death on a church doorstep. There is a group called TAVA for transgender veterans which many may wish to look up.

MissConstrued

03-23-2009, 01:04 AM

Ready to consider doing something about the pervasive discrimination, inequality and injustice faced by TG people yet?

I don't even know where to begin with your latest round of hysterical self-serving blather. I don't think you even understand what you're writing. Half of it doesn't even make sense.

My fight is just what it says in our Pledge of Allegiance: liberty and justice for all. Not whiny minorities. Where is all this anti-TG discrimination and injustice you're pissing and moaning about? I have yet to experience any, and I don't know anyone who has.

Have some lost jobs? Probably. Get another one! Does the concept of personal responsibility mean anything to you? Or can you not get through life without Big Brother holding your hand?

And finally... my government is corrupt from top to bottom, inside and out. I know this, and so do millions of my countrymen. We're working damned hard just to make sure we still have the basics -- free speech being rather important. We're losing property rights. Our 4th Amendment is being shredded. And so on. Those are fundamental rights that everyone needs, so pardon me if I don't join your little ragtag crusade. I've got bigger fish to fry, like the police memo (MIAC report -- Google it) circulating that certain bumper stickers on one's car is cause to suspect terrorism. Get it?

MissConstrued, I'm sorry all your ideals sound pretty, but when people are being murdered because they're transgendered, and kids are tormented by people because they are transgendered

People are murdered for cheating on their spouses or getting sideways in drug deals. Kids are tormented for being fat or wearing glasses or being nerds. What do you propose to do about that? Write more laws?

JulieK1980

03-23-2009, 01:31 AM

MissConstrued:

What's your obsession with laws? I said nothing of laws. Learn to read before you spout. I personally agree with a lot of libertarian ideals. What you fail to understand about your own party is that they DON'T believe in burying their head in the sand when others are being trodden upon. "Freedom to do as we please, as long as it DOESN'T infringe on the rights of others"

Why are people unable to see a full picture of something past themselves?

Batty:

Thanks for the name of that group, TAVA. I confess I've never heard of that group, and it sounds like something I would like to become involved with.

MissConstrued

03-23-2009, 01:46 AM

What's your obsession with laws? I said nothing of laws. Learn to read before you spout.

Didn't suggest you did -- that's why it was phrased as a question, with a "?" and all. I was trying to get at your point. What was it?

JulieK1980

03-23-2009, 02:02 AM

Didn't suggest you did -- that's why it was phrased as a question, with a "?" and all. I was trying to get at your point. What was it?

Really? You didn't get it? Ok I'll try again..

The Point I'm making is simply this, if people are being discriminated against, and having they're own freedoms infringed upon by others, it needs to be stopped. How it is stopped is the million dollar question. Whether it be as benign as which toilet to pee in, or to have our right to bear arms taken away. The POINT is it needs to be fixed. THAT IS your party's philosophy is it not? To give everyone the same oportunity as everyone else and allow darwinism to take its course? You are counter-arguing your own beliefs, its ok to make LAWS AGAINST people peeing in a certain toilet, but not ok to make a law that says you can pee in any toilet you wish. Which of those is the lesser of two evils? If that is the only choice you have, which thanks to religious right wingers it is, which would you choose? If you ACTUALLY are a libertarian, and not just another partisan party line throwing bureacrat you would see the oxymoron you are walking into. Regardless of party affiliation, or political beliefs, if you believe in Freedom, it would mean you want to be just that, to be free, Regardless of whom you sleep with or the clothes you wear or whatever else a person chooses. If you haven't figured it out yet, freedom is only achieved by fighting for it, NOT sticking your head in the sand. If laws aren't the way, then by all means create the way, and come up with an answer that does work. Its easy to criticize, but not always easy to see a better way.

kathtx

03-23-2009, 02:16 AM

I've got bigger fish to fry, like the police memo (MIAC report -- Google it) circulating that certain bumper stickers on one's car is cause to suspect terrorism. Get it?

Oh baloney. Turn off Rush and start thinking. Did you read the actual MIAC report? It says nothing of the kind. It says "Militia members commonly display pictures, cartoons, bumper stickers that contain anti-government rhetoric." It is one small part of a larger profile used by the police to identify potentially dangerous situations. The police have also noticed that nearly all militia members are male; that hardly means that a Y chromosome is regarded as a cause to suspect terrorism.

Furthermore, the police are also very well aware that membership in a militia is not by itself cause to suspect involvement in terrorism. They know that of the thousands of members of militia groups during the 90s, only a handful planted bombs or shot people. They're not worried about right-wing *groups*, they're worried about crazy *individuals* who use right-wing ideology as a rationalization for murder. There are profiles for that that require far more than bumper stickers and group membership. (BTW, I say "right-wing" here only because there hasn't been a significant amount of left-wing violence in the US for 35 years. Back in the day, though, there were the Weathermen on the left as well as the Klan on the right...)

So put your "You'll take my gun..." sticker on your car if you want to. Nobody's going to put you on a watch list for it.

Incidentally, I'm worried about 1st and 4th amendment rights at least as much as you are. People were arrested for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts to his rallies in 2004, and in 2008 at both major-party conventions peaceful demonstrations were broken up by police, with some people arrested. Anti-terrorist, anti-drug, and RICO laws have been abused. I completely disagree with the people who illegally block legal to abortion clinics, but charging them with RICO violations rather than simple trespassing (and occasionally assault, when they get pushy) is an abuse of police power. Confiscating and selling someone's house because their grandson had drugs on the premises is an abuse of police power. Let's worry about these real problems, not the nonsense MIAC rumors flying around the right-wing echo chamber.

ErikaLeigh

03-23-2009, 02:22 AM

Here is some food for thought. Here in Arizona we have a lot of illegal immigrants (bear with me here I will get to the point) and not too many people ever thought about them living among us UNTIL they started marching and wanted rights and other things like government assistance. This actually backfired on them and now there are laws in place here that make it VERY bad if you are caught hiring one (you can lose your business license, your business, face tons of fines, jail time, etc). Now im not saying lay down and die here, but be VERY careful about how these things are approached. Its easier to catch ants with honey than with vinnegar. What im saying is running out and waving a flag most likely isnt the best choice. The best way to get people used to the fact that we are here is to act like a lady when you go out. Show everyone that you come in contact with that we care about ourselves and the people we are interacting if it be at a store, mall, hotel, or whatever. If we act like we own the world and they owe us acceptance it will probably piss people off and turn them against us. I have seen a few bad apples set this kind of example in the phoenix area, I for one want NOTHING to do with them!!!!

Bottom line if you are going to be a lady, act like one. :hugs:

battybattybats

03-23-2009, 02:26 AM

I don't even know where to begin with your latest round of hysterical self-serving blather. I don't think you even understand what you're writing. Half of it doesn't even make sense.

It doesn't make sense to you because you don't know what you're talking about beyond a very narrow slice while when I discuss the subject with professors of philosophy who specialise in the subject as well as with Human Rights Lawyers I get respect for having a detailed understanding of the subject. So try reading up and start to catch up please. I gave you heaps of names (Hobbes, Hume, Locke, Rousseau etc forom whose ideas or in opposition to whose ideas Libertarianism has come!) to start with. Libertarianism is a philosophy. A subject I have literally grown up with!

So if you want to argue try and catch up. I have dropped references of people whose arguments helped define the US bill of rights and the later evolution of the idea. You have not. I suggest you might want to read up on the history of Individualism, of Locke's influence, on social contract theory and its variations and objections. Cause Its obvious I know more about libertarianism its principles origin and history than you do!

My fight is just what it says in our Pledge of Allegiance: liberty and justice for all. Not whiny minorities.

Again the obvious, the whiny minorities are part of the all! The function of rights is to limit the power of the state and the tyranny of the majority to impose over minorities and individuals. It's not and never has been rights for just the majority or in a way that suits the majority and minorities just have to fit in with how the majority wants to enjoy those rights. The ALL includes the minorities!

Where is all this anti-TG discrimination and injustice you're pissing and moaning about? I have yet to experience any, and I don't know anyone who has.

Can't you follow links? http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103313 You can start right there and then move onto http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97576 and http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97994 and http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96588 and here's one from my own country http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96022 and lets not forget the rest of http://www.gender.org/remember/day/ and thats the tip of the iceberg.

Have some lost jobs? Probably. Get another one!

http://transgroupblog.blogspot.com/2007/07/cold-showers-and-statistics.html

Does the concept of personal responsibility mean anything to you? Or can you not get through life without Big Brother holding your hand?

Are you so naiive and ignorant to think that everyone who hasn't got jobs are responsible for not having jobs rather than, say, it being legal to discriminate agsinst TG people because they are TG meaning that even Terrorism Experts have to fight to get employment http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1840754,00.html?imw=Y best person for the job denied the job because they are TG.

From: http://transgroupblog.blogspot.com/2007/07/cold-showers-and-statistics.html

A study in the San Francisco Bay Area conducted in 2006 of 194 transgender individuals found a 35% unemployment rate, with 59% earning less than $15,300 annually.
A Williams Institute review of six studies conducted in cities and regions on both coasts and the Midwest, showed the following ranges for experiences of discrimination based on gender identity:

13%-56% of transgender people had been fired
13%-47% had been denied employment
22%-31% had been harassed, either verbally or physically, in the workplace

Housing:

A large number, possibly a majority, of transwomen are likely to have experienced homelessness at some point in their lives.

Education:

GLSEN's 2005 School Climate Survey, which surveys 1,732 lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students from all 50 states and Washington DC, reports that, because of bias against their gender identity or expression:
40.7% of students felt unsafe in their own school
45.5% had been verbally harassed
26.1% had been physically harassed
11.8% had been assaulted

There you go. QED.

People are murdered for cheating on their spouses or getting sideways in drug deals. Kids are tormented for being fat or wearing glasses or being nerds. What do you propose to do about that? Write more laws?

Anti-bullying laws are indeed part of the ones being fought over in the USA at the moment actually. Mostly because some people don't want being TG or gay being included with being fat or wearing glasses etc! Again inequality. When TG is allowed to be an exception it's inequality. Thats pretty simple so why are you maintaining blinkers about it?

And the murder rate for TGs especially African American ones are far beyond those of cheating spouses or drug deals neither of which come close to being the leading cause of death, unlike murder for African American Transwomen as mentioned in the link above.

Now as I keep saying.

THIS IS NOT A THREAD FOR DISCUSSING POLITICAL IDEOLOGIES. IT IS A THREAD FOR DISCUSSING HOW TO DEAL WITH A CONCERTED ORGANISED ATTACK ON TRANSGENDER PEOPLE ESPECIALLY OF CROSSDRESSERS. SO WHILE ITS FINE THAT YOU CONSIDER YOU HAVE 'BIGGER FISH TO FRY' W.T.F. ARE YOU DOING HERE? GO AWAY AND FRY YOUR FISH RATHER THAN INTERFERING WITH OUR ATTEMPT TO DO SOMETHIGN ABOUT THIS!

Kelsy

03-23-2009, 04:47 AM

Here is some food for thought. Its easier to catch ants with honey than with vinnegar. What im saying is running out and waving a flag most likely isnt the best choice. The best way to get people used to the fact that we are here is to act like a lady when you go out. Show everyone that you come in contact with that we care about ourselves and the people we are interacting if it be at a store, mall, hotel, or whatever. If we act like we own the world and they owe us acceptance it will probably piss people off and turn them against us. I have seen a few bad apples set this kind of example in the phoenix area, I for one want NOTHING to do with them!!!!

Bottom line if you are going to be a lady, act like one. :hugs:

Ahhhhh politics, It is maddening! But I'm with you Erika, you will force no one into accepting us. tolerating maybe accepting never

Kelsy

battybattybats

03-23-2009, 07:36 AM

Ahhhhh politics, It is maddening! But I'm with you Erika, you will force no one into accepting us. tolerating maybe accepting never

Kelsy

How did Women get acceptance?
Gays?
African Americans?

They demanded tolerance and equality and won acceptance. It required work but that effort worked. Each has been successful with a success that keeps growing!

So why do people keep demanding we don't do what they all did?

Why do people keep saying we must not or should not do what those who are campaining against us are doing?

They are organising. They are getting people to sign petitions. They are getting people to write letters. They are getting people to spread their views around. They are getting people to donate money to their organisations. They are making tv and radio and net ads.

If we are going to stop them were going to have to stop pretending that doing something as a community is bad and scary and wont work and impossible.

I'm not talking about marches and flag waving yet thats already going on by the brave at pride marches and TG specific marches already nor about riots that part was done 40 years ago or about everyone having to come out though each one helps but just things everyone can do from the closet!

Its not much being asked of anyone. So I wonder what people are really scared of!

edit: An update. Public access portion of a bill removed because of bathroom panic nonsense in Baltimore so that:

Transfolks can be refused entrance to their preferred restroom.

Transfolks can be refused rooms at hotels.

Transfolks can be refused the use of a changing room at a clothing store.

Transfolks can be excluded from changing/locker rooms.

Transfolks can be refused service at bars, restaurants and nightclubs.

http://teamtrans.blogspot.com/2009/03/calling-all-trans-allies-and-pissed-off.html

So, anyone going to help? Remember, you can still help from within the closet!

Further edit: Oh and things have been happening in North Dakota too http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/234909/

I wonder where I'll hear of the same lies being used to try and prevent or roll back TG rights and equality next?

Pink Person

03-23-2009, 01:33 PM

Erika raises a good point, so I want to respond to it. For the record, I am opposed to street fighting and hitting (most) people with rocks. Pardon my hyperbolic comments in a previous post.

Sometimes it is difficult to know what tone to take with your objections to people who are abusing you. Sweet language, soft tones, and passive resistance are legitimate options that should be considered but I wonder how well they work against aggressive and violent forms of abuse.

The so-called gentle people of the world frequently stand shoulder to shoulder with brutes in their opposition to us and both use their soft hatred and hard hatred to promote soft abuses and hard abuses against us. It's hard to know how to react to all of them.

What should we do in response? I think anything short of violence and reciprocal abuse is fair play. Rational arguments, for instance, never hurt anyone . Marching to draw attention to your cause doesn't seem offensive. Anyone who overreacts to these things in a negative manner should search themselves for the problem.

Nicki B

03-23-2009, 07:57 PM

And there will be, so long as there are humans... regardless of whether or not there are weapons. What's your point?

I thought, if you read the last sentence, it was pretty clear? :strugglin

If you want to live in a jungle, maybe.. But there is always someone else (often social groups) bigger, and badder, than you as an individual.. And who looks after children, the elderly, the infirm?

Strength comes to those who organise, not to individuals. Go trying playing paintball with a group of individuals against people who work as a team, and see who wins?

So I wonder what people are really scared of!

That so often seems to be the root of things, for many, doesn't it? Although perhaps not in MCs case - she doesn't see any gain in it for her? :sad:

I find it mildly ironic, that the only people on here that want to do anything to improve our rights, are those from Europe and Australia. But we live in the land of the free, don't we? LMAO! This country is so beyond puritanical, its hard to fathom. How people who are discriminated against could possibly believe it's just is beyond my comprehension.

As someone who doesn't live in the US (but has been out and about there) a very common attitude I see expressed on this board is 'Get real - that's the way it is and we can't change it'. Often it's linked to apparent anger against anyone who challenges that very deeply held belief - it feels sometimes as if people want the status quo to remain, because then they can stay safely in their closets and don't have to worry about the outside world? :sad:

Perhaps people outside the US know more easily that that's not always the way it is, elsewhere?

battybattybats

03-23-2009, 10:20 PM

Sometimes it is difficult to know what tone to take with your objections to people who are abusing you. Sweet language, soft tones, and passive resistance are legitimate options that should be considered but I wonder how well they work against aggressive and violent forms of abuse.

The so-called gentle people of the world frequently stand shoulder to shoulder with brutes in their opposition to us and both use their soft hatred and hard hatred to promote soft abuses and hard abuses against us. It's hard to know how to react to all of them.

What should we do in response? I think anything short of violence and reciprocal abuse is fair play. Rational arguments, for instance, never hurt anyone . Marching to draw attention to your cause doesn't seem offensive. Anyone who overreacts to these things in a negative manner should search themselves for the problem.

Why is violence and reciprocal abuse not fair play? Sure I'm personally a pacifist but lets consider the why of this one.

Precedent: French Revolution, English Civil War, American Revolution, Eureka Stockade (Australian goldfields rebellion). So citizens using violence even to the point of armed rebellion is acceptable to assert and defend their human rights.

If people are attacking someone in the street self-defence must be acceptable at the very least within legal guidelines of self defence.

When CDs were the subject of long-term police brutality I think the Compton Riots and Stonewall uprising were totally justified. Molatov cocktails and stiletto heels as weapons and all!

If we need some guidelines on a moral/ethical level of acceptable violence I think thats pretty easy. This will be international so don't lose your minds over the first notions.

If the state is being violent contrary to TG human rights (such as in Kuwait and plenty of other countries where arrested CDs are tortured) then any form of violence against the mechanisms of state is acceptable so long as civilian casualties are utterly minimised. That includes a country invading another country because of TG and other human rights abuses or citizens attacking prisons, police etc. (precedents include the invasion of Afghanistan to the storming of the Bastille).

If someones legal obligation is to participate in abusing human rights then civil disobediance even up to including if neccessary turning on ones coworkers violently to prevent the abuse is acceptable (precedents include the decision by international courts that there was an obligation of German soldiers to disobey orders to execute prisoners in death camps even if it meant their own death!). If for example a kuwait police officer was suppossed to arrest and torture a CD it is acceptable (no matter how unwise for them personally) to instead use whatever violence is neccessary to stop their fellow police from carrying out the law. When Duanna Johnson was being bashed by a police officer using handcuffs as knuckledusters while she was handcuffed it would be acceptable for fellow police officers to physically intervene and restrain him. To all these people their duty to protect Human Rights is higher than their duty to obey orders.

If someone violently attacks someone in your presence then it is absolutely acceptable to use violence to defend them. So long as the law will prosecute the attacker though it must be up to the law to punish them! The violence is only acceptable to the point of protecting the victim and perhaps detaining the assaulter till police arrive.

Take a look at this video (warning, may be triggering for sufferers of violence) http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9902
a shocking case that took place in Tarapot, in the North, where a "junta vecinal" or neighborhood watch vigilante type of group took it upon themselves to find and punish Techi, a transgender woman and alleged prostitute. They took off her clothes, cut her hair, beat and threatened her. And all of this in front of a news crew they'd invited to chronicle the attack.
and for the record prostituion is not even against the law in Peru!

It would be acceptable for people to use violence to defend Techi!

But vigilanteism is rarely acceptable when it is not able to be held accountable. It needs to be under the most dire of circumstances to justify that.

So there are definately circumstances where violence is acceptable. But only under certain conditions that currently are rare. We needn't riot or burn down buildings or throw petrol bombs in America, The UK, Canada or Australia at the moment. But in the countries where CDs and TSs are arrested and tortured I think that can be quite reasonable.

But in the developed democratic west right now violence is acceptable only in imediate self-defence or the defence of others. Violence is not a neccessary part of fixing these problems!

Instead we can do a lot more good by commenting anonymously on the net, by writing letters to politicians, by raising money for ads that educate the populace and counter haters lying ads, by opposing transphobia expressed near you whether out or not, by coming out as TG if you can, by coming out as not oppossed to TG rights if you can't come out as one.

We don't actually need people to do much!

This is not a case where the best thing would be for a few to do a lot. What would work best is for a lot to do a little. Thats all.

Just a little bit from a lot of people will do wonders!

That so often seems to be the root of things, for many, doesn't it? Although perhaps not in MCs case - she doesn't see any gain in it for her? :sad:

You'd think that enlightened self-interest (a cornerstone of Libertarian and Individualist arguments for those notions to result in social justice!) would kick in and she'd have got what I was saying about opposing the hate-groups and their lies without supporting laws she doesn't agree with. She could easilly do that within her ideology (which is why I think she doesn't understand it!) with benefit to herself as well as others and without having to make it her greatest priority either.

As someone who doesn't live in the US (but has been out and about there) a very common attitude I see expressed on this board is 'Get real - that's the way it is and we can't change it'. Often it's linked to apparent anger against anyone who challenges that very deeply held belief - it feels sometimes as if people want the status quo to remain, because then they can stay safely in their closets and don't have to worry about the outside world? :sad:

My guess would be that its about protecting themselves from guilt. If they tell themselves that its not possible to make things better and try and convince others that nothing can be done then it will stop them from feelling guilty themselves for doing nothing.

Though that's just a guess. Maybe one of the people who object to us doing anything could expain why?

JulieK1980

03-23-2009, 10:47 PM

Some very good points made Batty, and Nicki B. Unfortunately many people here in the U.S. do follow the ideas of people like MissConstrued. Unfortunately NONE of them have any true understanding of what Libertarianism truly is. They just listen to Rush Limbaugh on talk radio and deem themselves libertarians. They're so focused on the impending attack on their rights by the big bad federal government, (which isn't coming) that they can't see they are being played as fools by the right wing media, and are a guaranteed pool of voters for the republican party.

The question I ask is, not whether its time to do something, but rather how do we bring ourselves together as a group? If we do this, half the battle is over. But how do you organize people here in the complacency of the U.S? Those that are here, don't know what the rest of the world is like. They are Happily ignorant of our own rights going away and our standard of living dropping down to the lowest levels since the 19th century. People that are perfectly content to think that we live better than the rest of the world, while we become increasingly less competitive to the rest of the world. People like MissConstrued are a perfect example, of why the cause of TG rights are doomed to failure here, and for that matter all rights. So many people seem to think as long as it doesn't affect me, it doesn't matter. Just 80 years after the holocaust people have already forgotten that doing NOTHING while your neighbors get persecuted leads to some of the most horrendous atrocities that have ever occured in recorded history.

Pink Person

03-24-2009, 06:01 AM

I will concede to Batty on the point that violence and abuse are sometimes fair play in response to those things. I will qualify my previous remark by saying that anything short of violence and abuse is always fair play and should not be considered a high provocation to other people.

Senban

03-24-2009, 09:20 AM

I have to admit I stopped reading this thread for a while . Oh I'm sure it was all very interesting and deep but I was more interested in doing something instead of re-enacting that scene from Life of Brian where John Cleese announces dramatically "Right! This calls for immediate discussion! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YawagQ6lLrA)" :doh:

Battybattybats said - "Is it time to do something?

If it is time then what should we do and how?"

Well yes, it is time. It's always time.

Personally I've just come back from the meeting of our staff LGBT group where we've been debating how best we can improve the support systems in place at the university for LGBT staff, how best we can improve recruitment procedures so that candidates know absolutely that their sexual/gender orientation will never be a factor to preclude them from employment and to create an education programme for staff so that they better understand the reality versus the prevalent myths. Given that we have no budget whatsoever and that we're all volunteering our time that could be quite a struggle. For the record, no staff groups get a budget; we're not being discriminated against.

What was interesting if not shocking was the fact that many people only wanted to bother with the staff group if something was an actual issue that related to their personal situation. There are only a small number who are really interested in being proactive. I debated quoting the famous poem by Pastor Neimoller but thought it wasn't worth the effort.

Anyway, at least here we're doing something to ensure that the transgender community isn't discriminated against and is fully included. For the moment we're going to be studying the following recently released document to see what lessons we can learn from it.

The Experience Of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual And Trans Staff And Students In Higher Education (http://www.ecu.ac.uk/publications/lgbt-staff-and-students-in-he)

We have plenty of other issues we're planning to address, this is just our current framework.

MissConstrued

03-24-2009, 02:32 PM

They just listen to Rush Limbaugh on talk radio and deem themselves libertarians. They're so focused on the impending attack on their rights by the big bad federal government, (which isn't coming) that they can't see they are being played as fools by the right wing media, and are a guaranteed pool of voters for the republican party.

Rush Limbaugh wouldn't know a libertarian (note the LOWER CASE "L" folks... that's nothing to do with an organized party!) idea if it bit his fat ass. And I am not a Republican. I don't listen to "right-wing" talk radio. I don't believe the two major political parties to be fundamentally different -- they've both been screwing us for a long time.

I'm pretty sure I haven't given any reason to suspect me of partisanship. Read on below.

Incidentally, I'm worried about 1st and 4th amendment rights at least as much as you are. People were arrested for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts to his rallies in 2004, and in 2008 at both major-party conventions peaceful demonstrations were broken up by police, with some people arrested. Anti-terrorist, anti-drug, and RICO laws have been abused. I completely disagree with the people who illegally block legal to abortion clinics, but charging them with RICO violations rather than simple trespassing (and occasionally assault, when they get pushy) is an abuse of police power. Confiscating and selling someone's house because their grandson had drugs on the premises is an abuse of police power. Let's worry about these real problems, not the nonsense MIAC rumors flying around the right-wing echo chamber.

Don't think I'm not concerned about everything you mentioned, and then some. I gave the MIAC as an example that's recent, and in the news. And it's true, that's somewhat of a tempest in a teapot at this time, as is much of the slime from the SPLC, but it's part of a growing trend. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty, ya know.

Frankly, I'm not sure why you appear to be in disagreement. Freedom is not right-wing or left-wing. There is freedom, or there is not. The political left and right are working together against freedom, and as long as they can keep everyone divided into two parties, we'll fight each other -- instead of them. And you're falling into the same trap, assuming that because I mentioned MIAC that I wouldn't care about the anti-Bush t-shirt people. Not so. An attack on the Bill of Rights is an attack on the Bill of Rights. Have you not noticed that the same crap happens regardless of whether the R's or the D's are in power?

I'm not taking any side but that of liberty. I'm pissing off left-wingers AND right-wingers in the process. Why?

JulieK1980

03-24-2009, 03:39 PM

Rush Limbaugh wouldn't know a libertarian (note the LOWER CASE "L" folks... that's nothing to do with an organized party!) idea if it bit his fat ass. And I am not a Republican. I don't listen to "right-wing" talk radio. I don't believe the two major political parties to be fundamentally different -- they've both been screwing us for a long time.

I'm pretty sure I haven't given any reason to suspect me of partisanship. Read on below.

Don't think I'm not concerned about everything you mentioned, and then some. I gave the MIAC as an example that's recent, and in the news. And it's true, that's somewhat of a tempest in a teapot at this time, as is much of the slime from the SPLC, but it's part of a growing trend. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty, ya know.

Frankly, I'm not sure why you appear to be in disagreement. Freedom is not right-wing or left-wing. There is freedom, or there is not. The political left and right are working together against freedom, and as long as they can keep everyone divided into two parties, we'll fight each other -- instead of them. And you're falling into the same trap, assuming that because I mentioned MIAC that I wouldn't care about the anti-Bush t-shirt people. Not so. An attack on the Bill of Rights is an attack on the Bill of Rights. Have you not noticed that the same crap happens regardless of whether the R's or the D's are in power?

I'm not taking any side but that of liberty. I'm pissing off left-wingers AND right-wingers in the process. Why?

Well I'm definitely a Left winger myself, but you aren't pissing me off in any way. I just enjoy debating with people with similar yet polar opposite views. As for the assumption of you being partisan, a lot of what you were saying falls into the party lines of the more extreme Right wing republicans. Personally I think the libertarian party is so far to the right, that they almost end up on the left where I am. The problem is we have similar beliefs but different ideas on how to achieve them.

While I don't want to take the thread to far off topic, but our system of two parties is flawed, and needs many more than two parties. The two major political parties have essentially become the same. A lot of our issues here in the U.S. would be solved if we simply still had a check and balance system in place that worked. i.e. having parties with different views.

Incidentally your opinion of Rush warms my heart. Speaking of which why hasn't his plaque filled arteries stopped his from working yet?

Nicki B

03-24-2009, 03:49 PM

:rulez: Girls, carry on like this and you'll get the thread closed...

Third rule under 'Rights of content' -
Posts of a political nature (anywhere on the forum) are not permitted. (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/faq.php?faq=main_rules#faq_content)

Sharon

03-24-2009, 03:56 PM

Peka TG

03-24-2009, 08:24 PM

GAINESVILLE, Fla., March 24, 2009 – Equality is Gainesville’s Business (EQGB) applauds Gainesville voters for saying no to discrimination in Gainesville. Voters rejected the discriminatory ballot measure by a 58 percent to 42 percent margin. Charter Amendment 1 would have removed Gainesville’s existing nondiscrimination protections for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people, some of which have been in place for more than a decade.

For over a year, supporters of Charter Amendment 1 have waged a fear-based campaign that blatantly lied to voters about the intent and impact of Charter Amendment 1 and specifically targeted transgender people with harmful discrimination. The sweeping language of the ballot initiative, which was written by a far right conservative group in Michigan, would have prohibited the City of Gainesville from providing nondiscrimination protections beyond the minimal protections set forth in the Florida Civil Rights Act.

“Today Gainesville voters showed that they value the rights of all citizens,” said EQGB Chair and Gainesville City Commissioner Craig Lowe. “They have rejected the politics of fear and instead chose to retain the values that make our city such a beautiful place. Today, our voters showed their true character by emphasizing that, in Gainesville, every person matters.“

“Supporters of Charter Amendment 1 waged a campaign that blatantly lied to voters about the protections Gainesville has provided transgender citizens.” stated Joe Saunders EQGB campaign manager. “By targeting transgender people, proponents of Charter Amendment 1 have proven the need for inclusive anti-discrimination laws. Voter’s embraced Gainesville’s anti-discrimination laws tonight when they rejected Amendment 1.”

In the last year a broad array of organizations came out to publicly oppose Charter Amendment 1. These organizations include: the Anti-Defamation League - Florida, the ACLU of Florida, Equality Florida, the Human Rights Campaign, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, the National Center for Transgender Equality, Lambda Legal, National Center for Lesbian Rights, Organizations United Together (O.U.T.), UM (University of Miami) for Equality, Florida Association of Planned Parenthood Affiliates, Florida NOW, Gainesville Area NOW, Judy Levy NOW PAC, Alachua County Democratic Party, Alachua County Green Party, Alachua County/Gainesville League of Women Voters, Alachua County NAACP, Gainesville Area Chamber of Commerce, Gainesville Area AIDS Project (GAAP), Gainesville Commission on the Status of Women, Human Rights Council of North Central Florida, Interweave, Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of Gainesville, North Central Florida Central Labor Council, Pride Center of North Central Florida, Social Justice Council of the Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of Gainesville, Trinity Metropolitan Community Church, United Church of Gainesville Social Concerns Committee, University of Florida Students for Change, Students for a Democratic Society @ UF, Wild Iris Books and Wild Words Café, University of Florida Faculty Senate, University of Florida Presidential LGBT Concerns, and University of Florida Student Senate.

MissConstrued

03-24-2009, 08:43 PM

If political posts are not to be permitted, the very first post in this thread should be under scrutiny. It's about whether or not to do something political, isn't it? I think we've managed quite a discourse here without it degenerating into a flame war. Is there only one way of looking at the concept of human rights? A party line that has been transgressed? I'd like to think that some vague sort of synthesis can be achieved.

While I don't want to take the thread to far off topic, but our system of two parties is flawed, and needs many more than two parties. The two major political parties have essentially become the same. A lot of our issues here in the U.S. would be solved if we simply still had a check and balance system in place that worked. i.e. having parties with different views.

Amen! I can't remember how many "third" parties I've voted for... which I do whenever there's one on the ballot. Constitution, Green, Reform... name it. Anything but the same old same old. Probably the only (peaceful) way anything is going to change.

The important thing is to learn to frame issues in a common-sense way, rather than getting caught in the hyperbole and false dichotomy presented to us by mass media. We can't get at real solutions when the debate is controlled by those who have no interest in solutions.

Incidentally your opinion of Rush warms my heart. Speaking of which why hasn't his plaque filled arteries stopped his from working yet?

Oxycontin, I suspect. :D

Sharon

03-24-2009, 09:29 PM

battybattybats

03-24-2009, 11:35 PM

For goodness sake people...

This is not a thread to discuss improvements to the democratic processes of the USA. This is not a thread to argue for the benefits or problems of any particular political ideology or political philosophy. that is off-topic

This is a thread about groups organising to fight against Transgender equality using scare campains about crossdressers being evil rapist pedophiles and whether we do something about it or let them continue to hurt us!

Even if we win the legislative battles many people are clearly believing these lies and it will almost certainly rise the risks of violence against us!

So even those who disagree with having specific protections as a measure to ensure practical equality still have a stake in fighting the LIES that HURT PEOPLE!

Now I'm not saying Libertarians should fight for hate-speech protections. I'm well aware of their philosophy and ideology.

I'm saying they can use thier free speech to oppose lies with truth in the public discussions of these issues!

THIS is an example of how a Libertarian can do something to fight these lies WITHIN their principles:

As LIES like this http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9007 are being broadcast on tv and round the net you could spread things like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKDprTX-ZjA (thanks to Leslie Foxx for giving me that link!) around the net.

You can use your freedom of speech to countract theirs. Its well within your ideological principles.

Simple no?

So stop derailing this important discussion with your own OFF-TOPIC political ideology discussions! If you want to discuss mechanisms for improving democratic processes start a discusssion on that in the lounge where it belongs where you can cmpare multi-party systems around the world to your hearts content. If you want to discuss political philosophy again start up a discussion in the lounge where you can discuss Locke's views on the Social Contract and Rawl's opinion of the State Of Nature till you actually understand some of these centuries-old ideologies!

So your a Libertarian or a Majoritarain or a Communist or a Liberal Socialist or a Nationalist or whatever the term is for the supporters of the Monster Raving Loony Party.. so what! There are people trying to hurt us and people trying to stop them. You can find ways to help Transgender people and oppose attempts to harm us no matter your damn ideology!

So if your gonna mention your ideology here it should, to be cogent to this discussion, be along the lines of "Well as a libertarian im opposed to specific protected catagories however i too can oppose these harmful lies at least by... and I can help ensure that there is universal equality without resorting to protected catagories by..." etc!

GAINESVILLE, Fla., March 24, 2009 – Equality is Gainesville’s Business (EQGB) applauds Gainesville voters for saying no to discrimination in Gainesville. Voters rejected the discriminatory ballot measure by a 58 percent to 42 percent margin. Charter Amendment 1 would have removed Gainesville’s existing nondiscrimination protections for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people, some of which have been in place for more than a decade.

WOOHOOO!

Thanks for that awesome news Peka!

Thats one victory!

... and yet there's Kalamzoo and so many others in various stages of the same battle! There's already been losses and now we have 1 victory. So which will it be in your city or county or state CDs of America? That may well depend on you joining in!

For over a year, supporters of Charter Amendment 1 have waged a fear-based campaign that blatantly lied to voters about the intent and impact of Charter Amendment 1 and specifically targeted transgender people with harmful discrimination. The sweeping language of the ballot initiative, which was written by a far right conservative group in Michigan, would have prohibited the City of Gainesville from providing nondiscrimination protections beyond the minimal protections set forth in the Florida Civil Rights Act.

The concern is that even with the legislative battle won in this one place the TG people there TS and CD alike may face increased violence because of that fear campain. So the fight to educate people there cannot be considered over. And there is still so many places where this fight is moving to and spreading to where they are also using this fear and hatred! And when the attempt for a Federal ENDA comes in, probably later this year or next year, then the fear ads will go national! we better start getting ready for that before it hits or all American TG people may suffer, and with the American content on the net propagating all over the world everyone of us needs to be concerned about hate-spreading ads on youtube etc.

“Today Gainesville voters showed that they value the rights of all citizens,” said EQGB Chair and Gainesville City Commissioner Craig Lowe. “They have rejected the politics of fear and instead chose to retain the values that make our city such a beautiful place. Today, our voters showed their true character by emphasizing that, in Gainesville, every person matters.“

That is awesome!

“Supporters of Charter Amendment 1 waged a campaign that blatantly lied to voters about the protections Gainesville has provided transgender citizens.” stated Joe Saunders EQGB campaign manager. “By targeting transgender people, proponents of Charter Amendment 1 have proven the need for inclusive anti-discrimination laws. Voter’s embraced Gainesville’s anti-discrimination laws tonight when they rejected Amendment 1.”

We need to show to the broader community the reality of those lies.
I'm very curious to see what tactics worked in Gainseville that have not worked elsewhere.

While not all these groups are national I reccomend people peruse this list for those they may feel they can support, that fit their ideology and that may well be a vital part of the fight when it comes to your town and attempts to have you arrested for what bathroom you want to use! Lets list them again shall we:

In the last year a broad array of organizations came out to publicly oppose Charter Amendment 1. These organizations include: the Anti-Defamation League - Florida, the ACLU of Florida, Equality Florida, the Human Rights Campaign, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, the National Center for Transgender Equality, Lambda Legal, National Center for Lesbian Rights, Organizations United Together (O.U.T.), UM (University of Miami) for Equality, Florida Association of Planned Parenthood Affiliates, Florida NOW, Gainesville Area NOW, Judy Levy NOW PAC, Alachua County Democratic Party, Alachua County Green Party, Alachua County/Gainesville League of Women Voters, Alachua County NAACP, Gainesville Area Chamber of Commerce, Gainesville Area AIDS Project (GAAP), Gainesville Commission on the Status of Women, Human Rights Council of North Central Florida, Interweave, Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of Gainesville, North Central Florida Central Labor Council, Pride Center of North Central Florida, Social Justice Council of the Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of Gainesville, Trinity Metropolitan Community Church, United Church of Gainesville Social Concerns Committee, University of Florida Students for Change, Students for a Democratic Society @ UF, Wild Iris Books and Wild Words Café, University of Florida Faculty Senate, University of Florida Presidential LGBT Concerns, and University of Florida Student Senate.

EDIT: Looks like it's New Hampshire today http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=10054
Expect fireworks as the New Hampshire House debates a marriage equality bill along with a transgender rights bill. (Concord Monitor):

Last week, the House Judiciary Committee deadlocked, 10-10, on a bill that would permit same-sex couples to marry in New Hampshire. Two years ago, the same committee paved the way for the law creating civil unions for same-sex couples.

Backers of the bill call it a simple equal-rights measure; opponents say it's a dangerous change to an old social institution.

The Judiciary Committee also deadlocked last week 10-10 on a bill that would add an individuals' transgender status to the state's nondiscrimination laws, along with other factors such as age, sex, national origin and race.

Proponents say it would prevent landlords and employers from discriminating against those born as one sex but who identify as the other, some of whom seek sex-change procedures. Opponents dubbed it the "bathroom bill" and claimed it would allow men to prowl women's restrooms.

And again it's lies being spread from a group aimed against us:
Anyone who has predicted an end to the culture war needs only to look toward New Hampshire this week. There, state leaders are debating a radical menu of issues that could forever change the landscape of the family in New England. After a deadlock in the Judiciary Committee, two bills are heading to the house floor tomorrow for what is certain to be an impassioned debate. The first, H.B. 415, is a "bathroom bill," which in the name of tolerance would allow cross-dressers to use public facilities regardless of their biological sex. As FRC has argued, the most important issue at stake in this legislation isn't gender sensitivity but public safety. In the end, this policy could backfire, creating a hiding place for sexual predators who prey on men, women, and children.

There we go. The same lies about rapists and pedophiles even though such protections have existed in some places longer than I have been alive with no problems caused at all!

Maryland, Gainseville, Kalamazoo, New Hampshire... when will it be your town, your county, your state?

cd_britney_426

03-25-2009, 02:22 AM

Wow what a thread! I certainly do think people should do something but the question is where to begin. You aren't going to have instant change but there are ways of improving. One method is education. Simply speaking out in as many ways as possible will help TG causes. The more people realize that TGs are as normal or abnormal as anyone else, the less we will be treated as second-class citizens. Another method is exposure. The more you express yourself as a CD or TS (or whatever fits you) proudly and confidently, the more people will pick up on that. The more exposure people have to TGs and TG issues and the more they see it as normal, then more progress will be made.

As to the laws, I don't believe in babying people or creating special-interest cases, but I do believe in common-sense non-discrimination policies. For instance, legalize the right for individuals to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with. Existing laws relating to disorderly conduct, voyeurism, indecent exposure, etc. would still apply. The difference is that someone who is simply going in to do his or her business without bothering anyone should no longer be criminalized. As to exmployment, I do support gender identity and expression in non-discrimination policies as well. That doesn't mean a company has to hire or cannot fire someone who happens to fit a given group. I don't support that and I am against "affirmative action." People should be advanced or demoted in society by merit not by status. If a TG person happens to be more qualified for a position, then that should be the factor in hiring--not that they are TG. Likewise, if a TG person only shows up to work half of the time, that should be the reason they are fired--not because they are TG.

Someone on here mentioned something about "don't go into a bathroom dressed if you are afraid of being beaten up." That is ridiculous. While I do believe in using basic street smarts, I don't believe in dodging the issue here. This is a country (US) that prides itself on "freedom of speech" and "freedom of expression." You can't say we are "free" if you have to worry about being killed simply for dressing a certain way. I believe that the question of violence should be a balance between personal responsibility and government responsibility. Starting with personal responsibility, we also have "the right to keep and bear arms." Unfortunately, not all states abide by this but in most states you can carry a gun either openly or concealed and may require you to get a permit. If that is not for you, then you are free to learn martial arts. Regardless, take responsibility for your safety. As to government responsibility, while I don't want a police state, our tax dollars are used for police enforcement. Beating someone to a pulp because "they don't like 'faggots'" is a felony assault. If the city is more concerned about making sure every parking ticket is paid but simply considers violent assaults against TGs a "minor issue" then we have a problem. I would consider it corruption that needs fixing.

Anyway, good discussion and nobody ruin it! :) Britney

battybattybats

03-25-2009, 08:50 AM

Batty,

I actually have to disagree with it going off topic, a tangent perhaps, but not off topic.

It was close to the topic but certainly over the line into off.

How Americas democracy could be reformed is seperate from how to achieve positive results in it currently as it is. Therefore reform is a seperate (worthy but utterly seperate) topic.

Arguing which Ideology is correct is also useless. Thats an argument centuries old. It shall not be resolved here. So it only serves as a distraction from this subject. In a thread of its own thats fair enough but in this one it is not.

Discussion of how each ideology could in its way support TG equality and philosophies of social justice within them that are applicable might be on topic. But diatribes as to how one ideology is correct or left this vs right that are again counter-productive. Those arguments will not be ended in this discussion. I'd love a discussion on such philosophy but its superfluous to this topic and deserves its own thread (and if it crosses the lines for mods people are welcome to have that discussion on my blog).

How can we determine the best way to fight for our rights without an understanding of the political process here?

Oh that I agree with! BUT the posts im complaining about are not explanation of, questions about or discussions of the current system and how to work within it!

Right now we are under attack. Waiting for or struggling towards first the Libertarian Party to get the balance of political power or waiting to reform the USA system of voting will only result in more TG people being harmed.

And more importantly how can we fight for our rights, if we can't find a common ground on the process of gaining our rights?

Do we need a unified front? A unified tactic? Actually I don't think so!
If everyone speaks against the lies we all prosper even if only some try and get TG protetions passed while others try and get Religion protections removed.

The various tactics can work in concert! And as not everyone will agree with every tactic then finding as many different ways we can all contribute would be far more valuable than to decide on one way that only say 3/4ths of us will contribute to.

It seems to me as a necessary precursor to your question.

I disagree. But i could always be wrong.

Step one is finding the path that draws the most support

That is useful... but that way need not be exclusive and i think finding ways everyone can contribute is actually MORE important. There are already organisations fighting for TG rights. I'm sure some amongst us might be good leaders in the movement but right now we arent the leaders in progressing TG rights legislation...

Were the silent masses letting the gains be lost. What these groups need is for us all to do just a little. As many of us as possible to lend just a little effort.

Step two would be to implement that path to draw a battle line against the opposing force.

Pretty sure thats already been done! The battle has already started! The TSs are already on the front lines! Yet we are letting those brave few do our fighting for us. We need to lend support on the front lines or with supplies!

Maybe indeed we can help redraw the battle map later, but skirmishes have already been lost and been won.

Its a lot like combat, without full and complete situational awareness, your just shooting in the dark.

Sure. But in this case the battles already going on and what isneeded is not just soldiers but ammunition, supplies etc.

If we have a full and firm grasp of the whole picture, then its possible to make an informed decision thats much more likely to find success. Lets face it, our opponents are far ahead of us on this part.

Ahead of us on this forum? yes. Ahead of TG advocate groups though? The first of these laws they are fighting to prevent and destroy went into effect in 1975!

As things are happening right now our first act should be to get as many as possible to counter the lies no matter their ideology or degree of closeting.

And for those who approve of the laws to support them, for those who approve of groups to support them. But above all to counteract the lies that hurt all of us no matter our views on adding Transgender to existing protected classes. The lies above all everyone can oppsoe surely?
Then we can work out how best to act next.

Sure discussing what forms of support and action are effective makes sense. Sure discussing how USA legislative and lobbying and voting systems operate related to these issues makes sense.

But arguing the particulars of ideology unrelated to how a person of one or another ideology can lend support is plain side-tracking. As is discussing ways in which the USA democracy could be improved. As worthy of discussion as they are they are unneccessary to this discussion.

JulieK1980

03-25-2009, 04:21 PM

hmmm wasn't attempting to argue the actual ideologies in that last post. Just attempting to argue the validity of an understanding of what the system is and trying to find ways to "do something" as the thread suggests. Unfortunately I see I wasn't making that clear enough.

Fraid I'll have to leave this discussion as I see an interconnection between my points and the topic of the thread and don't know any way to seperate the two without another post deletion.

Sorry to have offended.

LA CINDY LOVE

03-25-2009, 04:39 PM

Batty I do agree with you it is time we all do something........but just the way I see Cd's here jumping on one other here .........I just do NOT see it happing here.

It is going to take more then a thread post to make a change and to change people minds, a hate group is never going to change there mind or there way of thinking so why wast your time with them or thinking about them.

Women, gays and African Americans made big changes in this country, but with women and African Americans they could not hide in the closet and had to face violence and abuse and it was that violence and abuse that got them organize and out of it came N.O.W, Black Power and DR King and his non violence demonstration

The gay community had a lot in the closet but for those who were out of the closet they face the same violence and abuse, it was that violence and abuse at a gay club by the hands of the police that was a cause for a riot that got a lot out of the closet and got them organize and out of that organization came the gay movement.

All three of these groups were very organize, well funded and had a number of high profiled/famous actors, writers, musician and politician to help champion there cause............what do we have and who do we have we have...............we a long way to go I do hope we make it one day.

LA CINDY LOVE

mklinden2010

03-25-2009, 08:43 PM

Surely, you're kidding... Just throwing out some bait, right?

"We" have a long way to go?

None of the groups you mentioned had anything to start with but each individual in their own unhappy individual situation.

"Beat up, beat down, beat to the punch - every time."

But... One by one, here and there, individuals, on their own, said, "Enough of this!" Many, many people died making this decision and taking action on it. Many many more suffered. But, the world has changed because individuals - on both "sides" - eventually realized they were standing shoulder to shoulder and eye to eye with... People, just people.

LCL, your post rankles me a great deal. "We got nothing. We'll never have nothing. Our list is blank..."

Call the Waaabulance.

Posts this week - today - have included people getting arrested - and going home safely. People have been "harmlessly" outed by their neighbors. People have been flustered at the store and have blurted out, "Oh, these panties are for me!" People have gone to the bank dressed and have just done regular business. People have been telling their kids... And all are are alive and well as you read this. Not at all how things would have played out in the past...

Folks, this war is largely over. All this thread was about was how to win and keep the peace. No one "credible" is gunning for this group. Just have the guts to do what you want to do - without hurting anyone - and INSIST that you be left alone to pursue your own path in life. And, be smart, buy yourself some "insurance" and give money where it makes sense, march when you can, and speak up for yourself and what you care about - early and often.

Lead, follow, and, get out of your own way.

On a historical side note, I seem to recall that the so-called Stonewall Riot(s) was (were) started by Crossdressers and/or Drag Queens.

It seems the guys in dresses wanted to be treated, like, well, guys... Guys who had the same rights as everyone else but for what they happened to be wearing that night. Unlike some folks in that bar, they were actually used to being treated better - the rest of the time. So, they had "enough" and here we are today reading these amazing posts of people living better lives. Not perfect... But, whose life is ever perfect?

That "Riot" got taken up in the common culture as a "Gay initiative", but my recollection of it was the event didn't start out that way and that it wasn't one event but several over a couple of days.

Whether they initiated the thing or not, they, CDers, were there at the start and still there at the finish...

So, where's my damn "CDer Pride" bumper sticker?

(Dibs)

battybattybats

03-25-2009, 09:44 PM

It is going to take more then a thread post to make a change and to change people minds, a hate group is never going to change there mind or there way of thinking so why wast your time with them or thinking about them.

The idea is not to change the minds of the hate group. The idea is that as the hate group are trying to change the general populaces minds in one direction with lies that we should use truth to cancel that out! To negate the effect of the lies. That wont change the minds of the hate group. It will stop the hate group from spreading hate.

The gay community had a lot in the closet but for those who were out of the closet they face the same violence and abuse, it was that violence and abuse at a gay club by the hands of the police that was a cause for a riot that got a lot out of the closet and got them organize and out of that organization came the gay movement.

Actually the two main riots, Compton Cafeteria and Stonewall, were about crossdressing! It was Crossdressers Drag Queens and Transsexuals being targeted. It was a law against crossdressing used to make arrests (more than 3 items of clothing belonging to the opposite sex and you got arrested! iirc). It was the misstreatment of a Butch Lesbian and a Transsexual (yet to transition as most then were so in fact at the time a crossdresser) that sparked the violence and it was the crossdressers and drag queens (not that any distinctions were made between them then) that were at the centre of the rioting!

Those were Crossdressing Riots! But Gays joined in and they were the ones that organised (and pushed out many of the TG folk, Sylvia Rivera, one of the first rioters being literally forced out of celebrations of the riot she helped start!). So they simply got inspired by OUR riot and they used it to inspire and organise! While most of the rest of US sat around in our closets in fear letting the Heroes and Heroines struggle alone and benefiting from the gains they made through tremendous bravery and suffering.

All three of these groups were very organize, We can organise too. VD's alone appear to outnumber Gays and Lesbians!
well funded Imagine if we each donated 10% of our weekly girl-stuff budget! That would be a heck of a lot of money! Especially from the closeted folks as they have better jobs on average than the out folks!
and had a number of high profiled/famous actors, writers, musician and politician to help champion there cause............
We have a few, but most are closeted or under exposed (like the transwoman who worked with composer John Williams on most of the biggest movie themes of the last 20 odd years who died recently). There will be closetted CD politicians, writers, actors, musicians etc. And if we got behing those who are out and helped them prosper then we;d have many more!

So we should buy the TG books, the TG CDs and DVDs.. not just on those subjects but by those people. Thats what a lot of other minorities have done. Financially supported the prosperity of their own people so that their community gained economic power and visibility making it career-viable to be out!

We do have TG politicians at varying levels in countries around the world. TG authors, musicians, comedians, actors etc. We should actually support them and watch that make a massive difference.

what do we have and who do we have we have...............we a long way to go I do hope we make it one day.

We just need to start doing the easy little things.

Perhaps on a set day next month we should all but an Eddie Izzard DVD rather than watching him on youtube. One where he is dressed on the DVD, not some movie he was in. Make it a 'buy Transgender stuff and support the community' day or something. The out folk could spread awareness of it on facebook and myspace. Closeted folk could just tell their folks 'I saw some of this on youtube and thought it was funny' if anyone questions them or they are scared someone will.

Pink Person

03-25-2009, 10:04 PM

I have decided to vote for RuPaul in the next presidential election. In the meantime, I am willing to donate money to worthy national or international TG organizations. Batty, perhaps you can rate some of the largest organizations for us. You don't have to do it, but you seem to be very well informed, and I would trust your opinions if you would like to share them.

battybattybats

03-26-2009, 08:23 AM

In the meantime, I am willing to donate money to worthy national or international TG organizations. Batty, perhaps you can rate some of the largest organizations for us. You don't have to do it, but you seem to be very well informed, and I would trust your opinions if you would like to share them.

Well I really don't know enough to do that properly. I only have what I've observed, mostly from afar and 2nd hand (except on the HBS crowd, more on them later) but I will give my impressions.

Certainly many GLBT groups are very light on the T. HRC went against a public promise to only back a gender including ENDA only to then push for one that only protected sexuality. Now they say they wouldn't support ENDA without gender protection but they said that before on camera (the speech is on youtube) and went back on their promise. They also have done many other things which have deeply upset many transgender advocates (trying to take over TDOR events to drum up funds is one!) so I really would be carefull handing a cent to them! So if it's a GLBT group better check their record on T issues. Stonewall UK (not Stonewall Scotland, I've heard they are better) is another seriously dodgy group as they apparently have hardly done anything for TG people and worse they nominated notorious TG-hating lesbian journalist Julie Bindel for an award!

I've heard good things about NCTE (national center for transgender equality), TAVA (for transgender veterans). PFLAG (parents and friends of lesbians and gays, they apparently support TG kids too and are responsible for a lot of the work to help TG kids in schools, though I've heard there are also specific groups for tg youth as well as an organisation for parents of tg kids! There is also at least one FAKE tg kids group that is actually full of biased HBS missinformation so please check carefully!). Lambda Legal (a legal group) has done a lot of good work from what I've read and have helped many TG people. There are also T-including or specific shelters like the one in New York run by a priest (who shielded an attacked Transwoman with his own body at one point!) and TRans-accepting churches that do charity work that may be worth looking into for the religously minded.

When deciding on a group to support (and its not a bad idea to try and support both national and local a bit if you can) you should do a little research so I'll give some pointers.

Stay away from anything that mentions Harry Benjamin Syndrome (the theory that there is a bilogical cause for TS) too much (a little is ok) as some HBS advocates (including their founder!) are crossdresser-haters! Avoid sites that emphasise True-Transsexuals or Classic Transsexuals. They are also crossdresser-haters and hate many transsexuals too that dont fit the narrow extremist HBS version! There has already been one alleged casualty of the HBS bigots as the allegedly bullied one TS to conform to their narrow standards so badly on one email group she killed herself.

Look for clear signs of full transgender inclusion, not groups catering only or too much mainly to transsexuals or only to crossdressers or to binary folk as those harm everyone with exclusionary practices, internecine bickering and spanner-in-works opposition to each others needs. Look for clear signs of full sexuality inclusion too as any group that is biased against Gay CDs/TSs bisexual ones or is hostile to straight ones too. Thats important as many same-sex issues are TG issues too, like gay marriage.. if a 'straight' CD transitions legally they are now in a same-sex marriage and in many places are forcibly divorced!

Look for TG successes. Have they won any of the fights they've been involved in on TG issues?

All organisations can make a few mistakes here and there (or do a few good things against their normal pattern) so try and get a balanced view of their record.

Above all, dont break the bank in huge donations, a little when you can is best. Keep a chunk for reserve if a fight goes local and you need to put more in quickly when the fight gets personal. Groups can get better or worse over time too so only be as loyal to an organisation as they are being to you, support those who support you.

And I'm seriously still looking for a decent group in my own state! We have some HBS bigot groups on one side and a branch of the Seahorse Society (group for crossdressers) on the other and the Gender Centre in Sydney but that seems to be more about helping TG people (mostly TS from what I've heard) with their imediate needs not legislative advocacy (and so might be good as a charity perhaps) and many of the Gay and Lesbian groups seem pretty biased against Bi and Trans issues but no decent umbrella-group I can yet find and I expect thats been contributing to why NSW has big holes in its legislation and no state bill of rights! So if anyone knows of one please let me know!

I'll keep an eye out for more (positive and negative) details and more groups and mention them here. I'd appreciate it if others do likewise.