Observations from a Sunday

[Lorileah]

Ok not just a Sunday but the whole weekend.

I spent this weekend mostly at a huge Volleyball tournament that involved 16-18 year old girls. Having played AA and A volleyball in my younger years ( I preferred so called women's sports over men's in those day) I was interested in seeing how it had changed. The answer to that was tremendously.

But being bored in between matches my mind wandered to CD's and how they always say they want to blend in. Believe me it isn't that hard.

Almost every one of the girls could have been a boy. Body shape (or lack there of) made most these girls look physically like teen boys with differing sizes of boobs. Most had no indentation from the ribs to the hips and many were straight all the ways to the knees. Butts were rare. When they did have curves it was pot bellies and love handles. They walked like guys they talked like guys. I didn't see one who was light on her feet but instead the "Clomped" flat footed or shuffled. They did wear make-up (and it would make many a drag queen proud). The nail polish was chewed and worn. So I thought any 16-20 yr old male could dress easily and fit right in.

Then I started looking at the mothers. Theses are the people that many of our sisters here want to emulate. Throw out those skirts honey and buy badly fitting jeans, sweats or appliqued capris. Get blouses that are are so baggy you look like a balloon or so tight the button across your chest looks like the smiley who is shocked. (p.s. bras should be one size too small so the girls look like they can't breathe and trying to escape over the top). Dress shoes? Only is they make them in flip flops of have "addidas" written on them somewhere. IF you think you are really sexy have something written across the butt of your sweats. My favorite was "Goodyear". It should have said "Post no signs". Minimal make up except extra lipstick and at least the nails were perfect. The bigger the bag the better.

OK so maybe that is unfair. It was after all an athletic event (and truthfully the men there looked like they were hit by a truck on the way to clothing recycler). So off to the casinos.

Now it has been asked here if we can "Pass" in a casino. Let me tell you, you can pass with minimal effort. Again no skirts but Daisy Dukes seem to be in style on the 30-40 year old crowd. This MUST be matched with either a too small tank top (bra optional but preferred, especially if your nips are closer to your belly button than your neck) or a sleeveless button front shirt (see above). Otherwise wear your shapeless "Loose fit" jeans and fanny pack. Here you can wear your heels (of course it is a mountain town). Make up required. Don't walk like like a woman though. If you do you will be bulldozed by the woman who wants that machine you are heading for. Don't miss the buffet, nothing says femininity like slurping the meat out of a crab legs.

So here is my thought. You want to pass? Don't put a lot of effort into it. If you try and look good you will be made. Save the dressy clothes for the theater, which by the way was showing Phantom of the Opera here this weekend and the one "Sister" I saw there didn't draw a second look from most the patrons.

[Sarah_GG]

:lol:

Very funny!

This is something I've often said to my SO. If you want to blend (and he doesn't!) take off the make-up and the high heels, put on a shapeless coat, a bad short wig, some specs and some flat shuffling shoes and no-one will give you a second glance.

:)

[Leslie Mary S]

I love your writting.

[pamela_a]

This is funny, but very true. I guess what you're really trying to say is Mrs. Cleaver has left the building.

-Paula-

[Sophia de la luz]

I agree with smiles and laughter. So true that our interest in femininity is not always reflective of how women present themselves.

[lisalove]

I agree with all you have written. Women just don't care how they look any more. What Not To Wear is a great testimony to that.
I prefer to go shopping on Sundays, That's the best day to see some women put any effort into their appearence.
It's a shame really, to me women are some of the most beautiful creatures on earth, then I look around and see blite everywhere.

[deja true]

Well...you did say it was an athletic event! Who want to wear nice clothes to a stinky, sweaty gym?

And if I wanted to dress down and go shopping I'd go to Wally World!

Nu-uh! Not me!

Try looking like that in an upscale mall or Michigan Avenue or Rodeo Drive... you will get stared at!

The clothes gotta fit the venue. So..I'll pass on venues that only require clothes that I'd clean the garage in.

So don't razz the ladies for doin' what guys have ever done...

:)

[Lorileah]

Well...you did say it was an athletic event! Who want to wear nice clothes to a stinky, sweaty gym?

And if I wanted to dress down and go shopping I'd go to Wally World!

Nu-uh! Not me!

Try looking like that in an upscale mall or Michigan Avenue or Rodeo Drive... you will get stared at!

The clothes gotta fit the venue. So..I'll pass on venues that only require clothes that I'd clean the garage in.

So don't razz the ladies for doin' what guys have ever done...

:)

Not far from this athletic event is an upscale mall. No one stares at these women there either although label envy is more common. There the sweats say Jordache or Calvin Klein and not Fruit of the Loom or Champion. I will give in that at that mall you will find sharp dressed men and ladies. So the gap isn't as wide :)

On the street outside this event, we passed a woman, professional (you could tell cuz she was entering things in her Blackberry as she walked by) is a nice navy skirt and jacket with heels. She turned every head. The guys saw sex. The women saw "that would make my feet hurt, that skirt is too tight, why would she wear that?" (actual comments). To be fair, I did not see one man in a Brooks Brother's suit or tie. So I bow to your wisdom about guys. But why should guys dress up? Everyone knows women are attracted to slovenly, rude and gross males ;)

PS and the only way I'd be in Wally World dressed or undressed is if they drag me kicking and screaming

[Kelli Michelle]

That is sooo funny.

But, typically, besides obvious physical features, we tend to get made because we dress too nicely. At my home bar, rarely, if ever, do I see a gg in a dress or a skirt. Even on the Riverwalk ( clubs, restaurants venue), a much higher percentage of girls are wearing jeans or slacks than dresses/skirts. The mall is a little different. ,but again most are in slacks and jeans. I would definitely wear women's jeans at the mall if I wanted to fit in. Maybe with a short sleeved black top. A few of the older ladies do wear dresses and skirts, but not a high percentage. Football games are pretty much like you described at a volleyball tournament. If I saw some gg in other than a jeans/slacks (except the teens in jean skirts), I would be amazed.

[bobi jean]

Oh Hon It isn't just sporting events,,,,,,, go to a mall sometime......

[Leslie Langford]

Lorileah,

I couldn't agree with you more, and I applaud you for having the "cojones" to state something so obvious and true, yet at the same time so politically incorrect:hugs:

It is probably only a matter of time before some of the more militant GG's on this forum (and a few names come to mind - you know who you are :tongueout) will form a posse, pick up their torches and pitchforks, and come after your sorry hide.

Yeah, yeah, they'll blather on about how men let also themselves go and dress equally sloppily these days, preferring "Wal Mart chic" to something a bit more fashionable and presentable - just as they do - and in the name of comfort and convenience. And God knows, we are all so busy,busy,busy these days mult-tasking, blogging, social networking, texting each other, yapping on our cell phones, doing pilates and shuttling the kids to and from daycare as we try to burn the candle at both ends that we have to cut corners somewhere, and unfortunally, good grooming often seems to be near the top of the list.

Still, everyone knows that we men are basically burping, farting, groin-scratching, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals who can't be trusted to leave the toilet seat down when you get right down to it, and somehow, we have been conditioned to expect a bit better from the womenfolk:D.

[Natalia]

I was driving through the retail area near here today and realized that wearing a dress or skirt would make you stand out like a pink neon sign...

Sadly, the days of women dressing nicely went away with June Cleaver - If I wore half of my wordrobe in public I would be stared at the whole time -

And if I wore the other half they would still stare.:battingeyelashes:

[harmony]

i just returned from a cruise(princess of course)and can report that glamour is still alive!!2 of the 16 nights were formal-tuxedo and cocktail or evening dresses-it was a choice and most people went for it.how wonderfull to watch the well dressed crowd!!

[Leslie Langford]

I was driving through the retail area near here today and realized that wearing a dress or skirt would make you stand out like a pink neon sign...

Sadly, the days of women dressing nicely went away with June Cleaver - If I wore half of my wordrobe in public I would be stared at the whole time -

And if I wore the other half they would still stare.:battingeyelashes:

Given this reality, can what we do still be considered crossdressing, or does it now become a just a matter of making our own particular fashion statement - not unlike wearing mullets (yuk!), hip-hop pants with the crotches at knee level, hoodies, or sporting multple body piercings and tattoos?

[Brina Halloween]

I agree in a lot of places that it would be easy to "overdress". As stated about the professional lady, every head turned. If you dress like the professional, you get the attention which means you have to be closer to perfect to pass. I do go to dances that ladies will wear skirts but, slacks and jeans are likely to also be present.

as for our own fashioon statement, it is quite possible. Looking at pictures of the founding fathers of the US, you see a bunch of wigs, make-up and I could swear I remember plain dresses! When did the fashion change that guys no longer wore them (except for Scottish Kilts)?

Making people wonder if your guy or girl is actually fairly easy. I get Ma'amed in drab every once in a while.

Brina

[insearchofme]

My only comment is; Why do you think volleyball is a woman's sport? Men's volleyball, if played well, is fast, powerful and pretty darn exciting!

[kathtx]

IF you think you are really sexy have something written across the butt of your sweats. My favorite was "Goodyear". It should have said "Post no signs".

When I'm elected queen, there will be a $500 citation from the Fashion Police for being seen in public with something written across the butt of your sweats, jeans, or shorts.

[Leslie Mary S]

I am always tempted to walk up and ask " how much are you being paid to be a bilboard?"

i even take off all the dealership and make and model info of of my automobiles.

[docrobbysherry]

In your closet!!:D

[lingerieLiz]

One of the other threads asked what your style was. I answered that I wear what my female neighbors and friends wear, shorts, jeans, and t-shirts. Few of us ever wear skirts or dresses today. I have a golf skirt that I wear around the house and once in a while for errands, but haven't worn to play since all the women wear shorts. This is true throughout society. I have flown for many years on a weekly basis before retiring. I remember wearing a coat and tie in the beginning. In the last several years it has been slacks and blouse or a women's shirt (yes I do wear a bra too.) Since I fly with a lot of traveling professionals going and coming the dress is a little more upscale but even in first class few of the women wear skirts or dresses.

I too was on a cruise not long ago. Many of the women wore dressy clothes on formal nights, but a lot of the dressy outfits were beaded tops with formal pants. That went along with the men wearing a white shirt and tie as there formal attire.

I don't blame women. I think that life has become much more casual. Men used to wear hats, but JFK made it OK not to. Women used to have to wear dresses to work, but that rule was removed and women found that comfort and modesty were greater with pants. Unfortunately the dress has descended to the special occasion wear. This came up the other night and while several women said they liked to wear dresses once in a while, but then again a couple said they could care less about dresses. These are real gg's. I don't think that I've seen my neighbor in a dress in 20 years or more except for her children's weddings. Another daughter asked to borrow a dress for her mother for an occasion she was going to, because she didn't have anything suitable.

Life as well as styles change.

[MartineXdrs2]

i just returned from a cruise(princess of course)and can report that glamour is still alive!!2 of the 16 nights were formal-tuxedo and cocktail or evening dresses-it was a choice and most people went for it.how wonderfull to watch the well dressed crowd!!

Harmony, you delicious creature, I trust you were dressed in equivalently lovely evening attire?

Martine

[harmony]

yes my dear-i was wearing my penguin suit-tuxedo-since the cruise was to the antarctic!
but -jest aside-i always thought it was one of my responsebilities as a crossdresser to keep glamour alive .a well turned out lady and a work of art to behold.

[txrobinm]

Holiday parties see quite a few dresses among the younger women (college-aged), at least here in Texas where it usually isn't freezing. It seems to be a time when they can dress up a bit. These were short dresses, often sleeveless, not heavily tailored. Legs were bare with sexy high heels, often spiky. My SO and I were at a party and we were in our neo-beatnik black turtlenecks and pants, and we were DEFINITELY the most casual folks there (we went beyond "college-aged" about 15 years ago, but she's in grad school now). I don't recall how much makeup was in use, but I think it was a bit more glam than just eyeliner and mascara (2-shaded eyeshadow, blush).

Recently I have been a frequent attendee at children's birthday parties. The women wear nice tops, often with coordinated footwear, and nice jeans. Athletic wear is seldom seen. The men wear a collared shirt or a nice T (not ratty), and either basic jeans or normal (non-athletic) shorts. Ladies' makeup is usually just eyeliner and mascara. Hair is wash-toss-n-go.

Church on Sunday morning still sees many skirts/sweater combinations, and is usually the only day of the week that a skirt is worn by most of these women. Fine Arts events, such as symphony concerts, have the same dress code as church, but even there many organizations are offering casual nights.

If I want to blend in better, I must get a pair of femme jeans or slacks and some ballet slippers. But my derriere shall remain text-less!

[Sally2005]

There are different kinds of dressing...sometimes dressing to the nines is a lot of fun, but blending can also be fun. Since I don't wear my female clothes enough to break them in, I go for the thrift store. This gets you some clothes that look lived in and at low cost. It takes some effort to find what you need though.

I think as a male, you need to do as much as you can to appear female, makeup, wig, forms, shapewear....no matter what you wear. You can get some pretty cool looks even dressing down.

[Hope]

PS and the only way I'd be in Wally World dressed or undressed is if they drag me kicking and screaming

That makes two of us, and living in the rural mid-west, that takes a significant amount of work...

And you are absolutely right about the horrible state of American femininity right now. It is truly an ugly time to be alive, though we do not have to emulate the ugly... we do not have to be a force for evil in the world - we CAN use our powers for good... Not only as dressers, but as men.

[Jonianne]

.......I think as a male, you need to do as much as you can to appear female, makeup, wig, forms, shapewear.....

I don't like being told what I "need" to wear, just as I am sure women don't like being told what they need to wear either. We as crossdressers don't like being told we shoudn't wear dresses in public, why should we think it is so wrong for women to dress as they please. Such hypocrisy.

[Sarah_GG]

I don't like being told what I "need" to wear, just as I am sure women don't like being told what they need to wear either. We as crossdressers don't like being told we shoudn't wear dresses in public, why should we think it is so wrong for women to dress as they please. Such hypocrisy.

:)

Thanks Jonianne! I couldn't have put it better myself!

:hugs:

[Sheila]

Crossdressers.com > Rules/FAQ > Forum Rules and Guidelines
This forum is for adults, however any content must not be offensive or in bad taste.
Rights of Content
Posts or threads ridiculing other members or the manner in which they express themselves, ...................This includes any complaint about the way females, males, transgendered, or any other cross-section of the membership dress,

I may be wrong but I feel this thread breaches this rule from the original poster right through... so once again I find myself being hauled back in to the M2F section to defend those not here to defend thenselves ............ how sad is it that those some of you CDERS who are choosing to emulate Women who do not actually exist, on a day to day basis,except in your minds at least (yest we dress as we deem appropriate for the events we choose/have to do)



Yeah, yeah, they'll blather on about how men let also themselves go and dress equally sloppily these days, preferring "Wal Mart chic" to something a bit more fashionable and presentable - just as they do - and in the name of comfort and convenience. And God knows, we are all so busy,busy,busy these days mult-tasking, blogging, social networking, texting each other, yapping on our cell phones, doing pilates and shuttling the kids to and from daycare as we try to burn the candle at both ends that we have to cut corners somewhere, and unfortunally, good grooming often seems to be near the top of the list.

Still, everyone knows that we men are basically burping, farting, groin-scratching, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals who can't be trusted to leave the toilet seat down when you get right down to it, and somehow, we have been conditioned to expect a bit better from the womenfolk:D.

You know you as males have done the conditioning as you yourself have said
everyone knows that we men are basically burping, farting, groin-scratching, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals who can't be trusted to leave the toilet seat down .



It is probably only a matter of time before some of the more militant GG's on this forum (and a few names come to mind - you know who you are :tongueout) will form a posse, pick up their torches and pitchforks, and come after your sorry hide..
You know I am one of the militant GG's of whom you speak ( and yes I know I said that in the visitor message I left you)................ but you know what if you view a GG ho dares to question a MALE on his points of view as being militant then so be it "I AM A MILITANT AND PROUD TO BE SO" . ... Pity there are not more males ready to openly defend your rights to dress as you please publicly, instead of sitting behind a computer and berating women for their dress sense and choice.... and further more I DO NOT THINK LORILEAH HAS A SORRY A$$ ............ IN fact I THINK SHE HAS A VERY CUTE A$$ :battingeyelashes::o:D

And if you are looking for woman to dress up to satisfy what you view woman as, then we have the same damn right not to have to look at a slob with 3 days growth, scratching their bA$$ and picking their nose as you quote
....(.... so severyone knows that we men are basically burping, farting, groin-scratching, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals who can't be trusted to leave the toilet seat down )so shape up, sort yourselves aout and maybe we will do the same in return .... but why the HE*L should we dress to please a slob :eek:.............. or is that the one way stree senario playing again:Angry3::Angry3:


And by the Way..................... I AM BACK .............. no holds barred ......:devil::devil::devil:

[beenherelongtime]

Sheila, i got lost in your post. It has been a while since I have dressed, but when I worked, it was normal to see women in skirts and blouses or blouses and pants, some plain some fancy,( thinking lingerie tops) all neatly done.

I do not think the posters on this thread were criticizing the people on this forum, but just mentioning how dressing (not cding) has changed. I am retired now and living on a golf course in florida. i would be amazed to see anyone in a dress, although when i went to a dance at the club house last year there were a few and they looked very nice, but there were just as many if not more dressed "florida casual". ah for the good old days.

[mklinden2010]

Lorileah,

I agree with your observations completely. My SO and I are appalled at the dress and behavior of the majority of the people we come across at the grocery store, movies, ball games, and, yes, even at the mall. Do they not respect the rest of us? Do they think we want to see THAT? Yuck.

Our conclusion has been that people have confused public and private space. You want to wear old pants at home? It's your house... You want to come out in public and have us embarrassed to be of the same species? Please. Please, hide that...

It's "cell phone" mentality. A jerk will tell you, "Hey, man, I can talk. It's a public space!" Wrong. You shouldn't be talking your personal business here because IT IS A PUBLIC space - I don't want to hear you crap and I do not have to put up with it. Nobody else does either. Stop it.

Funny thing is, these same mouth breathers will tune into the View and nod their heads in agreement when someone says, "You shouldn't be judged on your looks alone. It's what's in your heart that counts most!"

Fine. But, how can I see what's in your heart if you don't do anything to express it?

And... What if you already are?

Yikes!

[Lorileah]

:o

First Sheila, thanks for the compliment. Second it was never my intention to put anyone down. I was making a point that too many people here worry about passing. It isn't rocket science, most of the time passing involves wearing clothes and little more. In general, CD's try very hard to emulate the best a woman can look. But most of the time we fall short of that goal. My attempt was, with a bit of humor, to get some of the closeted people to see that it really does not matter.

I think that the majority who replied to the original post were on that page too. It was all in fun, no one got hurt and in a few days everyone will be off on a new tangent.

:love: Can I come out of the corner now?

We all know that most "rules" are arbitrary and silly. There is no real reason for a guy to remove his hat during the National anthem, and several young men didn't that other day. Did the world end? no, but it showed how little they cared about anyone but themselves. The rules of dressing are fluid and change almost daily. The rules of appearance do also. Personally I hate the three day scraggly beard that the male stars seem to think is attractive (Try not shaving your legs and see what the those same guys say about that). I don't get the hat tilted at bizarre angles, I don't get the pant waist around your lower trocanter (That will send a few to google to look that up)..,actually I do get that one, it is so when those same guys in twenty years have dickydoo disease thy can say "I wear the same waist pants now that I did when I was 20" OK now I am dissing people :) Sorry

[JoAnne Wheeler]

She is so right - blend in with what the GGs are wearing and the amount of

make-up they use - we try to look like dolls and princesses instead of real

honest to goodness GGs to much of the time


JoAnne Wheeler

[Deborah Jane]

And by the Way..................... I AM BACK .............. no holds barred ......:devil::devil::devil:

Welcome back dear :hugs:

Debs goes to put her crash helmet on and stands back at a safe distance!!!

[Hope]

Funny thing is, these same mouth breathers will tune into the View and nod their heads in agreement when someone says, "You shouldn't be judged on your looks alone. It's what's in your heart that counts most!"

Fine. But, how can I see what's in your heart if you don't do anything to express it?

And... What if you already are?

Yikes!

I can get on board with about 90% of your post... most of which I clipped just for brevity.

I think that what most folks don't realize is that they ARE expressing what is in their "heart." I think all of us here would be forced to admit that the way we present ourselves to the world says something about who you are inside? That IS why we choose a rather non-conformist means to present ourselves to the world isn't it?

When a person chooses to look sloppy and expend as little effort as possible before going out - what that person is telling the world is "I don't care about you - Me and my comfort are all that matter." Which is cool if that is the message one wishes to convey... But don't expect me to appreciate it, or to think that person is a great person (in their heart) for being disrespectful to, well, everyone.

The way we behave (cell phone use for example) and the way we present ourselves to the world say a LOT about who we are and how we choose to relate to others. If minimal effort is the way people want to present themselves - great; but they should expect minimal effort in return.

I find my self quoting Brendan Fraser films FAR too often recently, but there is a great quote from "Blast From the Past" in which one character explains it thusly: "Manners are the way we tell other people we respect them." I think appearance and behavior (manners of course ARE behavior after all) fall into that category too.

[Jonianne]

.......That IS why we choose a rather non-conformist means to present ourselves to the world isn't it?

When a person chooses to look sloppy and expend as little effort as possible before going out - what that person is telling the world is "I don't care about you - Me and my comfort are all that matter." Which is cool if that is the message one wishes to convey... But don't expect me to appreciate it, or to think that person is a great person (in their heart) for being disrespectful to, well, everyone........

Hope, I don't understand how someone dressing for comfort is someone who is showing disrespect for you, especially on their own personal time. Much of the world would say the same thing about a crossdresser. They think the crossdresser is saying "I don't care about you - Me and my comfort are all that matter" and is showing disrespect to womanhood in general. Your defination of "sloppy" could be entirely different from someone from ourside of your circle. In your church would you take the well dressed persons and show them to the front pew and leave the not-so-well-dressed near the back door? I don't think so. Why all this personal judgement on people who dress different than you see fit? How do you know how much effort and means available they may have anyway?

I'm just saying all this as a matter of discussion. Your feelings and POV are just as valid as mine.

[bobi jean]

What a place to hang out.............

[Hope]

Hope, I don't understand how someone dressing for comfort is someone who is showing disrespect for you, especially on their own personal time.

It's not a personal thing. It's not about showing disrespect for ME. It is showing disrespect for EVERYONE, and it is showing a lack of respect for self - though to be honest, I care a lot less about that.

It is like throwing a cigarette butt out the window of a car because a smoker doesn't want the butt to make the car smell. I get torqued when I see some idiot throw burning trash out of his car. It isn't disrespectful to me so much, it is disrespectful to EVERYONE. It would be very easy to argue that throwing burning trash from a car is perfectly acceptable though. It goes like this: I didn't want to have that dirty butt in my car - and it doesn't hurt you if I toss a little cigarette butt out into the environment - so why do you care?

We all inhabit this planet together - and the way you present yourself in public does indeed affect other people and other people's experience, and so they have a right to have certain expectations, and be disappointed when you don't live up to them. People don't have the right to enforce their expectations on others - but they certainly have the right to have them.


Much of the world would say the same thing about a cross dresser. They think the cross dresser is saying "I don't care about you - Me and my comfort are all that matter" and is showing disrespect to womanhood in general.

Yeah - anyone who has ever worn a gaff is not going to make that argument. Also - it would be hard to argue that cross dressers don't put a LOT of effort into their appearance. You see, it's not about trying to conform to some sort of perfect ideal - it is about showing respect and concern for others - at least enough respect to say "Hey - I bothered to put on something clean this morning, and I also took a second to think about where I was going, and what might be appropriate attire for my environment."


Your defination of "sloppy" could be entirely different from someone from ourside of your circle.

Indeed. And again - it is not about trying to emulate couture or any particular style. The point is about presenting yourself to the world looking like you care about other people. There is a woman I know who is Indian, and whenever I see her she is always in a sari or other form of ethnic dress. And it is cool. When I was in high school, there were people I hung out with who wore mohawks and ripped jeans most places they went. And it was cool. Because in both cases - the folks spent some time putting themselves together (I defy anyone who has ever made a mohawk with rubber cement to suggest it isn't work). That is WAY different than the sloppy "I don't care" attitude and look that is increasingly prevalent today.


In your church would you take the well dressed persons and show them to the front pew and leave the not-so-well-dressed near the back door? I don't think so.

Of course not. For one thing I don't have assigned seating. Nor do I have a dress code. But for the most part, folks manage to spiff themselves up a little bit for church too. Even the farmers manage to wear a clip-on.

But here is the rub - while I certainly wouldn't show anyone the door for showing up to worship in dirty sweats and flip-flops... I wouldn't invite that person to be a part of my leadership team either.


Why all this personal judgement on people who dress different than you see fit? How do you know how much effort and means available they may have anyway?

Why all this defensiveness for people who obviously don't care what you think?

Lets not be confused about this - this isn't a question of time or effort. It takes no more time to slip on a clean shirt than it does a dirty one. It takes marginally more time to put on a button down than a T-shirt. It takes no more time to put on a pair of non-athletic shoes than it does to put on athletic shoes. It takes no more time to put on a pair of kakis than it does jeans.

But the difference in the statements you make to the world in choosing those two outfits is HUGE.

Which isn't to say that when I am at home and working in the garden that I don't wear a T-shirt and jeans... I certainly do. But when I decide to go to the grocery store, I change first. It takes 2 minutes.

Honestly, at the end of the discussion, it isn't so much about the clothes, it is about the attitude that is behind the clothes. When your clothes and your demeanor in public say "7U(K you" I think the only appropriate response is "No, 7U(K YOU." And I am not a fan of living in that sort of world... The problem isn't with the clothes, it is with the attitude.


I'm just saying all this as a matter of discussion. Your feelings and POV are just as valid as mine.

It's cool.

[Elise.Matei]

Responding to the opening post: Bravo Lorileah! That really puts things into perspective. I have seen so many really pretty tg's here that just blow away the average gg and yet they are so hyper focused on not liking their chin or their nose of their height... that it cancels those great qualities they do have that they should feel great about. You, on the other hand are truly gorgeous in all respects L. :battingeyelashes:

[Jonianne]

Why all this defensiveness for people who obviously don't care what you think?

Why am I defensive? I think I have already answered that question.

You know, I figured here on this forum I would find a higher level of respect for women and their personal choices, because of who we are and the much criticism we ourselves have received in life. Sometimes I feel angry and disapointed at what I read.

[Amy Rose]

LOL you are funny.
I agree with you though.I have seen that alot of younger girls are scared(yeah I said scared) of wearing dresses or even skirts and even when they do they wear shorts underneath that is like 2 inches shorter then their original skirt/dress.Though I do understand about other people seeing up there skirts and the protection but I don't think it is necessary to be doing this every day and not take a chance once in a while.With your story here its kind of a male influence that makes the volleyball players look like males its that volleyball is a male dominate sport or was once.If you were ever too go to a volleyball practice you would see that when girls say 'I'm Cold' most of the time the coach would say something like harden up.Now even the females are moving into the males thinking of mind.Its not about being feminine but being feminine and kind of manly in between which looks like what will happen.

[Lorileah]

:)

In all my years of playing competitive ball being "cold" was never a problem, but then I never stood in one place longer than 3 seconds. :)

[tricia_uktv]

As many here have said. There is a time and a place for eveything

[Sheila]

You know, I figured here on this forum I would find a higher level of respect for women and their personal choices, because of who we are and the much criticism we ourselves have received in life. Sometimes I feel angry and disapointed at what I read.

I agree Jonianne, and I appliead your stance ............ I am sure somewhere on the forum there is a post by Tamara about attacking GG's and the way the dress and it being a NO NO ................I will search for it and post it in here.

And thanks Jonianne, from one of the sloppy disrespectful GG's for defending our right to be WHO WE ARE, and like you I to am angry and disapointed at what I read.