Relinquishing Privilege

[Jan W]

I have recently been interested in reading of post op girls who regret their decision to become women.

One of the factors leading to this is their alleged reduced status in society as a women as opposed to once being a man.

This is for those of us with TS tendencies - do you see yourself in post op life as a reduced status person?

If so, do you see that as a problem?

I have my own views but will reserve them until later.


Jan

[tamarav]

Soemthing seems inherently wrong with a TS seeking SRS only to become disenchanted with being a woman. Being a woman is its own class, not to be relinquished to second class status. I have been chasing femininity and the spectre of the female for my entire life and cannot understand how anyone could think of making such a huge change in their life and then regretting it.

Something was not complete at the onset of the transition. That is my only thought. I fully stand behind anyone that transitions but I want to be sure that they understand the full meaning of the life. Women place themselves in the class that they end up in, if they believe that women are second class citizens and they transition, then they will become second class citizens.

If I were to transition, I pity anyone that tried to stand in front of me to stop me from being who I wanted to be.

[TxKimberly]

. . .
If I were to transition, I pity anyone that tried to stand in front of me to stop me from being who I wanted to be. . .

OUTSTANDING post Tamara!

[GypsyKaren]

Someone needs to remind Oprah about her lower status as a woman...the whole thing is preposterous and it sounds like they're using it as an excuse for other shortcomings or problems.

Karen :g2:

[Diane24]

I am in my eleventh year as a post-op TS. I've never felt that I was a "second class" citizen. It may be that my chosen profession is teaching. I work in an elementary school that has mostly women teachers. The Principal is a man, but we manage him quite well! From the beginning I chose to keep my TS background a secret. (It's easy in the education field since most of us are from all over the country.) I admire the TS's who transition on the job and manage to stick it out through all the public "nonsense!"
I love my job, I love being a woman!

[deja true]

Exactly right, Tamara and Karen !

In our Western societies, as men or women, we choose our status. It is not "inflicted' on us. Low self esteem as a man will produce a woman with low self esteem if that problem (which is not related to gender identity) is not taken care of first!

No guts, no glory, bitches!

:bringiton:

[Carole Cross]

I certainly won't consider myself as aperson with reduced status. Just because I was born the wrong gender doesn't make me feel like a sub species, I am still human.

[Lisa Golightly]

I've only noticed a shift in attitude in relationships... but it's not reduced status just a different role. In the business world I'm still good at what I do, and customers are still happy... I've still got the vote :)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

male privilige vs. female privilige???? if your internal identity is that of a female...i can't imagine this would stop someone from transitioning.

i'm not aware of large population of unhappy regretful women that have transitioned and then untransitioned..

in fact, it also occurs to me that if this is such a big deal, why don't more women transition to men just to "earn" that supposedly wonderful privilige

it's about your identity and living YOUR life...not about gaining or losing priviliges..
:2c:

[Jan W]

Well said ladies. I could not agree more.

It is my belief that the people who find themselves in the situation of regretting their decision to become women were either misdiagnosed or not yet ready to transition.

I do not for one second subscribe to the second class theory. I know that women have a strength and position of their own that in a lot of ways gives a woman a unique and powerful place in society.

No names but my research in the subject stemmed from a well known American journalist who announced his transition and then de transitioned after a hail of publicity.

I wonder how his life has changed and his relationships with his family, friends and colleagues. I also wonder if he will attempt to transition again at a later time when things are right for him.


Jan

[Sarah...]

This is for those of us with TS tendencies - do you see yourself in post op life as a reduced status person?


Absolutely not! The notion of "male privilege" is seriously outdated. Come on, anything men can do we can do just as well. Sometimes better :)

Sarah...

[Karen564]

I believe anyone that regretted the Full transition just weren't very honest with themselves from the very beginning, and I feel no pity for them at all, but I think it's rare to find many that ever regretted it anyways.

Personally, I have never felt very privileged living a mans life, as far as male status, sure, I have it I guess if you want to call it that, but I never really wanted it, and men can have it, but when the day comes that I take the final step to live as a post-op woman for the rest of my life, I will then feel very privileged to finally match the body with the person I always was inside, I just cant imagine myself any other way now, so it just wouldn't matter to me what status level womanhood brings with it, but I sure dont worry about any reduced status as a woman because I'm more than willing to deal with that any day than living as man. And I'm more than 110% sure that is one decision I will Never regret no matter what..!!

Male status is way overrated anyways.. Women Rule!!!

[morgan pure]

Frankly-people treat women differently that they treat men. It's like wearing a suit or overalls- or jeans or a leopard dress, or Dior. Male priviledge is no myth. BUT, girls have their ways. They are not powerless.

If you decide to be a woman in public then you are accepting a different role in society. That's a big deal. But many of us have been living that role sometimes vicariously and sometimes all too really. But don't worry, it's better to be a woman than a cd in the average middle class world view. That's why I try to hang out with young women-they're more open to divergent models of behavior.

[noeleena]

hi... i do know of very few that have said at that time being male then going over to live as women then changing back to male ...i have wondered why ,&?? that . to me where they really a trans person... hmmm......for me being andro . i have the mind of both . what i wear does not enter in to that . its your mind that is at stake not your body..
All though i hated male clothes so now i can wear female . its me in side that really counts . as to who i am...i never hated my body like some . just a little bit of detail was not quite right .or lack of . okay it would have been nice to have a womb & a baby ... i have to live with that . well with out . you know what i mean . i am just happy being me . for what & who i am . & with a little bit of help. i can live as a women . as i say with a male back ground ....it may be odd. it works for me . oh how am i seen is there a difference like you say males being higher up the ladder than women. may be i am not sure in what context you mean i dont have that . as i wont be bossed about by those who think they are better than any one else male or female . i just leave them alone .i can pull rank if i have to . yet i dont need to i find most people are okay . it.s like all walks in life its how you go about things & how you accept your self .......
...noeleena...

[SirTrey]

Having transitioned the opposite way (I've been on T for over a year and I am passing now with no problem), I can offer perspective from the other side....I don't feel that I have gained "privelege" per se, it's just different....Having seen life from both sides of the fence, I think there is a form of privelege on BOTH sides....Women have a lot of considerations given them that men do not....I don't think that either is better, it's just different....I didn't transition to gain anything but the ability to live my life in the right gender, that is MY privelege....being comfortable....feeling right....If a person transitions and regrets it, it is probably because they jumped into it too soon and/or did not correctly identify their inner gender and their needs....I seriously doubt that the real problem is loss of "male privelege"....**Trey**

[Jan W]

Thank you Trey for your thoughts on the matter.

I 100 percent agree with you in that the priveleges are there but different.

Thanks again.

Love,


Jan

[SirTrey]

Thank you Trey for your thoughts on the matter.

I 100 percent agree with you in that the priveleges are there but different.

Thanks again.

Love,


Jan

Thanks, Jan....Was just thinking about this whole topic and how things are different since I transitioned and a few examples popped into My head....One is that before I transitioned, I had doors opened for me (whether I wanted it or not)...things carried up and down steps (sometimes literally taken out of my hand despite protest from me)....I had to fight for the right to change my own tire....you know what I mean....that is privelege, as well....just a different kind....and, on a hot August day, when you are moving, it doesn't suck, LOL....point being, there are definite considerations/priveleges given on both sides....and there is nothing wrong with that (my opinion)....I just enjoy being who and what I am and I don't really think about "privelege"....It's really just about just living and letting the chips fall where they may....I would rather be the one GIVING the considerations to women (and I do, I am a gentleman at all times)...and, if I have "privelege", it's because women tend to give it to me BECAUSE I am one....not because I am a guy.

[Jan W]

Great Post Trey.

Love your point of view.

You are the kind of man I often think about.


Jan

[SirTrey]

Great Post Trey.

Love your point of view.

You are the kind of man I often think about.


Jan

Awwwww, thanks Jan.....:) I guess I see it this way.....I ADORE women....I think women are the greatest thing since sliced bread....I just never WAS one....I am MORE than happy to give women all the privelege that they, as the beautiful, wonderful creatures they are, deserve....Women are amazing....Inferior to men? Oh, I think NOT.....The BEST thing about being a man is being able to take care of women....and that is most definitely a form of privelege on BOTH sides.....:D **Trey**

[Kelsy]

I have recently been interested in reading of post op girls who regret their decision to become women.

One of the factors leading to this is their alleged reduced status in society as a women as opposed to once being a man.

This is for those of us with TS tendencies - do you see yourself in post op life as a reduced status person?

If so, do you see that as a problem?

I have my own views but will reserve them until later.


Jan


I never have had an elevated status, kind of at the low end of the male pecking order all because I didn't fit the expected male role!

Kelsy

[Joy Carter]

I never have had an elevated status, kind of at the low end of the male pecking order all because I didn't fit the expected male role!

Kelsy

Same here girlfriend.

[Violetgray]

I think that some people here may be confused concerning the whole "male privilege" concept.

Women throughout history have had to deal with stricter standards of beauty, glass ceilings, open and disguised misogyny, lower pay, and people making all manner of assumptions about them in a work environment based on their gender. The workplace is still for now a male dominated field, though that is changing.

The question is, was transitioning worth all the bad things that society heaps upon women?

Of course it is. TS's are brave enough to risk losing EVERYTHING. the wife, the kids, the car, the dog, the goldfish, even the playstation. Man still do try to treat women as second class citizens, but after risking everything just to be who you are, there's nowhere to go but up!

[MJ]

i have never felt like a "second class" citizen my surgery is soon but i can't help wondering out of all those girls who regret there choice did they rush in where angels fear to tread?

i cringe when i hear about girls who after 3 months get there letter for surgery and rush to get it done.

In my humble opinion Transition takes time becoming a woman is hard work on many fronts you don't get a PhD over night. so how does one expect to master womanhood in just 3 to 6 months post op.

What hurts the most is these same people then get upset at the doctors who help them become what they wanted in the first place

I am blessed to have good friends trans and none trans who have helped me in my travels and i for one most defiantly not second class citizen

[morgan pure]

Thank you, Trey. You've been in both places, and describe them well. I've only had tastes of real "girl" consciousness-walking down the street on a nice guy's arms only a few times. When I was young I passed often, and had some interesting experiences.
As for the special treatment of men: in the past in meetings I would speak and everyone would get quiet and listen, lately they think I'm a flake. I HAVE become a flake, but that's because in my little fantasy world I've become a girl and girls are allowed to be flaky. Aren't they?
Ps, my darling ex has called me a girl more than once, and pointed out overly femme behavior as not attractive.

[Rayne1]

It sounds like those who regretted the SRS were maybe not screened by their therapist first. I don't think there is anything second class about being a women. Maybe you are referring to how the role of women in the workplace in an inequity of pay scale for the same type of work.

[Wendi {LI NY}]

[QUOTE=MJ;1657582]i have never felt like a "second class" citizen my surgery is soon but i can't help wondering out of all those girls who regret there choice did they rush in where angels fear to tread?

i cringe when i hear about girls who after 3 months get there letter for surgery and rush to get it done.

In my humble opinion Transition takes time becoming a woman is hard work on many fronts you don't get a PhD over night. so how does one expect to master womanhood in just 3 to 6 months post op.

What hurts the most is these same people then get upset at the doctors who help them become what they wanted in the first place

mj, you are so so right .I seen to many girls that I feel rush to get the surgery and don't know how to act or live like a women:eek:
As for second class citizen ,I never feel like that .I feel superior to men now as a women.:) Women have the power ,but we have know how to use it !:D

[Melissa A.]

Someone asked a very well-known transwoman how it felt to transition, only to become a second-class citizen, on television once. She gave a very long and thoughtful answer, but the gist of it was that this is who she was, no matter what, along with the good and the not-so-great. But this was in the early 80's, and times were a bit different. I sometimes do worry about my new-found vulnerability, ever-increasing lack of physical strength, and the fact that I have to be wary around men I havent learned to completely trust yet. I also see-and those who work in predominantly male, mostly blue collar jobs will agree-alot of misogyny and some really nasty resentment towards women in the way many men still talk, even today. Some of the jokes I hear are beyond cruel and stupid. (and cowardly, since most of them would never talk that way around women). But overall, I would have to agree. In most of our day-to-day lives, women really dont need to take a back seat to men in any way.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Beth-Lock]

A lot of marriages would not fail if people had longer engagements, and got to know each other better. I know that is old fashioned, but...

With transitions, perhaps a longer time in the real life test stage is needed, before SRS/GRS. Maybe one year is really nothing. And maybe before the Real Life Test, some experience at what is merely the occasional cross-dressing stage is called for. Maybe that would result in less dissatisfaction, if only people had more patience than they do these days. You don't complete an apprenticeship in a few months, and getting into a new gender is definitely a sort of apprenticeship at the beginning.

[kellycan27]

Transitioning has never really been an issue, just a date in the future that I looked forward to. Living full time for the past 3-1/2 years or so 24/7 has solidified my desire, and courage to have my outside match my inside. it would just serve as a finishing touch if you will and add greatly to what I have so far found to be a very peaceful,satisfying and beautiful existence.I don'y buy into a woman being a second class citizen. there is nothing that I can think of that I would want to do, but couldn't because of not being male.
The person who posted this thread asked to hear from those who have regretted transitioning, and so far I haven't seen any negitive responses. Opinions on how long one should "wait" or how they should "live" before transitioning from those who have not transitioned .. are just that..opinions,based on what... I don't know. I don't really have an opinion on what I think others should do, only an opinion on how I feel in regards to myself. SRS is definetly in my near future, it's not a matter of time waited, or experience living as a woman. having a penis or a vagina isn't going to change how I already see myself...either way I would still continue to live the life I have chosen... SRS may serve to complement and complete me,but the bottom line is that I am and will always be a female. I believe that for some of us, it's a matter of what we feel in our heads and hearts... from our core, not something that we do on a lark. I didn't follow any kind of guide or timetable.... I just knew that I needed to do it.

[CharleneT]

I have a post -op TS friend who also regrets full transition ( now after 7 years ). Her reasoning is curious and rather personal, but the gist is that she feels that "if I knew I could have solved my problems without the full transition, I would not have done it". She doesn't regret the path itself, just where she ended up and why. I have never found out exactly what she means. I do know that she doesn't regret it because of her status or how she is treated.

I am curious if your friend did a RLT for a year or so ?

[Hali]

I think that some people here may be confused concerning the whole "male privilege" concept.

Women throughout history have had to deal with stricter standards of beauty, glass ceilings, open and disguised misogyny, lower pay, and people making all manner of assumptions about them in a work environment based on their gender. The workplace is still for now a male dominated field, though that is changing.

The question is, was transitioning worth all the bad things that society heaps upon women?

Of course it is. TS's are brave enough to risk losing EVERYTHING. the wife, the kids, the car, the dog, the goldfish, even the playstation. Man still do try to treat women as second class citizens, but after risking everything just to be who you are, there's nowhere to go but up!

Down here (Africa) women have reduced status and the number of those women run into hundreds or millions.

May be in the U.S or Europe the status might not be as low as in the third world (Africa in particular) but i assure you in many parts of the world especially in the developing world women are treated with a little bit of skepticism in the working environment.

[tori-e]

This is for those of us with TS tendencies - do you see yourself in post op life as a reduced status person?



Absolutely not. But perhaps its just the time and place and perhaps because I know lots of woman that are on equal footing with men. When I was living as a man, my wife and I were always equal partners. Maybe this is because we got married in the 70's when equal rights was becoming the new order. Or maybe because she is just such a intelligent woman.

Interestingly, before I transitioned I was mortified at the idea of being a 5' 10" woman. Now I see that as an advantage, standing around the coffee room with men that are shorter than me.:devil::battingeyelashes:

On the other hand, the hardware store is a funny place. Men think that as a women you are clueless. I have to bite my lip, while at the same time I'm laughing to myself.

Regrets? No chance!

Terri

[Veronica_Jean]

I don't see it as a reduced status, but I do think that women have to fight harder and be better than men to get equality in pay and recognition.

I think it is like a lot of things, If you realize in advance that this goes along with everything else, then you just adapt. I could no more not transition because of the way women are treated than I could stop breathing.

I agree that it is not less, but different. Women are treated differently and as a result have to approach things in a different way to achieve the same goal. Perhaps it is this difference that causes the feeling that is is a lower status.