How many masculine traits are allowed?

[Stephanie Miller]

Work is over for me - for the day. And I'm just sitting here reading old threads as a cool down before heading home. Now , I've seen quite a few of you girls commenting to others seeking help or advice in regards to male behaviors or actions that GG’s are prone to. For instance: Girl #1 “I’m so tall, anyone picks me out of a crowd as a guy.” Girl #2 “ Well that shouldn’t bother you because my S.O.’s best friends neighbor is also tall and she’s all girl”. (We could insert walks like a guy, thick neck, husky voice etc. but you get my point)
I’m not talking about those girls that don’t try and pass yet are mearly enjoying their fem self with a “rest of the world be damned” attitute. (nothing wrong with that either, to each their own)
I’m talking about those that desire to pass.
Well, yes, for the most part the real GG does get away with it, and we don’t because she only has one (or two) mannerism faults with all else pointing to everything else being genetically female. If I had a real female body but walked masculine, I probably wouldn’t get a second glance, but I have too many strikes going against me already being a male.
Now with that said…… How do you feel? Is there an unspoken goal that CD’s are trying to achieve before we feel confident that we are passing? Or is there some fictitious number of male mannerisms that we must overcome before Mr. & Mrs. Public overlook those that are left? Are some mannerisms better worked on than others?
If she had a voice like James Earl Jones I kind of think Heidi Klum :daydreaming:might still pass. Or maybe if Eva Longoria strolled down the grocery store isle with the walk of John Wayne ………. You going to look for the other masculine traits they might have? Didn’t think so……

[Karren H]

Yeah!! I thought I read somewhere that it was four.. And everyone is out there counting, too... When you get to three then the red flags go up and they start looking harder for that 4th and fatal trait.. I always double check in the mirrior to make sure I'm hoovering around two.. Any more than that and I'll just stay home!!

:).

Lol

Personally I could care less what others think of me when out enfemme...

[Nicki B]

Any more than that and I'll just stay home!!

Hoovering?? :strugglin

[TGMarla]

Walk right.

Talk right.

No scratchin'.

(And quit pickin' yer nose!) :D

[kellycan27]

I think that for me, getting the look down, was my first priority as far as having the confidence to try and pass in public. Clothes, make-up etc. ridding myself of my masculine traits and mannerisms was something that just kind of followed, some by consious thought..sitting, walking, talking, while others just seemed to evolve as I began to feel more feminine. I am not sure if I am wording this correctly....,but it was as if it was just more natural than something I had to think about. My :2c:

[deja true]

Hoovering?? :strugglin

Brit English to American English translation:

Hoovering = vacuuming the carpet
---------------------------------

Them Brits talk cute, don't they?

Me? I'm a 2 1/2...I still scratch a little, but in a very dainty way...:heehee:

[Stephanie Miller]

Thanks Kelly. I really was looking for serious input here. And maybe I should have stated that I really wasn't looking for actual numbers, but opinions on the subject. I deal with so many new C.D.s (newly open about it) or when I go as Stephanie to the universities/colleges doing talks to classes, I try and give as much open advice when asked. Some of it may seem so petty or funny to us oldtimmers, but to the new and scared, they are looking for confidence or information - wherever they can find it. I try and give them information that is not just my take on things, but varied opinions. And the girls here are great at giving it.
P.S.
I'm kind of with you Nicki. "Hoovering"??? Are we talking vaccuums or the alleged antics of J. Edgar here? :rofl:

[kellycan27]

I was serious. numbers? Old timers? i beg your pardon, i am only 26!

[Stephanie Miller]

I know you were serious Kelly, and I appreciate that. Was was infering to the others that were having a bit of fun with the thread. :doh:
And I didn't mean to put you in the catagory of old either. That is reserved for us more "aged" (as in fine wine). Besides, at 26 I've already lapped you hun. :cry: ( I would have killed for your looks when I was your age. )

Now.... back to the topic so I can get a bit of info.:hugs:

[dilane]

For instance: Girl #1 “I’m so tall, anyone picks me out of a crowd as a guy.” Girl #2 “ Well that shouldn’t bother you because my S.O.’s best friends neighbor is also tall and she’s all girl”. (We could insert walks like a guy, thick neck, husky voice etc. but you get my point)

Yes, people are very good at "sexing" people quickly. And women are better at sizing up a woman for authenticity than men are.

It's kind of like a point system, as you envision. Good face + body, you can have lots of other imperfections and be sexed as female. I have a good friend who has a femme face and body proportions (5'7", small hands, small upper body). She doesn't have a very femme voice, but has zero problems passing because the physical presentation is good, and she's been fulltime for 4 years and is confident.

I have another friend who is taller, but has a gorgeous face and a slender bod, and I've seen her get read in an instant because of her walk and manner and facial expressions. She doesn't vibe female.

I don't have a particularly femme face, but I've worked on my voice, facial expressions, and carriage and I do pretty well (better in dimly lit clubs :) ). My own goal is that everything that I have some control over has to be as authentic as possible.

The mind computes all this stuff in an instant. You know when you've reached the magic threshold. As far as the magic number goes: It's 42 :)

[Karren H]

I was serious... But I do think that two things will negate an amount of masculine traits you have enfemme.. 1).. Wearing a skirt or a dress.. Its an automatice "there's a woman" in most peoples mind. And 2). Attitude.. If you have an attitude that projects that you belong there, dressed as you are, no one will give you a second more close inspection... That alone will negate 95% of all masculine traits, in my humble opinion.. Seriously.. Really.. Not kidding... This time..

[Jan W]

Stephanie,

I agree this is a serious subject. I have much interest in this very thing.

Several years ago a friend and I were waiting to cross the street at a set of lights when a taxi pulled up full of intoxicated young men. It was late at night but it only took them one look to notice we were not what we seemed to be. (and they let us know)

When we discussed this my friend said we had too many traits going against us. A natural born woman will at best have a couple but more than that people just know.

Height, walk, posture, size and shape are all give aways. They did not hear us talk so our voices were not the culperet. It was not pleasant and since then I have avoided main stream outings. I am however in a phase of seriously wanting to venture out to everyday venues as a woman.

Your thread is timely and appropriate.

I too do not have a problem with those of us who do not attempt to pass, I on the other hand wish to.


Jan

[Kate Simmons]

I get your point Stephanie but don't we tend to perpetuate gender stereotypes when we think in this fashion? Being "masculine" or "feminine" is relative and a matter of perspective really.

[deja true]

It's really hard to quantify what you want to know about how to "act feminine" in order to pass better.

But one thing I have been thinking about a lot lately is that appearing to be a woman has as much or even more to do with just acting as natural and self confident as you possibly can. Most all of us will indeed have to work on mannerisms, because no matter how Paris Hilton you look, if you still walk and talk and hold yourself like John Madden you're gonna get read.

The big thing is not to confuse acting 'effeminate' with acting feminine. Women's mannerisms are natural to them and very seldom overdone or over spoken. They're just different. To this end, observation and practice are really the only way to succeed at presenting womanish. You don't have to swing that butt around, but you do have to glide rather than galumph. You may want to face people with a little tilt of the head rather than full face on (the typical aggressive male stance). You need to loosen up those wrists and hands rather than keeping the fingers curled and ready to punch or grab.

Remember "To Wong Foo..."? When Vida was camping it up, it was obvious to all that she was a drag queen, a guy in a dress. But when she dropped the act, she actually came off well, despite her size. She didn't change her voice at all, but she did project enough in her inflection and tone and carriage to make a pretty acceptable woman. (Sure that was a movie and Swayze was acting, but when it comes right down to it, so are most of us!)

Watch and repeat...watch and repeat!

[Fab Karen]

Try this when out in public in boy-mode: Ask yourself, "do I pass as a man"? Think about your walk, etc. :heehee:

[shannonsilk]

I have to agree that 4 is probably the number. Of the major facial differences, I think you can have two towards the male spectrum. Then maybe one for height, size, and proportions and one for the way you move and carry yourself. Makeup can help with the first two, clothing with the third and the fourth can be overcome, as well, as Kellyand Karren say.
My makeup skills aren't always good enough, but you have to get fairly close to notice, and sometimes I can be convincing.

[Sheila]

my observations have picked up, it's more about how you mentally carry ypurselves sometimes .... as if you are inwardly mentally saying, please don't look at me, if I can't see you, then you can't see me, some of you hunch your shoulders and look downwards slightly ............ almost as if apologizing for being there in the first place

[DonnaT]

How do you feel? Is there an unspoken goal that CD’s are trying to achieve before we feel confident that we are passing? Or is there some fictitious number of male mannerisms that we must overcome before Mr. & Mrs. Public overlook those that are left? Are some mannerisms better worked on than others?

I don't pass, not even at first glance. Except, sometimes I do.

It depends on the observer, and how observant they are.

Personally, I know I don't pass. Never have. Not even in my younger thinner days.

So, I don't worry about passing. But I still do things that relate more to what a woman would do, rather than a man. Like sitting. Spread legs while in a skirt? I don't think so.

When dressed fully enfemme, that is.

When out with a skirt on, and no other changes in appearance, I don't try any fem mannerisms. But I don't do the leg spread thing either. ;)

As for any fictitious number of male mannerisms/traits that we must overcome, that number can vary from 1 or more.

The first CD I saw out and about, I noticed the hands and knew. Some CDs I've seen/met I would never have known, had I not known beforehand.

Are some mannerisms better worked on than others? Probably those that can be judged from a distance. Sitting, getting up from a seated position, standing still, walking.

[Karen564]

I'm not to sure about this because I'm a TS, but, If your a CDer and feel the need to eliminate all or most of your normal male traits so you can pass 99%, I would think that is going beyond the realm of CDing and seem more inclined to being TS..
I feel like an woman inside all the time, but when I'm dressed as a woman, all my male mannerisms totally disappear, including my male voice because dressing brings out the real me, and have passed 100% despite how I look, I'm not pretty, have big hands, no wig and not petite, but again, I'm a TS..

[Greymancd]

I have videoed myself dressed and walking not sure how good I do on the walking but I have discovered my shoulders are way too broad. So I use hip padding and flared skirts that made a big difference. Hopefully I am getting the walking down. For now though I may only go out at night. Am I a CD or a vampire not sure :daydreaming:.

[Fab Karen]

... some of you hunch your shoulders and look downwards slightly ............ almost as if apologizing for being there in the first place

I have seen some GG's ( usually young ) do this also.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

Get an attitude - go out with CONFIDENCE - don't act scared - act like it is

just a normal thing - as Karren Hutton said, this will overcome a lot of traits -

dress to blend in.

JoAnne Wheeler

[Michaella]

I suspect it is a more a matter of a "male gestalt" vs a "female gestalt." That is, somehow we see the whole picture that adds up to male or female, even if we can't even identify, let alone count, the individual elements that suggest one or the other. Thinned brows signify "female" yes, but how thin? One walk will be clearly female, another male, but there is such a variation in walks in between, and in other directions, that it is probably not easy to say for many people if their walk were male or female if we did not have other clues to gender.

I would think there are single elements that would say male or female all by themselves even in the presence of many others that say the opposite. An obvious example is a full beard; no matter what else is worn, that is going to say male. But I've seen women with some facial hair while they are still certainly female. I've heard women with low voices, men with high, and never had any doubt about the actual sex. Frankly, it's an uphill battle; you can have so many female signifiers--a dress, make-up, long polished nails etc etc--and have it all knocked out by some subtle effect of the shape of the face that just says "I am a man," no matter what.

Given this, I really wonder if trying to pass is, for most of us, generally futile under any but the most casual perusal. On those few occasions when I have been trying to pass in public I think I pulled it off in most instances, but I am also sure there were those who looked only a bit more closely and realized the facts. Passing, or at least attempting to pass, gave me freedom to wear what I wanted, but I was not happy with the idea of having to deceive people.

In any event, I really do think it is a matter of the effect of all elements of what is presented, with the whole being very much more than the sum of the parts.

Michaella

[Nicki B]

Brit English to American English translation:

Hoovering = vacuuming the carpet
---------------------------------

Them Brits talk cute, don't they?

We obviously need a Brit English to American English humour translation, too.. :sad:

[Sheila]

I have seen some GG's ( usually young ) do this also.

Yup and it draws attention, which is why I brought it up :D

[DemonicDaughter]

The best advice I think I could offer is:

1. Don't act like a drag queen! - A LOT of cders OVER emphasize what they consider "female" traits or movements... they end up looking extremely flamboyant (which is ok if that's what you are attempting to achieve but bad when trying to simply "fit in").

2. Don't assume anyone knows! - SOOO many cders give themselves away with the assumption that the person has "read" them. More often than not, they are wrong. People stare for different reasons. Could be you look good, or have a shade of lipstick they like, or have a pimple on your nose. Assuming its because "they know" makes it so you instantly lose confidence and often give yourself away.

3. Don't presume that a trait is masculine/feminine! - I can fix cars. I'm fully capable of programming a vcr. I don't stop to ask for directions because I can read a map. I have an exaggerated walk due to a spinal injury. I am a bit tall and even more so in my heels. Women can have what is considered "masculine" traits and still be a woman. Men can have what is considered "feminine" traits and still be men. Its a matter of NOT questioning your gender that makes others realize... you are what you are!

4. Don't over compensate! - My partner and I went to a local Walmart. She felt she was "read" but not because she looked like a man (she can't pass as one even when she tries!) but because she was OVER dressed! Lets face it, today the styles are all about living life without encumberments! Clothes are meant to be for "ease" not style anymore. Men aren't walking around in suits and tuxes just as women aren't walking around dressed like Donna Reed or Ginger Rogers anymore. The more relaxed and "natural" you look, the more you blend in and the less you will be read.

5. Empower! - I've been mistaken as a man on a few occasions. Not because of my looks but because of my attitude. Its presumed that because I show no fear or because I'm a rather "take charge" sort of person that I'm "masculine". But most of the women I've ever admired (and its true throughout those considered great women in history), were very "take charge" and always went outside the social definitions and roles of women. I see it as great opportunity for a transgendered person to keep blurring those gender lines and allowing themselves to be more accepted socially.

There just a few of my thoughts. I hope they help. :)