Narcisstic personality disorder?

[shannonFL]

Not long ago, I e mailed my wife a link from this forum which gave, I thought a very sound explanation of the complexities of crossdressing, origins and behaviors, to get her to think about it a little differently. She discovered me before we married, ignored it, but back then even I didn't
know much about it or how I would progress. Now she understands it perfectly, and has found her answer in the medical definition of narcissism.

Is that It? All the internal struggles, the emotions, the fear, the elation,
Narcissism? Not caring about the feelings of others? I swore to never keep a secret, and I have not. She has never seen me dressed as Shannon, doesn't want to, but I will tell her anything she wants to know. I love her deeply,
anyway, she is gorgeous by the way, but this is a brick wall- do you think so too?

[Lorileah]

Amazing thing about brick walls is they have mortar points that keep them together. With time the mortar wears away and the wall crumbles unless you re-point it. Let's hope erosion works in your favor and your wife would enjoy the view from the other side of the wall

I will have to agree with one thing, I am a narcissist. But then I am pretty ;)

[mklinden2010]

>>>She has never seen me dressed as Shannon, doesn't want to, but I will tell her anything she wants to know. I love her deeply... Anyway, she is gorgeous by the way, but this is a brick wall- do you think so too?

Shannon,

Do I think it's "Narcissistic personality disorder?"?

No. It's not likely. The name comes from someone who was so totally distracted that they couldn't even eat for admiring their reflection all the time.

You at least have time to type on the computer... So, that probably lets you out.

Too bad about the "not wanting to see you" thing. Why not? Does she not r-e-a-l-l-y like you? People can be very adaptable, if they WANT to.

This "not seeing" you as you are is no favor to either of you.

Good luck.

[Berinthia]

my 2 cents has been devalued to a penny, but I'll share one experience.
When I got sick with what would turn into Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, I couldn't work and I was terrifyed, I went to a psychologist, and he agreed I had depression. I thought, well, they finally got me. He turned me over to another psychologist and I had two weeks to prepare an extensive in-depth report on myself, in order of the most sick to least sick, trimmed down to forty minutes, all the things that made me different, including humiliations, personality flaws, I put alot of work into it. After I made my presentation I waited a week for his conclusions, I was sure I would be put through several computer programs, I was sure late night calls to Vienna Austria would be made. When I showed up next week, he had to check his notes to see who I was!!! He didn't even remember me!
I doubt anyone really cares who you are, it's like family, if you love someone you get a blind spot for them. This isn't an insult, my psychologists deals with little kids that burn down houses, stuff like that, if you've got time to be narcissistic, shannon, you're doing pretty good. Lots of guys with two jobs don't have time to be anything.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say what your wife knows- crossdressing is not an asset unless you have a little something wrong with you. People who do drugs or gamble enjoy it, but it's probably not good. We're here because we're dealing with something. Coping. If you were perfect you wouldn't be anything. Do you spend hours gazing in the mirror?

[Ruth]

I'm no psychologist but I understood that narcissism is a trait that we all have to a degree. Obviously like most things it is a problem when it is excessive.
And although the mythological basis of the trait, Narcissus, was a male, it can affect both sexes and doesn't seem to me (or to a lot of students of CDing) to be a primary explanation for CDing behavior.
If it were, one logical conclusion would be that women who spend a lot of effort on creating an immaculate feminine appearance are in fact crossdressers.
So I guess what I am saying in brief is that she is wrong.

[Vickii*]

I don't think it's fair to pigeonhole it as narcissism. Narcissism is:

"a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy."

So, just because one crossdresses means one has to have a lack of empathy? Sounds a bit rediculous.

Sounds to me like a classic case of pigeonholing.

[Lorileah]

So, just because one crossdresses means one has to have a lack of empathy? Sounds a bit rediculous.

Sounds to me like a classic case of pigeonholing.

You're right I am not narcissistic! Yeay! I am just pretty and my mirror loves me (cough gag wheeze). It isn't bad to want to look good and feel good

[mykhelee]

Sounds like your SO is looking for a reason to hold this against you. This tactic has been used by the conformity crowd since time immemorial.

[shannonFL]

I have re-read the medical definition a few more times, and am having a hard time believing these are the traits she sees in me. I definitely am not in love with my male self to any great degree, the other fantasies of superiority-definitely not, obsessions-no, not really. I guess I feel kind of hurt that despite our closeness and sharing she would describe her husband in this way.
Thank you Lorileah, you are, pretty.

[Pink Person]

Is your wife a psychiatrist? If not, she might be a bigger narcissist than you. If she is a psychiatrist, get a second opinion.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

A lot of folks think that we crossdressers are narcisstic BECAUSE all we seem

to care about is looking at ourselves in the mirror and spending too much time

with our feminine personality and all we want to do is to make ourselves

pretty while ignoring others such as spouses and family - there is some truth

to that BUT what these folks do not understand is that deep within us are

urges/desires/needs that have to be expresses BECAUSE they are a large

part of us - failure to respond to the strength of these needs and desires

destroys our will to go on - I truly do not think that we have a choice - we

either let this feminine side out OR we self-destruct - WHY - because it is

a part of our being - we have had this within us since we were born - we did

not choose to be crossdressers - we are crossdressers BECAUSE it is part

of our basic inner nature.


JoAnne Wheeler

[Veronica75]

This is a very interesting train of thought... thinking back to when I first started to dress, part of it was definitely wanting to express the very strong feminine side of me that could not come out any other way. But the other part of it-- the more fetishistic, arousing side of it-- was that as a teenager I had VERY limited opportunities to meet girls, and it might be hard to understand but in a sense dressing and looking at what I saw in the mirror kind of gave me a girl to interact with and, to be narcissistic, adore. If I couldn't get a girl, I'd make myself into one, if that makes any sense at all... I certainly wouldn't have expressed it that way then, but it worked for the 17 year old me.

What can I say, I'm a Gemini, when I need a friend-- and that includes girlfriends-- I just dig up the appropriate alternate personality from my vast collection and put it on. Makes me hell to live with.

[Natalia]

I can tell you - nobody who questions their behavior or how another percieves them can even be a Narcissist. This is not a term to use casually.

The evil queen (my late sister in law) was so far out there that it is hard to think of her as human,

[Ralph]

there is some truth to that BUT what these folks do not understand is that deep within us are urges/desires/needs that have to be expresses

So you're saying, if we exhibit a personality disorder it doesn't count because we can't help it? Nope - if you spend a lot of time (insert your own definition of "a lot") admiring yourself in front of the mirror, you've got a problem with narcissism and saying "I can't help it because I've got these URGES" doesn't make it any less of a problem for people who wish you would spend more time looking at them than at yourself. And I hasten to add that's not exclusive to CDers; plenty of GGs cross the line between "caring about being presentable" and "it's all about ME!" as well.

That said, you can't just write off all CDers as narcissistic (OR driven by fetish, OR gay, OR whatever). Like the rest of the general population, we're all different and we're all driven by different urges. Some folks float their boat with long hours in front of a mirror or taking (and showing) lots of pictures, some just like the feel of something warm and soft wrapped around their bodies, some like the thrill of being called "ma'am" in public, some want to eradicate all traces of their male selves permanently.

To put it another way - everyone who ever makes any kind of a sweeping generalization is a complete idiot.

ralph

[docrobbysherry]

We're WAY TOO busy lookin' hot, sexy, or simply stunning, to be narcissists!:daydreaming:

And anyone that thinks we AREN'T gorgeous, well, who cares about them anyway?:Angry3:

Oops! Got to go redo my eyeshadow!:devil:

[Satrana]

Narcissism? Not caring about the feelings of others?
Hell no. Quite the opposite, we get paranoid about what others will think about us so we end up sacrificing our own happiness by hiding in the closet. The thought that our SOs will think less of us if they find out is a major fear. CDs generally have low self-esteem issues, hardly the catalyst for narcissism.

Does every woman who likes to feel pretty and check themselves out in mirrors also have a personality disorder? And how does your wife explain how CDs became narcissistic about female appearance and behavior? She needs to rethink cause and effect.

I would be seriously worried if my wife thought my dressing was a disorder. I am not sick nor do I want want any cures or treatments. To me your wife is in denial about her own feelings towards crossdressing. It is the socially induced prejudices within her that makes her think this way.

Still I give her credit for finding a more novel excuse to deflect the discussion away the real issues.

[Marshchild]

...as there's definitely a strong "look at me everyone!" element to my own CDing. The fact that I brazenly defy deeply-ingrained taboos by dressing the way I do also suggests a certain arrogance on my part, for I'm effectively saying that I'm a better authority on how I should dress than the rest of society. Still, even if I discovered I did fit the clinical definition of a narcissist, it probably wouldn't bother me too much, as I figure it'd put me in good company... with people such as Saparmurat Niyazov, the lovable former dictator of Turkmenistan! Such was this man's narcissism that he effectively attempted to rebuild his country in his own image, filling it with portraits and statues of himself (the most famous/notorious a giant gold-plated one in the capital Ashgabat, which revolved continuously so as to always face the sun); renaming many of the days of the week, and months of the year, after himself and other members of his family; passing a seemingly endless succession of zany decrees; and, most bizarrely of all, seeking to have built a giant ice palace, in a country where the summer temperatures frequently exceed fifty degrees Centigrade (no King Canute he!). What ambition! What genius! Seriously, who would not want to have others effectively compare them to someone like that?

[shannonFL]

Still I give her credit for finding a more novel excuse to deflect the discussion away the real issues.[/QUOTE]

Wow. Right on. Cannot say thank you loud enough for the knowledge and understanding. Maybe I should be grateful for the tolerance, but when does the anxiety go away for instance, when UPS delivers a package for me (Shannon) and she is home? What about all the stupid and funny stuff that has happened over the years nurturing the female me that I wish I could share with my partner? Patience, yes, but it has been almost two decades, and I have to ask is this all there is and where am I going?

[Satrana]

Ouch! after two decades then yes this is all there is. Your wife has devised her own coping mechanism which works for her. She will not want to abandon the comfort of the routine you guys have established around your dressing. She is not interested in learning the real reasons behind crossdressing because she is not interested in revising or advancing her tolerance towards acceptance.

The onus is on you to make this situation progress, to push her gently from her comfort zone and test new boundaries. She will undoubtedly complain vehemently so be prepared for new fights. The alternative is to resign yourself that nothing will change for the rest of your lives together.

I personally feel it is very unfair for a SO to exclude and ignore an important part of who you are over such a long period of time. It makes a mockery of central tenets of relationships such as love, understanding and support.

[Veronica75]

I personally feel it is very unfair for a SO to exclude and ignore an important part of who you are over such a long period of time. It makes a mockery of central tenets of relationships such as love, understanding and support.

Of course everyone has their own (equally legitimate) opinions on things, but if you take CDing out of the equation and insert any number of other activities or hobbies that are more (or less) socially acceptable, couples "exclude and ignore" important aspects of their SOs every day... some guys golf, and their wives don't know a thing about the game or care to. Other guys might fly radio controlled airplanes or play XBox games or whatever else that their spouse finds silly, stupid, or otherwise unimportant.

Most married couples I know have some form of "modus vivendi" where each one lives with the oddities or shortcomings of the other, sometimes ignoring them, sometimes choosing to remain blissfully unaware of them, but giving each other the space and the freedom to have parts of their lives distinct and separate from the marriage. It ain't Cinderella's castle, but it's how most people I know seem to live. For those who share every aspect of themselves and their lives with their SO, that's wonderful, and I wish you every happiness.

Of course, I'm talking from the perspective of a happpily closeted CDer who wishes to remain that way, with a wife who has let it be known that I have the freedom to pursue my odd hobbies (though she is not specifically aware of the CDing) as long as she doesn't need to get involved or know anything about them. For those married people who feel truly transgendered or need to express their femininity more completely and in a less compartmentalized way, it's an entirely different story.

[CharleneT]

I do not think that we are all suffering from that disorder. I would have to say that we do tend to tread close to that line though, and that it would be pretty easy to sway over for the average CD'er. Moderation and no problem, deep pink fog; maybe problem.

[MissConstrued]

everyone who ever makes any kind of a sweeping generalization is a complete idiot.



Everyone? Isn't that a sweeping generalization? :D

[Karren H]

Sounds like something that you should be instatutionalized for!! Why is it that when ever anyone wants to explain us they assume we are sick??

Personally I just like to look pretty?? That's pretty not pretty sick!! Lol.

[Lisa Golightly]

I think this is an interesting spin...

http://www.freud.org.uk/narcissism.html

[Satrana]

but if you take CDing out of the equation and insert any number of other activities or hobbies that are more (or less) socially acceptable, couples "exclude and ignore" important aspects of their SOs every day... some guys golf, and their wives don't know a thing about the game or care to.

But you are comparing apples and oranges here, hobbies against the need to express inner feelings, and in doing so you are also comparing personal preferences/dislikes for certain hobbies against prejudice that men should not display any femininity. So that is a double whammy of wrong comparisons.

Lets say a wife hates her husband playing golf, a pointless, boring pursuit that takes up far too much time etc.
Would the wife be too scared to tell her friends about her husband playing golf?
Would the wife insist that she never see any golf clubs or golf clothing and these be hidden away in a place she would never stumble across?
Would the wife insist her husband pretends he never plays golf, insist that it is never discussed or watched on TV, insist that he does not associate himself with or chat to other golfers?
Would the wife, if agreeable that her husband does have a right to play golf, insist she has a right to tell him where, when and how he will play golf.

This could be an exhaustive list but I am sure you get the point. There is a major difference between disliking a hobby or interest and preferring not to get involved against hating something because you think it is wrong and then either pretending it does not exist or exerting near total control over it.

These later behaviors are control mechanisms which can be adopted in the short term to give the wife time and space to learn, ponder and make adjustments. They are not solutions. They do not tackle the underlying issues and so should not be carried on indefinitely because that condemns the relationship to an impasse where both parties are still hurting without resolution.

[Elise.Matei]

...Is that It? All the internal struggles, the emotions, the fear, the elation, Narcissism?

...I love her deeply, anyway, she is gorgeous by the way, but this is a brick wall- do you think so too?

U answered ur own question. IF there truly IS a sense of internal struggling wrt your gender identification that is ameliorated when you allow yourself free expression as the female you feel yourself to be, then I would say no, it is not simple narcissism. Only u know that. If on the other hand its just something u like to do for, say, sexual reasons, then it falls more in the domain of "recreational" sexual activity and - IMHO - it would be insane to lose a gorgeous woman over THAT? The question u have to ask is, if u had to make a choice, between indulging ur desire (or need) to dress, act and be a woman or not in order to preserve ur relationship with this woman, which way would you choose? How deep is your love?

[shannonFL]

Way back in time, early teens I guess, walking through a mall, past the clothing stores, shoe stores, and a wig shop, something clicked, and in my mind, I put together the dresses, shoes, wigs, makeup and ...me. It may have started as a recreation,but progression has resulted in some gender questioning. I would give up everything for my wife, thats just the way it is, I cannot change that, I also cannot change this.....I don't know what to call it anymore, if could just wish away the angst .

[TSchapes]

hardly narcissistic. If you were, you would not be asking this question, nor considering the affects of your cross-dressing on your SO.

I love it when a lay person goes trolling through the DSM-IV looking for an explanation of something without the training or understanding.

Now if your cross-dressing has made your family bankrupt, you don't interact with then and ignore them, and the pink fog is all you ever think of, then they have a case. Otherwise, another label to control you!

Love, Tracy

[battybattybats]

Of course everyone has their own (equally legitimate) opinions on things,

Everyone is equally legitimately entitled to forming and holding their own opinion. But not all opinions are equally true. There is still a real world outside our blurred subjective narrow experience and understanding of it that can nevertheless be weighed, measured and explored and some will know more about bits of it because they have explored those bits far more and some just guess better than others :)

As for narcissism.. nope. I discussed my crossdressing with a very well respected psychologist I was seeing for CBT techniques to help deal with swift decision making during bad bouts of disability-indiced cognitive impairment.

Perfectly sane with extremely high resilliance but in a number of very-high-risk catagories for developing depression: Disabled, with CFS as the disability, socially isolated, living with emotionally-abusive mentally-ill possibly-suicidal girlfriend, closeted crossdresser struggling not to crossdress.

If it was narcissism i think she'd have picked that up, stated so plainly and treated me for it. Instead I got some CBT techniques, advice on handling the girlfriend and advice on coming to terms with crossdressing.

[MissConstrued]

I love it when a lay person goes trolling through the DSM-IV looking for an explanation of something without the training or understanding.


Or any idea of why the DSM exists. It is for the purpose of describing enough "disorders" -- real and imagined -- so that every single human being on the planet may be "diagnosed" as mentally ill. It's good for drug sales of course, but its real reason will become clear within a decade.

[Lorileah]

I think this is an interesting spin...

http://www.freud.org.uk/narcissism.html

Interesting article. I am wondering now how I can get 10 times the pleasure. Oh look! a mirror! :)

[2b.Lauren]

There are only about 6% of Americans with the diagnosis of NPD in the population. The actual ability to get the proper diagnosis for this and all personality disorders is not that likely. We tend to love to lump people into catagories. If you do this then you must have that, as if we need an explanation for what we do. The world does, but hey what do they know. Certainly, I agree that all of us have certain aspects or parts of the major personality disorders in our make up, but not to the point of them being so pervasive in our lives that they render us unable to function, which is also a major part of having the diagnosis in the first place. Not many things get my panties in a wad, but folks passing around psychiatric disorders like chips from the bag, will get me every time. I have seen the life changing stigma that can be placed on a person with a label like that.

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

Is that It? All the internal struggles, the emotions, the fear, the elation,
Narcissism?

I think it's safe to say that most crossdressers are narcissistic - at least to some extent. I know I am and I'm very honest about it.

When I'm all dressed up, I love to look at myself in the mirror, and then walk to another mirror and look some more, and find another mirror... we have several in the house - more for me than for my wife.

I understand my own narcissism factor and therefore can keep it in check. Unlike the "not caring" comment in your post, I care very much about other people. I care especially about those I can relate to a lot - like my cd sisters. :)

Cding is not the result of narcissism, but rather narcissism often accompanies those who cd. My opinion on the matter, anyway.

It's ok to be narcissistic, btw. Just keep yourself in check. :)

[battybattybats]

I think it's safe to say that most crossdressers are narcissistic - at least to some extent. I know I am and I'm very honest about it.


Actually I'd suggest that most men and most women have an unhealthy degree of lack of narcissism. I mean this seriously.

Most guys disregard their appearance entirely or substantially, when appearance is the presentation of the inner self thats a bad bad thing.

But worse many women utterly despise their appearance or facets thereof and that is truly horrific!

I think CDs are mostly at close to a healthy level of narcissim, its everyone else we seriously should be concerned about.

[Sigrid Cutie]

well all i can say is that i am very narcissistic, and i truly love my self, i always thought that was one of the reasons i CD, i love to see Sigrid in the mirror and in pics .

[Satrana]

Looking at yourself in the mirror is not a sign of narcissism if you are checking out your outfit, wig, make-up etc. CDs do it because we find it aesthetically pleasing and it is different from our normal appearance. We feel good seeing the transformation from male to female. That is a far cry from a narcissistic person who loves themselves, thinks the world revolves around them and believes their everyday image is beautiful.

If CDs did have a narcissistic personality we would stare lovingly at our male selves as well. I doubt if any CD does that.

[shannonFL]

Who I am, Who I'm not, & Who I want to be, thanks to everyone here for helping with the Who I'm not part. Pretty deep and thoughtful reading for sure. My inner narccissist has put up a couple pics on my profile :wave: